It has been proved possible for a monk to do well over 2000 damage in a hit, but unfortunatly the rules get a bit vague and it requires so much cheese that any GM worth playing under wouldn't allow it.
Instead we need to be able to push monk damage just far enough that the rules don't break.
From a 20th level monk unarmed damage 2d10, applying 6 size increases you get 24d8 damage (according to the SRD). What is the most efficient way of getting those 6 size increases so that they can be added into a character?
It's preferable that a character can cast required spells himself instead of relying on party members or custom items. It's also best not to use anything that causes any rules ambiguity.
Useful resources are listed a few posts down, here.
The current best we have are...
Using Everything: (7 levels, 2 feats, ??? gp)
-Race: Warforged or Kalashtar
-Classes: Psion 1 / Monk 2 / Swift Scion 2 / Primevil 1 / Warshaper 1
-Feats: Improved Natural Attack, True Believer
-Psionics: Expansion
-Class Abilities: Primevil Form (Dire Lion)
-Equipment: Battlefist or Ectoplasmic Fist shard, Fanged Ring, Monk's Belt, Monk's Tattoo & Gloves of the Talon
Using Faerun (no dragon magizines): (12 levels, 2 feats, ??? gp)
-Classes: Psion 7 / Monk 2 / Swift Scion 2 / Warshaper 1
-Feats: Improved Natural Attack, True Believer
-Psionics: Expansion, Metamorph (Hydra)
-Equipment: Monk's Belt, Monk's Tattoo & Gloves of the Talon
Using Eberron (no dragon magizines): (Limited Race, 13 levels, 4 feats, ??? gp of equipment)
-Race: Warforged or Kalashtar
-Classes: Monk 4 / Fist of Zurkon 9
-Feats: Improved Natural Attack, Wild Talent, True Believer, Expanded Knowledge
-Psionics: Expansion, Metamorph (Hydra)
-Equipment: Battlefist or Ectoplasmic Fist shard, Monk's Belt & Gloves of the Talon
Add Initiate of Draconic Mysteries or Acolyte of the Fist level 8 and the Thorn Skin spell (from Oriental Adventures) and you end up with 24d20 damage.
Lord Kiwi,
Warforged
Monk3/Wu-jen3/Fist of Zouken8/Cerebrimancer2/Initiate of the draconic mysteries4
items of note,
monks belt, monks tattoo, fanged ring, "battlefist?"(not sure, the warforged item from the other thread?)
damage
2d10(20th level monk) + 6 size increases(battlefist, Improved natural attack, fanged ring, metamorphis, 2x expansion) + 2 die increases(one from 3ed level wu-jen spell "thorn skin" one from IotDM 4) = 24d12
Your required feats are, Alertness, Power Attack, Wild Talant, Improved Natural Attack, and expanded knowledge(metamorphisis), and maybe kung-fu Genius, bepending on how reliant on your special monk abilities you want to be.
I don't think your goal is achiveable, there is no way to fit in IotDM 8 in with 11 levels of monk progression AND 3ed level Wu-jen casting. But this is perty close and has 10th level psiwarrior manifesting and 5th level wu-jen casting to help out your goddly damage.
Monk levels increases:
Monk's Belt (Dungeon Master's Guide): +5 levels; 12,000 gp
Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun): +4 levels; 80,000 gp
Gloves of the Talon (Complete Divine; requires True Believer feat): +5 levels; 20,000 gp
Two levels of the Swift Scion PrC (Unearthed Arcana): +4 levels
Total levels available: 18
Size increases:
Fanged Ring (Dragon #308); 10,000 gp
One level of Warshaper (Complete Warrior; must be able to change shape)
Improved Natural Attack feat (Eberron/Savage Species/Monster Manual; requires BAB +4)
Battlefist (Eberron; requires at least one level in monk for size increase); 2,600 gp
Ectoplasmic Fist Shard (Eberron); 4,000 gp
Expansion (Expanded Psionics Handbook; 1st-level psychic warrior power) - may be manifested twice: first time costs one point; second time costs an additional six points
Metamorphosis (Expanded Psionics Handbook) - 4th-level Egoist power
Empty Hand Mastery (Oriental Adventures; requires Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Eagle Claw Attack and Fists of Iron feats)
Sharptooth (Draconomicon; 4th-level sorcerer/4th-level wizard spell)
Earth Hammer (Races of Stone; 5th-level cleric/3rd-level paladin spell)
Stone Fist (Races of Stone; 2nd-level cleric/2nd-level paladin spell) - damage increases according to size (given on table); not a true concrete size increase
Total size increases available: 11/12
Die increases:
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon) 4 (requires Alertness, Improved Unarmed Strike and Power Attack feats)
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8
Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296) 4 (requires Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will and Stunning Fist feats)
Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296) 8
Total die increases: 4
Miscellaneous:
Northern Fist Mastery fighting style (Dragon #315; requires Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Falling Star Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood, Unbalancing Strike, Pain Touch and Combat Expertise feats) - make a ranged attack at five feet plus five feet/character level; either use this ability in conjunction with one of the above feats or choose to do double your normal damage
Battlejump feat (Unapproachable East; requires character origin from the Taer region) - a charge may be executed from a jump of at least five feet above an opponent; results in double damage
Valorous (+1) enchantment (Unapproachable East) - deals double damage on a charge
Sandals of the Tiger's Leap (Sword and Fist) - perform a flying kick as part of a charge that deals double damage; 3,500 gp
Let me know if I've missed any!
Dragontooth (TBA)
What book is that?
And how about adding costs to the magic items?
(Qaetar)
What book is that?
I'll guess 'To Be Announced.'
