This guide should be totally v3.5 compliant and up-to-date as of the publishing of Sandstorm. And casually includes the Dragon #318 v3.5 update for Oriental Adventures.
I highly recommend Beyond Monks (Chainmail Bikini) as a great supplement for players wishing to play monks. I can't really effectively deal with the product in this context, since the multitude of new feats and styles exponentially increases the number of possible builds. Basically, if you want to play a monk you can't go wrong with Beyond Monks. Its mostly a mechanical text (feats, PrCs, styles) but they're well-written and balanced enough that I can't single out just a few feats worth taking.
Another product worth getting is Quintessential Monk (Mongoose). Though it has less mechanical elements than Beyond Monks, it has a lot more flavor text and cool concepts like how to establish a school or monastary, martial secrets (abilities you generally learn from secretive masters for cool-but-not-gamebreaking abilities) and some good PrCs.
SECTIONS -- Introduction
Holistic Description of Monk Minmax
Races
Attributes
Feats
On Multiclassing
Items and Equipment
Vow of Poverty
Some Examples (w/ Links)
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INTRODUCTION
Monks are an intermediate class, having the same relationship to the fighting classes as the Bard does to spellcasters. Noting that no fighting class wants to ever be compared to a Bard, it is safe to assume that a Monk needs some help to keep pace with his more brawny and skilled companions. But do not worry! A monk is fast, agile, and in the right conditions capable of dealing good damage and striking key opponents. Additionally, Monks make a great cherry-pick class - in and out with 2 levels of Monk and you have quite a bit to show for it.
The role of this guide is to assist in planning a monk's feats in order to maintain a maximum capability and to minimize the various weaknesses of the monk class.
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HOLISTIC DESCRIPTION OF MONK MINMAX
Monks require planning - they have few feats to use and are generally expected to perform well in combat to some degree. Unlike a Fighter who can 'waste' a feat or two, the Monk has to be extremely careful about what to do with those valuable and too-limited feat choices.
First, recognize the limitations of your statistics. With moderate to good stats, you'll be best served taking several related feats with a few non-synergistic side feats to maintain versatility. With great stats, you can probably take two feat trees and allow your stats to make up for the depth you'd otherwise have by concentrating on only a single specialization.
Second, don't operate alone. You're not built to accept a lot of punishment, and will generally have a low AC and only moderate HP total. If you're in melee, stay close to the fighter-types and hope that they absorb the majority of the attacks. If you have a rogue in the party, encourage him to stick close enough to employ his sneak attacks against opponents you happen to Stun.
Third, PLAN YOUR BUILD. Monk multiclassing is tricky, due to alignment restrictions, bonus feat restrictions, and Monk multiclass restrictions. Its best to know what PrCs or feat chains you're going to want prior to leveling heavily in a class as tightly regulated as Monks are.
POINTS WORTH MENTIONING Be sure that you discuss your Monk build with your GM prior to gametime. In OA, you can swap out any of the level 1, 2, and 6 feats, but it was written when v3.0 had no swapping. With the v3.5 monk rules, there's some question in my mind whether the OA feat swapping remains valid in all games. In any case, ask first: building a monk usually requires some planning, and you don't want to be surprised by a misunderstanding at level 9.
Dragon #318 states that if the v3.0 class adds to Monk UBAB, then the v3.5 version of the class would add to Monk levels to determine the capability of your Flurry. You should clear this with your GM before embarking on any multiclassing with your monk.
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RACES
Monks benefit from lots of Feats, high STR, high CON, and being Large size. Little else helps, though a good DEX bonus is fine to have (though not at the expense of CON!).
This makes good race choices for Monks rather clear: Human, Dwarf, and Half Orc from the base races. Dependent on DM and setting, these other races make for great Monks: (Expanded Psionics HB) HalfGiants, (Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk) Wood Elves, (Races of Stone) Goliaths, (Frostburn) Neanderthals, and (Krynn) Minotaurs. If you have access to Dragon #313, the HalfMinotaur template is a completely unbalanced +1 ECL choice.
Personally, as a Monk I look for high stats (STR, CON, WIS) and being Large. 10' reach and an increase to damage die type are too good to pass up. Basically, I'd say being Large for +1 ECL is your first priority, and then great stats. HalfMinotaur (Human or HalfOrc) is probably the best choice for +1 ECL, but thats usually not an option. Goliaths and (Krynnish) Minotaurs make up my favorites, but HalfGiants are servicable.
The other races are suboptimal choices, and therefore won't really be dealt with in this guide. Generally, avoiding a STR or CON penalty is the only real guideline.
In general, there are few ECL races worth taking as a Monk. Most Monk abilities are level-dependent (as opposed to Fighters, who only gain a feats and BAB rather than abilities with new levels), meaning that maintaining the highest level possible is your goal. Githzerai (ECL +2) give great benefits, but the +2 ECL makes me wary. Monks have low survivability at low levels - high ECL Monks are best played as characters joining at a high level already, rather than starting at level 1.
You can freely ignore this advice in a game starting at high levels, where you can skip the early painful levels.
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ATTRIBUTES
The more, the merrier. All classes benefit from having high stats, but the monk benefits more than most. A high WIS, STR, DEX, and CON would each easily find a nice home with a monk. Its difficult to identify which stat is 'most important', but identifying what monk niches you wish to occupy should help in the process.
First, you're going to want to hit in combat. This means either having a high STR, a high DEX (with Combat Finesse), or high WIS (with Combat Insight from the BoED). I personally recommend a high STR, as the damage bonus is nice as well. However, if you are lacking in a large spread of high stats and want to be a Monk, STR should be the first stat to be ignored.
With high stats, I would prioritize them: STR, WIS/CON, DEX. With moderate to good stats, I would prioritize them: WIS, DEX, CON, STR.
The idea of the high stat prioritization is first and foremost to do a lot of damage consistently (and saving a feat that would otherwise be Weapon Finesse). Second, you want a good AC and Stun Attack DC, but also a good load of HPs. This is a personal decision and I would rank these needs equally.
I personally would not attempt to play a monk with moderate to merely good stats. Thats a personal choice, since I really like to dominate rather than simply compete.
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FEATS
This is really where the Monk comes to the fore. With good feat choices you can save an otherwise weakling wannabe from the scrapheap of useless and/or dead PCs, where a lot of monks can end up if they're not careful.
Bonus Feats: Take Stunning Attack at 1st level. Its too useful to forego until later. If you want Improved Grapple, take it as a general feat choice. At 2nd level, take Combat Reflexes. Its a prereq for a lot of good feats, whereas Deflect Arrows should only be taken in specific instances (such as a character that intends on using Grappling Block). At 6th level, your choice depends on your stats. A high STR character should take Improved Trip - its useful and should give you the upper hand in dealing with some humanoids. Without a high STR, you're not going to Trip very well and therefore Improved Disarm should be taken, if only as a default. Unearthed Arcana has a collection of alternate Monk styles - they're worth looking over for alternates, especially if you need feat prereqs for some future feat considerations.
GENERAL FEATS
What do you want to do with your Monk? Personally, I enjoy adding to the Monk's capabilities that are inherent in the class, building on strengths, rather than attempting to develop new abilities. The most important thing to keep in mind is to achieve a balance: diversify without spreading yourself thin, and specialize without becoming myopic. There are a LOT of cool feats chains available to monks, and you're going to have to accept you're not going to be able to do it all. There are a ton of feats available and worth taking, and that means a ton of options. I can make a few recommendations, but clearly there is no "correct" choice, no overly powerful set of feats that obviate other choices. From the minmax perspective, thats a really nice feature: it means that you're going to have quite a few options to choose from without feeling like you're sacrificing substance for style.
Oriental Adventures greatly expands Monks by giving them a wide range of bonus feats, instead of the ones outlined in the PHB. Talk to your DM about getting access to these, since they give you a lot more versatility with your character's design and capabilities.
Here's a list of the feats by book most interesting to a monk thats generally unarmed...
Players Handbook: Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Stunning Fist, Two Weapon Fighting/Imp TWF, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus.
Monster Manual: Improved Natural Attack, Ability Focus.
Oriental Adventures (OA): Choke Hold, Grappling Block, Unbalancing Strike.
Eberron Campaign Setting (ECS): Monastic Training, Pursue (but only if you take Mage Slayer - CAr).
Sandstorm (SndS): Pharoah's Fist, Rattlesnake Strike, Scorpion's Grasp.
Complete Arcane (CAr): Mage Slayer (but only with a Reach weapon handy or Pursue), Pierce Magical Protection.
Complete Warrior (CW): Clever Wrestling, Close Quarters Fighting, Defensive Strike, Defensive Throw, Earth's Embrace, Extra Stunning, Fists of Iron, Flying Kick, Freezing the Lifeblood, Hold the Line (with a Reach weapon prepared), Karmic Strike, Pain Touch, Rapid Stunning.
Miniatures Handbook: Deft Opportunist, Double Hit.
Savage Species (SS): Virulent Poison (for those using Rattlesnake Strike from SndS)
Races of Faerun: Hammer Blow, Jotunbrud
Dragon Magazine (Dgn): Staggering Blow (#279). This gets special mention as awesomely powerful.
Feat combos:
This is where things can get entertaining, and where you're going to define your monk. If you find that you want more feat chains than you can stick on a straight monk, you'll need to multiclass to pull off what you're trying. Its better to figure this out now and plan accordingly, than later.
The basic format to this is to list a feat chain in order of increasing specialization. At some point in these chains you're probably going to have to cut yourself off from further advancement, simply from lack of feats.
STUNNING FIST: Stunning Fist, Pain Touch (only works with Stunning Fist). Ability Focus and/or Rapid Stunning and/or Pharoah's Fist and/or Staggering Blow. This will allow you to make excellent, reasonable-DC Stun Attacks (insane DCs with Ki Straps) that will incapacitate for 2 rounds if successful. If you're using Stunning Fist, you should be using Pain Touch. The others are nice but not necessary.
RATTLESNAKE STRIKE: Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Rattlesnake Strike. Ability Focus. Virulent Poison. This is a +4 DC attack that does d3 CON. If you can convince your DM to allow Rapid Stunning to work with Stun-variant attacks, then this ability gets a LOT more dangerous, especially if your attacks are Wounding. Tattooed Monks with the Spider tattoo can add to the fun for more CON damage, and a Necklace of Natural Attacks (+1 Wounding or Greater Wounding) can theoretically allow you to hit someone and do 6 CON damage per round.
KARMIC STRIKE: Dodge, Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike. TWF, Imp TWF, Double Hit. This feat alone is worth having 13+ INT. Combining it with Double Hit makes it even sicker.
GRAPPLING BLOCK: Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Combat Expertise, Grappling Block. A great ability unused for its feat requirements, Grappling Block is really nice when combined with Defensive Throw.
DEFENSIVE THROW: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Dodge, Defensive Throw. If you're going to use this ability a lot, invest in Steadfast Boots (AaEG) to stay on your feet.
MOBILITY: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack. Nice for tactically-oriented monks that have low STR and need to flit about the battlefield. The Cobra Strike style variant (UA) gives you this chain in its entirety, at the expense of Stunning Fist, which you're going to want to use with this chain. Personally, I would recommend boosting your Tumble to a really high rank and not taking three feats to pull off what 1 skill can accomplish.
TRIPPING: Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes. Jotunbrud and/or Hold the Line. Power Attack. If you're going to do this, get Steadfast Boots and a +1 Sweeping Guisarme (even if you aren't proficient with it) - Trip attempts are Touch attacks that the -4 penalty for non-proficiency won't really affect. Taking Combat Reflexes is nice with this so that you can harass all kinds of enemies, and attack them as they stand up later. Hold the Line is there because you occasionally miss an opponent with the guisarme AoO as they charge you - this way, you get a second chance to hit them, opting to decide between unarmed attack Trip (see the Monk class description for all the reasons you can kick without penalty while your hands are full) or Stunning Fist attack (again, executed with the legs). Power Attack is listed since the +4 bonus to hit Prone opponents isn't always needed, making it a fine opportunity to use Power Attack.
WRESTLING: Improved Grapple. Jotunbrud. Hammerblow. Choke Hold and/or Scorpion's Grasp and/or Earth's Embrace. This is tough to pull off well, but lots of people seem to like it, so here it is. Hammerblow is included because a grapple is a prime time to use both your hands, since you can't Flurry in a grapple.
MAGE KILLER: Pursue, Mage Slayer. Pierce Magical Protection. Use of a Reach weapon means you don't need Pursue, but you may suffer a non-proficiency penalty for doing so.
TWO WEAPON FIGHTING: TWF, Imp TWF. Double Hit, Karmic Strike. Deft Opportunist. Not much to say here. You can really beat the hell out of people this way. Works great with Karmic Strike.
LordKiwi started a great thread on Feat Combos here.
Feat choices and combat options:
On Improved Natural Attack: There's some controversy on whether or not a monk can take this. Consult with your DM before assuming its available in your campaign. Sage Advice (Dragon #336 - Undead) ruled that Imp Natural Attack indeed can be taken by monks and increases their unarmed combat damage. w00t.
On Grapples: They stink. In general. Imp Grapple, Choke Hold, Scorpion Grasp (SndS) and Earth's Embrace are okay, but in using them you fail to threaten other areas, you're easier to hit, and you have to make opposed rolls to damage your opponent (or take a -4 to hit unless you have Scorpion Grasp). Essentially, grappling is best left to those that can wear armor spikes and have a high BAB and STR - fighters and barbarians. If you really want to grapple, look for the Stonegrind Wrestling style (Dragon #303) and Komajutsu Wrestling (Dragon #309) - you'll need all the bonuses you can get. As a final note, if you want to play a wrestling Monk, please please avoid the Reaping Mauler. Its a pitiful class. The best grappling PrC is the Justicar (CW). If you're really keen on grappling, start there.
On TWF: According to this thread (containing confirmation from WotC's R & D department) you can take and apply the TWF chain to monks. Problem is that in v3.0 you can't, and it was never explicitly recinded, so you'll probably have to show that thread to your DM in order to convince them.
On Charging: Probably not worth it to dump tons of feats into your charge attacks unless your GM allows Pounce-type abilities to be used in conjunction with charge-boosting feats like Flying Kick, Powerful Charge, Hammer Blow, Power Lunge (SaF/GCS) and Leap Attack (CAd). Then it gets amazingly good. Otherwise, if you want to do damage, I suggest using Improved Trip and then Power Attacking your prone opponent.
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ON MULTICLASSING
Multiclassing is a delicate subject with Monks. First, there's the obvious PHB restrictions on Monk multiclassing (which is removed in OA). Second, a lot of DMs don't like it. Tell them to go back to 2nd edition if they don't like multiclassing.
There are a few core non-spellcasting classes that appear especially tempting: Psychic Warrior, Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue. With the difficulties in mind, playing a multiclass Monk can be rewarding. Fighter levels and Psychic Warrior levels add precious Feats. Barbarian levels (assuming you take Barbarian by switching alignments after completing taking levels in Monk) is a great choice for Rage and martial weapon proficiencies. Rogue levels offer you more skill points and Sneak Attack, which may be necessary if you're a low STR monk and still want to be able to cause good damage in battle. Just be sure that you understand the full implications of removing Monk levels: less Stun uses, less unarmed damage, less Flurry, etc.
The Spellcaster classes that appeal the most to a multiclass Monk are Wizard and Sorceror, if only for the myriad of useful 1st level arcane spells available. Taking Wizard or Sorceror as a first class before going into Monk is a rough path, though: for the first few levels you'll probably be feeling the regret. Another way to score Enlarge Person is to be a Cleric with the Strength domain, but then you have to buy your scrolls (and divine Enlarge Person scrolls are going to suddenly become rare if you abuse this) or take the Scribe Scroll feat. Of course, a lenient DM will sidestep all this and allow you to purchase a Ring of Enlarge Person (1/day) for the book price of 1200gp; a less-lenient GM will make you take the Ring of Enlarge from Savage Species, with its 18000gp pricetag.
Generally speaking, multiclass your Monk only if you're going to take one of the hybrid Monk-esque PrCs available. There are a lot, and a lot are good, but even more are bad. I wouldn't recommend leaving Monk just because you want a few extra feats or the ability to cast a spell or two: you want to leave Monk because its totally not what you're interested in playing, or you want a LOT of feats, or you're specifically gunning for a PrC. Otherwise, the Monk base class is where you want to spend the majority of your time.
That said, its worth discussing Monk breakpoints.
MONK 2: You've gotten Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, have +3 to all saves and will always threaten adjacent areas due to your ability to kick the shins of your opponents. A great cherry-pick, but you're not really much of a Monk if you're only taking 2 levels... unless you're a Shou Disciple (see below).
MONK 6: Improved Disarm or Improved Trip, and the slightly better Flurry from level 5. Not the greatest of breakpoints, but the feat makes it worth mentioning. If you're going to take the Shou Disciple PrC, this is a great breakpoint since it allows you to end that PrC with a Greater Flurry.
MONK 11: The Greater Flurry ability. The extra attack is golden.
If you're in Monk greater than 11, you really ought to consider staying all the way.
PRESTIGE CLASSES
There are a LOT of PrCs to choose from that augment a Monk's abilities, so like with the Feat section, I'll list them by book.
Unearthed Arcana: HalfOrc Paragon. Gives martial weapon proficiency, Rage 1/day (which can always be boosted by feats later and qualifies you for some otherwise un-Monklike PrCs), and full BAB. At level 3, you get +2 STR. Not a bad choice for a HalfOrc looking to multiclass his Monk.
Unapproachable East: Shou Disciple. This is the most incredible, most versatile Monk PrC available. It drops the pretense of mystical abilities and wholly embraces beating the hell out of things. I can't recommend this class enough to players looking to beat things up while unarmed. It allows you all sorts of ridiculous options, like being able to Flurry with any martial weapon. Where this gets really ridiculous is with the Heavy weapons from Magic of Faerun. See, a Heavy weapon is treated as one size category larger for damage, but it also increases the size of the weapon by a category. Noting that a Gauntlet is a light weapon that is treated as an unarmed strike, a Heavy Gauntlet is a one-handed weapon that does unarmed strike +1 size damage. If you really want to get ridiculous, you can Monkey Grip a Heavy Gauntlet for +2 sizes to unarmed damage. But I digress. This class is great, and has lots of options available for multiclassed builds. Monk 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian (wolf totem)2/Shou Disciple 5 is a favorite. So is Monk 6/Shou Disicple 5. Check the class out, its benefits for only 5 levels are really noteworthy.
Oriental Adventures: Shintao Monk. The Shintao Monk was the first attempt at a non-mytical fighting monk, and its a great one chock-a-block full of Bonus Feat choices. This is an excellent PrC to cherry-pick 4 levels from, though you're going to want to discuss the poverty restriction with your DM. If you have a Vow of Poverty, its great synergy. Otherwise, you can make a good case that if VoP gives you such great perks, surely then the Shintao Monk can't be under the same restrictions. I personally interpret it to mean you can only have what you can carry, without regard for magic items specifically. Your results may vary.
Oriental Adventures: Tattooed Monk. I put this in because it was updated in Dragon #318 and because the one in Complete Warrior is a gimpy class you should never take. The Spider, Crab, White Mask, and Unicorn tattooes are my favorites.
Oriental Adventures: Singh Rager. Four levels of this will set you straight: you want Pounce. This ability is less attractive if you can swing a use-activated Lion's Charge item (Mini Handbook 3rd lvl Druid spell - custom item for 30,000gp).
Oriental Adventures: Henshin Mystic. Worth mentioning because I think its so cool. Not too mechanically strong, but cool.
Oriental Adventures: Shiba Protector (p223). You only want 1 level of this PrC, and it'll add WIS to damage. Nice, but not worth the 3 prereq feats and dumping the Monk class for.
Complete Divine: Sacred Fist. Monk 2/Cleric 4 is the easiest way to qualify for this class. For evil Human Monks, Monk 2/Barbarian 1/Bard 2/Ur Priest 1 is another way to qualify, but your spellcasting is going to drag until around character level 10 or so. There are a lot of other ways to qualify using the Educated (PGtF) feat.
Complete Arcane: Enlightened Fist. Without access to Wraithstrike (Complete Adventurer), this class isn't really worth it: multiple dips into mediocre-BAB classes like Enlightened Fist, Monk and Sorcerer/Wizard add up quick. Of course, making a Touch Attack is easy. However, the class is more caster than anything, which leads me to believe that this thread should have some great nuggets of advice. All in all, any class that has access to Wraithstrike is going to be incredibly overpowered - and classes with high BAB and Power Attack (hint: probably not your Enlightened Fist) are going to do a much better job than those without.
Expanded Psionics Handbook: Fist of Zuoken, WarMind.
When playing a monk, I prefer to design a prestige class that matches what I'm attempting accomplish. I consider the core Monk class a nice attempt but poor execution of what a core class should be - as it is, the final 10 levels of the Monk class might as well be a prestige class anyway, so replacing them with alternate abilities shouldn't present too much difficulty. An example of what I'm talking about can be found HERE, in a class called the Iron Scorpion Monk.
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ITEMS
This will only really deal with Monk-specific items. More general items (Ring of Sustenance, Heward's Handy Haversack) you should already be aware of.
Carry a guisarme (or other Reach weapon that allows Trips), especially if you're picking up Improved Trip at level 6. Even if you're not proficient in it and take a -4 penalty to attack rolls, its a Reach weapon and you'll probably have Combat Reflexes at 2nd level. Its a free attack, might as well take it. You can execute unarmed strikes, flurry, and execute Stuns with your knees and elbows - see the description of the monk's unarmed strikes and flurry class abilities. Its especially useful when Tripping because you only have to make a Touch attack, which is pretty easy even with a -4 penalty. If you fail the Trip, you can always drop the weapon that you really didn't need anyway (rather than get counter-Tripped).
The Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) makes the Amulet of Mighty Fists a laughingstock. I suggest a +1 WrathfulHealing (EaA) Paralyzing (BoED) GhostTouch SureStrike (PGtF) Mettaline amulet. Combine this with Greater Magic Fang + Permanency.
Use a Sparring Dummy of the Masters (from Arms and Equipment).
Monk's Belt. Most useful at lower levels.
Ki Straps (from Sword and Fist).
Gloves of Fearsome Grip (from Sword and Fist).
If you can access it, Dragon #308 has the Fanged Ring. NEVER PASS THIS UP IF YOU CAN GET ONE.
