Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gardianz Mar 06, 2009 10:10:42	Hi, I'm new here nice to meet you. I'm starting a campaign (well rather my previous character died because of a terrible deck of cards: a demon showed up after I drew my first card and locked me up in hell...). Anyways my DM said I could start a lvl 15 character with 110k gold. I'm looking to make a more combat oriented monk. I've searched the forums for interesting information, but my DM doesn't allow for alot of books (I found alot of psionics based builds but I can't use that). Here is what I can use (in addition to the obvious DMG and PHB): - Draconomicon - Completes (except for champion, we don't have it in french and he doesn't trust my translations :D - well I could probably negotiate if something is key in there) And thats probably it - for the rest I'll have to negotiate (I'd rather not have to). Oh and he already agreed to let me take Improved Natural Attack. Here is the table I got (very nice scores compared to what I'm used to) 17 16 15 13 15 9 +3 from levels (haven't distributed them yet). I can choose what number to give to what stat. What I was thinking about was making a monk/initiate of the draconic mysteries (draconomicon). I'm not sure how many levels of each. I was thinking Monk 11/ Idm 4. (Or monk 5/ Idm 10? is transforming into a dragon worth it?) As for equipement, here is my initial selection: 750 - Wand of Enlarge person 13k - Monk Belt 16k - Cape of Resistance +4 16k - Bracers of armor +4 16k - Dex Gloves +4 24k - Ring of strength +4 (the rule for getting an item not for the usual location is normal price * 1.5) 24k - Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 As for feats, I don't really know (apart from improved natural attack, and the 2 feats for the prestige class). This is my first attempt at a monk, so I'm sure there is stuff I could improve. Any input would be welcome.
#2 keyes2k4 Mar 06, 2009 10:45:06	IDM 10 for turning into a dragon sounds like a better bet than monk 11 IDM 4 because as a dragon, you'll be able to overcome one of the monk's primary weaknesses, his inability to fly. I must add that I am not familiar with the PrC features and don't have access to my books from where I sit, though, so I'll have to get back to you on that. Another feat you may want to try to finagle is Superior Unarmed Strike (from book of the nine swords), which will nab you another 4 levels of monk unarmed strike damage. Also look into improved tougness (its in either CW, BoNS, or PHBII, I don't remember), which will nab you bonus HP equal to your HD, with the only Prereq being a con of ~13 (again, sorry I can't remember). Are you going to try and focus on tripping, grappling, charging, or disarming? Monks are great at choosing one of these and doing it well. I'm also curious as to what race you were looking into. The feral template (pretty sure this is in the MM) will nab you a bunch of good stuff at a +2 LA (pounce is on the list!). Also look at savage species for necklace of natural attacks, to apply weapon mods to your fists (or just get them enchanted, although the rules for that is in yet another book).
#3 phaedrusxy Mar 06, 2009 10:54:24	Are you going to try and focus on tripping, grappling, charging, or disarming? Monks are great at choosing one of these and doing it well. They can actually be good at all of those. :D They all center around having a high Strength. You're probably better off focusing on a couple though, because you probably won't have enough feats to excel at all of them. I think focusing on two is a good idea, though, as then you're not a 1-trick pony. I'm also curious as to what race you were looking into. The feral template (pretty sure this is in the MM) will nab you a bunch of good stuff at a +2 LA (pounce is on the list!). Feral is LA +1 and from Savage Species. Also look at savage species for necklace of natural attacks, to apply weapon mods to your fists (or just get them enchanted, although the rules for that is in yet another book). This is a good idea, if he can use Savage Species (it wasn't on his list). You could also ask your DM about wearing gauntlets. Did you look at the old Monk Min/Max guide? It is old, but it still has decent amounts of useful info. Search the "Handy Links" thread at the top of the forum for Monk, and you can find a link to that and a bunch of other threads on monks. There are also a couple in my signature that you might look at.
#4 gardianz Mar 06, 2009 13:12:48	I don't really want to be a monstrous character (or at least not feral - the description sounds kind of difficult to combine with normal interactions). As for gauntlets, I'm sure that's possible, but what kind of gauntlets did you have in mind? Can gauntlets help deal extra damage? (I was planning on getting gauntlets of dexterity) The thing is my DM - and everyone I'm playing with - believes that monks are very weak because we had a monk before who was pathetic (he committed suicide though, after realizing his uselessness). So its a bit easier for me to get what I want. As for tripping/ grappling ... I've never played a melee character before but I would like to disable opponents with stunning fist or trip. Also, sort of off topic but can I combine stunning fist with other attacks during the same round?