Currently the best I can do is, I haven't included prerequisite feats for the classes yet....
Using Everything: (7 levels, 2 feats, ??? gp)
-Race: Warforged or Kalashtar
-Classes: Psion 1 / Monk 2 / Swift Scion 2 / Primevil 1 / Warshaper 1
-Feats: Improved Natural Attack, True Believer
-Psionics: Expansion
-Class Abilities: Primevil Form (Dire Lion)
-Equipment: Battlefist or Ectoplasmic Fist shard, Fanged Ring, Monk's Belt, Monk's Tattoo & Gloves of the Talon
Using Faerun (no dragon magizines): (12 levels, 2 feats, ??? gp)
-Classes: Psion 7 / Monk 2 / Swift Scion 2 / Warshaper 1
-Feats: Improved Natural Attack, True Believer
-Psionics: Expansion, Metamorph (Hydra)
-Equipment: Monk's Belt, Monk's Tattoo & Gloves of the Talon
Using Eberron (no dragon magizines): (Limited Race, 13 levels, 4 feats, ??? gp of equipment)
-Race: Warforged or Kalashtar
-Classes: Monk 4 / Fist of Zurkon 9
-Feats: Improved Natural Attack, Wild Talent, True Believer, Expanded Knowledge
-Psionics: Expansion, Metamorph (Hydra)
-Equipment: Battlefist or Ectoplasmic Fist shard, Monk's Belt & Gloves of the Talon
Lord Kiwi,
Dragontooth (TBA)
What book is that?
And how about adding costs to the magic items?[/HTML]
Someone referenced it at the end of the previous thread (see above link) and I haven't been able to locate it yet.
Will add prices soon.
Can someone tell me a brief summary as to what this PrC does (sounds like increased movement), and how it adds +4 levels to a monk by just taking 2 levels of it.
Thanks a bunch.
Make sense?
And a question. I see in all these monk builds that boosting monk damage is a huge deal (understandably) but all these builds are trying to boost it with things like monk's belt which increases damage "as a monk of x levels higher". It's great for lower levels, but monk damage doesn't increase after level 20 IIRC, Epic monk's base damage stays 2d10. So much of those increases are wasted. Has anyone else noticed the futility of this in the long run? Or was there errata on this that I am unaware of?
You aren't taking 20 levels of Monk with a Belt and a Tattoo and a Clawed Glove, you're taking 11 levels for full Flurry and then stacking bonuses on that. The other levels, post-Flurry, post-effective level 20 for damage, are gravy. Which is why these builds massively outstrip a Monk's combat ability, because those last 9 levels of Monk are basically Poison Immunity, Spell Resistance and a whole lot of filler.
Monk11/AlmostAnything9 trumps Monk20.
1 Suggestion to add to the list for a race choice: Goliath. They attack as if they're one size bigger than they are.
And the Fanged Ring from Dragon 308 is on p41 and is bargain priced at 10,000gp.
Thornskin: Your unarmed attacks deal +1d6 damage; natural and unarmed attacks
against you take 1d4 damage.
I found this in the product extract. You can't say much about it from this little snipet but it doesn't boost dice size anymore. Probably more like the Stonefist spells from Races of Stone, with a retrabutive effect added in.
Lord Kiwi,
Fanged Ring (Dragon #308); ??? gp
Costs 10,000 gp.
Improved Natural Attack feat (Eberron/Savage Species; requires BAB +4)
It's also in MM3.5.
Earth Hammer (Complete Divine; 5th-level cleric/3rd-level paladin spell)
Stone Fist (Complete Divine; 2nd-level cleric/2nd-level paladin spell) - damage increases according to size (given on table); not a true concrete size increase
These aren't in Complete Divine, they're in Races of Stone.
Lord Kiwi,
Race: Goliath
Classes: Monk 4 / Fist of Zurkon 3 / Acolyte of the Fist 4 / Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8
Feats: Battlejump (1), Ancestral Relic, Improved Natural Attack
Psionics: Expansion, Psionic Lion's Charge
Equipment: Monk’s Belt, Gauntlet of the Talons, Monk’s Tattoos, +1 Valorous Bracers (Sharptooth + Earth Hammer), Ectoplasmic Fists shard
I used Ancestral Relic to create the bracers, I haven't worked out the exact cost but I suspect a 4th and 5th level constant spell effects as well as a +2 weapon enhancement should be most of the relic's power by level 20 (244,000 gp?).
I don't have the dragon with 'Acolyte of the Fist' in it. Does it increase your monk unarmed damage, because then I can do away with the Monk's Tattoos.
If you want to use more stuff from Dragon, replace Expansion with a Fanged ring or one of the relic's spells (earth hammer).
This way you can get maximum damage and only be large (or possably medium). You also have access to the damage at all times (assuming you have your items).
Lord Kiwi,
Gloves of the Talon (Complete Divine; requires True Believer feat): +5 levels; 20,000 gp
Should be Gauntlets...that threw me for a loop when I went to look it up, no Gloves in the G's
. Also one other little suggestion for the list, is to add page numbers for easier reference for people unfamiliar with the items. (I listed one above for the Fanged Ring and Gauntlets of the Talon are on p97)[HTML]Originally Posted by snb1131
Dragontooth (TBA)
What book is that?
And how about adding costs to the magic items?[/HTML]
Someone referenced it at the end of the previous thread (see above link) and I haven't been able to locate it yet.
Will add prices soon.
It was me. I said it was a typo, it's Sharptooth, from the Draconomicon. Mixed up the name of the spell and the book >_>
never heard of fanged ring before. what does it do?
One step size increase for unarmed strike damage, maybe deal B/P damage(?), one point of con damage on a crit.