An item (hopefully that can be activated as a Free Action or is Use-Activated by a Charge) that casts Enlarge Person. This will have to be custom, but the spell is 1st level so there's a good chance you can score one.
Specific to the Eberron campaign setting are the Battle Gauntlet (Warforged only) and the Ectoplasmic Fist (psychics only).
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VOW OF POVERTY
The Vow of Poverty is a strong boost to low- to mid-level Monks. You'll enjoy a powerful AC bonus and entertaining resistances throughout. At levels 18+ and beyond, you'll be outgunned and outmaneuvered by every being you're facing.
You should know what you're getting into by taking the Vow of Poverty. Again, these won't come up until higher levels, but you need to be aware of them all the same. You cannot Fly. You cannot cause bodily injury to the Pit Fiends and Balors due to their Damage Reduction keyed to Cold Iron or Silvered weapons (which is a terrible oversight of VoP as far as I'm concerned). You cannot really hope to injure many of the more powerful constructs without adamantine ki strike. You'll always have a 50% miss chance against incorporeal undead. I suppose there are more, but these are the major concerns.
The benefits are pretty powerful. Damage reduction, insane AC bonuses, minor bonuses to various things, and the exalted feats. Great at mid levels, slightly deflating at level 18+.
Here's how I'd stage my exalted feats as a non-human:
4 Nymph's Kiss
6 Sanctified Natural Attack
8 Touch of Golden Ice
10 Sanctified Ki Strike
12 Holy Ki Strike
14 Exalted Spell Resistance
16 Fist of the Heavens
As you can tell, every one of these except Nymph's Kiss gives a direct benefit to combat. You should also consider taking the Vow of Nonviolence and possibly the Vow of Peace, since most everything I can think of that is immune to subdual damage is either undead or a construct, which you can use your regular attacks on anyway, but some players have a problem with always taking prisoners. The bonus +4 to Stun DC is pretty nice, and the Vow of Peace's bonus AC and weapon-shattering skin may just make your Vow of Poverty worth it at extreme levels.
I never actually take Touch of Golden Ice because its a pain having to roll for its effects on every hit, but the benefits are sound. I would take Vow of Nonviolence instead just based on avoiding the annoying mechanic of having to roll for the poison's effects on every hit.
Boost STR, (WIS and CON), and DEX with the attribute bonuses. I put WIS and CON together since it depends on your point spread as to what's best. Your AC should already be ridiculous, but there's little harm in making it even more so is there?
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SOME EXAMPLES
This section is a compilation of the builds that I have made and refined, and are organized by available books. This is section is far from exhaustive! I only included it to show possible builds that illustrate what I hope is a useful, fun, effective design philosophy.
I've avoided giving most of these builds Improved Natural Attack, since I've had some recent troubles convincing DMs that I can do so - their arguments mostly are based around my skill as a player, and not the in-game mechanics (ie., apparently I'm too good with Monks as it is to allow me to take INA).
Consult with your DM about Flaws from Unearthed Arcana, OA Monk feat-swapping, and Monk variant styles. Any of these can make your monk much stronger - you will never have enough feats, so anything that gives you more flexibility with them or slots for them is a very desirable thing.
...before I actually list the examples, I'd like to post links to two great monk-based threads.
1) The Trip Monk-ey of DOOM. This build maximizes unarmed damage and Trippery to an absolutely ludicrous extent. This thread has lots of great general info on how to get more out of your unarmed combat abilities, as well as containing something close to if not at the upper bound of possible unarmed damage. The builds there are incredible, probably too incredible to actually play.
2) Monk Damage. This thread isn't quite as flashy as the other one, but it IS a handy compilation of how to boost unarmed damage. A great reference thread.
Now, for the examples.
CORE ONLY (PHB, DMG, MM)
With a Core-Only ruleset, you really have a lot of intertia to overcome. A PHB-only Monk lacks a LOT of capabilities introduced later to the game, mostly due to a lack of interesting feats and options. On the upside, at least its a problem shared by all core-only melee classes. This is why in a core-only setting, I recommend multiclassing in order to boost capabilities.
Core-only Fighting Monk
HalfOrc Monk 20
1 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, TWF
2 Monk Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk Ability Focus (stunning fist)
6 Monk Improved Trip*, Improved Natural Attack
9 Monk Imp TWF
12 Monk Weapon Focus (unarmed)
15 Monk Power Attack
18 Monk Leadership
Core-only Clever Monk
Halfling Rogue 1/Monk 19
1 Rogue Dodge
2 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*
3 Monk Combat Reflexes*, Weapon Finesse
6 Monk Mobility
7 Monk Improved Disarm
9 Monk Spring Attack
12 Monk Ability Focus (stunning fist)
15 Monk Weapon Focus (unarmed)
18 Monk Leadership
CORE + COMPLETE + RACES + SETTINGS books
By having access to a wider range of books, Monks can start to branch out dramatically, mostly due to Complete Warrior. Karmic Strike, Defensive Throw, Pain Touch, and other feats greatly expand a Monk's repetoire and ability to specialize. Its unfortunate that Drunken Masters do not get more Flurry capability, and Tattooed Monk abilities are generally under-par, or else there would be much more interesting class combos to go with the widened feat selection.
Anti-Mage Monk
Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Monk 18
1 Rogue Dodge, Mobility
2 Fighter Weapon Finesse
3 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Improved Grapple
4 Monk Combat Reflexes*
6 Monk Mage Slayer
8 Monk Improved Trip*
9 Monk Sidestep
12 Monk Pharoah's Fist
15 Monk Freezing the Lifeblood
18 Monk Rapid Stunning
The idea here is that the Monk wields a Guisarme, and closes with the offending mage. The mage cannot cast on the Defensive, and any attempt to cast a spell provokes the following sequence from you: Trip with Guisarme if at 10', otherwise Grapple. If you succeed on the Trip, you then take a 5' move (Sidestep) and then with your Imp Trip-inspired free attack, you grapple. It forces spellcasters to get nice and close with you, whereupon you can hopefully beat the snot out of them with Stunning Fist attacks. An Occult Slayer can accomplish similar tactics, but this build still retains a vast majority of Monk-ness. I included Pharoah's Fist as a feat since your target may have bodyguards that immediately accost you, and its an easy way to deal with them without taking your focus off of your target. Note that this combo can even beat spellcasters with Mobile Spellcasting this way.
The Interrupter
Human Monk 20
1 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Pharoah's Fist, Dodge
2 Monk Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk Combat Expertise
6 Monk Improved Trip*, Karmic Strike
9 Monk Rapid Stunning
12 Monk Defensive Throw
15 Monk Freezing the Lifeblood
18 Monk (Rapid Stunning or Hold the Line)
By being able to execute multiple Stunning Fist retaliations on Karmic Strikes and Defensive Throws, this Monk attempts to disrupt his enemies' attacks. Pharoah's Fist is useful when surrounded, Stunning Fist when not, and Freeze the Lifeblood at higher levels.
FORGOTTEN REALMS
Forgotten Realms is notable really for only two things: Shou Disciples, and the Jotunbrud feat. Hopefully these examples highlight their use.
The Brutalizer
Goliath (patron of Ilmatar) Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Divine Champion 4/Occult Slayer 4
1 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, TWF
2 Monk Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk Weapon Focus (unarmed)
6 Monk Improved Trip*, Dodge
7 ShouDisciple
8 ShouDisciple Combat Expertise*
9 ShouDisciple Karmic Strike
10 ShouDisciple Power Attack*
11 ShouDisciple
12 DivineChampion Improved TWF
13 DivineChampion Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy weapon)*
15 Divine Champion Double Hit, Improved Initiative*
16 Occult Slayer
18 Occult Slayer Defensive Throw
19 Occult Slayer
As you may notice from level 13, this Goliath uses a pair of oversized (Huge) Gauntlets once hitting level 11, and Huge Golden Gauntlets with a Fanged Ring at 13, doing 6d6 base damage per hit, and simply beats the hell out of opponents. This build gets a lot out of Improved Natural Attack (making it 8d6 per strike) and Flaws (to gain feats earlier).
Bizzaro Monk
Human Fighter 2/Monk 18
1 Fighter Dodge*, Aberrant Blood, Jotunbrud
2 Fighter Combat Expertise*
3 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Improved Grapple*, Inhuman Reach
4 Monk Combat Reflexes*
6 Monk Improved Trip
8 Monk Improved Disarm*
9 Monk Deepspawn
12 Monk Karmic Strike
15 Monk Defensive Throw
18 Monk Starspawn
Not a very powerful build, but still very entertaining. You have 20ft reach with the guisarme you're carrying with your Deepspawn tendrils, and a 10ft reach with your fists. Thats a lot of grappling, tripping, and disarming if you're into that sort of thing. Which this build is. Fitting in Hold the Line would be a nice thing too.
ORIENTAL ADVENTURES
The Oriental Adventures book has a few nuggets of noteworthy mention for monks. The first is that it lifts the restriction on Monk multiclassing, allowing characters to take the class as any other (albeit with the alignment restrictions intact). Second, it contains several Monk PrCs: the Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, and Tattooed Monk (not to be confused with the CW version). Third, it contains 2 oddball PrCs that give unique abilities not often replicated: the Singh Rager, a PrC notable in that it can give Monks Rage and the Pounce ability, and the Shapeshifter, who gives Wild Shape to non-druids.
Manyformed Rage of the Shintao
Human Monk 6/Shintao Monk 6/Singh Rager 1/Bear Warrior 1/Shapeshifter 1/Master of Many Forms 2/Warshaper 3
1 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Power Attack, Kiai Shout
2 Monk Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk Improved Sunder
6 Monk Fists of Iron*, Improved Natural Attack
7 Shintao Monk Pain Touch*
9 Shintao Monk Eagle Claw Attack*, Iron Will, [Empty Hand Mastery]
11 Shintao Monk Unbalancing Strike*
12 Singh Rager Alertness, Greater Kiai Shout*
13 Bear Warrior
14 Shapeshifter
15 Warshaper Endurance
16 Master of Many Forms
17 Master of Many Forms [Firbolg Shape]
18 Warshaper ?
19 Warshaper
20 Shintao Monk
Note that this class requires 4 Ranks in Bluff (a cross-class skill) to get Empty Hand Mastery, and 10 ranks in Concentration to qualify for Shapeshifter. In the end, you're executing your unarmed attacks as a (large) Firbolg with +3 size to your attacks thanks to Empty Hand Mastery, a Fanged Ring, Improved Natural Attack and Morphic Weapons (unarmed base: 12d6), Reach of 15', and a 40 STR and 27 CON.
ENLIGHTENED FIST
To be honest, I'm not really impressed with the Enlightened Fist. Only by blatant abuse of Wraithstrike and ability draining spells do these guys stand a chance.
Enlightened Wraithstriker
Human Sorcerer 3/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Enlightened Fist 7/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 7
1 Sorcerer Combat Casting, Fell Weaken
2 Fighter TWF*
3 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Power Attack
4 Sorcerer
5 Sorcerer
6 Enlightened Fist Weakening Touch or Sudden Maximize
7 Enlightened Fist
8 Enlightened Fist
9 Enlightened Fist Heighten Spell
10 Enlightened Fist
11 Enlightened Fist
12 Enlightened Fist Extra Stunning
13 Spellsword
14 Eldritch Knight Rapid Stunning* (assuming your WIS is good enough)
15 Eldritch Knight Rapid Stunning
16 Eldritch Knight
17 Eldritch Knight
18 Eldritch Knight Extra Stunning
19 Eldritch Knight
20 Eldritch Knight
This build survives by abusing stat-reducing spells. Weakening Touch + Fell Weaken + Ray of Enfeeblement all on the same strike (or a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch) make for some deadly capabilities. In fact, you can probably see that I got lazy with feat choices around level 14 for precisely this reason. I assume there may be more appropriate choices... check the Gish thread for more feat options.
SACRED FIST
Divine spells are great. Righteous Might and Divine Power are beautiful things. This section doesn't include a standard Sacred Fist build, since they're easy: Cleric 4/Monk 2/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric +4 is easy enough to do and pays good dividends. No, I wanted something a bit more oddball.
Ur-Fist
Human Wizard 3/Monk 1/Swashbuckler 1/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 2/Enlightened (arcane) Fist 5/Mystic Theurge 6
1 Wizard Scribe Scroll*, Spell Focus (evil), Quicken Spell
2 Wizard
3 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Iron Will
4 Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse*
5 Wizard
6 Ur-Priest Combat Casting
7 Ur-Priest
8 Sacred Fist
9 Sacred Fist Divine Metamagic (quicken)
10 Enlightened Fist
11 Enlightened Fist
12 Enlightened Fist Extra Turning
13 Mystic Theurge
14 Mystic Theurge
15 Mystic Theurge Rapid Stunning
16 Mystic Theurge
17 Mystic Theurge
18 Mystic Theurge Extra Stunning
19 Enlightened Fist
20 Enlightened Fist
Again, anything that touches the Enlightened Fist becomes a caster first and a monk second. However, being able to cast any touch spell from a melee strike, and being able to use multiple slots for Wraithstrike again makes this a tantalizing choice. You can't use Harm with the Enlightened Fist's Arcane Fist ability until 14th level, but its a heck of a doozy when it hits. In the spirit of disclosure, this build has MAD and crappy BAB, but thats the price of being a dual caster with incredible power.
The Wizard can be swapped for Sorcerer, and the general architecture of the first 5 levels is the same. After that, you can always alter what the build does at levels 7+ for another version of the Ur-Fist.
PSY-MONK
Shining Talriic Scholar
Diamond Disciple of Zuoken
QUINTESSENTIAL MONK
BEYOND MONKS
ALL WotC SOURCES
ALL WotC SOURCES, QUINTESSENTIAL MONK and BEYOND MONKS
...
ADDITIONAL KEYWORDS: mean liar mean-liar mean_liar meanliar FAQ minmax min/max
In the description of Unbalancing strike, it never mentions a limit on how many times per day you can use it. Does this mean that you can use it as often as you like?
There's a reason why my last character fought 2 Humanoids in 9 levels.
I've never really paid too much attention to grappling so its hard for me to know where to start. apart from obvious ones like improved grapple, choke hold, and earths embrace? no restriction on material. and any recommendations on PrC's to increase grappling effectiveness?
i know that BAB, size, and str are important in grappling, so knowing that, is it wiser to go human fighter with the jotunbrud feat or like a half ogre [insert class] where i get size and increase in strength?
I really do hope they rectify that in 3.5e.
grey muse
From what I've seen, a basic, no-PrC Monk will probably not change that much. What will determine if these builds are v3.5 compliant or not is if OA monks can still swap bonus feats freely with Martial Arts feats or if they have to take the designated bonus feats.
And there's always the Anthropomorphic Giant Constrictor Yuan-Ti Broodguard.
Wood Elf is good if you're going point-buy, as you get bonuses to two of your most important stats with a penalty to one important and one unimportant one (I statted it out in another thread -- suffice it to say that if you get more points this difference isn't quite as big).
Dwarf is OK -- Hammer Fist won't use UBAB in 3.5 because there won't be any more UBAB, but the extra Con and Darkvision will make it a pretty decent choice.
Half-ogre is really good for a combat-oriented monk. My only gripe is that in order to shine, you should have really uber stats or else you'll end up being comparitively clumsy, dull, etc. than other monks (and a good DM will use that against you as much as he can if he allows a half-ogre monk in his campaign).
Originally posted by Cespinar Faywind
Mean_Liar have you looked at the unapporachable east's monk PrC? It would make for a great FR monk with the ability to flurry with any weapon and +1bab per level but still use -3 interitive attacks.
I've seen it, but I don't think its that great for a monk. It seems meant for Fighter/Monks, so that they can Flurry with a Greatsword.
Monks need Diamond Soul, Diamond Body, and high Stun DCs to be Monks, and the Shou Disciple has none of those. By removing the features that make your Monk special, you've become a Fighter with good saves. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you should realize that you're not really a Monk anymore.
...
Originally posted by kurgaz
Hey MeanLiar Do you recommend the Prc from Dragon Magazine...the Enabled hand...I think a disarming build would be pretty cool as well..or do you have one already?
Disarming is based on BAB, and so if you're going to be disarming it helps to be a Fighter.
DEVOTED DEFENDER build
Monk 2/Fighter 5/Rogue 1/ANY non-Monk CLASS 1/Devoted Defender 3
(requires access to Oriental Adventures)
Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*
Monk1 Dodge*
Monk1 Expertise
Monk1 Improved Disarm
Monk2 Deflect Arrows*
Mnk2/Fgt1 Grappling Block
Mnk2/Fgt1 Combat Reflexes*
Mnk2/Fgt1/Rog1 -
Mnk2/Fgt2/Rog1 Improved Trip*
Mnk2/Fgt3/Rog1 Weapon Focus (Sai)
Mnk2/Fgt4/Rog1 Alertness*
Mnk2/Fgt4/Rog1/Xxx1 -
Mnk2/Fgt4/Rog1/Xxx1/DvD1 Defensive Throw
Mnk2/Fgt4/Rog1/Xxx1/DvD3 -
Mnk2/Fgt4/Rog1/Xxx1/DvD3 Hold the Line
...
OPTION 1: A character with a sufficient INT can skip over the Rogue1/Other1 levels on the way to Devoted Defender, assuming that the character is willing to spend cross-class skill points on Spot, Sense Motive, and Search (4 Ranks in each, for 24 skill points to be spent cross-class by level 6).
OPTION 2: By taking the Rogue level, you gain access to Spot, Search, and Sense Motive. You needn't take 2 levels of it, and instead could substitute in any class other than Monk for the second Rogue level and as a human still qualify for Devoted Defender, so long as you spent all available skill points on Spot, Search, and Sense Motive. Good options include Cleric for access to Sacred Fist and Barbarian for Rages and Rage-based PrCs; this is a great spot to qualify for various PrCs with requirements like 'Favored Enemy', divine spells, arcane spells, 'ability to Rage', etc.
The build is designed to achieve access to Defensive Throw and Grappling Block as early as possible, without sacrificing access to the Devoted Defender. This is why the Rogue levels come in so late.
Note that in Oriental Adventures, a Sai is a Monk weapon and therefore a Monk can execute a Flurry of Blows with Sai; this eliminates the need for any levels of Ranger to effectively execute an Imp TWF/Ambi attack. As well, the Monk recieves full strength in what would otherwise be off-hand attacks.
This particular character can designate a character as a 'charge', then disarm and nullify any effective hit against himself or the charge as an attack of opportunity; alternatively, the Defender may execute a Trip against any opponent who misses him or the charge.
Originally posted by Cespinar Faywind
Mean_Liar have you looked at the unapporachable east's monk PrC? It would make for a great FR monk with the ability to flurry with any weapon and +1bab per level but still use -3 interitive attacks.
Back into the fray onto the new boards...
I'm one of the folks who support this class (Shou Disciple). But I agree with mean_liar that you have to have Diamond feats to really be a "monk".
My build idea was as follows:
Monk 1 - 16 (Char lvl 16)
Shou Disciple 1 - 4 (Char lvl 20)
Monk 17 - 20 (Char lvl 24)
The reason for this byzantine approach was that so you get a UBAB of 16 by the time you hit Char lvl 20. Remember, you don't gain any more UBAB after that (but do gain bonus to hit). So bumping to 16 means having 6 base unarmed hits instead of 5 (ie, flurry for 7 instead of 6).
I advocate returning to Monk after 4 lvls, so you can pick up the Diamond feats (and resume increasing your Stunning capabilities). You eventually hit "perfect self"; just will take 4 levels longer. But you will have more attacks/round in the epic levels, which I feel is worth the relatively short delay. YMMV.
1 Stunning Attack
1 Improved Initiative
1 Dodge
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Weapon Finesse Unarmed
6 Mobility
6 Spring Attack (not sure if you can swap this one or not)
9 Freezing the Lifeblood
12 Death Blow
15 Fists of Iron (Meditation of War Mastery)
18 Unbalancing Strike
If this does not work is there anyway to combine the Freezing/Death Blow style with the Spring Attack Tree?
I suggest doing this with a higher STR and forgoing Weapon Finesse. Of course, this means that you're weaker somewhere else.
ex-monk 2/ninja 2
how many stunning attacks does this build have?
2 or 3?
under Stunning Fist, it says a character has one stunning attack per day for every 4 levels attained, so in the case above, 2 for having 2 monk levels +1 for 4 character levels, right? or is it just 2?
Originally posted by goblinhero
how many stunning attacks does this build have?
2 or 3?
Just 2. The stunning fist from the monk class isn't the same as the feat.
Why aren't any of the FAQ's/Guides being made Sticky?
Hello? WizO folks?
Celestial Bloodline can be picked at 1st level. It will give your monk Protection from Good - 3/day and Bless - 1/day. These are ideal powers that increase a monk's AC and attack.
From there Outsider Wings can be picked at 3rd level. It will give the monk its movement in flight. Not only will you fly, but you will fly fast!
From there Eyes of Light (or something like that) can be picked at 6th level. Your light (daylight in 3.5) ability can be turned into a Searing Light attack - 1/day. This missile attack would complement a monk's abilities nicely.
The above feats, all from Races of Faerun, make a character equally powerful as the more combat oriented feats.
<--- Aassimar Monk :DOriginally posted by Fastbond
Hey mean, what do you think about Shiba Defender? Is it worth a sligh decrease in SR and stunning DC and some feats in exchange for WIS to attack and damage?
Really you're only giving up the 3 feats... the Stun DC and SR decrease is only for 1 level.
So, the question is, is +WIS to hit and damage worth 3 feats?
It depends on what it takes for you to have fun. 3 Feats is a pretty big layout for a monk, but its clear that 3 Feats (any 3 Feats at all) will probably not match +WIS to hit and damage. In general, its worth it. Most of the monk builds in my example section could stand to have 3 Feats trimmed off in the early levels for 1 level of Shiba Protector.
I think Shiba Protector really shines with bonus Feat multiclassing: Monk 2/Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Paladin 1/Sacred Fist 1/Shiba Defender 1/Sacred Fist +7.
...
revision: no freakin' way. Too many good feats these days, no way I'd give up 3 feats for that class.
I understand that getting up from prone provokes an Attack of Opportunity? It certainly makes Improved Trip look a lot better...