#5 phaedrusxy Mar 06, 2009 13:17:40	I don't really want to be a monstrous character (or at least not feral - the description sounds kind of difficult to combine with normal interactions). Turning into a dragon doesn't count? :P As for gauntlets, I'm sure that's possible, but what kind of gauntlets did you have in mind? Can gauntlets help deal extra damage? (I was planning on getting gauntlets of dexterity) I'm talking about using them as weapons, so you can enchant them. They aren't technically "special monk weapons", and the rules are a bit unclear about exactly what the damage is if a monk uses them. If your DM is a bit lenient, he might let you get your monk unarmed strike damage with them, and maybe even let you flurry with them. And you can then add whatever weapon abilities you want, like Flaming, etc, which is something that is nearly impossible to do to your fists... As for tripping/ grappling ... I've never played a melee character before but I would like to disable opponents with stunning fist or trip. Also, sort of off topic but can I combine stunning fist with other attacks during the same round? Yes. It is just a normal unarmed strike otherwise, but they have to make a save or be stunned. It can be part of a full attack, a free attack gained from tripping someone (if you have Improved Trip), an Attack of Opportunity, or whatever.
#6 gardianz Mar 06, 2009 13:31:25	Turning into a dragon doesn't count? :P True... :D So I could get for instance +2 gauntlets and wear a wisdom amulet which would probably be better (for the stunning dc?). That sounds interesting. Also I find the price for the amulet of mighty fists very high! It seems magic weapons cost much less than what you have to pay to get your fists. It seems the amulet of natural weapons instead of the amulet of mighty fists is cheaper for the same effect, but how many natural weapons do I have? 2 (both fists)?
#7 phaedrusxy Mar 06, 2009 13:54:20	If you want to really dig down into what the rules say, you technically only have one. Your whole body can basically be used for your unarmed strike. Unarmed Strike is the only weapon. Of course, expect a lot of DMs to argue otherwise. :P
#8 Sydonis Mar 06, 2009 17:41:18	Speaking of unarmed strike: if you take Soulknife 5 and take a level of warblade, with the following feats, you can use your mind blade as a monk weapon, which can also channel your unarmed strike and stunning strike damage through it. As well, any weapon in the game will be considered a monk weapon. Soulknife/Monk Feats: reshape mind blade, flowing blade, monastic blade, stunning blade and enlightened warrior. Reshape mind blade with a level in warblade lets you make your mind blade into any weapon shape in the game. Flowing blade allows the blade to be considered a monk weapon, which when combined with reshape mind blade/warblade combo, any weapon in the game becomes a monk weapon. Monastic blade lets you deal unarmed strike damage in addition to your mind blade damage, which means you can deal upward of +2d6 on every attack with the mind blade. This is good in conjunction with reshape mind blade, cause you deal the damage with any weapon. Stunning blade lets you deal stunning strike damage through your mind blade. Not necessary, but decent to do. Enlightened Warrior allows you to use your wisdom modifier instead of your strength modifier for all attack and damage rolls made with your mind blade. This erases MAD and creates a wisdom synergy for the monk, allow you to pump up your wisdom for your AC, attack and damage. Even if you only take 1 level of soulknife, take this feat. This requires 6 levels out of monk, and might not be the best build, but it's an interesting one that works well with the monk. I suggest taking the Cleaving Blade soulknife variant, with the bonus feat alternative class feature. You'll land power attack and cleave for free instead of throw mind blade and speed of thought, and gain a bonus feat instead of psychic strike. Also, if you take cleaving blade with enlightened warrior, you won't have to worry about having a minimum 13 strength to take the power attack feat, since you'll already have it for free. All of the above monk feats can also be taken as your monk bonus feats as well. Throw in 1 level of fighter as well to gain another free bonus feat.
#9 jenos Mar 06, 2009 17:47:17	Considering that the OP already mentioned psionics were most likely out, and many of those feats and ACF's are from third party material, I don't see it as being very easy for the OP to use. See if you can get the DM to allow Tome of Battle. At the very least, the feat Superior Unarmed Strike from there will boost your unarmed damage up some.
#10 thehumandynamo Mar 08, 2009 8:31:43	While Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries does give you a few nice things (2 steps of improved damage, Evasion + Improved Evasion, and 1 hour shapechange into a dragon), there are better choices, especially if you don't want to be monstrous. If you want to focus on Stunning Fist and Tripping (both solid choices), increasing your size, strength score, and Wisdom modifier. My overall suggestion for doing these is the Sacred Fist PrC out of Complete Divine. The class provides bonus to spellcasting at every level (if your DM follows the text trumps table that is set forth in the rules, if not you lose 2 levels of spellcasting), your unarmed monk damage continues to advance with the class, and you get a few good abilities. With cleric casting, you get access to Righteous Might (increasing both your size and your strength score), Divine Power (further increasing your strength score), as well as many other goodies (including being able to use the Wand of Enlarge Person still as it is a divine spell in the Strength Domain). Heck, you worship the right God and you can cast Enlarge Person as a domain spell. In addition, you can cast magic vestment instead of buying bracers of AC if you want, and have shielf of faith to add a deflection bonus to your AC as well. All of this for the cost of two feats (combat casting hurts to take, but combat reflexes is something you'd possibly be looking at anyways). Tack on Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, and then take things like Ability Focus (stunning fist), Pain Touch (Complete Warrior, stunned opponents become nauseated effectively doubling the duration of your stunning fist), Freezing the Lifeblood (Complete Warrior), and Defensive Throw (Complete Warrior, awesome awesome feat for trippers), and you'll have a really well rounded, and capable character. You need items to boost Wisdom, Str, and Dex (con is always a good idea as well). Wisdom will increase AC, Stunning Fist DCs, and Spellcasting. Str is your trip attempts and attack bonus, Dex for Attacks of Opportunity and AC.