One step size increase for unarmed strike damage, maybe deal B/P damage(?), one point of con damage on a crit.
As written it doesn't grant piercing damage, although it would be appropriate. It also grants Improved Unarmed Strike if the wearer doesn't have it. And the con damage doubles on a crit.
Edit: Anything new in the Complete Arcane or Libris Mortis (any other newer books that might have slipped under my radar?) that improve Monk damage?
Also, for evil monks you might want to add a ring of sadism, it'll let them up their power attack without sacrificing accuracy.
Lostone, what is a ring of sadism? You mean making a ring with a continual version of the Sadism spell from BoVD? Pretty good idea, but i don't think is monk-orientated. Right now I'm at 1D8+5 and only a +5 to hit, so Power Attack wouldn't do me good. Too small BAB. Maybe later... ;)
As for Comp Arcane and Libris Mortis, I only have the first one and it has one good PrC I think. Ask Mean_Liar. He S-U-R-E-L-Y has found something. He's my monk-god!!!!
Cheers!!
Each of those items grants a "level bonus" at different powers. They don't all stack with each other, but you take ONLY the highest one. All miscellaneous powers (claw damage, extra stunning), would stack though...
Except now we go back to the almighty rule that "bonuses of the same type don't stack".
Each of those items grants a "level bonus" at different powers. They don't all stack with each other, but you take ONLY the highest one. All miscellaneous powers (claw damage, extra stunning), would stack though...
Bonuses of the same 'source' do not stack, even if they are unnamed, so you couldn't stack the effects of two fanged rings or a monk's belt and another one that's been turned into a headband.
Monk's belt, monk's tattoos and gloves of the talons are all different sources so they should stack.
Of course, this is because they are all unnamed bonuses, and the whole point of unnamed bonuses is that they stack with one another.
Lord Kiwi,
Bonuses of the same 'source' do not stack, even if they are unnamed, so you couldn't stack the effects of two fanged rings or a monk's belt and another one that's been turned into a headband.
Monk's belt, monk's tattoos and gloves of the talons are all different sources so they should stack.
Of course, this is because they are all unnamed bonuses, and the whole point of unnamed bonuses is that they stack with one another.
Lord Kiwi,
Wearing a Fanged ring doesn't give you a "bonus." When you wear two fanged rings, they both take full effect assuming that you aren't wearing any other rings.
Wearing a Fanged ring doesn't give you a "bonus." When you wear two fanged rings, they both take full effect assuming that you aren't wearing any other rings.
According to this, what about a 19th (or 15th + Practiced Spellcaster) level caster with Forge Ring and Extra Rings casting Giant Size?
This means 4 Fanged Rings, 4 size increases over colossal!
Is too much... I can't... I...
Wearing a Fanged ring doesn't give you a "bonus." When you wear two fanged rings, they both take full effect assuming that you aren't wearing any other rings.
It doesn't matter if they are bonuses or not. You cannot benefit from same same effect twice. For instance you coundn't cast a CL 8 Girraldon's Blessing on someone twice and expect them to grow 8 extra arms.
Not sure where it's written, I think it's in the PHB magic chapter.
[Edit] Read PHB 171 'Combining Magical Effects' [/Edit]
Lord Kiwi,
It doesn't matter if they are bonuses or not. You cannot benefit from same same effect twice. For instance you coundn't cast a CL 8 Girraldon's Blessing on someone twice and expect them to grow 8 extra arms.
Not sure where it's written, I think it's in the PHB magic chapter.
[Edit] Read PHB 171 'Combining Magical Effects' [/Edit]
Lord Kiwi,
Right. Applies only to spells.
Right. Applies only to spells.
It does start by saying 'spells and magical effects' although I admit it is a bit ambiguous. RAW probably favours your aproach, even if it hints otherwise.
Lord Kiwi,
It does start by saying 'spells and magical effects' although I admit it is a bit ambiguous. RAW probably favours your aproach, even if it hints otherwise.
Lord Kiwi,
Well, a magical item probably produces a magical effect.
But I just read that section (171-172)...
Let me paraphrase: "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves...More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other then spells...A bonus that isn't named (just a "+2 bonus," rather than a "+2 resistance bonus") stacks with any bonus."
So, as far as that section applies to magic items, an unnamed bonus stacks with any bonus.
They didn't say, 'any other bonus,' which could indicate that an unnamed bonus woulden't stack with an identical bonus (such as one from the same source).
Of course, when designers aren'r careful this can lead to some silly things. For example, the 1st level warlock with +579842908479204 to his Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks ;)
Anyhow. These bonuses are not unnamed, they are each very specific, and they can only result from magical effects. Therefore they aren't entitled to stack with each other. The PhB is pretty clear on this point. I mean, just look at the classic example of Bull's Strength failing to stack with Belt of Giant's Strength. Both are clearly the same type of bonus (magical bonus to strength), resulting from a magical source (spell/item), and therefore overlap.
Still, good build though. Fun.
So, as far as that section applies to magic items, an unnamed bonus stacks with any bonus.
They didn't say, 'any other bonus,' which could indicate that an unnamed bonus woulden't stack with an identical bonus (such as one from the same source).
This is starting to get into the crazyness that led to the foundation of this thread in the first place, with the rules hinging on a couple of words here and there and a lot of room for interpritation.
I'm fairly sure this will never be resolved to everyon'e satisfaction. When things get vague it's time for the DM to step in and clarify for his own game.
This thread should be about efficient ways for increasing monk damage that can be used in any game without relying on vague rules.
That said I supose the 2+ fanged ring trick would work in some games so it probably diserves a mention but I'm not sure it needs discussing further than this.