Originally posted by mean_liar
I really need to update this stuff after I've digested v3.5
I don't post here often, but I came here with hopes of reading an updated version. I'll be back! ;)
Going vaguely with the Tactician Monk build, limited use of OA. With racial modifiers and 2 stat trainings, I'm looking at:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 6
WIS 19
CHA 6
1: Dodge / Stunning Fist
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Mobility
6: Spring Attack / Improved Disarm
9: Expert Tactician
12: Pain Touch
15: Unbalancing Strike
18: Freezing the Lifeblood
Carry a +1 defending sai (or +2 if it makes economic sense) and use that for disarm attempts.
Or put less emphasis on disarming and instead carry a +1 vicious ki focus quarterstaff just for heftier spring attack damage.
Monk's belt, ki straps, boots of speed are a no-brainer. Every stat-boosting and AC item I can afford, and potions of Enlarge Person.
Something a little more universal may be more effective at that level.
Maybe Improved Grapple just to have one more way to mess with spellcasters. Or Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) for those times when I do get to flurry. At any rate, I'll get to play the character for 5 levels beforehand so I'll have a pretty good idea of what I need.
Originally posted by mean_liar
quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Shampoohorn:
I noticed that you haven't written much about what race to choose. Seems like you're assuming human for the feat. What are your thoughts on dwarves and half-orcs as monk races?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium or larger-sized races are the best. Both dwarf and half-orc provide good bonuses with essentially negligent penalties, but I don't think that the statistic increases are worth exchanging a feat for. There are just so many useful unarmed combat feats that to exchange a feat for +1 HP/lvl or +1 hit/damage doesn't seem worth it. I wouldn't recommend (on a mechanical basis) any race other than a Large creature, dwarf, half-orc, or human.
Let me start by saying that I'm not interested in a +ECL race.
I've read what you said about the races above, but what do you think of Hobgoblin (+2 DEX, +2 CON, +4 Move Silently) and the Wood Elf (+2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 INT, -2 CON, +2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot) as race selections? Do either of these characters outweigh the extra skillpoints and feat of a human?
Also, if you were to play a Monk character using the standard array of stats (15,14,13,12,10,8), where would you assign the stats?
That leaves Wood Elf. In general, +1 AC isn't worth +1 HP/level. Consider that at best a +1 AC is a reduction of 5% damage (as they hit 5% less); conversely, +1 HP/lvl as a Monk is roughly an additional 10% HP capacity. This means that the +1 AC is best used against opponents with a lot of attacks (more than 2). In general, its not a good trade-off. The bonus STR is nice, though. If you come up with a build and find that you don't need the extra feat, then go Wood Elf.
As for stats, I'd go with WIS/STR/CON/DEX/INT/CHA. The idea here is a tactician monk, primarily. Your stats aren't good enough to expect to be able to overpower your foes.
I'm not fond of races with CON penalties for monks. They already don't have a lot of hit points to spare.
My latest discovery (probably old news to some of you):
Greater Magic Fang affects unarmed strikes, and can be made permanent.
Cost of Amulet of Mighty Fists:
+1 6000
+2 24000
+3 54000
+4 96000
+5 150000
Cost of hiring an 11th level Wizard and a Druid to make Greater Magic Fang permanent on you:
+2 8290 (8th lvl Druid)
+3 8410 (12th lvl Druid)
+4 8530 (16th lvl Druid)
+5 8650 (20th lvl Druid)
The downside: it can be dispelled, and finding a willing 20th level Druid to (re)cast it may be a big pain.
An excellent compromise is a once-per-day command word activated Greater Magic Fang item. If it's dispelled, you get it back the next day anyway:
+2 8640 (lasts 8 hours)
+3 12960 (lasts 12 hours)
+4 17280 (lasts 16 hours)
+5 21600 (lasts 20 hours)
You still have to find your Druid once. Prices may vary from what a DM would charge, because they're from that wacky chart that thinks 2000 is a fair price for a continuous Enlarge Person item, for instance.
Originally posted by mean_liar
I think Hobgoblin is +1 ECL by Savage Species.
Originally posted by Foosnark
I don't have the 3.5 Monster Manual, but according to the SRD, hobgoblins are a +1 ECL race.
That's strange. According to the DMG, Hobgoblin is a +0 (then again, so are Aasamir and Tiefling, which I know are +1). Oh well, don't want to hijack the thread.
I know there is the feat costly Mage Slayer Prc from QM but have yet to see any DRAGON or UNAPPROACHABLE EAST builds that may help. any suggestions?
You could go Monk 14/Templar 6. Mettle is a very nice ability, the equivalent of Evasion for Fort and Will saves.
Monk 20: saves 12/12/12, SR 30, Improved Evasion, attacks +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 at 2d10.
Monk 14/Templar 6: saves 14/11/14, SR 24, Improved Evasion, Mettle, attacks +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 at 2d6+2. (Or 2d8+2 if using a monk's belt, which averages the same as 2d10.)
For an anti-wizard monk I'd probably go with grappling over stunning, and Improved Trip over Improved Disarm. You do need to take Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Endurance, 8 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) and choose a god who favors Unarmed Strike.
If I weren't already playing a Fighter/Templar I'd seriously consider this path for my Monk
Originally posted by capt. narcissist
I have seen alot of combat oriented Monk builds in here that look real good. They seem to be designed to fight off alot of less mobile fighter types but what about a build that can ward off magic really well? one that concentrates on defeating magic by focusing on SR and anti-magic strategies? I have seen the builds focused on Lifeblood freezing,stunning and the like but would like to know if there could be more elaboration to the build to specifically ward off magic?
I know there is the feat costly Mage Slayer Prc from QM but have yet to see any DRAGON or UNAPPROACHABLE EAST builds that may help. any suggestions?
You could use the Arcanopath Monk from Dragon Magazine 281.
Take the first hit you get while using google.
Originally posted by Lutscha
You could use the Arcanopath Monk from Dragon Magazine 281.
Take the first hit you get while using google.
could you sum up with this class focuses in? maybe mention some abilities.
Originally posted by capt. narcissist
could you sum up with this class focuses in? maybe mention some abilities.
http://www.geocities.com/evan_dnd/prestige/official/arcanopath.html
There is something written of copyright so I guess they are allowed to show it if not plz tell me or remove it, The only shown official prcs are all from Dragon Magazines and not from the books. Take a look at the Zerth Cenobite it's a very cool monk prc.
A Monk/Forsaker build.
If a monk has a native flight speed or other movement type, does the monk receive:
[3.0] the faster of their native flight/whatever speed or the monk's faster movement on table 3-10 (or 3-11)?
[3.5] an enhancement bonus to all movement types?
(Funny thing is, I am not sure if the answer would be what the official rules are meant to mean, or just how various DM's interpret and house-rule it.)
But ahm stickin' with me dwarves, ye fookers!
Incarnate Maug (ECL 3) Monk(Cobra Strike) 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai(fighter) 6
3:IM 3
4:IM 3/Mnk 1
9:IM 3/Mnk 6
10:IM 3/Mnk 6/Sho 1
14:IM 3/Mnk 6/Sho 5
15:IM 3/Mnk 6/Sho 5/Ken 1
20:IM 3/Mnk 6/Sho 5/Ken 6
Stat Mods: S+10 D+4 I+2 Ch+2
Stats(24, unweighted)~ S:28+9 D:22+6 C:12+1 I:10 W:8-1 Ch:10
AC:27=10+7natural+6dex+4breastplate
HP:8d8+11d10+19
Saves:17/11/8
BAB:+16/+11/+6/+1
Attacks(Spiked Chain): +27/+22/+17/+12 or +21/+21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+11/+6 (Two-handed), or +19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4 (Two-weapon).
Damage(Spiked Chain): 2d6+11 (w/o power attack), reach is 20' in 3.5, I think.
Speed: 70'.
Feats~ 2(level: Power Attack, (B): Alertness), 4(level: Weapon Focus(Unarmed), Monk: Dodge), 5(Monk: Combat Reflexes), 7(level: Large and in Charge), 9(Monk: Improved Trip), 10(level: Knockdown), 11(Shou Disciple: Mobility), 13(level: TWF, Shou: Spring Attack), 15(Kensai: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)) 16(level:ITWF, Kensai: Rain of Blows*), 18(Kensai: Storm of Blows*), 19(level: GTWF), 20(Kensai: Quickdraw).
Skills(6*8+6*4+5*2+6*2=94)
...
Tactics: Trip everyone in reach, up to 11 people (without haste), take knockdown AoO with large and in charge if anyone charges you, make all the remaining AoO on whoever tries to get up.
Note that this is all without any magical EQ. This could get *really* crazy with enlarge, haste, a sweeping chain, and other buffs. The build would also be doable as a human monk polymorphed into something nasty (firbolg
), and the smaller ECL would probably make it even more potent. Unfortunately, it would also rely on magic.Note: Fighter (i.e. Kensai) is favored class, so no XP penalty. This build is doable withouut dragon, it just get fewer useful feats.
BAB +15, Base Saves are all +16!
SA +3d6, move+40, greater flurry, Improved Evasion, unarmed damage 2d6, Slow fall 50', Still mind, Ki strike (magic), 2 monk bonus feats, 3 Exotic Weapon Prof, AC bonus +2, Immune to Poison, Acrobatics +20 (bonus to all Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks), Hide in Plain Sight, Water Walk, Thousand Faces, 4 magic tattoos
You'd need a feat to make Bluff and Disguise class skills, unless you wanted to burn tons of points on cross-class ranks to qualify for Ninja Spy. All other feats are open.
Originally posted by PhaedrusXY
Mnk4/Tattooed Monk8/NinjaSpy8
BAB +15, Base Saves are all +16!
SA +3d6, move+40, greater flurry, Improved Evasion, unarmed damage 2d6, Slow fall 50', Still mind, Ki strike (magic), 2 monk bonus feats, 3 Exotic Weapon Prof, AC bonus +2, Immune to Poison, Acrobatics +20 (bonus to all Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks), Hide in Plain Sight, Water Walk, Thousand Faces, 4 magic tattoos
You'd need a feat to make Bluff and Disguise class skills, unless you wanted to burn tons of points on cross-class ranks to qualify for Ninja Spy. All other feats are open.
could you map out this build, level by level, for me? it's really interesting! also, i think tatooed monk is from oriental adventures, but where is ninja spy from?
Fun reading, otherwise. though i don't know whatr most of the feats does
Originally posted by QaPlah
i think tatooed monk is from oriental adventures, but where is ninja spy from?
That's OA too, iirc.
button, silly.included some discussion of Enlarge Person and Jotunbrud
I'm going to rework it still... Defensive Throw is now a useful feat. This needs to be worked into the examples.
Originally posted by QaPlah
could you map out this build, level by level, for me? it's really interesting! also, i think tatooed monk is from oriental adventures, but where is ninja spy from?
Heh, I didn't really pick feats for it, since I never played it. It was just an idea I had that I thought would be cool. The character I settled on playing instead of that one is this:
Human Shadow Walker Monk2/RokuganNinja6/NinjaSpy8/TeflammarShadowlord4, ECL 21
BAB +16, Base Saves: F12 R15 W15
Special Abilities:
SA +6d6, Ninja Dodge +2, Poison Use, Immune to Poison, Imp. Uncanny Dodge, Speed of Darkness (Int. mod to Initiative), flurry (-2 att, 1 extra attack), Improved Evasion, Light Blindness, unarmed damage 1d6, Slow fall 50', 2 monk bonus feats, 3 Exotic Weapon Prof, Acrobatics +20 (bonus to all Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks), Hide in Plain Sight, Water Walk, Thousand Faces, Shadowsight (60' darkvision, works in magical darkness), shadow jump, shadow blur, shadow pounce, level 2 spells from TeflShad list, spell-like abilities: Shadow mask 3/day, Dim Door 3/day, Darkness 3/day, Shadow spray 3/day, Displacement 2/day, Shadow walk 4/day, Evard's black tentacles 1/day
Next level: Shadow Disincorporation: if an attack drops him to 0 or below in a shadowy area, can make a Reflex save with DC: 5 + damage to disincorporate instead of dying. If successfuly, he breaks into a flutter of small shadows and reforms at the next sunset within 1 mile from the spot where he disincorporated.
1 Nin1 Ninja Dodge +1, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, SA 1d6
2 Monk1 IUS, Improved Trip (monk1), Flurry
3 Monk2 Mobility, Combat Reflexes (monk2), Evasion
4 Nin2 Poison Use
5 Nin3 SA 2d6, Uncanny Dodge
6 Nin4 Spring Attack, Speed of Darkness (Int. bonus to Initiative)
7 Nin5 SA 3d6, Ninja Dodge +2
8 Nin6 Imp. Uncanny Dodge
9 NinSpy1 Defensive Throw, EWP: Fukimi-Bari (mouth darts, bonus), Ki breath (add level to con checks to hold breath)
11 NinSpy3 EWP: Spiked Chain (bonus)
12 NinSpy4 Expert Tactician
14 NinSpy6 EWP: Hand Xbow (bonus)
15 NinSpy7 Blind Fight
17 TShad1
18 TShad2 Great Throw (Gentle Way Mastery)
20 TShad4
The Ninja core class is from the Rokugan campaign setting book and is also available online >here< The Teflemmar Shadowlord is in the Unapproachable East book, as is the Shadow Walker template. And Ninja Spy is from Oriental Adventures, as someone said.
Edit: If I were remaking this now, I'd definitely try to find a way to fit in Elusive Target and Kung Fu Genius.
Originally posted by Boondoggle
Because it shouldn't be sticky. [b]We[/b] don't need stickies for every class. There is a link to this FAQ in the build FAQ and that's plenty good.
Oh, I thought that said "member" underneath your username. My mistake, Wiz-O.
Mnk6/TatM6/SR8
HD 12d8 + 8d12
BAB +16, Flurry +16/16/16/11/6/1, Unarmed Damage 2d6
Move 70 ft.
AC bonus +2, Wis to AC
Base saves are Fort 16, Ref 12, Will 16
Special Abilities:
Greater Fury 4X/day (same as Greater Rage), the pounce ability (can make a full attack at the end of a charge, this should be devestating when combined with Flying Kick), Remain Conscious, Great Ki Shout (Will save or panicked for 2d6 rounds, DC is 10 +1/2 char level +Cha mod), Immune to fear, +4 vs. mind effects, Roaring Strike (can use Great Ki Shout as a part of a full attack... Pouncing, Roaring, Flying Kick anyone?), and finally can act as if hasted for 8 rounds per day, not neccessarily consecutively. Can use all martial and monk weapons, and all armor. Evasion, Slow fall (30 ft), Still mind, Purity of Body, Ki strike (magic).
3 tattoos: Mountain, Scorpion, Crescent Moon
1 Mnk 1 Stunning Fist (mnk1), Iron Will (1), Dodge (human)
2 Mnk 2 Improved Grapple (mnk2)
3 Mnk 3 Mobility (3)
4 Mnk 4
5 Mnk 5
6 Mnk 6 Improved Trip (mnk6), Combat Reflexes (6)
7 TatM 1 Mountain Tattoo
8 TatM 2
9 TatM 3 Spring Attack (9), Scorpion Tattoo
10 TatM 4
11 TatM 5 Crescent Moon Tattoo
12 TatM 6 Ki Shout (12)
13 SR 1
15 SR 3 Power Attack (15)
18 SR 6 Flying Kick (18)
19-20 SR 7-8
)And no one here seems to have any trouble finding this thread so they can bump it :D
Str: 14 (+1 at 4th level for 15, +1 at 8th level for 16)
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Feats:
Altertness (1st level)
Dodge (1st level)
Blind Fighting (3rd level)
Mobility (6th level)
Improved Initiative (9th level)
Spring Attack (12th level)
Iron Will (15th level)
Lightning Reflexes (17th level)
Great Fortitude (20th level)
That is as much as I have planned. Any advice greatly appreciated.
Now add insult to injury. Luck of Heros is a must if you're playing FR. Now you have +3 total against spells IN ADDITION to Monk's all-good-saves progression and Diamond Soul
I strongly recommend Improved Grapple (the feat chain if you have access to OA), it's kinda difficult to cast spells when you're grabbed by the collar.
Now the only problem left is the Conjurer and his pets... Well, let the fighters in your party take care of them ;)
So if I did have 2 extra slots, what about filling them with
Improved Grappling and what else?
A monk has Hide and Move Silently as class skills, but no Sneak Attack and no Spot means that although they can provide ambush support as capably as a Rogue they lack in reconaissance ability.
this should say:
"A monk has Hide and Move Silently as class skills, and while a lack of Sneak Attack damage and Spot skill means that they cannot provide ambush support as capably as a Rogue, they make it up in reconaissance ability."
ie, they can't sneak attack (ambush) but they can recon (hide/move sil/run fast).
eudas
Originally posted by Boondoggle
Because it shouldn't be sticky. We don't need stickies for every class. There is a link to this FAQ in the build FAQ and that's plenty good.
Yes its good that there is a link. Its bad that the link in build FAQ does not work. Personally I think that the mean_liar's first post should be the second post at the build faq. That one stickied post could include the class build posts also so there would not be need for 10 stickied posts.
Character Optimization Board 3.0 Build FAQ:
- First post by Chris: Character Optimization Board 3.0 Build FAQ
- Second post by mean_liar: monk minmax creation guide
- Third post by Yekoj: Druid's handbook
- Fourth post by ....
It would be a great honor to be accepted into that thread and we would only have need for one stickied post then...
What do you Admin's think of that?
Sisyfos
[EDIT: I am sorry about the confusing language. When I wrote "post" I meant that the first and original post should be by Chris, but the mean_liar's post and Yekoj's post could be added on as the first and second reply to Chris' original post]
Originally posted by Skar
How's this feat progression wise for the ultimate mage killing/effects avoiding type human monk?
Str: 14 (+1 at 4th level for 15, +1 at 8th level for 16)
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 8
Feats:
Altertness (1st level)
Dodge (1st level)
Blind Fighting (3rd level)
Mobility (6th level)
Improved Initiative (9th level)
Spring Attack (12th level)
Iron Will (15th level)
Lightning Reflexes (17th level)
Great Fortitude (20th level)
That is as much as I have planned. Any advice greatly appreciated.
The Dwarf idea presented earlier is great. id go with:
Improved Grapple
Pain Touch - will keep the mage from acting longer. unable to act for 2 rounds and the items that jack your stun DC can help contribute unlike the OA special attacks.
Imp. Initiative
Blind Fight
Flying kick
Mantis leap
Expert Tactition
for when you charge or ready a charge to hit the mage you can Flying kick/mantis leap +stunning/ pain touch. If he is stunned then you get the expert taction attack and then you start the grapple with him lacking dex and you gaining the +2. next round he will be nauseated but able to take a move action (unless you succeed at grappling him)
I was just informed that i was off and that my flurry only uses the bab from my monk lvls. So which is it? if it is the latter Im not sure why ONLY a monk doesnt get to add all his classes BABs together.
In v3.5, there is no UBAB. It has been replaced by the progressive Flurry class feature. All BAB stacks to determine attacks, and Monk level determines Flurry ability. If we assume that the purpose of stacking UBAB in v3.0 was to contribute to the monk's available attacks, then we can conclude that they add to Monk levels to determine the effective level of the Flurry. However, this is not an official ruling.
I would regrettably like to point out a flaw in your Skillful Monk build, however - you take Weapon Finesse at level one, but the prerequisites for it include a +1 BAB, which you won't have until second level.
Any recommendations for replacing that?
Is it okay to post my uber-cheesed out Paladin Monk build? (And by Paladin Monk I mean Monk / Sohei / Paladin / KotMC / Templar / Sacred Fist / Singh Rager with the Spell domain)
You know. Superb saves, gigantic damage, OMG attack, and decent spellcasting and skills.
(Damn, I wish I had enough room to fit Bear Warrior in that build)
sladeburns: Regarding the Crab tattoo, I'd call it X/magic. I realize that I haven't accounted for that not being all that useful in my examples... something else I'll have to go back and update I suppose.
Lago: Post away. This thread is several pages long though, so it may not get the due you'd like it to. The only build I really thought about adding to the examples that isn't mine was the Dwarven Defender/Tattooed Monk grappler.
Originally posted by newblar32
x/magic would make the tattoo almost useless. i would suggest x/lawful
I agree that x/magic would be less-than-optimal, but x/lawful doesn't match the description of the tattoo in the book. That would have to be a DM's call, much like stacking monk PrCs onto Monk class levels to determine Flurry effects. But in the case of Flurry, its easy to see the analogy; with x/lawful, its a more difficult case.
Having a DR of 10/lawful at level 14 seems overpowered. If x/magic is easy to beat, then x/lawful is hard. Its swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction too far.
If you're fishing for a reinterpretation (and I gather you are), here's my biased opinion, with no basis in the rules besides my own sense of balance:
...
Crab: The tattooed monk gains damage reduction of 5/magic, 5/lawful, 5/adamantine, 5/cold iron, and 5/mithral. For each tattoo the monk possesses (including the Crab tattoo), he can remove 1 DR descriptor.
...
The more minmax interpretation is that it should provide DR equal to CON bonus, just like it does in v3.0. That way you can boost it with items, the Mountain tattoo, Raging, etc. Feel free to misquote me if it ever comes up, I promise I won't tell. ;)
I also know that this is clunky. If I come up with a better one I'll let you know.
In the games we play in, we use a hybrid 3.0/3.5 system. Basically we use all of the changes that came with the 3.5 DR system, but kept the DR X/+1, X/+2, etc system for magic DR. It makes DR/magic much more formidable, doesn't require as much change to the 3.0 system if you convert an ongoing campaign, and it isn't any more of a problem to beat than it was in 3.0. You just need extra weapons to beat the material DR's and whatnot that got added with 3.5, but you need that in a standard 3.5 game anyway.
Of course, this doesn't address how to best convert the Crab tattoo for a standard 3.5 game... guess I'm just venting and wondering if other people do this?
I gave the character 4 paladin levels to emphasize his righteous fist smackdown (because I'm inspired from Fist of the North Star), and monk abilities degrade for a short time, but the things that high-level monks are supposed to do REALLY kick it up a notch at around level 10.
But if that's a big deal, I can switch out the paladin levels with monk levels and perhaps a little sweetness from OA in the form of Shintao Monks or Tattoo Monks.
And the build requires super-high stats. And by that I mean something like 16 16 16 14 10 10 before you even think about it.
