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Monk MADness

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
sweeper88
Aug 22, 2012 13:59:04 Im going to be making a 7th level monk. Any 3.5 material is allowed and any race of up to la +1 without bonus HD. THe main problem im having is where to distribute my ability scores. they are 17, 16,16 12, 9, 14. I know im throwing the 9 in charisma. I was thinking about makeing a monk that utilized the feat knockdown. If i do that i might go with the goliath for the powerful build, but other than that im lost

#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Aug 22, 2012 14:20:20
Im going to be making a 7th level monk.

Well, there's your problem.

Honestly, the monk does not do what you think it does, nor does it do its own job very well. If you have to take it, know that it is at most six levels long, so you should probably diversify a bit or use another class altogether.
Any 3.5 material is allowed and any race of up to la +1 without bonus HD.

This fundamentally confuses what LA is. HD are not LA, so you don't need to specify this. (There are races with racial HD but zero LA.)

THe main problem im having is where to distribute my ability scores. they are 17, 16,16 12, 9, 14. I know im throwing the 9 in charisma.

If you're insisting on using the Monk class, the 17 and the 16s should go into Strength, Wisdom, and Constitution (which one gets the 17 depends on your feats), with the 14 in Dexterity and the 12 in Intelligence. You increase the 17 to an 18 at level 4.
I was thinking about makeing a monk that utilized the feat knockdown.If i do that i might go with the goliath for the powerful build, but other than that im lost

That feat does not exist.

There is a feat, "Knock-Down", but that is not actually 3.5. It is from the first D&D 3e supplement (Sword and Fist), which was written before anyone had any idea how to design anything for 3e (seriously, the first printing of that book basically started off with a find-and-replace on nonweapon proficiencies, and the book has pages upon pages of tables that amount to saying "this math works").

That feat was reprinted in the 3e Deities & Demigods book, because a couple divine creatures used it. That book was then added to the SRD. When the 3.5 update hit, it did not rebuild everything in D&Dg - some of the feats were not updated at all. Knock-Down was one of them. It was never reprinted in any 3.5 book, and for good reason - it's badly designed.

The closest feat to it, thematically, which was designed for 3.5, is Knockback (Races of Stone), which uses bull rushing rather than trip mechanics. It requires size Large, but has an exception for Powerful Build Medium creatures like goliaths. Monks, however, are singularly awful at this - indeed, the only class capable of really capitalizing on Knockback is the Fighter.

(For a good example of how to do this, see the Pinball Brothers link in my signature.)

Now, with all of that out of the way.

If you want an unarmed character that works off of tactical tripping, I would strongly suggest ignoring monk altogether, or at most dipping it for two levels (to kickstart a few of the monk abilities and possibly getting a couple bonus feats; if you insist on Improved Trip, you can get it via the Passive Way monk style). I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a possibility.

The best overall 3.5 way to do this sort of character is an unarmed-variant Swordsage (Tome of Battle) focusing on Setting Sun maneuvers. Actually, that covers virtually everything you could ever want from a monk at all. (You get unarmed damage and wis-to-AC from the class itself, have access to maneuvers which give you better options than monk bonus feats, and can use the Snap Kick feat or the Flashing Sun maneuver to replace Flurry). You'll also be more mobile, because the class was better designed. It's also less MAD; you can do this without even touching Strength if you wanted!
#3
draco1119
Aug 22, 2012 20:15:13 Out of curiosity (and to open up another option for Sweeper), how good/bad/indifferent would it be to take some monk levels, then go swordsage (either armed or unarmed), followed by the Shadow Sun Ninja?
#4
Andarious-Rosethorn
Aug 22, 2012 21:50:46 It's basically expected and the easy way to get your Flurry on. Monk 3/X1 or 3/Swordsage4/Shadowsun Ninja 8 gives you solid BAB, full 11 levels of monk for Flurry and lots of maneuvery goodness. Other manifesting Prcs are what I reccomend for filling in beyond that. SSN is a great way to lead into Mot9