I'm sure someone could come up with a basic Enlightened fist build that would get Forge Ring etc and polymorph so it could get to 6 size increases (24d8) quickly.
Maybe an Sacred Fist would be better (Goliath + Righteous Might + 4 Fanged Rings)
Goliath : Cleric of Bahamut 2 / Monk 2 / Church Inquisitor 3 / Sacred Fist 8
Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric), Forge Ring, Extra Rings
Gloves of the Talons, Monk's Belt, Fanged Ring x4
...would do it, although that's a lot of pricey equipment.
Lord Kiwi,
But these bonuses ARE of the same type, and are the result of the same magical effect. You only ever have unamed bonuses in the cases of armour, weapons and stats. Well, arguably not stats. Racial and inherent bonuses, I spose.
It doesn't say those are the only unnamed bonuses, and I know that Fuse Arms gives an unnamed bonus to strength.
The section in the book is vague because it talks about magical effects at the start of the section and them imediatly drops the phrase, never to use it again, it just refers to spells.
What unnamed bonuses do you get to Weapons and Armour? A Longsword +1 give a +1 Enhancement bonus to hit and damage.
Anyhow. These bonuses are not unnamed, they are each very specific, and they can only result from magical effects. Therefore they aren't entitled to stack with each other. The PhB is pretty clear on this point. I mean, just look at the classic example of Bull's Strength failing to stack with Belt of Giant's Strength. Both are clearly the same type of bonus (magical bonus to strength), resulting from a magical source (spell/item), and therefore overlap.
by unnamed we mean +4 bonus to Strength rather than a +4 Enhancement bonus to strength. Both Bulls strength and a Belt of Giant Strength do not do add Enhancement bonuses so they stack.
Being an Incectile Orc (+4 bonus to strength) and having the Fuse Arms spell cast on you (+8 bonus to strength) does stack for a +12 bonus to strength.
There is a clarification here on what stacks and what doesn't.
the article is in 4 parts here are links to parts 2, 3 and 4.
Like how everyone and their dog stacks Rage and FB Frenzy, under the guise of them being "unnamed" when they actually overlap (they are the same type of enhancement and derive from the same source).
I'm not expressing it well, but my only point for this particular thread is that all of these bonuses derive from the same source (i.e. the same magical effect), and are therefore not entitled to stack.
I'll go and read those articles again, though. Just to be sure.
The character has two enhancement bonuses to speed (+10 feet from the boots of striding and springing and +30 feet from the expeditious retreat spell). Since they're both enhancement bonuses, they overlap, and the character can use only the higher bonus.
It seems as if all spells grant an "enhancement" bonus, if it's not specifically stated that they don't (i.e. aid spell grants a "morale" bonus). So we could assume that these level adjustments are a magical "enhancement", just like the speed x-ample...
Aaaaah... All simple... how wonderful. I'm no longer all confuzzled.
It seems as if all spells grant an "enhancement" bonus, if it's not specifically stated that they don't (i.e. aid spell grants a "morale" bonus). So we could assume that these level adjustments are a magical "enhancement", just like the speed x-ample...
Aaaaah... All simple... how wonderful. I'm no longer all confuzzled.
Unfortunatly that's not the case
Enhancement bonuses are only those that say they are, otherwise bull strength would say a +4 bonus to strength rather than +4 enhacement bonus to strength.
I'm afraid Wizards where onto a god thing with these named bonus thing but they didn't execute it quite right.
Lord Kiwi,
Like how everyone and their dog stacks Rage and FB Frenzy, under the guise of them being "unnamed" when they actually overlap (they are the same type of enhancement and derive from the same source).
I think this is a great example of you being incorrect. These are very clearly unnamed bonuses, from different sources, and they do stack. I'm not sure how to argue this, since it's pretty clear.
Do they have a name? No.
Are they from the same source? No.
I think this is a great example of you being incorrect. These are very clearly unnamed bonuses, from different sources, and they do stack. I'm not sure how to argue this, since it's pretty clear.
Do they have a name? No.
Are they from the same source? No.
Well, technically I think they both might have little bits which are "morale" bonuses, and don't stack. But the important ones (i.e. Strength) are untyped :D
I think this is a great example of you being incorrect. These are very clearly unnamed bonuses, from different sources, and they do stack. I'm not sure how to argue this, since it's pretty clear.
Do they have a name? No.
Are they from the same source? No.
I think it's totally a great example. Thanks. Thanks for your support! And it is very clear. Except that it's clarity doesn't really land on your side of this argument.
You're totally wrong. Two types of rage DO NOT STACK. They are simply two types of rage (also known as - the same source... ta daaa!). They grant exactly the same type of enhancement bonus (class-related, rage-related, whatever Wizards wants to define it as). No two types of rage bonus stack with each other. Bear warrior and Barbarian?= no. Wolverine Barbarian?=no. The only thing that STACKS with a rage is the Eye of Grummush's wild swings. Which only stacks because it STATES SPECIFICALLY that it adds on to the +4 rage str.
The two types of rage are akin to two separate types of any class-related ability bonus. Like Wild mage and Rage mage. Each provides a bonus to spellcasting levels, but you cannot stack those two bonuses. You overlap them.
It seems pretty clear to me. And to everyone I know. And to Wizards CustServ on about three separate occasions that I wanted to build the Uber-berzerker.
The only reason everyone calls me an ignorant crackpot is because they're in love with power-gaming, and refuse to listen to anything that will be a detriment to their world-crushing.
Well, technically I think they both might have little bits which are "morale" bonuses, and don't stack. But the important ones (i.e. Strength) are untyped :D
You've got me on that point.