Originally posted by mean_liar
If you're fishing for a reinterpretation (and I gather you are), here's my biased opinion, with no basis in the rules besides my own sense of balance:
...
Crab: The tattooed monk gains damage reduction of 5/magic, 5/lawful, 5/adamantine, 5/cold iron, 5/cold, 5/acid, 5/sonic, 5/fire, 5/electricity, and 5/mithral. For each tattoo the monk possesses (including the Crab tattoo), he can remove 1 DR descriptor.
...
I also know that this is clunky. If I come up with a better one I'll let you know.
DR has nothing to do with Energy resistance and vice versa. There is no such thing as DR 5/acid, energy damage simply ignores any DR.
...
Crab: The tattooed monk gains damage reduction of 5/magic, 5/lawful, 5/adamantine, 5/cold iron, and 5/mithral. For each tattoo the monk possesses (including the Crab tattoo), he can remove 1 DR descriptor.
From mean_liar:
Crab: The tattooed monk gains damage reduction of 5/magic, 5/lawful, 5/adamantine, 5/cold iron, and 5/mithral. For each tattoo the monk possesses (including the Crab tattoo), he can remove 1 DR descriptor.
I like this idea a lot! It keeps the flavor of the tattooed monk with multiple tattoos building the effect. Also, it would provide character options ala do you want DR that is rarely blown through like 5/cold iron or do you want insignificant DR (5/magic) with the ability to punch through other's X/magic DR. Hmm. I'm gonna play around with this concept too.
A DR of 1/- per tattoo, per plus of CON, is my second choice. I agree with mean_liar about not wanting to over shadow the barbarian's DR but I would have revamped the barbarian for 3.5 with more than 1 extra(5/- total).
From mean_liar:
The only build I really thought about adding to the examples that isn't mine was the Dwarven Defender/Tattooed Monk grappler
Really?! Cool beans! Thanks man. You have got my permission.
I'm definitely an advocate for a Poverty Vow monk. It's so in character for a monk, to refrain from using magic items and to live simply for the greater perfection of the mind and body. It's a great alternative to th Forsaker and none of that break magic item stuff.
Human Monk 1
Starting Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty
From there, do what you wish. Get more Vows, go for Sainthood, get combat feats, go for a PrC, stay pure monk, whatever.
Simply awesome.
For a base: Monk13/Forsaker7
I don't think all the abilities it hands out at once is worth wings of flying, bracers of archery, and ki straps.
Originally posted by Lago AM3P
Why on EARTH would a monk want to take this barney feat?
I don't think all the abilities it hands out at once is worth wings of flying, bracers of archery, and ki straps.
Then don't play one. Some of us find the idea interesting. I always liked the idea of a monk/forsaker, but they seemed like they'd be too ineffective as you reached the mid to high levels. This seems like it would go a long way towards making them comptetitive.
Why on EARTH would a monk want to take this barney feat?
1) Asside from religious zealots who's most likely to not want worldly possessions. Mayhap some consider the 3.5 monk to be similar to monks of various Buddist sects on earth who also don't see a need for "stuff."
2) Because they're already a forsaker or following that path. In semi-munchy terms, how much useful equipment is there if magic items are out?
3) Because its effective and is a great alternative to expensive items.
4) So that a monk is "worthwhile" and not "reliant on equipment" as mentioned by someone (I can't remember who) in your other monk thread.
5) Items can be sundered, take up slots, can be dispelled or disjunctioned, can be stolen, don't function correctly in antimagic fields, etc...
6) Roleplay.
7) It gives a host of unique benefits, including large stat boosts. What other single magic item gives a +8 to an ability score?
to avoid the pruning shears.In that case, being a monk with the vow still gives you a pretty good advantage since monk bonuses from class lvls are still considered extraordinary, thus still lending you high AC and good attacks even in an anti-magic field. Once out of one, you suddenly jump in abilities to be on par with someone who has magical equipment.
You can fly? I can dimension door out to 800 ft at 20th lvl (400ft +40ft/caster lvl, caster lvl = 1/2 monk lvls). I can also drop any distance with out damage as long as there is a wall within arms reach. I'm immune to poison and disease (supernatural and magic diseases can still affect me), I have a +5 Exalted Strike bonus to my attacks, which are considered adamantine, lawful, and magical. I can go ethereal for up to 20 rnds per day. My bonus to AC from just the vow itself is 10+3+2 = +15, which doesn't count my Dex or Wis modifiers, which I most likely would up with my enhancement bonus from the vow (probably the +8 and +6, or if I was worried about being an effective fighter, +8 to Str, +6 Dex, +4 Wis, +2 Con). Since you can take the vow at 1st lvl human and the vow gives you a bonus exalted feat at 1st lvl (which you can now take since you got the vow at 1st lvl), take Vow of non-violence. Since the vow gives you a bonuse exalted at every even lvl, at 2nd lvl take vow of peace. The bonus to AC immediately stacks (as stated) with the vow of poverty, thus giving another +6 to AC, a calming aura out to 20ft radius, and the chance that manufactured weapons that strike you will be destroyed before they can deal damage.
According to a simplistic build that I tried to create starting with a human monk that took those vows at 1st and 2nd lvl using a 28pt build, by 2nd lvl I had a 24 AC without any possesions. By 6th lvl, assuming my opponent had a fighter's BAB progression and a +4 Str modifier, my opponent needed a 19 or better on a 1d20 to hit my AC 29, which even if he did, he might have his weapon break.
Ok, granted, with the vow of peace I can't "hurt" living creatures, but with the vow of poverty in place and being a monk, I eventually gain self sustaining sustenance (don't need to eat or dring and eventually don't need to breathe either) and as a monk I can make my unarmed attacks deal non-lethal damage without taking penalties. To be on the safe side, my 4th lvl bonus feat from the vow I took as "Non-lethal strike" (or whatever its real neame is) from the BoED. Now, any weapon I use can be used to deal non-lethal damage without having to take penalties to my attack. At 3rd lvl I took Power Attack, and I use a Monk's Quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon (not double weapon). Granted I only get my Str, in this case if I flurry, and not Str*1.5, but since it is being used as a 2-handed weapon, every point of Power Attack is doubled. I subtract my Str bonus equivalent in BAB from my attack bonus (at 4th: BAB = +3, I have a 14 Str, so I subtract 2pts) and I flurry with my quarterstaff. According to my calculations, at 4th lvl I do: #of attacks with bonus to each = (+1/+1), damage of each attack = (1d6+2(Str)+4(P.A)) = 1d6+6. Non-lethal of course, but minimum that is 7pts of subdual damage or maximum of 12pts of subdual damage. Given my ability to extract a vow of non-violence/agression towards my party or any specific town/target that I choose of my prisoner, I don't have to worry about him anymore. Should he break said vow or choose not to make it, I can leave him in the capable hands of my party knowing I have attempted to do everything within my power to keep him alive.
Anyway, given a few minutes to layout a build and consider the possabilities up to 20th lvl, it is easy to see how a Monk would combine greatly with a Vow of Poverty (and in my opinion, a Vow of Peace with it).
After reading through mean_liar's posting on monk possibilities, I think that I have hit upon a build that will have both Spring Attack and Freezing the Lifeblood by 6th character level. Please, feel free to poke holes in my theorizing.
Human Monk4/Fighter2/MonkX (once again, thanks to mean_liar for this setup)
32 point buy method, yielding the following stats by 4th level:
Strength: 16
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 17 (counting the +1 from 4th level, and advancing Wisom with all subsequent stat increases)
Charisma: 6
CL Source Feats/Abilities
1 Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows
1 Monk1 Stunning Attack
1 1st Improved Initiative
1 Human Dodge
2 Monk2 Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3 3rd Death Blow (BAB=+2)
4 Monk4 Ki strike (magic), slow fall 20 ft (+1 Wis)
5 Fighter1 Mobility (BAB=+4)
6 Fighter2 Spring Attack
6 6th Freezing the Lifeblood (BAB=+5)
7 Monk5 Purity of Body
8 Monk6 Improved Trip, slow fall 30 ft (+1 Wis)
9 Monk7 Wholeness of body
9 9th Expert Tactician
I believe that this build would yield the Killer Combo (Freezing the Lifeblood+Expert Tactician+Death Blow) by 9th character level, coupled with the defensive/tactical benefits of Spring Attack. If I read the combination of feats correctly, one should be able to move in, deliver a Freezing the Lifeblood strike, should that prove successful, capitlize upon Expert Tactician to deliver a Death Blow(a Coup de Grace attack). If the Freezing the Lifeblood attack is unsuccessful, the monk can retreat back via Spring Attack, to try again the following round.
That is, if Death Blow's Coup de Grace as a Standard Action truly can be executed with Expert Tactitician's yielding of an additional attack action/partial action, according to its description in Song and Silence. Any thoughts on whether this would work?
Cheers,
S_G
I came up with a mr. miagi type character (at least i envision him that way) that got a nice punch and mucho skill points (6+int !).
It got pretty steep ability requirements, but it seems to work even with 25 pt buy.
No... wait... is that you're own selfmade PrC?
Vintrastorm: It'sa Vow of Poverty build, using Book of Exalted Deeds.
WIS, STR, CON, DEX
As with attack bonuses you can never have enough AC, EVER!
What about Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries? What do you think of it's potential with monk base and OA Foot and Fist Mastery?
Might as well make the best of it.
If you got the stats to match all the prereqs this build needs (CHA15, DEX15, STR13, CON13) you can distribute the stat increases from VOP as you like.
@VintraStorm: I use vow of poverty from Book of Exalted Deeds to get an extra exalted feat on every even level (marked with double asterisk).
@ da_chicken: You can go with INT 8 of course, i just don't play rock-dumb characters and like to have lots of skill points ;)
Originally posted by Neonsamurai
We're trying to get it stickied for ages, i guess the moerators came to the agreement that class-related min/max threads are not to be stickied
Which I guess kinda makes sense, because I know I'd hate to see 15 different stickied posts at the top of this forum.
HOWEVER...
It would be nice if we could get one stickied post full of links to useful topics (like this monk one, the druid handbook, or the new bard handbook, for example)
At least it would save on a lot of repeated questions if we could just refer people to one compendium of knowledge for most of the stuff they would need.
because wis owns :P
con is nice for hp ..
dex for initivie ..
str .. for power but you gain that allready from wis .
Originally posted by streafer
if you take shiba protector you can add wisdom at ab/dam so thann i would take vop ench WIS CON DEX STR why?
because wis owns :P
con is nice for hp ..
dex for initivie ..
str .. for power but you gain that allready from wis .
wtf?
if you take shiba protector you can add wisdom at ab/dam so thann i would take vop ench WIS CON DEX STR why?
I believe he means if you take shiba protector you add wisdom to ab = attack bonus, dam = damage. Then he would use the vow of poverty attribute boosts to add points to WIS CON DEX STR in that order, since the vow of poverty gives ever decreasing amounts based on which stat you up first with its bonus.
Sex sells,
Sereg
Originally posted by sereg
Sex sells,
Sereg
streafer is not sexy
Originally posted by sereg
Translate this:
I believe he means if you take shiba protector you add wisdom to ab = attack bonus, dam = damage. Then he would use the vow of poverty attribute boosts to add points to WIS CON DEX STR in that order, since the vow of poverty gives ever decreasing amounts based on which stat you up first with its bonus.
Sex sells,
Sereg
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Streafer may not be sexy, but he does know how to build a VoP Monk!
Originally posted by Neonsamurai
@ da_chicken: You can go with INT 8 of course, i just don't play rock-dumb characters and like to have lots of skill points ;)
Remember that 8 INT isn't dumb, its only uneducated. With your high WIS, it basically means that you're a poor linguist/engineer but a crafty and practical person otherwise. It should mean your speech isn't as colorful as perhaps it could be (poor vocab), but at least you're not easily fooled or slow on the uptake.
I personally find it much more difficult to play a low WIS character than a low INT character.
That still doesn't solve the skill point problem, but at least it means that you can play a low INT character and not have every sentence begin: "Uhmmm...".
lvl 8 lawfull good monk
half - elemental air - half drow
:Pab ( we got 30 points
str 13 +1 +0 (elemental air) 30 - 3 = 27
dex 14 +2 +2 (elemental air) 27 -2 =25
con 18 +4 +2 (elemental air) 25 - 6 = 19
int 16 +3 +2 (elemental airl) 19 -4 = 15
wis 24 +7 +2 (elemental air) +2(vop) 15 - 10 = 5 ( takes us 4 points for 16 to 18 dm-rule)
cha 15 +2 +2 (elemental air) 5 - 5 = 0
why cha 15 ?
well because several exalted feats ( holy ki - strike etc. ) needs cha 15 as prequisit.
str so low because when i take shiba protector i get a +7 atm to ab/dam !!! so then i don't need str anymore.
ac: 29 ;) 7 (wis) (vop ac bonus +6 +1 deflection natural armor +1 ) ( total +8 ) +1 elemental air +1 monk ) +2 dex
so now i have nice ac ( nice ab/damage wenn taking shiba ) spells (elemental air ) i can fly(elemental air )
darkvision - half drow and a lot of stuff from vop ! :P
you can make ever a better build if you take a race instead of half-drow ( only gives dark-vision 60 feet +1 spot search listen) a race with +2 etc on wis !
and if you realy wanne make him hard ... try to take saint
but that's a little bit TO ..
Originally posted by streafer
...
So here's the min-maxer of my group
Translation:
and if you really want to make him a bad-ass-kicking-son-of-a-*****, try to get your hands on that lame-ass-saint-butt-kicking-template
if you're smart you wait with taking vop untill lvl 6 or 5 .. because than you can take greater magic fang permency .... for 9000 gp ! :P +5 ab +5 dam ! and its allowed with vop !
only thing you'll not have is some bonus feats from vop .. Just curious what the deal is, cuz i'm making a monk soon, and i'm considering some PrC's.
-AK
in swort and fist .. there is red avenger ..
that one with a high wis bonus was verrrry good
-Scan
EDIT:
Here's something quick.
Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*
Monk1 Stunning Attack*
Monk1 Sacred Vow
Monk1 Vow of Poverty
Monk1 Nymph's Kiss**
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Unbalancing Strike
Monk6 Death Blow
Monk6 Failling Star Strike*
Monk9 Freezing the Lifeblood
Monk12 Fists of Iron (Meditation of War Mastery)
Monk15 Expert Tactician
Monk18 Pain Touch
Monk20 -
This build is missing the bonus exalted feats at every even level. I'll add them later after my exams.
Stupid question: I don't see any mention of how often one can use feats such as Freezing the Lifeblood each day or any reference to what kind of action they are. I believe that I'm just missing the entry somewhere in my OA, so would someone be kind enough to tell me?
Thing is, it is core (PHB) only, except that I can use a kind of a background point for some speciality. This could be something like casting Mage armour 1/day, OR take 2 feats from non-PHB book. I asked about Jotunbrud and the GM said that that feat is worth the whole background thingy, so only 1 out-of-PHB feat if I take that one.
Another thing is that we probably level quite slow, being in levels 2-6 for some time. We have 28 point buy, at least 1 stat must be odd. Thats why I try to build this so that I have everything I want already at 6th level.
I thought to try out Jotunbrud monk, with the idea of getting improved disarm, grapple and trip.
I tought to take the Stats&Feats as follows:
Str 8+8p=15 (To be raised to 16 at 4th level)
Con 8+4p=12
Dex 8+6p=14
Int 8+6p=14
Wis 8+4p=12
Cha 8
Monk1: Stunning fist
Human1: Jotunbrud
Normal1: Improved Grapple
Monk2: Deflect arrows or Combat reflexes (Probably DArrows, as my dex is low)
Normal3: Combat Expertise (Needs int 13+)
Monk6: Improved trip
Normal6: Improved Disarm
9th maybe Blindfighting or weapon focus(unarmed), if we ever get so far.
Is it dumb to try to get all 3 improved things? I need to sacrifice my dex and one feat to get Combat expertise. On the other hand, I do get a lot of skills and having all 3 different methods would work well with Jotunbrud.
I could take I.Grapple instead of Stunning fist and then take Blindfighting or Imp.Initiative, but I would like to use Stunning fist, as it is a 'monk' thing. If I don't take it at 1st level, I probably can't use it at all.
Of course, an alternative could be a normal springattacker. I just would like to do a dwarf monk if I don't take Jotunbrud
. And Spring attack doesn't work with dwarf.Edit: Just noticed that I.Grapple needs dex13... argh. I thought to leave dex at 10, but now I had to take points from wisdom and constitution to get dex back to 14.
Edit2:
What would you think about dwarven monk, who takes 2 levels of fighter first? Probably no spring attack though.
I once played trip based monk, it can be found here. I know it isn't quite core but you should be able to get the essence.
With only core available, the life for a monk is pretty hard, especially since you won't endure very long in close combat. Keep your WIS high to get the biggest punch out of stunning fist, it is more viable than it looks at the first glance.
As soon as your stunning DC goes beyond 18 you will notice a sudden increase in stunned enemies ;o)
.Seems like it is quite hard to do a good core only monk, just like Mean_Liar said in the first post.
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
Any ideas for combining Vow of Poverty with the Killer Combo?
EDIT:
Here's something quick.
Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*
Monk1 Stunning Attack*
Monk1 Sacred Vow
Monk1 Vow of Poverty
Monk1 Nymph's Kiss**
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Unbalancing Strike
Monk6 Death Blow
Monk6 Failling Star Strike*
Monk9 Freezing the Lifeblood
Monk12 Fists of Iron (Meditation of War Mastery)
Monk15 Expert Tactician
Monk18 Pain Touch
Monk20 -
This build is missing the bonus exalted feats at every even level. I'll add them later after my exams.
Stupid question: I don't see any mention of how often one can use feats such as Freezing the Lifeblood each day or any reference to what kind of action they are. I believe that I'm just missing the entry somewhere in my OA, so would someone be kind enough to tell me?
Id add Intuitive Strike in that build somewhere. adds to your to hit calculations using your WIS. since he is a stun monkey look for Rapid Stunning so you can try and stun more then once around.
with this build ( the best i can imagine
)monk 13 / shiba 1 / saint 2 / forsaker 4 ( with vop offcourse )
human
anyway
lvl 1 iron will ( for shiba protector )
lvl 1 stunning attack ( monk )
lvl 2 combat reflexes ( monk )
lvl 2 ( vop ) ice touch
lvl 1 expertise ( for shiba protector )
lvl 4 ( vop ) ?
lvl 3 alertness ( for shiba protector )
lvl 6 improved trip ( monk )
lvl 6 great fortitude ( for forsaker )
lvl 6 ( vop ) ?
lvl 9 lightning reflexes ( for forsaker )
lvl 10 ( vop ) ?
lvl 12 improved critical
lvl 12 ( vop ) ?
lvl 14 ( vop ) ?
lvl 15?
lvl 16 ( vop )
lvl 18 ?
lvl 18 ( vop ) ?
lvl 19 ?
so i got some feat slots free ..
i was thinking about power attack or something ..
but someone with nice combo's?
stats .. are at lvl 20
str 18 + 6 vop = 24
con 18 + 4 vop + 2 saint = 24
dex 10
wis 18+5 +8 vop + 4 fors. +2 saint = 37
int 10 + 2 vop = 12 :P
cha 10 +4 saint = 14
ac : 10 + 0(dex) + 13(wis) +13(wis-saint) +10(vop ac bonus ) + 2( natural armor vop + 3( vop deflection) + 2 (monk natural armor ) = 53 ( against evil 57 protection from evil ( saint ) )
bab 9 (monk) +4 (fors) + 0 (shiba) = 13
ab : 14 + 7 (str) + 13(wis-shiba) = 33/33/33/28/23
damage: 2d6 + 7(str) + 13 ( wis-shiba) = 2d6 +20 ( against evil: +1d6/1d8
sr: monk 23 + 14 = 37
dr: 10/evil ( saint )
fasthealing: 10 ( saint )
saves:
fort : 8 +2 ( great fort. ) +4 ( fors ) + 2 ( shiba ) + 7 = 23
ref: 8 +1 ( fors ) +0 ( shiba ) + 0 = 9
will: 8 +2 ( iron will ) + 4 ( fors ) +2 ( shiba ) + 13 = 29
hmm reflex is very low i see now :| mayby some ab points to dex.
he also got some very nice things from forsaker and saint ( but that's for now to much to write ;) )
my question is .. which feats should i take?
some special combo's? pls help
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
I don't think that anyone has pointed this out yet but Complete Warrior nerfed the Killer Combo (sort of). Freezing the Lifeblood now recquires a Wisdom of 17 (shouldn't be too tough) and a BAB of +10.
You don't have to use Complete Warrior do you?
The feat has been out as long as it has without any major errata, and it's not exactly broken because it's limited to Humaniods.
Originally posted by Mucknuggle
I don't think that anyone has pointed this out yet but Complete Warrior nerfed the Killer Combo (sort of). Freezing the Lifeblood now recquires a Wisdom of 17 (shouldn't be too tough) and a BAB of +10.
You don't have to use Complete Warrior do you?
The feat has been out as long as it has without any major errata, and it's not exactly broken because it's limited to Humaniods.
Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, **Nymph's Kiss
Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes*, **Intuitive Strike
Monk 3 - Unbalancing Strike
Monk 4 - **Touch of Golden Ice
Monk 6 - Improved Initiative, Falling Star Strike*, **Nimbus of Light
Monk 8 - **Sanctify Ki Strike
Monk 9 - Freezing the Lifeblood
Monk 10 - **Holy Ki Strike
Monk 12 - Fists of Iron (Meditation of War Mastery), **Fist of the Heavens
Monk 14 - **Exalted Spell Resistance
Monk 15 - Expert Tactician
Monk 16 - Holy Radiance
Monk 18 - Pain Touch, **Stigmata
Monk 20 - **Gift of Faith
**Note: Feats marked with ** are Exalted Bonus feats. This build was made using the 3.0 version of Freezing the Lifeblood. If using the updated Complete Warrior feat, take Pain Touch at 9, Expert Tactician at 18 and Freezing the Lifeblood at 15.
Sure, fun for flavor and all that, but really. Minmaxing should let you take on creatures of a higher CR than you should otherwise be able to beat, thereby giving you access to greater-than-expected-for-your-level amounts of booty. Use and abuse, rinse and repeat.