#11 jafonel Mar 08, 2009 9:34:00	I think I would go monk11/kensai4. Enchant both your fists with defending property for +10 AC. In theory you could do this with your feet also for +20 to AC, but that is just wrong. Get magebane, holy, and later shadow striking(if you can get away with it) in there as well. Also, you can use Amulet of Mighty Fists to get the fists to +5 and spend all of your Kensai bonus on enhancements. Monk's belt, superior unarmed strike, and ways to get bigger all would be great for this build also.
#12 sofawall Mar 08, 2009 9:42:15	I think I would go monk11/kensai4. Enchant both your fists with defending property for +10 AC. In theory you could do this with your feet also for +20 to AC, but that is just wrong. Get magebane, holy, and later shadow striking(if you can get away with it) in there as well. Also, you can use Amulet of Mighty Fists to get the fists to +5 and spend all of your Kensai bonus on enhancements. Monk's belt, superior unarmed strike, and ways to get bigger all would be great for this build also. If you enchant hands and feet, why not head, elbows, knees, forearms, shins etc.
#13 jafonel Mar 08, 2009 10:13:39	Rule 0. Otherwise there is nothing by RAW that you could not enchant that way.
#14 Bopple Mar 08, 2009 10:16:25	Complete Champion has one of the best monk PrCs - Fist of the Forest. With IotDM and FotF, your monk will fare a bit better than most monks. But I'd rather play Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist. Then again, it hits me that straight cleric and standard gish are better than SF and EF. :D
#15 thehumandynamo Mar 08, 2009 11:23:38	I think I would go monk11/kensai4. Enchant both your fists with defending property for +10 AC. In theory you could do this with your feet also for +20 to AC, but that is just wrong. Get magebane, holy, and later shadow striking(if you can get away with it) in there as well. Also, you can use Amulet of Mighty Fists to get the fists to +5 and spend all of your Kensai bonus on enhancements. Monk's belt, superior unarmed strike, and ways to get bigger all would be great for this build also. If you enchant hands and feet, why not head, elbows, knees, forearms, shins etc. Because they are an enhancement to your AC from the weapon, and thus wouldn't stack. Heck, enhance every finger and toe with Kensai if you want, it won't matter. Only the highest enhancement bonus you transfer to AC will stick.
#16 jafonel Mar 08, 2009 12:30:38	Because they are an enhancement to your AC from the weapon, and thus wouldn't stack. Heck, enhance every finger and toe with Kensai if you want, it won't matter. Only the highest enhancement bonus you transfer to AC will stick. Negative. From SRD: A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.
#17 gardianz Mar 13, 2009 9:21:41	I hadn't thought about kensai... Here is what I ended up doing (I was fairly satisfied): - monk's belt, feat superior unarmed damage and improved natural attack with a monk11/idm4 for 6d8 unarmed damage. I decided to focus on stunning: Pain Touch Ability focus Stunning fist Ki straps (from sword and fist = +5 stun DC) wisdom amulet All in all I had a nice 29DC stun I had thought of fists of the forest but I like being able to go in town and do stuff (like eat), although it does seem powerful. I also bought a wand of greater magic fang (+2 - 8 hrs) and a wand of enlarge person. We had never used wands and realized after that I needed to succeed a UMD check to grow... Oh well :D Its probably not the optimal melee character but it works nicely: with flurry I had 5 attacks that averaged ~45 dmg (after growing), which was at least as much as the warrior. @ Human Dynamo As for magic vestment - I understood that it made your clothes like armor and so as a monk I couldn't use it. Thanks for all the input. I hadn't thought of the enlightened fist class (seems like monk-ish) but it looks interesting. Do you think that any of these builds are playable from level 1? Any low level monks I've ever played with have sucked, but maybe they weren't optimized.
#18 bitznarf Mar 13, 2009 10:02:21	Magic vestment does not make your clothes armor at all, they just grant you an armor bonus to AC once magic vestment is cast on them. And yes, monks are one of the hardest classes to get right. They really are sub-par compared to alot of other things out there.
#19 phaedrusxy Mar 13, 2009 10:58:59	You could have a party member use the wands for you, assuming those spells are on someone's list (or someone can make a DC 20 UMD check). People always seem to build characters with the assumption that they'll be doing everything by themselves, when in reality this is almost never the case.