Based on the fact that this is supposed to exclude anything that is 'rules ambiguous', surely we shoudn't be using Improved Natural Attack - there is a lot of ambiguity over whether that applies to a Monk's Unarmed Strike.
Quoting Player's Handbook p.41: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)."
Improved natural attack is an effect that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons, in this case, natural weapons, is it not?
As I see it, the description in the PHB cant get much more clearer.
Based on the fact that this is supposed to exclude anything that is 'rules ambiguous', surely we shoudn't be using Improved Natural Attack - there is a lot of ambiguity over whether that applies to a Monk's Unarmed Strike.
It seems very clear to me. The PHB says monk damage is a natural weapon and a manifactured weapon. INA can be applied to a natural weapon.
Lord Kiwi,
You're totally wrong. Two types of rage DO NOT STACK. They are simply two types of rage (also known as - the same source... ta daaa!). They grant exactly the same type of enhancement bonus (class-related, rage-related, whatever Wizards wants to define it as). No two types of rage bonus stack with each other. Bear warrior and Barbarian?= no. Wolverine Barbarian?=no. The only thing that STACKS with a rage is the Eye of Grummush's wild swings. Which only stacks because it STATES SPECIFICALLY that it adds on to the +4 rage str.
The two types of rage are akin to two separate types of any class-related ability bonus. Like Wild mage and Rage mage. Each provides a bonus to spellcasting levels, but you cannot stack those two bonuses. You overlap them.
It seems pretty clear to me. And to everyone I know. And to Wizards CustServ on about three separate occasions that I wanted to build the Uber-berzerker.
The only reason everyone calls me an ignorant crackpot is because they're in love with power-gaming, and refuse to listen to anything that will be a detriment to their world-crushing.
Maybe you should read the abilities first
"The effects of Frenzy stack with those from any other rage ability the character may have."
It seems very clear to me. The PHB says monk damage is a natural weapon and a manifactured weapon. INA can be applied to a natural weapon.
If it's not ambiguous, what's up with this thread?
If it's not ambiguous, what's up with this thread?
I haven't read the entire thread, as it is rather long, but it starts by asking about an unarmed attack by any human not a monk.
Monks are explicitly stated to have there Unarmed Attacks count as Natural attacks. The only bit or argument seems to be that it's a MM feat, which shouldn't count for anything. An Ogre could take Knockback from Races of Stone even though it's not a goliath, dwarf or gnome. It's not the source that counts it's the prerequisites.
It also says that the FAQ states Natural Weapons are not Monk Unarmed Strikes. The reverse it not true though, Monk Unarmed Strikes are Natural Weapons.
I don't see where the ambiguity is.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Can't get much clearer than that. If you can point me to a quote that will contradict this then I may conceed the point.
Lord Kiwi,
It also comes from the fact that the 'monk clause' wording does not say they are actually Natural Weapons, just that they are treated as one when an effect is applied. Even if feats do have effects, you cannot gain those effects unless you have the pre-requisites for that feat, and a Monk does not have a Natural Weapon until they possess the feat, so they do not meet the pre-requisite to take INA.
The ambiguity comes from the fact that feats do not have effects, they have benefits, so you could argue that the feat does not provide a 'D&D terminology' version of an effect, and as such doesn't work.
Feats affect things and are therefore effects. D&D does use some keywords but benefit and effect are not among them. If you need to use exactly the same language in two places for the effects to work together it'd get ridiculous.
It also comes from the fact that the 'monk clause' wording does not say they are actually Natural Weapons, just that they are treated as one when an effect is applied. Even if feats do have effects, you cannot gain those effects unless you have the pre-requisites for that feat, and a Monk does not have a Natural Weapon until they possess the feat, so they do not meet the pre-requisite to take INA.
They count as natural weapons, so they should be good for prerequisites.
As this has been discussed so much in the past I don't see how we'll resolve it between ourselves without bloating this thread horrably. Damn the rules and there ambiguity.
It seems clear to me that it should work but I can see now how people would think otherwise. We shall have to agree to disagree.
Lord Kiwi,
Happy with that, just wanted to raise the fact that INA may need to be removed due to the ambiguity, as some DM's may question it.
Unfortunatly I don't have control over the post with the list on enhancements in it, snb1311 does. I could always copy them into the first post which may be an idea.
We should probably still list the INa and multiple Fanged ring ideas but seperate them into a seperate list of dubious rules that may help anyway.
Lord Kiwi,
Maybe you should read the abilities first
"The effects of Frenzy stack with those from any other rage ability the character may have."
Hmm... well, I guess I must have missed that my first time through the book.. wierd. Aah well, I spose I was wrong. No harm in that. I wonder why Custserv was wrong. I guess I'd better give them some feedback.
So looks like the FB is in the clear, but that means little for this case, as the FB frenzy effect has a specific rule allowing stacking. Whereas the stacking of magical effects of the same type has it's own rule. One that does not allow it.
So I was wrong about the FB, but it seems to support the case that only specified abilities can stack.
Hmm... well, I guess I must have missed that my first time through the book.. wierd. Aah well, I spose I was wrong. No harm in that. I wonder why Custserv was wrong. I guess I'd better give them some feedback.
Custserv was wrong? What a great shock, they never do that :P.
Besides, EVERYONE makes mistakes eventually. Even people who endlessly complain about the paucity of Customer Service. The only difference between us and them is that they are being paid by the official company, whereas we are only fanfreaks.
I have to admit, stacking rage and the FB ability is a poor poor thing. It makes FBs WAY overpowered. It also means that it's way more powerful than the Bear Warrior, since the BW actually replaces the MODIFIED str score with his Bear form Str/Con score.