Originally posted by mean_liar
Minmax-wise, I really think VoP stinks.
I totally agree with you. But you know, I'll tell you guys how it goes playing my VoP Killer Combo monk. Starting the campaign at level 5. I imagine that it will be pretty effective at the lower levels and then gradually become less and less powerful as we gain levels and I lose access to some really good treasure.
Monk 4/Fighter 2/Kensai 4/ Dervish 10
32 point Stat Buy
STR 10 DEX 13 CON 13 INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 15
Class, Feat and Skill Progression (OA rules for exchanging feats at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level for martial arts feats).
1st level - Monk
Feats: Human:Sacred Vow, 1st level
ow of Poverty, Monk:Stunning Fist, Exalted:Nymph's KissSkills: Concentration 4, Diplomacy 4, Ride 2, Perform (dance) 4, Tumble 4, Spot 4, Listen 4
2nd level - Monk
Feats: Monk:Combat Expertise, Exalted: Touch of Golden Ice.
Skills: Concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Ride 2.5, Perform (dance) 5, Tumble 5, Spot 5, Listen 5
3rd level - Monk
Feats: 3rd level: Weapon Focus
Skills: Concentration 6, Diplomacy 6, Ride 3, Perform (dance) 6, Tumble 6, Spot 6, Listen 6
4th level - Monk
Feats: Exalted: Intuitive Attack
Skills: Concentration 7, Diplomacy 7, Ride 3, Perform (dance) 7, Tumble 7, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1
+1 to CON
5th level - Fighter
Feats: Fighter: Dodge
Skills: Concentration 7.5, Diplomacy 7.5, Ride 4, Perform (dance) 7.5, Tumble 7.5, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 1
6th level - Fighter
Feats: 6th level: Combat Reflexes, Fighter: Mobility, Exalted: Sanctify Natural Attack
Skills: Concentration 8, Diplomacy 8, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 8, Tumble 8, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 2
7th level - Kensai
Skills: Concentration 9, Diplomacy 9, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 8.5, Tumble 8.5, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 5, Jump 1, Balance 1
+2 to WIS (from Vow of Poverty)
8th level - Kensai
Feats: Exalted: Vow of Obediance
Skills: Concentration 10, Diplomacy 10, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 9, Tumble 9, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 7, Jump 2, Balance 2
+1 to DEX
9th level - Kensai
Feats: 9th level: Leadership
Skills: Concentration 11, Diplomacy 11, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 9.5, Tumble 9.5, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 9, Jump 3, Balance 3
10th level - Kensai
Feats: Exalted: Servant of the Heavens
Skills: Concentration 12, Diplomacy 12, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 10, Tumble 10, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 4, Balance 4
11th level - Dervish
Skills: Concentration 12.5, Diplomacy 12.5, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 11, Tumble 11, Spot 7, Listen 8, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 5, Balance 5
+2 to WIS and CON (From Vow of Poverty)
12th level - Dervish
Feats: 12th level: Dragon Cohort, Exalted: Nimbus of Light
Skills: Concentration 13, Diplomacy 13, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 12, Tumble 12, Spot 7, Listen 9, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 6, Balance 6
+1 to CHA (From Level up)
(Get a Dragon Cohort, I recommend Young Gold, assuming you have enough leadership bonuses)
13th level - Dervish
Skills: Concentration 13.5, Diplomacy 13.5, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 13, Tumble 13, Spot 7, Listen 10, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 7, Balance 7
14th level - Dervish
Feats: Exalted: Holy Radience
Skills: Concentration 14, Diplomacy 14, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 14, Tumble 14, Spot 7, Listen 11, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 8, Balance 8
15th level - Dervish
Feats: 15th level: Frightful Presence
Skills: Concentration 14.5, Diplomacy 14.5, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 15, Tumble 15, Spot 7, Listen 12, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 9, Balance 9
+2 to WIS, CON, and STR (From Vow of Poverty)
16th level - Dervish
Feats: Exalted: Stigmata (That was a freaky movie)
Skills: Concentration 15, Diplomacy 15, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 16, Tumble 16, Spot 7, Listen 13, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 10, Balance 10
+1 to WIS (From level up)
17th level - Dervish
Skills: Concentration 15.5, Diplomacy 15.5, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 17, Tumble 17, Spot 7, Listen 14, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 11, Balance 11
18th level - Dervish
Feats: 18th level: Close-Quarters Fighting, Exalted: Exalted Spell Resistance
Skills: Concentration 16, Diplomacy 16, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 18, Tumble 18, Spot 7, Listen 15, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 12, Balance 12
19th Level - Dervish
Skills: Concentration 16.5, Diplomacy 16.5, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 19, Tumble 19, Spot 7, Listen 16, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 13, Balance 13
+2 to WIS, CON, STR, and DEX (From Vow of Poverty)
20th level - Dervish
Feats: Exalted: Whatever exalted feat you feel like
Skills: Concentration 17, Diplomacy 17, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 20, Tumble 20, Spot 7, Listen 17, Swim 1, Intimidate 10, Jump 14, Balance 14
+1 to WIS (From level up)
----
If you don't mind giving up Combat Reflexes and dropping two skills, this could easly be a non-human race. Simply Take Sacred Vow at level 1, Vow of Poverty at level 3, and replace level 6's Combat reflexts with Weapon Focus (unarmed). That Monkey race from OA has some nice bonuses for this class.
Also, remember, the Vow of Poverty gives you exalted strike (a +x bonus to your attack), so you can immediately use the Kensai +x's for weapon effects you wish to imbue into your unarmed attack. One +1 (out of a total of +4 from Kensai) must be used for the Morphing weapon effect from Underdark. You must change your fists into a slashing weapon (or more preciesly, change 'em into the slashing talons of some other critter), as this is how you qualify for Dervish.
IF you have any suggestions or comments, feel free to post.
-Robert
Robert's Monk/Kensai/Dervish
Monk 4/Fighter 2/Kensai 4/ Dervish 10
32 point Stat Buy
STR 10 DEX 13 CON 13 INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 15
Class, Feat and Skill Progression (OA rules for exchanging feats at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level for martial arts feats).
1st level - Monk
Feats: Human:Sacred Vow, 1st level
Skills: Concentration 4, Diplomacy 4, Ride 2, Perform (dance) 4, Tumble 4, Spot 4, Listen 4
2nd level - Monk
Feats: Monk:Combat Expertise, Exalted: Touch of Golden Ice.
Skills: Concentration 5, Diplomacy 5, Ride 2.5, Perform (dance) 5, Tumble 5, Spot 5, Listen 5
3rd level - Monk
Feats: 3rd level: Weapon Focus
Skills: Concentration 6, Diplomacy 6, Ride 3, Perform (dance) 6, Tumble 6, Spot 6, Listen 6
4th level - Monk
Feats: Exalted: Intuitive Attack
Skills: Concentration 7, Diplomacy 7, Ride 3, Perform (dance) 7, Tumble 7, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1
+1 to CON
5th level - Fighter
Feats: Fighter: Dodge
Skills: Concentration 7.5, Diplomacy 7.5, Ride 4, Perform (dance) 7.5, Tumble 7.5, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 1
6th level - Fighter
Feats: 6th level: Combat Reflexes, Fighter: Mobility, Exalted: Sanctify Natural Attack
Skills: Concentration 8, Diplomacy 8, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 8, Tumble 8, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 2
7th level - Kensai
Skills: Concentration 9, Diplomacy 9, Ride 5, Perform (dance) 8.5, Tumble 8.5, Spot 7, Listen 7, Swim 1, Intimidate 5, Jump 1, Balance 1
+2 to WIS (from Vow of Poverty)
Unless I missed something, which is possible because I'm not real familiar with the "Vow's".
Originally posted by streafer
hmm i've got some feats questions
with this build ( the best i can imagine
monk 13 / shiba 1 / saint 2 / forsaker 4 ( with vop offcourse )
Where is saint from?
Alignment: Any Lawful
BAB: +5
Skills: Concentration 5 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks, Ride 5 ranks
Feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (Any weapon)
Special: Must complete an oath of service to either an overlord or ideal.
As you can see, my guy meets all of those requirements, and so picks up all the nifty effects (well, up to level 4) of the Complete Warrior's Kensai.
That includes Signature Weapon (add +1 in magic bonus or magic effects for each level, costs a small amount of exp), Power Surge (@ 2nd level, Concentration check @ DC 15 gives +8 STR for rounds equal to 1/2 class level. +5 to each check made after the first in 24 hour time period), and Ki Projection (add 1/2 class level to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, or Intimidate checks).
So, all the Kensai stuff I wanted, I have. But really, Kensai takes the backseat to Dervish (as you can tell by the level distrubution).
-Robert
Mnk 4/Ftr 2/Drunken Master 4/Reaping Mauler 5/Tattooed monk 5
drunken master and tattooed monk are both lame-ass in comparision to 3.0 but they allot for a lot of really neat abillities.
BAB:+16
Saves:19/16/13 (IIRC, no books on hand)
all-in-all an OK build but it shines with VOP...
I wonder why i see this prc in so many builds.
there a lot better prc's ..
Originally posted by Hanniball
just thought of this build:
Mnk 4/Ftr 2/Drunken Master 4/Reaping Mauler 5/Tattooed monk 5
drunken master and tattooed monk are both lame-ass in comparision to 3.0 but they allot for a lot of really neat abillities.
BAB:+16
Saves:19/16/13 (IIRC, no books on hand)
all-in-all an OK build but it shines with VOP...
what Tattoos would you have in the build?
the Prc, although weak in comparison to others, is not nearly as narrow. it allots for extreme customization and has a few pretty powerful abilities.
Unicorn (rerolling attacks/saves/checks is flippin' awesome)
Tortoise (useful in those rare occasions when retarted skills are used to accomplish a goal)
Dragonfly (a +5 dodge bonus to ac for 9 rounds anyone?)
Chrysanthemum (never need a healer again, just don't be a light-sensitive race)
and many, many more...
EDIT:
Capt narcissist:
unicorn, mountain, and lion, probably
what do you think: grapple opponent (you'll probably win) then activate mountain tattoo.
would your opponent be able to escape the grapple?
Originally posted by streafer
When i look into the tattoe monk i find it a pretty weak prc...
I wonder why i see this prc in so many builds.
there a lot better prc's ..
Its in the base builds because I'm lazy and haven't removed them to account for the v3.5 Tattooed Monk. Which stinks. :P
thanks
In what book is the 3.5 tattoed monk ?
Complete Warrior
Half-Bronze dragon (Template, SRD)/ Saint (Template, BoED)/ Druegar/paladin 2/monk x/kensai x
ok.... with the 1/2 dragon, saint, dreugar set-up its a LA +6, you gain immunities to Acid, cold, electricity, fire, petrification, poison, phantasms, sleep, paralysis, and 1 more from the Druegar. thats 10 immunities.
you gain the following stat bonuses: +8 str, +4 con, +2 int,+2 wis, +6 cha. then you just add on the druegar stats on, unfortuenetly i dont have them available atm, sorry. Also you get ability increases from VoP.
their are some spell like abilities/extra ordinary abilities that are nifty, 1/day- Invisibility, enlarge, breath weapon. Damage Reduction, fast healing, protective aura (double strength magic circle against evil and less glob of invulnerability), tongues.
you go 2 paladin (divine grace), then take the rest monk until you can acess kensai. im not really sure how much kensai you can take. But the idea is you worship the god Rao from the greyhawk
campaign and take the feat Serenity, from Dragon Magazine #306, this feat allows you to have divine grace and most of your other paly stuff be based off of Wis not Cha. if possible, put plenty out ability points into Con, Wis, & strength. Con for Power surge/concentration checks.
I need your advice with this build, wich includes Vow of Poverty and Oriental stuff. It's designed to play in Faerun, but the character is from Kara-Tur, 20 level of Monk straight.
What do you think of it ?
1st # :
- Sacred Vow (Level)
- Vow of Poverty (Human)
- Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk, free)
- Stunning Fists (Monk, bonus)
- Nymph's Kiss (Exalted)
2nd # :
- Fists of Iron (Monk, bonus)
- Intuitive Attack (Exalted)
3rd # :
- Power Attack (Level)
4th # :
- Touch of Golden Ice (Exalted)
6th # :
- Improved Sunder (Level)
- Falling Star Strike (Monk)
- Nimbus of Light (Exalted)
8th # :
- Stigmata (Exalted)
9th # :
- Eagle Claw Attack (Level)
10th # :
- Sanctify Ki Strike (Exalted)
12th # :
- Kiai Shout (Level) - Empty Hand Mastery -
- Holy Ki Strike (Exalted)
14th # :
- Fist of the Heaven (Exalted)
15th # :
- Freezing the Lifeblood (Level) - Meditation of War Mastery -
16th # :
- Exalted Spell Resistance (Exalted)
18th # :
- Sun School (Level)
- Resounding Blow (Exalted)
20th # :
- Quell the Profane (Exalted)
You will get better useage out of expert tactician, dodge, karmic strike, combat reflexes, and unbalancing strike.
otherwise you're bab is to low
Worthless is a little strong. Those are no Skill Focus, Toughness, or WS: Net.
Meh, worthless..sub optimal...same sh*t different pile.
A fighter type will ALWAYS sunder better than a monk, and a trip build will ALWAYS trip better than a monk. A monk will not have the same strength score as a fighter type and if anyone tries to trip they will specialize in it (jotunbrud, improved trip, wolf berserker, sweeping weapon --> +16 to trip excluding strength). That alone makes those feats worthless. Also, a monk needs to use more feats than your fighter-type to sunder, unless they plan on wielding a monk weapon which in turn makes your pressure point attacks useless.
Pressure point attacks are for low Fort saves targets (arcane spellcasters or rogue type), the DC's won't be high enough for fighter types. So I think the best way to fight these ones is to Sunder their weapons.
If I've done my math correctly at level 20 I'll deal 4d8 +17 average on a weapon (+1d6 for Fists of Iron) with Sunder. My unarmed attacks will be considered adamantine, magic, good, holy and lawful, and the fighters won't have anything to Sunder from me ;) With these damages I can break almost any weapon in one strike...
Do you think there are better ways to fight fighter types character than this one ? If so, please let me know.
With Expert Tactician you should be able to rack up quite a few attacks.
Originally posted by newblar32
Also, a monk needs to use more feats than your fighter-type to sunder, unless they plan on wielding a monk weapon which in turn makes your pressure point attacks useless. [/b]
Unless, of course, you have a weapon with Ki Focus (a mere +1 enchancement), which allows your pressure-point abilities and damage penetration to work though the weapon. With the right weapon, you can penetrate just about anything -- someone mentioned getting holy+good penetration with some mixture of classes and exalted feats, but you can just add those to a ki-focus weapon, and be good to go. Add in one or two energy enchancements and/or axiomatic, and you more than compensate for the reduction in base damage. Of course, you end up with a +8 weapon or something, but ...
Sundering for a monk takes 3 feats..all of which are suboptimal.
Now you have reduced your feat selection by a considerable amount.
P.S. If anybody is interested you can easily get a monk to have DC 30 to 32 saves on his stunning attacks and whatnot.
This can go even higher with 3rd party material - specifically, the Poison Fist (is that the name?) from Quintessential Monk though undoubtedly there are others classes and items in some 3rd party book somewhere that would boost this even further. The class gets an effective +1 DC to Stuns for every level of the class (its a 5-level PrC), which means that you can end up with a character doing a Stun with a DC of (27 + base WIS + 1/2 level), more than enough to incapacitate most foes. And with the Quint Monk book you can take Choose the Poison as a feat (I think its a prereq for the 'Poison Fist' class anyway) and force your opponent to make a WIL save to resist Stun instead of FORT (your choice), meaning that only high level Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Monks really have even a moderate chance to resist your Stuns.
That being said, I still question the effectiveness of the Poison Fist class. I suppose I just like big damage more than fancy Stuns - and the Feat prereqs are steep for a straight Monk to qualify for.
as far as I can see:
Ki straps (SF)
ability focus (MM?)
Break the breath (QM)
fist of the heavens (BoED)
mediation of war (OA)
will all get you bonuses to stun DC.
The class gets an effective +1 DC to Stuns for every level of the class (its a 5-level PrC),
that would be the 4th level of the Five animals fighter Prc from quintessetial Monk. This is a good 5 lvl. class with alertness and Improved initiative feats and 7 levels of Monk as the requisite for the class.
Five Animals Fighter doesn't add levels to Stun DC in 3.0, but I guess that's irrelevant in v3.5. That really makes the 4th level ability pretty dang powerful, if it stays. Are you sure about this? I don't have the books handy...
Deadly Venoms Boxer levels add to determine Stun uses and DC. Additionally, the 1st level class feature adds class levels to DC. These abilities are separate (I believe this is repreated on the Mongoose FAQ/website).
So, in theory you could max it with the feats and abilities...
10: Base DC
+5: Ki straps (SF)
+2: ability focus (MM indeed)
+2: Break the breath (QM)
+2: fist of the heavens (BoED)
+2: mediation of war (OA)
+5: 5 levels of Five Animal Fighter (QM)
+5: 5 levels of Deadly Venoms Boxer (QM)
+10: 20 character levels
+4: WIS 18
+3: Periapt of Wisdom +6
= DC 50 Stun attack. Even if Five Animals Fighter doesn't get +1 DC/lvl, thats still a DC 45 Stun at level 20. Heinous.
so your stunning DC would be 47.
Originally posted by ridcully52
I don't know if anybody else has brought this point up yet as I don't have time to read every post in here, but in the descriptions listed for freezing the lifeblood, falling star strike--I believe there are one or two others but I won't go into that--it says nothing about not being able to use the two of them together and it also fails to list a number of times a day you can do it. So you oculd potentially combine the two so that every attack you do has a chance of blinding and paralyzing the target.
Wow, that's just wrong. I looked, and sure enough, I can't find anything about the feats themselves that prevent this. Hmm, although, Freezing the Lifeblood says it counts as one of the uses of the stunning attack feat, so it's safe to say you can't use that every attack--only once per round (per the stunning attack feat). Falling Star Strike has yet to be rewritten, so if you go by the description in Oriental Adventures, that says even less -- nothing in there about a limit to the number of times you can do it in a round, much less in a day. The implication is clearly that they both substitute for your stunning attack feat option. It'd be like saying the turning feats can be done at the same time you're actually turning (though I think the S&F actually says 'instead of turning' -- no such clarification here, so if your GM is insane enough, you could get away with it, I bet
Actually, look at "Normal:" for "Rapid Stunning" [CW]. It clearly stats that, ordinarily, you can only do one 'stunning-type' of attack per round. with Rapid Stunning, of course, you can do two. I would rule that [with Rapid Stunning] you could thusly combine Freezing the Lifeblood and Falling Star Strike (or Pain Touch, or .. what others are there? [Weakening Touch]) in a single strike, if you so chose. 'course, you run the risk of blowing two stun charges on one missed strike...
--Rooth
Originally posted by Ricter
How do you take tatooed monk without the endurance feat?
Umm, you don't? I couldn't find any reference on this thread that suggests you can qualify for tattooed monk w/o Endurance. The CW Tattooed Monk is the latest authority on the subject. I suppose there's a PrC out there or a race or something that gives you Endurance for free, but I don't know of any off-hand.
I'm doing this from memory, but I'm pretty sure you need improved unarmed strike(which you get for being a monk), knowledge religion(a cross class skill), endurance and improved grapple to be a tatooed monk.
Your memory is accurate, even if your spelling isn't. ;) (people spell "tattooed" so many different ways, it must make searching for info on this PrC a bear! :D)
Originally posted by ridcully52
... in the descriptions listed for freezing the lifeblood, falling star strike--I believe there are one or two others but I won't go into that--it says nothing about not being able to use the two of them together and it also fails to list a number of times a day you can do it.
FYI - this is corrected in the errata for Oriental Adventures. These two feats, plus Pain Touch and perhaps some others, use up stunning attacks (level times per day, for monks), and can only be done once per round.
Thanks
I suppose that means its time to go back and clean up the original post again.
Try doing it with and without template classes. Spells, magic items, and other potentially temporary effects don't count (they shouldn't, anyway, for PrC prerequisites--even permanent spells can be disjuncted [is that a word?]). Assume all ability score prerequisites are met. Any published source is applicable (Dungeon, Dragon, core, splat, OA, Monte Cook, etc).
I figure you can get another +1 from half-celestial, but beyond that (another +15) I dunno. There are some PrCs out there that give natural armor bonuses. Sustainable psionic powers can be included -- yes, they go away when your points are spent, but they come back the next day, automatically (versus permanent spells, which, once gone, require another application [expensive, might not be able to do it yourself, etc]). Feats, of course, are great. Is there an Improve Natural Armor out there? Thought I remembered seeing one.
Thoughts?
--Rooth
Skillful Monk
The Killer Combo
Monk 20
Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Death Blow, Improved Disarm*
Monk9 Freezing the Lifeblood
Monk12 Ability Focus (Freezing the Lifeblood)
Monk15 Rapid Stunning
Monk18 Pain Touch
Monk20 -
Freezing the Lifeblood was re-published in CW, it requires a minimum +10 BAB, so lvl 14 for a straight monk. Just rearrange the feats a little bit to look like this...
Skillful Monk
The Killer Combo
Monk 20
Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Death Blow, Improved Disarm*
Monk9 Rapid Stunning
Monk12 Pain Touch
Monk15 Freezing the Lifeblood
Monk18 Ability Focus (Freezing the Lifeblood)
Monk20 -
I just got this book and I love the idea of a Kensai, Krynnish Minotaur Monk!
I think a Krynn Minotaur Monk with MeanLiers Horned Lord PrC and the kensai PrC would be potent!
Any ideas on a lvl 25 build cause this is deffinately what I would like to play in my upcoming Epic campaign.?