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sweeper88 Aug 22, 2012 13:59:04	Im going to be making a 7th level monk. Any 3.5 material is allowed and any race of up to la +1 without bonus HD. THe main problem im having is where to distribute my ability scores. they are 17, 16,16 12, 9, 14. I know im throwing the 9 in charisma. I was thinking about makeing a monk that utilized the feat knockdown. If i do that i might go with the goliath for the powerful build, but other than that im lost
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 22, 2012 14:20:20	Im going to be making a 7th level monk. Well, there's your problem. Honestly, the monk does not do what you think it does, nor does it do its own job very well. If you have to take it, know that it is at most six levels long, so you should probably diversify a bit or use another class altogether. Any 3.5 material is allowed and any race of up to la +1 without bonus HD. This fundamentally confuses what LA is. HD are not LA, so you don't need to specify this. (There are races with racial HD but zero LA.) THe main problem im having is where to distribute my ability scores. they are 17, 16,16 12, 9, 14. I know im throwing the 9 in charisma. If you're insisting on using the Monk class, the 17 and the 16s should go into Strength, Wisdom, and Constitution (which one gets the 17 depends on your feats), with the 14 in Dexterity and the 12 in Intelligence. You increase the 17 to an 18 at level 4. I was thinking about makeing a monk that utilized the feat knockdown.If i do that i might go with the goliath for the powerful build, but other than that im lost That feat does not exist. There is a feat, "Knock-Down", but that is not actually 3.5. It is from the first D&D 3e supplement (Sword and Fist), which was written before anyone had any idea how to design anything for 3e (seriously, the first printing of that book basically started off with a find-and-replace on nonweapon proficiencies, and the book has pages upon pages of tables that amount to saying "this math works"). That feat was reprinted in the 3e Deities & Demigods book, because a couple divine creatures used it. That book was then added to the SRD. When the 3.5 update hit, it did not rebuild everything in D&Dg - some of the feats were not updated at all. Knock-Down was one of them. It was never reprinted in any 3.5 book, and for good reason - it's badly designed. The closest feat to it, thematically, which was designed for 3.5, is Knockback (Races of Stone), which uses bull rushing rather than trip mechanics. It requires size Large, but has an exception for Powerful Build Medium creatures like goliaths. Monks, however, are singularly awful at this - indeed, the only class capable of really capitalizing on Knockback is the Fighter. (For a good example of how to do this, see the Pinball Brothers link in my signature.) Now, with all of that out of the way. If you want an unarmed character that works off of tactical tripping, I would strongly suggest ignoring monk altogether, or at most dipping it for two levels (to kickstart a few of the monk abilities and possibly getting a couple bonus feats; if you insist on Improved Trip, you can get it via the Passive Way monk style). I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a possibility. The best overall 3.5 way to do this sort of character is an unarmed-variant Swordsage (Tome of Battle) focusing on Setting Sun maneuvers. Actually, that covers virtually everything you could ever want from a monk at all. (You get unarmed damage and wis-to-AC from the class itself, have access to maneuvers which give you better options than monk bonus feats, and can use the Snap Kick feat or the Flashing Sun maneuver to replace Flurry). You'll also be more mobile, because the class was better designed. It's also less MAD; you can do this without even touching Strength if you wanted!
#3 draco1119 Aug 22, 2012 20:15:13	Out of curiosity (and to open up another option for Sweeper), how good/bad/indifferent would it be to take some monk levels, then go swordsage (either armed or unarmed), followed by the Shadow Sun Ninja?
#4 Andarious-Rosethorn Aug 22, 2012 21:50:46	It's basically expected and the easy way to get your Flurry on. Monk 3/X1 or 3/Swordsage4/Shadowsun Ninja 8 gives you solid BAB, full 11 levels of monk for Flurry and lots of maneuvery goodness. Other manifesting Prcs are what I reccomend for filling in beyond that. SSN is a great way to lead into Mot9