In fact, it makes the BW way way underpowered when considered against the Primaeval, who's shapechange actually allows him to add a rage score on top of his animal form.
Hmm... well, I guess I must have missed that my first time through the book.. wierd. Aah well, I spose I was wrong. No harm in that. I wonder why Custserv was wrong. I guess I'd better give them some feedback.
So looks like the FB is in the clear, but that means little for this case, as the FB frenzy effect has a specific rule allowing stacking. Whereas the stacking of magical effects of the same type has it's own rule. One that does not allow it.
So I was wrong about the FB, but it seems to support the case that only specified abilities can stack.
Frenzy is not Rage, and thus it is not the same source as Rage. An Awakened Wolverine Barbarian / Frenzied Berserker has two sources of rage (which do not stack with each other) and one source of frenzy (which stacks with either Rage used). You were right the first time.
However, this is the same reasoning why I think multiple Fanged Rings don't stack. It's two identical abilities from multiple instances of the same item. Unnamed bonuses from the same source, no matter how many instances that source appears, do not stack with each other.
By the way, a large number of the items listed at the start of this thread are from 3rd edition. The Sandals of Tiger Leap, for instance, are a shining example of why I hate Sword and Fist's sense of balance. Double unarmed damage for 3500 GP? I think not. (S&F, as printed, also had things like the Knock-Down feat (free trip for every attack dealing more than 10 damage? Sign me up!), the 19-20/x4 mercurial greatsword, and the freakin' insane Ninja of the Crescent Moon, amongst other things. Of those, only the last two recieved any errata, and none of the four have been transferred to 3.5. Also, since item pricing rules were changed, I doubt the sandals, if they even work in this edition, would cost anywhere near the same price.)
Besides, EVERYONE makes mistakes eventually.
WotC Customer Service makes mistakes consistently, from some threads where someone has kept e-mailing them they often reverse their original answer.
I've only e-mailed them one question, years ago, when Forgotten Realms 3E had just come out. My question was why do Wood Elves get +2 strength when Dwarves (who do a lot of lifting as part of forging and mining) don't. Their response was: "Because Wood Elves are really strong."
I never e-mailed them again.I have to admit, stacking rage and the FB ability is a poor poor thing. It makes FBs WAY overpowered. It also means that it's way more powerful than the Bear Warrior, since the BW actually replaces the MODIFIED str score with his Bear form Str/Con score.
In fact, it makes the BW way way underpowered when considered against the Primaeval, who's shapechange actually allows him to add a rage score on top of his animal form.
Well, Bear warrior/Frenzied berzerker should be doable, provided that you turn into a bear first. Which it pretty silly, I'll admit.
does damage continue to increase at the same rate if you have very many size increase? I know it goes 2D10 4D8 6D8 8D8 12D8 16D8 24D8, but does it then go 32D8 48D8 64D8 96D8 128D8 192D8 256D8? is there any limit (other than being colossal+ and having as many "damage as one size large" items as possible)? If not, then it can safly be said that fanged rind does not stack with multiple rings, even if in most cases things like it should, because otherwaise my monk who has the extra spell slot epic feat six times can do 192D8 damage with each attack (lets not even think about criticals, or other plus'). Is this because the rings do not stack (or should not), or is it simply that I am using the extra spell slot feat to a ridiculous extent (and sacrificing better feats to do so, leaving me a balanced character)?
It's impossable to tell precisly how damage by size works. Improved Natural Attack gives those first numbers you've quoted, but there is another section in the MM that says differently.
How they progress after 24d8 is also pretty much impossable to tell as there isn't enough numbers if the series they give to identify the pattern properly.
This has all been argued to death in other threads and I've never seen a convincing argument for which type of damage increase to use or how the INA one progresses after 24d8.
Best thing to do if you need more than 24d8 damage is to get your strength up (search for 'highest strength') or get lots of attacks (probably be playing a thri-krin).
Lord Kiwi,
How they progress after 24d8 is also pretty much impossable to tell as there isn't enough numbers if the series they give to identify the pattern properly.
There are two paterns, each doubles with each increase (one patern of 4D8 8D8 16D8 (and then possibly 32D8, 64D8 etc), and another of 6D8, 12D8, 24D8, (and IMO 48D8, 96D8)). as you incrase in size you skip back and forth between the two. Sorry if theres something I havn't seen or this has been discussed before, but thats how it looks to me.
There are two paterns, each doubles with each increase (one patern of 4D8 8D8 16D8 (and then possibly 32D8, 64D8 etc), and another of 6D8, 12D8, 24D8, (and IMO 48D8, 96D8)). as you incrase in size you skip back and forth between the two. Sorry if theres something I havn't seen or this has been discussed before, but thats how it looks to me.
It's raged in a thread called 'Trip Monkey of DOOM', which in turn spawned this thread to get away from the damage increase arguments.
Search for that thread if youu want the arguments as to what damage by size may be, or be content that no DM would let more than 24d8 be rolled for a single attack and start concentrating on something else.
Lord Kiwi,
i'd imagine it'd have to use the monk level increasing items (and my dm has ruled the level bonus's stack) and the attack size increasing methods like INA. any other suggestions?
The problem is im dealing with a 16th level monk with Permanent Enlarge and Improved Natural attack... And ive tried both MM and DMG... cant find the right numbers, Argh!
Where can I find a complete compilation of damage increases?
The problem is im dealing with a 16th level monk with Permanent Enlarge and Improved Natural attack... And ive tried both MM and DMG... cant find the right numbers, Argh!
In the Monster Manual, under Improved Natural Attack, there's a sequence.
If you are going further than that, IIRC; there's a table in Deities and Demigos which deals with damage by steps, both increasing and decreasing.