Since the Quintessential series is not official dnd 'canon' my group basically places it offlimits unless asked. The main reason for this is because the quintessential series is ridculously overpowered.
feats
L1 Dodge
L1b Impr. Grapple or Stunning fist
L2b Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows
L3 Weapon focus (Unarmed Strike)
L5b Hammer Fist (RoF)
L6 Alertness
L7b Mobility
L9 Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
L9b Power Attack
L12 Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike, Claws of the Dragon)
L15 Elusive Target (CW)
L18 Sun School (CW)
Attack at level 20 using hammer fist
base 16/11/6/1
Damage 6d6 + 1.5 Str Bonus Crit 19-20/X3 slashing or blunt, count as magic weapons for DR
Attack at Level 20, Flurry of Blows (can flurry as a L9 monk)
base 16/16/16/11/6/1
Damage 6d6 +Str Bonus Crit 19-20/X3 slashing or blunt, count as magic weapons for DR
Final base saves at level 20, 17/15/12
UE: Unapproachable East
Drac: Draconomicon
Rof: Races of Faerun
CW: Complete Warrior
Originally posted by ridcully52
Concerning the quintessential Monk:
Since the Quintessential series is not official dnd 'canon' my group basically places it offlimits unless asked. The main reason for this is because the quintessential series is ridculously overpowered.
on what level? its no worse then some canon material. the 3rd party supplement overpowered argument is biased I think. You should just take what you like and disreagrd what you dont.
P.S. NOTHING in QM is anywhere near the power level of the FB or Dervish.
The PrCs are excessively difficult to enter and the only feat that really jumps out at me is Choose the Poison. Only in extreme minmax cases (Deadly Venoms Boxer w/ Break the Breath and Ability Focus) do you see anything that could be difficult to deal with. Others (such as the Iron Legs Kickboxer and the Mage Slayer) are useful, flavorful, and hardly unbalancing considering their prereqs.
...
Originally posted by newblar32
Ahh Peter it's not totally 3.5 complient ;) there's a tiny little error...
I hate you.
And that's "compliant".
back to the top for you. WHY can't we get this stickied?what about some info or opinions regarding Monk, VoP and Kensai ?
thanks, Mark
The Amulet of Natural Attacks basically allows you to freely buy everything a Kensai hopes to achieve by burning XP.
Now, the VoP Kensai is a special case. To be honest, I think the feat prereqs as a Monk are pretty rough. But, taking a few levels (and getting Power Surge and a few +s to hit) is a good idea. Exalted Spell Resistance will make sure that you don't lose any ground SR-wise, giving you 4 levels to play with. As well, 16 levels of Monk gives you the full Flurry, good damage, quivering palm for the occasional wizard, etc - basically all the really common monk fighting tricks.
In that 4 levels, I'd suggest a +1 Wounding Sweeping attack. If Vow of Nonviolence prevents you from taking Wounding, +1 GhostTouch Corrosive Sweeping attack is pretty nice too.
4 fighter levels get you 3 bonus feats, +1 progression in BAB and access to weapon specialization.
4 Kensai, see Mean's post above.
4 reaping Mauler, the counter grappling is awesome for the anti grappler and pro grappler.
Monk11/Five animals 5/ Reaping Mauler 4 will make you slick as a greased pig. with the bonuses from the 5 animals sinuous form, a vest of escape and max ranks in escape artist you can get your check in the 40's. not to mention SR 30, Stun DC 25 + WIS + ability focus + magic item. lots of good skills, bonuses to grapple added with a little Jotunbrud for flavor.
7 VoP monk/10 VoP Kensai,
you would go ..
16 VoP monk/4 VoP Kensai...
hmmmm
interesting..
but as VoP cant take the 'amulet of natural attacks'.
...
VoP Monk16/Kensai4 would be the max I would take it to. I wouldn't consider a Kensai in most other cases, though... hmm... I think I have to add a new build.
Originally posted by noneedfor1972
so instead of my planned..
7 VoP monk/10 VoP Kensai,
you would go ..
16 VoP monk/4 VoP Kensai...
hmmmm
interesting..
but as VoP cant take the 'amulet of natural attacks'.
you would get Exalted bonuses to your "to hit" and damage up to +5.
now on to my kids...
whoooooo
I await the build with anticipation...
I will work on mine and send it to you to see what you think...
Feats are fairly obvious due to requirements for Kensai
not like you or anyone has anything better to do then devote all time to this game of imagination and...ohh who am I kidding...we are all geeks and play this to appease ourselves towrds our lack of experience with women..
oohh btw..bump
What are you asking for...
Why would drow want to go to the surface though?
The sun hurts their eyes.
+2 INT and CHA are essentially useless for a monk. Spell Resistance is subsumed by Diamond Soul. The spell-like abilities are pathetic. And you're blinded by sunlight. Bleah.
I had thought of going VoP monk for first 7 lvls then on to VoP Kensai for the next 10...
wondering
the half orc paragon. it's a 3 level full BAB class with only one requirement: you must be a half-orc. at second level in the class you are granted the barbarian rage ability 1/day. of course an extra rage feat would bump that up to 3/day...
so monk 16/half-orc paragon 3/+1l BAB class/PrC 1 nets you a +16 BAB and rage along with the best flurry in the game. just an idea...
either way...just my 0.02 cp
'nuff said
Monk 8/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 4/Dervish 8
is pretty nice.
Ends up with Speed 65; unarmed Damage 1d12, AC Bonus Dex+Wis+3, BA +17, F +12, R+16, W +16, Darkvision, Dervish Dance 4/day, and can use Cleave and Spring Attack as if the feats had been purchased.
Monk 1--Imp. Unarmed Strike, Imp. Grapple, Dodge, Mobility (human feat).
Monk 2--Combat Reflexes
Monk 3--Alertness
Monk 6--Imp. Trip, Power Attack
Monk8
IofDM 9--Combat Expertise
IofDM12--Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Dervish 15--Imp Init
Dervish 18--Close-Quarters Fighting or Elusive Target.
Dervish 20
Note: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike fulfills the prerequisite for the Dervish levels only after the Claws of the Dragon is earned from IofDM level 3.
Human Monk 16/Fighter 4
1 Monk 1 Stunning Fist*, Ability Focus: SF, Improved Init.
2 Monk 2 Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk 3 Expert Tactician
4 Monk 4
5 Monk 5
6 Monk 6 Improved Disarm*
7 Monk 7
8 Monk 8
9 Monk 8/Fighter 1 Dodge, Mobility
10 Monk 8/Fighter 2 Spring Attack
11 Monk 8/Fighter 3
12 Monk 8/Fighter 4 Freezing the Lifeblood, Ability Focus: FtL
13 Monk 9/Fighter 4
14 Monk 10/Fighter 4
15 Monk 11/Fighter 4 Pain Touch
16 Monk 12/Fighter 4
17 Monk 13/Fighter 4
18 Monk 14/Fighter 4 Rapid Stunning
19 Monk 15/Fighter 4
20 Monk 16/Fighter 4
The fighter levels at just the right time get you Freezing the Lifeblood (with ability focus) almost as soon as a straight fighter, plus the bonus feats allow you enough breathing room to fit in the Spring Attack chain. Anyone have any suggestions for tweaking this a bit? I'm playing a berserker aiming for 90ish strength at 20th level (don't ask, I'll post something to the barbarian thread later ;)), so the idea with this guy was to set up punching bags for me to sink massive power attack into.
--Impeesa--
As far as tweaking the other feats goes, I could drop Expert Tactician and move Pain Touch to 3rd, and Rapid Stunning to 6th (I seem to have omitted his regular 6th level feat in the original build). That leaves two more slots open at higher levels. Thoughts?
--Impeesa--
Sucking up a full attack action does tickle the pooch, but waiting until level 12 to really execute devastating Stun-based attacks is a bit of a hassle. If you're going to pick up Ability Focus: stunning attack, milk it. Plus, there are plenty of things you can Stun that you can't FtL, so having Pain Touch just adds to the overall usefulness of the stun-as-tactic.
Rapid Stunning should HOPEFULLY prevent this guy from having to face too many unstunned opponents.
And it wouldn't hurt to ask the DM if you can sub in Rapid Stunning for Improved Disarm, as part of this monk's school or style.
The general idea is a raging unarmed fighter who is good at grappling, tripping, and unarmed charges. Using a reach weapon occasionally is nice also, and you have profiency with all martial weapons and can use them with your flurry of blows via Shou Disciple. Singh Rager has the very nice Great Ki Shout with a +4 to the save DC, and the ability to make a full attack on a charge.
The worst thing about this build is it's MAD. You need Str and Cha 13, and Cha is usually a dump stat for monk builds. However, you can actually use Wisdom as a dump for this build, because you aren't taking Stunning Fist and you can wear light armor and not lose much at all. With this build, you can also wear a monk's belt and get a monk's tattoo and have the base unarmed damage of a level 20 monk at level 15.
1 Monk1 Dodge, Jotunbrud, IUS (monk), Improved Grapple (monk)
2 Monk2 Iron Will* (monk), evasion (monk)
3 Monk3 Wpn Focus: Unarmed Strike
6 Monk6 Improved Trip (monk), Ki Shout
7 Shou1
8 Shou2 Power Attack (bonus)
9 Singh1 Wolf Berzerker*
10 Singh2
11 Singh3
12 Singh4 Flying Kick
13 Shou3
14 Shou4 Bonus Feat (OPEN)
15 Shou 5 Knockdown
16+ Finish Singh Rager? There are lots of options. Akodo Champion looks pretty dang good, except for that Wpn Focus: Katana prereq. And it is another Lion Clan PrC, so there is no RP conflict, either. Palladin would be as good, though, if they exist in the campaign. Either of these would allow you to get more use out of that Charisma you have. If you go Palladin, you could get the Divine Might feat and add it to damage and saves.
*Used Oriental Adventures rules on monk bonus feats. The build also assumes that your DM will let the Singh Rager's Fury count as Rage for the Wolf Berzerker feat.
Sourcebooks used: Shou Disciple and Wolf Berzerker are from the Unapproachable East. Flying Kick is from Oriental Adventures and the 3.5 version is in the Complete Warrior. Knockdown is from Sword and Fist. Jotunbrud is from Races of Faerun. Singh Rager and Ki Shout are also from Oriental Adventures.
Edit: Guess I should have listed some more tangible benefits for this build. Your trip bonus will be 12 (Jotunbrud, WolfZerker, ImpTrip) + your strength mod (which will be high from raging). Your grapple will be 8 + Str + BAB (which is 18 at level 20 if you finish the build with full BAB classes). The average HD for what's posted so far is d10, and would be higher if you finished Singh Rager, which has a d12 HD. You can make a full attack during a charge at 12th level with the build. You get bonus feats from Shou Disciple and the ability to flurry with any martial weapon. Your fists do anywhere from 2d6 to 2d10, depending on if you get the monk's belt and monk's tatoo. And your saves will all be pretty good.
Originally posted by kit
I was wonder what book and exact page number do I find the "Improved Natural Attack" feat description?
It's in the Monster Manual and the SRD under Monster Feats. Here it is:
IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
My GM wants to see it for himself in blank and white.
--Impeesa--
1 Monk 1 Stunning Fist*, Ability Focus: SF, Improved Init.
2 Monk 2 Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk 3 Pain Touch
4 Monk 4
5 Monk 5
6 Monk 6 Improved Disarm*, Expert Tactician
7 Monk 7
8 Monk 8
9 Monk 8/Fighter 1 Dodge, Rapid Stunning
10 Monk 8/Fighter 2 Mobility
11 Monk 8/Fighter 3
12 Monk 8/Fighter 4 Freezing the Lifeblood, Spring Attack
13 Monk 9/Fighter 4
14 Monk 10/Fighter 4
15 Monk 11/Fighter 4 Ability Focus: FtL
16 Monk 12/Fighter 4
17 Monk 13/Fighter 4
18 Monk 14/Fighter 4 --?
19 Monk 15/Fighter 4
20 Monk 16/Fighter 4
Not sure what to wrap up with. Maybe Death Blow (dropped from the original front-page skillful monk build), something fancy like Karmic Strike, or maybe just utility with Extra Stunning. I originally dropped Death Blow first because in the party we'll be using this build in, the other two regular players are a planned berserker (me), and a rogue. Anything helpless opponent open for a coup de gras will be in a world of hurt already, I don't know how much Death Blow would contribute at that level. Might still be useful for the general build though.
--Impeesa--
1st: Improved Initiative, Unbalancing Strike (Human Bonus Feat), Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat)
2nd: Combat Reflexes (Monk Bonus Feat)
3nd: Expert Tacitician (2nd Feat)
6th: Imp. Grapple, First Tattooed Monk level
9th: Open Feat Slot
12th: Pain Touch
14th: Last Tattooed Monk level
15th: Open Feat Slot, Weakening Touch (Monk Bonus Feat) or Lightning Fists (Monk Bonus Feat)
18th: Open Feat Slot
Tattoo’s: Tiger, Wasp, Lion, Pine, Last Tattoo Slot Open
Monk(4), Sorc(1)
AC 16
HP 36 (We have a favourable House Rule about HPs)
STR 15
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 9
WIS 18 (+1 From lvl 4 bonus)
CHA 11 (just enough for Sorc)
Skills 30
Feats 5 (See Below)
Saves 5/6/10
BAB 3
Flurry 1 1
Damage Die 1d8
Feats:
1. [Monk1]Break the Breath (+2DC on Stunning Attack), Dodge, Stunning Fist / Unarmed Strike / Flurry of Blows
2. [Monk 2]Combat Reflexes / Evasion
3. [Monk 3]Pain Touch / Still Mind
4. [Monk 4]Ki Strike / Slow Fall
5. [Sorc 1]Sorc Spells - Mage Armour & Enlarge
I'd have loved to take Expert Tactition, but it requires BAB+3 which I dont get till lvl 4 (after my feats) I'll take it at lvl 6:
6. [DD] Expert Tactition, +1 AC
7. [DD] +2 Str, CCB (DM doesnt like using them as Unarmed Attacks =/)
8. [DD] Breath Weapon, +1 Dex ?
9. [DD] Circle Kick ? +2 Str, +1 AC
10. [Monk 5] Purity of Body
This creates a really strong char at lvl 10, AC20, HP's averaging 72 with an adjusted (Str) Flurry of attacks at: 9/9/4/4/4/4 (without Multiattack). Enlarging this doesnt help the "to hit" as the Str bonus is countered by the size modifier, but the increase in damage is in the region of 15%. (According to my Excel sheet
)Let me know what you think, especially on feats & spells
Thanks,
Valor.
Originally posted by Impeesa
Simple variation on the skillful monk that I threw together for a friend in a game we just started:
Human Monk 16/Fighter 4
1 Monk 1 Stunning Fist*, Ability Focus: SF, Improved Init.
2 Monk 2 Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk 3 Expert Tactician
4 Monk 4
5 Monk 5
6 Monk 6 Improved Disarm*
7 Monk 7
8 Monk 8
9 Monk 8/Fighter 1 Dodge, Mobility
10 Monk 8/Fighter 2 Spring Attack
11 Monk 8/Fighter 3
12 Monk 8/Fighter 4 Freezing the Lifeblood, Ability Focus: FtL
Problem: I think the prerequisite for Ability Focus is that you have the ability to focus. Since you don't have the ability before you hit 8/4, I don't think you can focus in it. It's kinda like if there was a prestige class that had a prerequisite of 15 ranks of ... bluff. Since your max ranks is level+3, at level 11 you'd have 14. That's not enough to qualify for the PrC as your next level. You'd have to increase a rank to 15 at 12th level, and then you could take the 1st level PrC at 13th level. Another example would be the Dragon Diciple (well, in 3.0) PrC -- you need to be able to cast 3rd level Sorcerer spells. You don't get 3rd level Sorcerer spells until 6th level, so you couldn't take your 1st level of the PrC until 7th level.
Note: I may be wrong! Please cite source if I am.
Something else -- Spring Attack is not the end-all be-all of avoiding melee damage, as I found out the hard way. A bad guy tracked me down, got me when I was by myself. I tried spring-attacking him until I was able to stun him, or at least throw damage at him, but there was a problem -- he kept holding an action to attack me when I got into range. This foils Spring Attack! Though, admittedly, he can only do that every other round, not every round. First round: he holds action. I spring, he hits me, I hit him, and spring back. Now his initiative is right after mine. Second round: I spring, hit him, spring back. He holds action. 3rd round: just like 1st round.
[edit] Correction -- His initiative should have been just ahead of mine, not behind mine. Which means as long as all he did was ready an action to hit me (and move, if he so chose), we would always exchange blows equally. [/edit]
Ordinarily, trading two blows for one is a good deal. Unless the target is a high-level blinking rogue with a ridiculous AC. I miss at best half the time (more like "I hit 2.5% of the time, since I only hit on a 20, and half of those are negated), he hits 80% of the time (more like 40%, since he needed an 11 to hit me), and oh, he sneak attacks every time. I should have been able to nullify that sneak attackness with some sort of concealment (displacement, etc), or one of two ways that allow me to see the blinking target in both phases of blinking: (a) see invisible, or (b) being ethereal myself with empty body (which I did - but we didn't play it out right). Your average monk won't be able to go ethereal, though, since it's a pretty high level ability.
Dazzit.
Originally posted by Impeesa
1 Monk 1 Stunning Fist*, Ability Focus: SF, Improved Init.
2 Monk 2 Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk 3 Pain Touch
4 Monk 4
5 Monk 5
6 Monk 6 Improved Disarm*, Expert Tactician
7 Monk 7
8 Monk 8
9 Monk 8/Fighter 1 Dodge, Rapid Stunning
10 Monk 8/Fighter 2 Mobility
11 Monk 8/Fighter 3
12 Monk 8/Fighter 4 Freezing the Lifeblood, Spring Attack
13 Monk 9/Fighter 4
14 Monk 10/Fighter 4
15 Monk 11/Fighter 4 Ability Focus: FtL
16 Monk 12/Fighter 4
17 Monk 13/Fighter 4
18 Monk 14/Fighter 4 --?
19 Monk 15/Fighter 4
20 Monk 16/Fighter 4
Something that seems odd to me is a build that focuses on an effective Stunning Fist that also takes Improved Disarm at 6th level. When you stun them, they drop their weapon. By taking ID, you aren't expanding your repertoire. Improved Trip seems to make more sense to me in a build like this, if for no other reason than to give you more options.
As for improved trip/disarm - disarm does not consume stunning fist useage, and a monk will suck at tripping (average BAB, average str, generally no more than an enlarge person for size advantage).
--Impeesa--
A Disarming Quarterstaff is alright though. Large with bonuses to Disarm. But basically Imp Trip/Disarm are niche feats that this build doesnt really explore.
Originally posted by mean_liar
More to the point, theres a good chance the monk won't be able to do either.
A Disarming Quarterstaff is alright though. Large with bonuses to Disarm. But basically Imp Trip/Disarm are niche feats that this build doesnt really explore.
You can't stun vampire mages with wands of I Hate You. But you can sure take their wand away pretty easily, with Imp. Disarm.
Golems with swords, Shintao with staves .. lots of stuff can't be stunned, so disarming is a good alternative. Remember, you can also disarm stuff people loosely wear, like head gear, cloaks, robes, and things people hold that are not weapons, like wands and magic staves and rods and the like -- and it's a LOT easier to do!Anyway, I thought that the 6th level feat choices for the monk-feats were pretty limited -- Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. Take your pick. Until they come out with a feat like, I dunno, Judo Trip, that allows you to use your dex for tripping, I'd go with Disarm every time (if only I could go back in time!).
Do note, though: there's a Dragon magazine out there with a 5-level monk PrC "Monk of the Enabled Hand" that gives you some pretty butt-kickin' disarming abilities at 4th level, plus a pseudo Karmic Strike ability (that's always active--instead of -4 on your AC, you're -5 on your karmic AoOs).
The "Undying Stance" monk type gets endurance as a monk bonus feat, a bonus to concentration, and dr 2/- at level 6 (pretty much whenever attacking ).
Of course, you also get toughness and diehard as bonus feats, but I think the 2/- DR more than makes up for it, and you can take the improved DR feat to get 3/- later on. Ok, you lose stunning fist, so you probably should concentrate on raw damage dealing.
Originally posted by rooth
You can't stun vampire mages with wands of I Hate You. But you can sure take their wand away pretty easily, with Imp. Disarm.
Anyway, I thought that the 6th level feat choices for the monk-feats were pretty limited -- Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. Take your pick. Until they come out with a feat like, I dunno, Judo Trip, that allows you to use your dex for tripping, I'd go with Disarm every time (if only I could go back in time!).
Just to be clear, you can still disarm without the feat. You can still snatch items as well, you just don't get the +4. Probably the biggest drawback is the AOO though and could be the biggest reason to stick with ID. You can also trip without IT with a trip weapon and even loose the AOO. The only thing is that it's harder to get bonuses for trip than disarm. It's pretty much a toss-up and depends quite a bit on abilities. If it's a 1/2 Orc monk with a 20 STR, I think IT could be pretty useful. If you're more of a Dex monk, then ID is the better option.
In any case, you won't catch my monk trying to disarm or trip that Golem with the sword.
Originally posted by Justicesays
The VoP Monk / Kensai gets a further boost with the introduction of the variant monks.
No, it doesn't. More options does not necessarily equal a boost. Some might be fun to play, but "Pain Touch" is a boost; losing your best feats for a +2 skill check is not.
Originally posted by ValorSoft
Human (5)
Monk(4), Sorc(1)
Feats:
1. [Monk1]Break the Breath (+2DC on Stunning Attack), Dodge, Stunning Fist / Unarmed Strike / Flurry of Blows
2. [Monk 2]Combat Reflexes / Evasion
3. [Monk 3]Pain Touch / Still Mind
4. [Monk 4]Ki Strike / Slow Fall
5. [Sorc 1]Sorc Spells - Mage Armour & Enlarge
I'd have loved to take Expert Tactition, but it requires BAB+3 which I dont get till lvl 4 (after my feats) I'll take it at lvl 6:
6. [DD] Expert Tactition, +1 AC
7. [DD] +2 Str, CCB (DM doesnt like using them as Unarmed Attacks =/)
8. [DD] Breath Weapon, +1 Dex ?
9. [DD] Circle Kick ? +2 Str, +1 AC
10. [Monk 5] Purity of Body
This creates a really strong char at lvl 10, AC20, HP's averaging 72 with an adjusted (Str) Flurry of attacks at: 9/9/4/4/4/4 (without Multiattack). Enlarging this doesnt help the "to hit" as the Str bonus is countered by the size modifier, but the increase in damage is in the region of 15%. (According to my Excel sheet
Let me know what you think, especially on feats & spells
Thanks,
Valor.