If it was only size, Deities and Demigods says, the 2d8 would increase to 4d6 and then to 4d8.
Where can I find Natural Attack increase???
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack
In the text for Improved Natural Attack
I will try and find this table.
Think that size increases due to magical items & spells don't stack with each other as they are magical effects not (static numerical) bonuses. Two blur effects don't stack so why would size increases. However I would consider that they could stack if the effects were thematically different, for example a monk with two magic items that both increase unarmed damage by one step, the first item increase is due to a ki energy effect while the second item is a slashing damage effect.
Since these damage increases come from multiple sources, feats, spells, items,class abilities and the fact that they are not bonuses but effects, Makes it a DMs call on how they stack together.
I would your DM allow a warforged monk with INA to use a huge battlefist with the monkey grip feat or a Kalashtar monk with a Ectoplasmic Fist shard to do the same as above with the UMD skill ?
I am sure that there is a unarmed damage progression table for large monks some where, and it's damage progression is different than the table used for weapons/natural weapons of increased size. Should this large monks damage table be used as base for damage instead of the natural weapons one.
I will try and find this table.
Think that size increases due to magical items & spells don't stack with each other as they are magical effects not (static numerical) bonuses. Two blur effects don't stack so why would size increases. However I would consider that they could stack if the effects were thematically different, for example a monk with two magic items that both increase unarmed damage by one step, the first item increase is due to a ki energy effect while the second item is a slashing damage effect.
Since these damage increases come from multiple sources, feats, spells, items,class abilities and the fact that they are not bonuses but effects, Makes it a DMs call on how they stack together.
I would your DM allow a warforged monk with INA to use a huge battlefist with the monkey grip feat or a Kalashtar monk with a Ectoplasmic Fist shard to do the same as above with the UMD skill ?
I look forward to your reply on this. A clear table would certainly help more than assumptions based on half made tables.
The thing is, that one of the above increases comes from Size and the other is just Improved Natural Attack, which has nothing to do with size, I think they should definatly stack since its two completely different abbilities. But im not sure.
However its is 3.0 so it might not be of much use, it is in sword and fist pg 62.
But I am sure they can be updated to 3.5 with little trouble. Will post the table later on today.
Monk Damage by size
Tiny
1-3:1d3
4-7:1d4
8-11:1d6
12-15:1d8
16-20:1d10
Small
(3.0)
1-3:1d4
4-7:1d6
8-11:1d8
12-15:1d10
16-20:2d6
(3.5) (PHB pg 41)
1-3:1d4
4-7:1d6
8-11:1d8
12-15:1d10
16-19:2d6
20:2d8
Medium
1-3:1d6
4-7:1d8
8-11:1d10
12-15:1d12
16-20:1d20
(3.5) (PHB pg 40)
1-3:1d6
4-7:1d8
8-11:1d10
12-15:2d6
16-19:2d8
20:2d10
Large
(3.0)
1-3:1d8
4-7:1d10
8-11:1d12
12-15:2d8
16-20:2d10
(3.5) (PHB pg 41)
1-3:1d8
4-7:2d6
8-11:2d8
12-15:3d6
16-19:3d8
20:4d8
Huge
1-3:1d10
4-7:1d12
8-11:2d8
12-15:2d10
16-20:2d12
Gargantuan
1-3:1d12
4-7:2d8
8-11:2d10
12-15:2d12
16-20:4d8
Colossal
1-3:2d8
4-7:2d10
8-11:2d12
12-15:4d8
16-20:4d10
Just to be safe.Almost every one of us when we are watching a person punch through 5 bricks on one of those karate competition videos on ESPN says "Wow that was totally sweet. I could do that though, I know it. I COULD DO THAT". This is for you people out there, this ones for you.
Bottom of pg. 91 in PHB.
3 You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
This proves that Toughness and Improved Turning grant 'effects'.
Unless anyone wishes to argue otherwise, this should VERY strongly imply that unless otherwise stated, a feat grants an Extraordinary Effect or Ability.
While typing that up, I noticed a missing ' in " Its ". But that's irrelivent to a small side dicussion about ambiguity and using proper termonology in the RAW.
Haha.(Note: I only read the first two pages of this thread, so please don't eat me too much if I missed some spoken rule about not mentiong this again or whatnot)
Just trying to be productive, too, folks, as my DM didn't let me make my monk fists do larger damage as from the Warshaper PrC (CW) ability due to this little ambiguity. Been trying to 'prove' him wrong ever since (although the DM is always right).
Thanks.
The (greater) mighty wallop spells from RotD would work on monk unarmed strikes too right?
Of course you wouldnt be able to wield your own fists anymore.
And yet, aren't natural attacks always considered light weapons? ;)
This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.
Unless I am very much mistaken, unarmed strikes (regardless of the appendage used to deliver them) collectively count as a single source of natural attacks.
Fang dragons (Draconomicon) "deal damage as if they were one size larger". Useful in conjunction with polymorph/shapechange.
Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) increases a bludgeoning weapon's size by one step. Greater Mighty Wallop increases a bludgeoning weapon's size by one step per four caster levels. However, the maximum is five size increases, and the spell can't put the weapon's effective size over Colossal. Thus this doesn't stack with size increases from effects that change the character's size. Only the Greater version has this special restriction; plain Mighty Wallop does not.
...Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon) increases a bludgeoning weapon's size by one step. Greater Mighty Wallop increases a bludgeoning weapon's size by one step per four caster levels. However, the maximum is five size increases, and the spell can't put the weapon's effective size over Colossal. Thus this doesn't stack with size increases from effects that change the character's size. Only the Greater version has this special restriction; plain Mighty Wallop does not.
Don't effects and bonuses get applied in an order most beneficial to the player?
So for a monk:
instead of:
Monk (M)-> Improved Natural Attack (M(Treated as L))-> Expansion x2 (G(Treated as C)-> Mighty Wallop (C(Treated as C+1))
Monk (M)-> Mighty Wallop (C)-> Expansion x2 (C+2)-> INA (C+2(Treated as C+3))
Regardless of the order the spells and effects were put into play.
-Hawke
which lets you with 8 levels to gain the ferocious slayer form (which increases your size).
so something like monk 11/ druid 8 /warshaper 1
(remember to cast wildrunner from spell compodium), you'll get to be gargantual I assume?
Too bad you can't use items while shapeshifted
for the link:D
Huh guys ? The fanged ring has been updated in Dragon Magic, and it now grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), so you cannot have both the last feat plus the ring... sorry.
It was bound to happen sooner or later. So did the price change on it or just the wording of the granted abilities?
It's impossable to tell precisly how damage by size works. Improved Natural Attack gives those first numbers you've quoted, but there is another section in the MM that says differently.
How they progress after 24d8 is also pretty much impossable to tell as there isn't enough numbers if the series they give to identify the pattern properly.
WRONG
2d8>3d8>4d8
The next will be 6d8 because 4d8=
2d8+2d8 so, if 2d8>3d8:
3d8+3d8= 6d8, then the next is:
4d6+4d8= 8d8 ;)
3d8>4d8>6d8>8d8>12d8>16d8>24d8>32d8>48d8>64d8>96d8>128d8...etc
obs: Greater Mighty Wallop is good for a monk. I suggest you add it in the first page. Greater Mighty Wallop is a spell from Races of the Dragon.
WRONG
2d8>3d8>4d8
The next will be 6d8 because 4d8=
2d8+2d8 so, if 2d8>3d8:
3d8+3d8= 6d8, then the next is:
4d6+4d8= 8d8 ;)
3d8>4d8>6d8>8d8>12d8>16d8>24d8>32d8>48d8>64d8>96d8>128d8...etc
obs: Greater Mighty Wallop is good for a monk. I suggest you add it in the first page. Greater Mighty Wallop is a spell from Races of the Dragon.
I just want to say that I completely agree with that progression, and it's comforting to see someone else reach the same conclussion. I remember a year or so ago I had quite a heated argument with another user (catharz, I think) who was using... let's say, not the best logic for increasing damage by size.
It seems that according to the new Magic Item Compendium, Gauntlets of the Talon have been modified (though whether you're allowed CD or MIC version will probably be up to your DM).
They're cheaper now, but the effects don't stack with the Monk Belt. Still, if you worship Bahamut and use up a feat to take True Believer, it's a somewhat cheaper way to get the same effect as the Monk Belt.
Feat versus gold, the age-old conundrum.
Let's say we have one 6th lvl Human Monk.
Step 1: We apply the Corrupted Template on the build, so he get's one size raise to his unarmed damage, for 2d6.
Step 2: We give him the Imp. Nat. Attack feat at the 6th lvl so the damage output becomes 1d8-> 2d6 ->2d8
Am I correct?
Now when the build reaches 8th lvl, the damage goes from 2d8->3d6.
If this is wrong then I have a serious problem following this thread.... :D
Ok, can someone please clarify the next question because I think I lost the train of thought completely?
Let's say we have one 6th lvl Human Monk.
Step 1: We apply the Corrupted Template on the build, so he get's one size raise to his unarmed damage, for 2d6.
Step 2: We give him the Imp. Nat. Attack feat at the 6th lvl so the damage output becomes 1d8-> 2d6 ->2d8
Am I correct?
Now when the build reaches 8th lvl, the damage goes from 2d8->3d6.
If this is wrong then I have a serious problem following this thread.... :D
Track everything based on Monk progression, then apply one size larger effects at the end (so long as they don't actually make you larger).
6th Monk 1d8->2d6->3d6
8th Monk 1d10->2d8->3d8
If they make you larger (Enlarge Person), then track based on Large Monk progress first, then add other one size larger effects.
It does depend on DM, since some will not allow stacking of things that are phrased "as if one size larger than normal" together or things phrased "as a Monk of X levels higher" together.
Well, technically I think they both might have little bits which are "morale" bonuses, and don't stack. But the important ones (i.e. Strength) are untyped :D
Well Rage and Frenzy do stack because in the actual description o Frenzy it says the bonus stacks with rage =)
Can you get size increases to go beyond Colossal? For example, say that you are already doing Medium +4 size increase (i.e,., at Colossal size already) and then you cast a +5 size increase Greater Mighty Wallop on your fists. Do you go to Colossal+++++, or remain at Colossal?
Question (don't know if it's been asked or not):
Can you get size increases to go beyond Colossal? For example, say that you are already doing Medium +4 size increase (i.e,., at Colossal size already) and then you cast a +5 size increase Greater Mighty Wallop on your fists. Do you go to Colossal+++++, or remain at Colossal?
If your DM allows the +4 in the first place (there is debate on whether a few ways do in fact stack), and if GMW allows beyond Colossal (iirc it specifically worded to not allow beyond Colossal) then you would consult DMG p28 chart to increase the damage.
There is no WotC size beyond Colossal. Colossal+ is from Dcn and isn't a real size category. Titanic is from a 3rd party book.
Also, no mention of Fist of the Forest since resurrection?
Additionally, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Bear Warrior get to keep his "natural" Strength score, then add X Bear's Strength(-10 or -11) on top of it?
:D
Save the Mooks foundation (oops I mean Monks).