Anyone? =/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Impeesa
1 Monk 1 Stunning Fist*, Ability Focus: SF, Improved Init.
2 Monk 2 Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk 3 Pain Touch
4 Monk 4
5 Monk 5
6 Monk 6 Improved Disarm*, Expert Tactician
7 Monk 7
8 Monk 8
9 Monk 8/Fighter 1 Dodge, Rapid Stunning
10 Monk 8/Fighter 2 Mobility
11 Monk 8/Fighter 3
12 Monk 8/Fighter 4 Freezing the Lifeblood, Spring Attack
13 Monk 9/Fighter 4
14 Monk 10/Fighter 4
15 Monk 11/Fighter 4 Ability Focus: FtL
16 Monk 12/Fighter 4
17 Monk 13/Fighter 4
18 Monk 14/Fighter 4 --?
19 Monk 15/Fighter 4
20 Monk 16/Fighter 4
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Ummm.... I may have missed something in this thread earlier, but I was unaware that Monks could multi-class freely into another class and then progress as Monk again unless it specifically says that somewhere in the as a disclaimer to the class (usually a PrC) or some hidden passage in the PHB...
My quesion is, what is more valuble to a 1st level (or even higher) Monk - Strength or Con? I'm happy with the other ability scores (all good stats), but I have a 12 and a 17 left.
Should I go with the extra Hit/Damage, or the extra Hit Points?
Grey
'There is no small personal problem that cannot be solved with a suitible application of High Explosives'
Originally posted by GreyWanderer
If this has been covered previously, I appologize.
My quesion is, what is more valuble to a 1st level (or even higher) Monk - Strength or Con? I'm happy with the other ability scores (all good stats), but I have a 12 and a 17 left.
Should I go with the extra Hit/Damage, or the extra Hit Points?
I'd say strength, but it depends on how high your dex is and if you're taking weapon finesse.
All excellent scores. I really want to keep the others where they are, so that leaves Strength and Con.
I was going with Stunning Fist, Improved Intiative, and still pondering the last one (he's human).
Could be Weapon finesse, Weapon Focus, or Blindfighting.
Suggesions?
Grey.
'There is no small personal problem that cannot be solved with a suitible application of High Explosives'
Originally posted by GreyWanderer
18 Wis, 17 Dex, 16 Int, 12 Cha.
All excellent scores. I really want to keep the others where they are, so that leaves Strength and Con.
I was going with Stunning Fist, Improved Intiative, and still pondering the last one (he's human).
Could be Weapon finesse, Weapon Focus, or Blindfighting.
Suggesions?
Grey.
'There is no small personal problem that cannot be solved with a suitible application of High Explosives'
17 str, 17 dex, 16 con, 12 int, 18 wis, 12 chr
no point in Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus is alright but you could do better. Look at Mean Liars builds in the beginning page.
Originally posted by maven50312
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Impeesa
1 Monk 1 Stunning Fist*, Ability Focus: SF, Improved Init.
2 Monk 2 Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk 3 Pain Touch
4 Monk 4
5 Monk 5
6 Monk 6 Improved Disarm*, Expert Tactician
7 Monk 7
8 Monk 8
9 Monk 8/Fighter 1 Dodge, Rapid Stunning
10 Monk 8/Fighter 2 Mobility
11 Monk 8/Fighter 3
12 Monk 8/Fighter 4 Freezing the Lifeblood, Spring Attack
13 Monk 9/Fighter 4
14 Monk 10/Fighter 4
15 Monk 11/Fighter 4 Ability Focus: FtL
16 Monk 12/Fighter 4
17 Monk 13/Fighter 4
18 Monk 14/Fighter 4 --?
19 Monk 15/Fighter 4
20 Monk 16/Fighter 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ummm.... I may have missed something in this thread earlier, but I was unaware that Monks could multi-class freely into another class and then progress as Monk again unless it specifically says that somewhere in the as a disclaimer to the class (usually a PrC) or some hidden passage in the PHB...
Certain FR schools of monks, any OA monk, and any monk in a generic campaign with an even remotely lenient DM can multiclass freely.
--Impeesa--
Originally posted by ValorSoft
Human (5)
Monk(4), Sorc(1)
AC 16
HP 36 (We have a favourable House Rule about HPs)
STR 15
DEX 15
CON 13
INT 9
WIS 18 (+1 From lvl 4 bonus)
CHA 11 (just enough for Sorc)
Skills 30
Feats 5 (See Below)
Saves 5/6/10
BAB 3
Flurry 1 1
Damage Die 1d8
Feats:
1. [Monk1]Break the Breath (+2DC on Stunning Attack), Dodge, Stunning Fist / Unarmed Strike / Flurry of Blows
2. [Monk 2]Combat Reflexes / Evasion
3. [Monk 3]Pain Touch / Still Mind
4. [Monk 4]Ki Strike / Slow Fall
5. [Sorc 1]Sorc Spells - Mage Armour & Enlarge
I'd have loved to take Expert Tactition, but it requires BAB+3 which I dont get till lvl 4 (after my feats) I'll take it at lvl 6:
6. [DD] Expert Tactition, +1 AC
7. [DD] +2 Str, CCB (DM doesnt like using them as Unarmed Attacks =/)
8. [DD] Breath Weapon, +1 Dex ?
9. [DD] Circle Kick ? +2 Str, +1 AC
10. [Monk 5] Purity of Body
This creates a really strong char at lvl 10, AC20, HP's averaging 72 with an adjusted (Str) Flurry of attacks at: 9/9/4/4/4/4 (without Multiattack). Enlarging this doesnt help the "to hit" as the Str bonus is countered by the size modifier, but the increase in damage is in the region of 15%. (According to my Excel sheet
Let me know what you think, especially on feats & spells
Thanks,
Valor.
I really don't see the draw for the DD. If you're looking for the strength boost, why not play a race with a strength bonus? The natural weapons you gain don't compair to the monk's damage either.
A 1/2 Ogre Monk 9 would do nicely. You wouldn't need to take the sorcerer level to gain enlarge because you already are, and Mage Armor is only good until you can afford bracers +5 anyway. You would have a much better strength and dish out massive damage, better BAB, better monk abilities, etc. Just plain better.
BTW, how did you come up with 6 attacks anyway(9/9/4/4/4/4)? Is that 3 flurries, bite, claw, claw? I don't think that's how it works. You can't attack with a guisarme from your hands and then do a full flurry that same round, so why would this work? I would rule that you can either use your hands for claw attacks or flurry and that you can't do both. Even if you could, your BAB is only +6 and -1 for flurry so that's (5/5/0/1/1/1) without multi attack.
Also, you can't go back to Monk at level 10, you've disrupted your advancement with both Sorcerer and DD.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188301
Only Core races are an option.
Monks can freely Multiclass.
There is also a discussion there about how many attacks I would get.
Valor.
Originally posted by Femur Toothpick
I really don't see the draw for the DD. If you're looking for the strength boost, why not play a race with a strength bonus? The natural weapons you gain don't compair to the monk's damage either.
I think its a flavor thing. They're not overpowering as-presented, but in theory with a high-powered Amulet of Natural Attacks with a Monk's Tattoo and Monk's Belt you can do more damage as compared to a normal monk, so long as you manage to get to level 11 Monk for the extra unarmed attack.
BTW, how did you come up with 6 attacks anyway(9/9/4/4/4/4)? Is that 3 flurries, bite, claw, claw? I don't think that's how it works. You can't attack with a guisarme from your hands and then do a full flurry that same round, so why would this work? I would rule that you can either use your hands for claw attacks or flurry and that you can't do both. Even if you could, your BAB is only +6 and -1 for flurry so that's (5/5/0/1/1/1) without multi attack.
You're half right. He can't flurry with his HANDS and execute claw attacks, but there's nothing restricting him to using only his HANDS. He can flurry with kicks, knees, and (DMs call) elbows) and still use his claws. Several creatures in the MM do variations on this - basically as long as the limb is free you can use it to make your natural attacks.
I calculate his attacks as +6 BAB, -1 for Flurry, +4 from STR (which I would raise to 20 by way of level 4 or 8 stat advances), for +9/9/4, 4/4/4.
Your DM is right in that those natural attacks are not considered unarmed strikes.
I'm getting tired of posting this. But I'll do it again as a public service. I'd definately consider getting the TWF chain with any monk I had.
Click for TWFing monks.
Cheers
S-10
D-20 (base 16, VoP+4)
C-17 (base 14, Level+1, VoP+2)
I - 10 (base 10)
W - 26 (base 18, Vop+6, Saint +2)
Ch-16 (base 10, Level +2, Saint +4)
Decent Saves, 14/16/17 I beleive, and 143HP.
Feat Progression
Human - Sacred Vow
L1 - VoP
M1 - StunningFist
E1 - Nymphs Kiss
M2 - Combat Reflexes
E2 - Intutive Strike (wis bonus to hit)
C3 - Weapon Focus - Unarmed Strike
E4 - Nimbus of Light
E6 - Holy Radiance
C6 - Combat Expertise
M6 - Improved Disarm
E8 - Touch of Golden Ice
C9 - Improved Natural Attack
E10 - Sanctify Ki Strike
E12 - Sanctify Martial Strike
C12 - Ability Focus (Touch of Golden Ice +2)
E14 - Sanctify Unarmed Strike
ToGI DC is 18 (base 14, +2 for Saint, +2 for ToGI) whereas Stunning Fist is 25 (Base 10, 13 Monk levels, +2 for Saint)
AC is currently 45, with +8 due to 26 wis, +5 due to Dex, +7 from Saint, and then the lesser VoP stuff.
BAB is only 9, but to-hit is +21/+21/+21/+16 due to high wis, Saint Boni, etc.
Currently, Damage per attack is 3D6+3 raw damage (2D6 normal, improved natural attack 3D6), vs. Evil is 5D6+3 (3D6 as above, +2D6 Saint, +1 for each sanctify), vs. Evil Outsider, is 3D6+2D8+3D4 (3d6 as above, 2D8 Saint, 3D4, one per sanctify)
PLUS Touch of Golden ice (-D6, -2D6 Dex dmg) effect each attack...
Here is the question... should I have selected Touch of Golden ice or Stunning Fist for the Ability Focus, or another feat at Character Level 13 (the only one DM is allowing me to change)? And if so what to?
Oh, and accepting general Comments also pls...
Touch of Golden Ice DC doesn't scale with level and therefore raising it now only means it becomes obsolete a little bit later. Never take a DC increase as a feat on any static DC ability.
Why Combat Expertise?
I only got Saint AFTER I leveled... I made my sacrifice to my group and didnt get the Saint AC bonus until then, so thought I needed defense.... silly me.....
OK switching to Stunning Blow...
Thanks, and I wouldnt mind any other advice for the completion of the character, as I already have many of the L20 and L19 benefits from Saint... what do you think I should do?
Also has anyone done a successful Sorcerer/Monk combination, especially using the Master of the East Winds?
Thanks!
A good example is Knockdown. I don't find it particularly useful for Medium-sized monks as there are better feats available. However, the Large +4 to Trip makes it more attractive.
In general, creature race or templates don't alter feat choices, it only delays acquisition of abilities due to ECL. I'd probably make a Feral MineralWarrior HalfMinotaur Dwarf the same as I'd make a HalfOrc monk, the only difference being their effective levels.
...
And I find spellcasting monks to be weak multiclasses, even compared to how weak Fighter/Mages are generally. And I definitely wasn't impressed by the Four Winds PrCs, though they were flavorful.
Core
Complete Warrior
Unearthed Arcana (traits, but no flaws)
All FR Books
Book of Exalted Deeds
No 3.0 splat books or 3rd party supplemental books, I also don't think I can use the feats from the Monster Manual
We are allowed 32 points for the build, I was thinking of the Vow of Poverty route, for both mechanical boosts and RP value. Will probably go human for the extra feat and skills.
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 15
CHA 14 (4th level ability boost used here to access some exalted feats)
1 Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss
2 Monk2 Combat Reflexes, Nimbus of Light
3 Monk3 Dodge
4 Monk4 Holy Radiance
5 Monk5
6 Monk6 Improved Trip, Defensive Throw, Intuitive Attack
7 Monk7
8 Monk8 Gift of Faith
9 Monk9/Shou1 Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
10 Monk9/Shou2 Sanctify Ki Strike, Mobility?
11 Monk9/Shou3
12 Monk9/Shou4 Holy Ki Strike, Spring Attack?, Freeze the Lifeblood
13 Monk10/Shou4
14 Monk11/Shou4
I was thinking of trying to qualify for Kensai (use one of the alternate feat chains in UA that has Combat Expertise in it) but I don't think it's worth the effort. I was originally thinking of making him a dwarf for the extra bonus if a trip fails, but the speed loss and feat loss was too harsh.
Any thoughts on this? Is trip really effective? I think defensive throw is a great feat but never see it mentioned...
Thanks for the help.
Defensive Throw works, at best, once a round. Ability Focus (stunning attack) or Pain Touch will prevent him from attacking you at all, rather than have you hoping he misses.
I'm thinking in particular the effects on the non-Jotunbrud powerful combat monks that use US + ET and other things to give AoOs and trips.
Use a Sparring Dummy of the Masters
What is this and wot does it do?
Which means you can take a 10ft step and make you're full attack instead of a 5 ft step. This also prevents attacks of opportunity when entering a threatened area as long as you only make the 10ft step. Nifty for the cost, but I think a 35 tumble DC check does the same thing.
How would you rearrange your feat selection for the Skillful Monk if you wanted to take Cosmopolitian (Use Magic Device) at first level?
Skillful Monk
The Killer Combo
Monk 20
Monk1 Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Attack*, Improved Initiative, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Death Blow, Improved Disarm*
Monk9 Rapid Stunning
Monk12 Pain Touch
Monk15 Freezing the Lifeblood
Monk18 Ability Focus (Freezing the Lifeblood)
Originally posted by BigRed1
WIS bonus to damage please? I cant find it anywhere....
Page 1 of this thread by Mean Liar:
Special mention goes out to the Shou Disciples, Sacred Fists and the Shiba Protector. Sacred Fist works well as a Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist (search for my less-than-popular Sacred Fist build), and Shiba Protector is a one-level-dip PrC that gives WIS bonus to hit and damage, though the feat cost is very steep.
Originally posted by maven50312
It's out of the Arms and Equipment Guide. It's a item that costs like 35k or so and you have to practice with it for roughly 4-8 weeks I think. Whether or not the above is correct (I doubt it is, haven't looked at Arms and Equip Guide in a while) the bottomline is that when you're through, you can make 10ft adjustments instead of 5ft adjustments.
There is an extended table in the Oriental Adventures that allows a high tumble roll (DC 40 I think) to allow a 10' step. Question is: what do you do on a failure? In our campaign, Wayne's World, we're ruling that you only move 5'--if you have actions left, you may continue moving, but then the whole move is considered a move action.
Which means you can take a 10ft step and make you're full attack instead of a 5 ft step. This also prevents attacks of opportunity when entering a threatened area as long as you only make the 10ft step.
Shouldn't that say "prevents AoO when leaving a threatened square"? Entering a threatened square doesn't usually provoke an AoO, under 3.0 or 3.5.
Nifty for the cost, but I think a 35 tumble DC check does the same thing.
Actually, it's 40, at least in the OA. I haven't seen that particular feature reprinted anywhere else. 35 allows you to stand up from being prone as a free action.
Originally posted by BigRed1
WIS bonus to damage please? I cant find it anywhere....
Shiba Protector, apparently, though I think that's from the Quintessential Monk book. If you're sticking to the WotC cores, you're out of luck. There's an Epic monk prestige class that gives you +WIS to damage (in addition to your strength) at 2nd level in the class. It's called Perfected One, and can be found in Dragon Magazine #297, pg 56. (If you ever find yourself entering into epic-ness as a monk, this PrC is a winner--bonus epic feats at 3rd, 6th, 9th, stat-enhancing abilities, saving throw enhancements from multiple stats, automatic heal, automatic free action, automatic mind blank, and foresight--all this, and it's fairly easy to qualify for at 21st level).
Is there anyway you could break down the damage your draconic monk does by level? I've come up with a different number than you so I need to verify that I am doing it correctly.
Thanks,
Toasdy
oh and bump
I've been playing this character for several years now, and she's just about to hit her first Epic level. I really only planned her out (feat-selection-wise) through 20th, so I'm not sure where to go from here, and thus am willing to set the 'character' aside, and make some meta-game decisions. I never really intended to min/max her to any extent: I enjoyed roleplaying her, and certain min/max choices just didn't make sense, even when they were known and available. Also keep in mind that since I've been playing her since like '98, so many rules changes since then resulted in some perhaps questionable combos.
Given:
- monks can freely multiclass after 20th
- 1/2 dragon template is an option (per WotC web pub). Basically, requires investing 3 xp levels, distributing the bennies. I'd really like to do this, despite the cost, as I can't imagine ever getting to play a 'dragon' in any other campaign. But, if a non-dragon solution is attractive enough ...
- Savage Species is basically off-limits (the important parts, anyway)
- Improved Natural Attack is treated as a Monster Feat -- 1/2 dragon template would count as qualifying, maybe, but if I go that path, claw attacks would be claw damage, not monk damage--I'd rather have monk unarmed damage with claws, I think
- 3rd party sources off-limits; all WotC pubs are OK (with above caveats)
- TWF would not allow 15/15/15/10/5,10/10/10 unarmed/claw combo (I never really could understand how that conclusion came about, anyway--couldn't find any MM dudes that did anything like this, but I might not be looking in the right places--regardless, don't think DM would allow it, out of a sense of balance)
The monk as she stands now, without magic:
- Str 14, Dex 25, Con 15, Wis 18, Int 12 (soon to be 13), Cha 10
- all 20 levels are monk
- Weapon Finesse: Unarmed, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Improved Trip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Falling Star Strike, Freeze Lifeblood [Meditation of War: Weapon Focus Quarterstaff], Combat Reflexes
- Favorite Weapon (besides unarmed): Intelligent lajatang named Ironclaw: +4 keen/ki focus/chaotic outsider bane // +4 ki focus / wounding
- Important skill: Concentration is at 15 ranks (needs to be 24 for PO)
I've been looking at lots and lots of options (far too many - go here to see the mostly-complete collection of options -- Hidecarved just looks so cool, but +20 natural armor would be virtually impossible). Red Avenger has strong story motivation. We've built a 3.5 version of the RA--email me for info. RA levels are not a necessity, just a niceity.
I'm looking for a plan to take me to Effective Lvl 43 (char level 40 with 1/2 dragon). The campaign mightn't last that long, but y'never know. Why 43? 'cause the DM is likely to ascend us near the end, which is a +7 lvl template, as he's writing it, and '50' is sorta the working end-point.
My current plan looks like this. Critique away:
- Epic feats, in no particular order: Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, Reflect Arrows, (eff. immune to ranged attacks) Epic Ki Strike, Keen Strike, Vorpal Strike (very dangerous melee), .... ?
- Non-Epic feats (from classes, we hope): Improved Critical: Unarmed (for Keen Strike), Combat Expertise (prereq), Lightning Reflexes (5 Stars Mastery)
- Levels: 2 Ftr, 3 1/2 dragon, 2 RA, 10 Perfected One, 6 ... ?
- Skills: probably center on Tumble, Listen, Jump, Conc
'course, anyone else is welcome to chime in, too.
Originally posted by Toasdy
Is there anyway you could break down the damage your draconic monk does by level? I've come up with a different number than you so I need to verify that I am doing it correctly.
Levels 1-5 advance in Monk damage as per a normal monk. At level 6 you acquire Improved Natural Attack and do 2d6 as per a Large monk from now on. At levels 7-11 you advance as a Large monk due to the stacking of Shou Disciple and Monk levels to determine unarmed damage: this culminates in 2d8 damage at 11th level. At 12th level you acquire Empty Hand Mastery, which increases your damage as if you increased in size, to 3d8. I assume this is what you missed.
Between 13th and 20th level, you acquire the following benefits:
Fanged Ring. Adds a size category to Monk attacks.
Monk's Belt. Adds +5 levels to Monk unarmed damage.
Monk's Tattoo. Adds +4 levels to Monk unarmed damage.
(imp die step) x2 from Draconic Monk.
The Monk's Belt and Monk's Tattoo take you to 20th level. Thats a base of 2d10 damage. Imp Nat Atk, Empty Hand Mastery and the Fanged Ring increase your damage for 3 size steps to 8d8. The two draconic die increases take you to 8d12. If you can manage to Enlarge yourself you increase in size one step, making your unarmed attacks do 12d12.
Originally posted by rooth
Heay, mean_liar, I've got a little 'epic' challenge for ya, since I don't see much discussion bleeding into the epic side of the house.
Epic is a pain in the rear and I'm not keen on finding an optimal choice. Sorry. I can offer you generic build points to keep in mind, but doing an additional 30 levels for a character halfway done with an influential set of house rules doesn't catch my interest enough.
By that level, the flavor of the campaign is such that I imagine any spellcasters with Epic spellcasting and a creative mind will slowly take over the campaign anyway. I would personally take Leadership + Epic Leadership and design a bunch of faithful spellcasting cohorts who buff you with as-yet-unpublished Epic spells. This will help to keep you State-of-the-Art when your mates start bending time and space.
In minmax terms, you could make a play for Legendary Grappler and Dire Charge (+ Mantis Leap + Flying Kick + etc), but the lack of impressive Epic options makes it a hard go for the Epic Monk.
The lajatang is sweet. Increase the to-hit bonus and make it Wrathful Healing + Valorous + Metalline/Sure Striking.
By the way, as a HalfDragon WITHOUT TWF you do the listed +15/15/15/10/5,10/10/10 attack routine assuming you perform only leg sweeps, kicks, and knees with your unarmed attacks.
Originally posted by mean_liar
Epic is a pain in the rear and I'm not keen on finding an optimal choice. Sorry. I can offer you generic build points to keep in mind, but doing an additional 30 levels for a character halfway done with an influential set of house rules doesn't catch my interest enough.
Understandable. Heck, I'm living in it, and having a hard time making a decision about it. ;)
By that level, the flavor of the campaign is such that I imagine any spellcasters with Epic spellcasting and a creative mind will slowly take over the campaign anyway. I would personally take Leadership + Epic Leadership and design a bunch of faithful spellcasting cohorts who buff you with as-yet-unpublished Epic spells. This will help to keep you State-of-the-Art when your mates start bending time and space.
Heh! Yeah, an hontorage would be handy. ;) At around 16th level, roughly when 3.5 came out and had druids to gain the 'animal' type when wild shaped .. the druid pretty much took over (all those animal spells now apply neatly to himself -- can you see bonuses in the 40-and-up range at 20th level? *gasp*)
The lajatang is sweet. Increase the to-hit bonus and make it Wrathful Healing + Valorous + Metalline/Sure Striking.
Yeah, I like Ironclaw a lot.
It's sort of a plot-weapon .. GM keeps mysteriously buffing it as we progress through the story (each character has their own 'signature weapon' if you will). A couple of levels ago it was +3/+3 (with stuff). Is Sure Striking still around? Or even useful? It just makes the item treated as a +5 weapon, right? But it's already +4, and the + doesn't matter for DR anymore ... or did they rewrite Sure Striking?
By the way, as a HalfDragon WITHOUT TWF you do the listed +15/15/15/10/5,10/10/10 attack routine assuming you perform only leg sweeps, kicks, and knees with your unarmed attacks.
I looked all through this thread, and didn't see a good explanation of why this is. I remember seeing it explained in another thread somewhere (probably one of yours ;)), but now I can't find it. How does a full attack action get you all your unarmed natural attacks plus all your non-unarmed natural attacks without some kinda feat chain? Can you point me at a particular Monster(s) that does this kinda stuff?
I mean, assume I was a normal human, and I had a Sai in my hand instead of a claw -- does this mean I can do a full attack action with my feet, say, and then get in my 'normal attack sequence' (+15/+10/+5) with my Sai? If not, what's special about having claws and teeth (other than them being +15/+10/+10 by themselves, instead of +15/+10/+5)?
Baffled.
Rooth, they changed the sure striking around now. I don't have my books with me right now, but I beleive it takes out the need for the good/evil/chaos/lawful for damage reduction creature. As in it bypasses it. You don't get both your flurry and your claw attacks. I beleive Mean was letting you know that you only get one or the other. The TWF tree is combinable with your flurry to net you a couple extra attacks.
LINK #1
LINK #2
LINK #3
As the Defensive Throw ability works against any opponent designated as recieving a Dodge bonus who misses you, you can use this tactic to throw multiple guys. It helps to have a monk with a very high Str and maybe even the Passive Way syle from the Unearthed Arcana supplment.
Originally posted by mean_liar
I actually mean that you can execute a full attack with unarmed strikes in addition to striking with your natural weapons, without any feats.
LINK #1
LINK #2
LINK #3
Fantastic, thanks! One of those I had seen before, but couldn't find again.
I still think there's a special consideration for unarmed strikes. The examples in the MM (including half-dragon) all involve two-handed manufactured weapons. E.g., the two-bladed half-dragon fighter who attacks twice with his sword and once with his bite. While the Xill had one-handed weapons mixed with claw attacks, there were no MM examples of creatures with natural weapons and the Improved Unarmed Strike (IUS) feat. There was an example of a Vampire Monk, but because his Slam attacks aren't natural weapons but are the monster-equivalent of unarmed attacks, there was no natural weapon/IUS combo there to verify with.
The notion here is that IUS is different for a monk--reference how Greater Magic Weapon cannot be cast on any kind of natural attacks or unarmed attacks with the sole exception of monk's unarmed attacks. Your monk-claws are thus equivalent to being occupied, much like the fighter half-dragon in the MM with the two-bladed sword, although you'd still have the option of forgoeing your unarmed strike progression in favor of the claw/claw/bite routine. IUS, in the hand of a monk, is very different than it is in the hands of a Fighter, or any non-monk.
What I'm looking for is an example of a creature, preferrably in 3.5, with claw natural weapon attacks as well as monk IUS attacks. I did find the Rhek in the BoED, who has unarmed strikes like a monk, and can use his gore attack as well. But, it doesn't prove the notion of how a claw gets to be used for both monk unarmed sequences and natural weapon sequences in the same round.
Finding non-monk IUS (or monster Slam) + claw natural weapons in some creature somewhere would be helpful, but not conclusive as an example. Though I would say if that creature could not blend IUS with claw natural weapons, then a monk could not blend IUS with claw natural weapons, either.
I suspect the Thri-Kreen coming out in the new Psionics book will be the definitive example on this topic, if there isn't already one somewhere else.
Thats why I usually mention that your monk strikes are with kicks in such situations: it leaves your hands free.
Your reasoning seems sound, but I find the stark lack of printed/official examples rather unsettling all the same. Surely there's one out there!
The PHB sure enough says that a monk can deliver unarmed attacks normally even with her hands full, which says to me that, at her option, she can reserve her claw attacks for her natural weapon sequence.
And then there's the related monk-damage-through-claws topic. Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries makes this an important issue, as she gets 'claws', but not really a natural weapon attack sequence. She also gets increased damage, but it seems odd they'd use "1d3-1d4" as an example. So, if they're part of her IUS, then surely they're delivering monk damage (aside: what would 2d10 bump up to from the 'die increase' benefit of this and other PrCs?). So, surely a monk with a natural weapon sequence that involves claws can deliver monk damage through them, right? What about a monk's bite attack? Would it also get monk-damage? Why, or why not?
The Rhek doesn't get monk damage with his gore attack, but does monk damage when he heat-butts as part of his IUS attack. This suggests to me that any natural weapon attack delivers natural weapon damage, not monk damage (if any). I.e., a natural claw attack delivers claw damage, an unarmed attack with your claw delivers monk damage.
Very very nutty.
You get it absolutely right with this passage:
The Rhek doesn't get monk damage with his gore attack, but does monk damage when he heat-butts as part of his IUS attack. This suggests to me that any natural weapon attack delivers natural weapon damage, not monk damage (if any). I.e., a natural claw attack delivers claw damage, an unarmed attack with your claw delivers monk damage.
Finding isometric corroborating evidence is difficult: I am unaware of any monks with natural weapons listed in supplements. However, there are plenty of analogous examples involving manufactured weapons and natural attacks and one assumes these carry over to unarmed attacks.
Originally posted by mean_liar
Finding isometric corroborating evidence is difficult: I am unaware of any monks with natural weapons listed in supplements.
Seems really odd, dontcha think? I mean, it seems like such a 'natural' combination. ;)
However, there are plenty of analogous examples involving manufactured weapons and natural attacks and one assumes these carry over to unarmed attacks.
Yep. And, by extension, it seems reasonable unarmed attacks would work the same way. But, they're special. Somewhat simplified, but:
So, if you treat "unarmed attack" as working a long the same lines as "manufactured weapon", and you can use any part of your body for an unarmed attack that isn't holding a manufactured weapon, then that's arguably sufficient to quite handily make all natural weapon attacks useless. 'course, there's examples against that, so that's obviously wrong also, but...
I'm going to dig through my Dungeons since 3.5, and see if I can find a Critical Threat that has monk IUS and natural weapons (claws in particular). There's gotta be something somewhere. Also going to double-check the latest Dragon mag Sage Advice columns .. think I might've seen one somewhere that talks around this (but not at this).
I am working on a (non-copyright-infringing) synopsis of the best monk-related prestige classes from Dragon. Is that something I should post on your thread, or should I start a different one?
Post away!
But if it chooses to IUA flurry by headbutting, it could get three more attacks at the 1st Level monk unarmed damage category, resulting in Headbutt/Heatbutt/Headbutt/Bite/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing at +9/+9/+4/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6. The first three attacks are the headbutts. That's one fast-actin' dragon.
Am I interpreting this correctly?
By following this example, the dragon that executes a series of headbutts will not be able to Bite, as that limb is 'spoken for'.
A series of tailslaps by our example dragon would still allow it a full complement of Bites/Claws/Wings.
...
I also happen to think that small minority of creatures that can attack with a Natural Attack originating from a 'spoken for' limb are typoes and mistakes. The Lamia is the only example of this that I can think of off the top of my head. If it were more common I'd be inclined to believe that there's a mechanic I'm missing, but it otherwise appears that so long as a limb isn't being used to make a Manufactured Weapon attack and a Natural Attack you're fine and can stack them.
Originally posted by mean_liar
Almost. Most creatures (98%+) that have Natural Attacks cannot execute a Natural Attack with a limb that is making a Manufactured Weapon attack.
By following this example, the dragon that executes a series of headbutts will not be able to Bite, as that limb is 'spoken for'.
And let's not forget that the headbutt style of martial arts is really silly looking. For a demonstration, go see Tai Chi Master, also known as Twin Warriors, starring Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh. There's a 60-second scene where one character attacks with nothing but head butts. ;)
I also happen to think that small minority of creatures that can attack with a Natural Attack originating from a 'spoken for' limb are typoes and mistakes. The Lamia is the only example of this that I can think of off the top of my head.
There's nothing wrong with the Lamia. They can either do a wisdom-drain touch attack, or they can attack with both their dagger and two claws. This is basically identical to a centaur. The two claws in the natural weapon attack are coming from the lower half of the lion-taur body. It's the upper, human half that carries the dagger (and the spare hand does not have a natural attack -- although if it were, say, a kama instead of a dagger, and the lamia had a monk's IUS, it would be another story, but I digress).
If it were more common I'd be inclined to believe that there's a mechanic I'm missing, but it otherwise appears that so long as a limb isn't being used to make a Manufactured Weapon attack and a Natural Attack you're fine and can stack them.
The latest Dragon magazine features a Thri-Kreen (or however you spell it). And in an example of attack ability, it cites a 4-limbed Thri-Kreen being able to attack with 3 one-handed swords, and its bite. It does not mention the extra/spare claw. I actually think this is intentional, though the Xill is an opposing example.
Note to DMs everywhere -- this blending of natural weapons and manufacturered weapons (or IUS) is an interpretation with plenty of examples to back it up, and a few to contradict it. But, as with every min/max rules ****, it's up to you whether to allow it or not. Just try to be consistent with the ruling.
In our campaign, IUS is assumed to 'use' your entire body (since there's no rule that covers limb distribution of IUS attacks), so any IUS attacks negate all natural weapon attacks that round, with the exception of bites and possibly tails (it hasn't come up yet). Manufactured weapons, however, only negate the natural weapon that's holding the manufactured one (usually two claws--for some reason, lots of monsters that have both natural claw weapons and manuf. ones almost always have a two-handed weapon). Also in our campaign, the pounce ability only allows natural weapons in the full attack action it grants you. This prevents sick combinations from generating 12+ attacks per round.
Without these limitations, artificial or no, I think monk/druid combinations may have some serious hidden potential, especially considering the current Wildshape rules and the rather cheap Wilding feature for magic items. If you make it into epic, you can start getting some sick feats that really lift the few remaining caps off of Wildshape, making you the single most versatile and dangerous character in the game. Imo (and Ime (xperience)).
Along these lines, the latest "Animal Fist", or Shen monk-ish PrC detailed in the new Dragon Magazine (#319) has some intriguing potential for blending in there as well (ki strike silver and cold iron .. uncanny dodge .. magic + ghost-touch strikes [@1st level, while in Shen form] .. monk AC & damage progression .. fascinating and unique Shen abilities [my favorites: imagine Defensive Throw not being restricted to trip attacks .. imagine fists that are anti-magic, but only at the moment of punch .. blinding blindsense .. post-damage-resolution Wounding .. ]).
I really am trying to build a stunning/tripper with high str and wis,
Ability Focus adding plus 2 to my DC sounds like a heavy price for a feat - but I want it - I just dont think I can get it.
Mean you stated that some DM's might not allow this, but that they would be wrong. Is there any referance I can use to help build my case for the use of these feats ?..
One of my buddies stated that no one else could use any of the feats - his question was is this the monk/monster feat list or what ?
Any help would be appriciated
Bonton
I noticed that the Ability Focus feat in Savage Species is
listed as a general feat instead of a monstrous feat. To me,
that implies that some class abilities are considered special
attacks. Which qualify, if this isn’t a typo?
You can use the Ability Focus feat with pretty much
anything that you can use to hurt or hinder a foe and that allows
a saving throw. A short list includes the monk’s stunning
attack, the assassin’s death attack, and the bard’s fascinate
ability. Things that don’t allow saving throws, such as sneak
attacks, aren’t affected.
The feat is repeated in the v3.5 Monster Manual.
Making a monk with just PHB and CW can be done nicely.
I would forego tripping unless you're Large (HalfOgre etc).
Not to mention the ridiculous monk-damage you'd do. Originally posted by Impeesa
Certain FR schools of monks, any OA monk, and any monk in a generic campaign with an even remotely lenient DM can multiclass freely.
--Impeesa--
Only a few monks in a Forgotten Realms campaign can multi-class, and then only to a certain class. Monks who worship Ilmater, for example, can freely multi-class between monk and cleric, but that's the limit.
In the two different campaigns I participate in, we follow very strictly 3.5 FR rules. Unless if specifically mentions that worshiping a certain god will allow a monk to multi-class, then they cannot return to the monk class, no matter what.
Although I've been playing D&D since the Red Box Basic days, I've never (!) played a monk. I aim to correct that oversight via a dwarf monk. The catch: I can only use the 25 point buy elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).
That said, I wanted to get my ability scores vetted by the optimizers here.
Str 14
Dex 13
Con 14 (12 + 2 (dwarf) = 14)
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 6 (8 - 2 (dwarf) = 6)
What I am least comfortable with is the relatively low Dex. Reassure me that that is the best I can do under the circumstances...?
Otherwise you are indeed making the best of your situation.
Originally posted by mean_liar
Looks good, though I'd think about swapping WIS and STR.
Would you then continue to bump up Strength at 4th, 8th, etc.? Or put ability increases into Wisdom?
Next two questions. What are your opinions (your = anyone, not just mean_liar) of these two feats from Complete Warrior
Weakening Touch (CW 106)
[i]Prereq[/i]: Wis 17, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, BAB +2
[i]Benefit[/i]: ... You can make an unarmed attack that deals no damage, but instead applies a -6 penalty to the target's STR for 1 minute. ...
Sun School (Tactical feat) (CW 112)
[i]Prereq[/i]: Flurry of blows, BAB +4
[i]Benefit[/i]: Inexorable Progress of Dawn - if you hit same foe with first two unarmed atacks from a flurry, foe must move back 5 ft. and you may move 5 ft. forward if you wish; Blinding Sun of Noon - stun same foe two rounds in a row causes foe to be confused for 1d4 rounds thereafter; Flash of Sunset - if you move adjacent to foe with Abundant Step, you can immediately make a single attack at your highest attack bonus.
My thoughts - Weakening Touch seems fairly strong, like a monk's version of ray of enfeeblement. -6 STR is a lot: -3 attack, -3 damage, potential loss of feats (if STR < 13, can't use the Power Attack chain), potential encumbrance problems. The question is whether it's worth using up a stun attack to weaken the target.
Sun School seems worth it just for Flash of Sunset. Being able to warp in next to someone and then pummel them is the ultimate in monkish mobility. The other tactical moves are less exciting.
As always, finding a spot for these feats is a problem....
Off the cuff, neither of those feats is 'worth it'.
Compare Weakening Touch with Pain Touch. Admittedly your access to items (specifically the Ki Straps) can effect your view on Stunning, but being able to pop your opponent for 2 rounds of non-attacking with a single strike is a pretty powerful ability. MUCH more powerful than a -3 to hit/dmg.
Add to that the fact that most fights only last a few rounds anyway and Pain Touch looks a lot better. A neutralized opponent can have 100 STR, but if he's not attacking then it really doesn't matter.
Weakening Touch is only useful at low levels and even then its questionable in comparison to many other feats. There are very few instances where this ability looks good, and I can't think of them.
Sun School is another red herring. Compare it to Expert Tactician (again, limited by your access to sources - this feat appears in Sword and Fist and Song and Silence). Being able to take an extra attack on a D-door is ok, but being able to take an extra attack after every successful Stun is even better. The Stuns will certainly be more common and provide more utility in the long run, and Expert Tactician is an easy feat to qualify for and therefore can be enjoyed for a greater part of your career.
I cannot think of an instance where this is a good ability. If the enemy movement you provoke with your hits DID provoke AoOs, it would be worth it in certain builds. As-written, its purely for flavor.
...
regarding stat increases. I personally would get your WIS to an even number and then boost STR.
1) What does the Jotunbrud feat do and what book is it in, and no abbreviations please, as I am rather new to 3.0/3.5...
2) On the 1st page of this thread under items, why wouldn't you want a Periapt of Wis +6 and an Ioun Stone of Wis +2 for a total of 30 Wis (start at 17 or 18 + level bonuses)? It'll give you a huge AC bonus (+10) and an insane DC for stun effects.
3) On the items topic again, wouldn't "+5 Gauntlets of Speed (with Defending and/or Ki Focus and/or Merciful and/or etc.)" be amazing with 2 WPN Fighting? At 20th level you'd get 5 Flurry of Blows attacks + 2 Speed attacks + 1 to 3 (Improved and Greater 2 WPN Fight) off-hand attacks = 8 to 10 attacks in one round...
Gauntlets Attack Bonus: +20 (Base +15, +5 Magic Gauntlets Note: no STR added yet)
+18 +18 +18 +18 +18 +18 +13 +13 +8 +8 = 10 attacks
4) On the Gauntlets topic from 3, they are considered natural weapons, so you wouldn't need Ki Focus, right?
5) On the Gauntlets topic from 3, if you were holding a "+5 Defending Spiked Chain" while wearing the "+5 Gauntlets of Speed," could you gain the +5 attack bonus from the Gauntlets, their 10 attacks, a +5 AC bonus from the Spiked Chain, and still be able to trip anyone within 10' with an attack of opportunity with the Spiked Chain?
6) I am making a Monk through the MAX point buy system (32 points). Here are some options I have come up with so far from best to worst in my opinion...
STR:16 DEX:10 CON:14 INT:9 WIS:17 CHA:8
STR:16 DEX:10 CON:16 INT:8 WIS:16 CHA:8
STR:16 DEX:14 CON:14 INT:8 WIS:16 CHA:8
I would pump up WIS with the level ability modifiers. What do you think is the best option, or is there a better one altogether?
Thanks for the help,
Zerone
2) The Ioun Stone only provides an enhancement bonus, which is superceded by the bonus from the Periapt.
3) You cannot Flurry with Gauntlets unless you're a Shou Disciple.
4) Thats a tricky question that probably is a 'no'.
5) Correct, though the cost to do this is rather high. Its only a viable tactic if you have more gold than you can possibly spend.
6) Depends on the build. If you're eventually going to end up with Martial Weapon Proficiencies, I'd say #3 - you want a high DEX to get lots of AoOs, since you'll be using a Reach weapon and kicking a lot. Otherwise, #2 or 16/14/16/8/14/8 would be my choices.
No plans on Martial Weapon Proficiencies, it was just an idea, but since the gauntlets don't work, why bother...?
And why do you place WIS lower on the chain for point buy method? What do you recomend for level ability bonuses?
re: WIS. Personal preference. In later levels (6+) you're probably going to have more Stunning Attacks than you know what to do with, meaning that missing a few now and then won't bother you so much. Considering that its a Fortitude save (generally the best save for melee threats you'll really really want to Stun and the worst save for arcane spellcasters), spending an inordinate amount of effort boosting the DC doesn't pay dividends. Raising WIS with your level increases is a fine idea though - there are plenty of ways to increase your STR. Besides, its much cooler to have a high WIS than a high STR. Minmax-wise, raising STR is probably better but the level-derived bonuses are so small (+2 bonus to be doled out over 20 levels) its not a large concern.
With point-buy its a matter of 'return on investment'. Getting those higher stats is nice, but at what cost? Certainly trying to get 14s in your main stats (STR, DEX, CON, WIS) is the first thing to do, given that its so cheap to do. From there, you want to try and maximize survivability and so STR and CON get the nod. In equal amounts, a high WIS/DEX is almost always trumped by a high CON. Thats not to say you totally neglect one for the other, but you get the idea.
Enchanting Gauntlets. Using only table 7-14 of the DM's Guide (Magic Items: Melee Weapon Special Abilities) and the item options Brilliant Energy, Dancing, Vorpal, and Wounding were not options, what do you recommend as the best enchanted gauntlets, ignoring all costs?
Vow of Poverty. Where is this located and what is it?
Originally posted by Zerone
Vow of Poverty. Where is this located and what is it?
Vow of Poverty (VoP) is in the Book of Exalted Deeds (BoED). If you go to the mature boards, you'll find endless (and I do mean endless) debates about VoP.
Essentially, your character takes this vow (usually at low levels, and after taking "sacred vow," also a BoED feat), and for the rest of his career, absolutely cannot own any material item, save for a cheap walking stick, sandals, homespun rag clothes, and possibly a spell-pouch for spell components.
In return for absolute and unswerving poverty, you get a whole bunch of extra abilities, stat increases, and every-other-level access to "Divine Feats" (also found in BoED), etc.
Some people think it's broken, some a waste of time, some in the middle. But when you get into epic play, the advantages start to wear off, as magic items exist in epic levels that eclipse the benefits of VoP.
Originally posted by Eryth1
In the Exalted Handbook thread someone mentioned that the Sage had ruled that Monk unarmed attacks are not considered Natural attacks. Does this mean that you can't use Improved Natural Attack anymore? When did this happen?
This would be news to me.
My stats are:
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 17
Cha 9
I am trying to get the DM to allow a modified version of the Hand and Foot fighting style in UE called Scorpion Strike, giving me: Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, and ending with a +2 bonus to trip and a +4 bonus against trip.
I'm also trying to trade an exotic weapon proficiency and a simple weapon proficiency for guisarme proficieny (non flurry) as part of the fighting style.
So far, my idea for feats are:
1st: Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Fist*, Jotenbrud, Unbalancing Strike
2nd: Combat Reflexes*
3rd: Expert Tactician or Intuitive Strike
4th: +1 WIS (for 18 and +4, giving me a +4 to hit with Init strike)
5th:
6th: Improved Trip*, Improved Natural Attack
My basic idea is to trip opponents with the guisarme, before they get near me, allowing the fighter and the rogue to get them while they are prone. My trip should be at +4 (jotenbrud) +2 (str), giving me a +6 to trip most medium sized humanoids.
Once they get close, I can fight unarmed, with unbalancing strike and stunning fist to deny them their dex, and then get the extra attack at full bab from expert tactician.
Any ideas or suggestions?
SRD 3.5:
Boots of Striding and Springing: These boots increase the wearer’s base land speed by 10 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Jump checks.
SRD 3.5:
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, ...
Rules of the Game, Stacking, Part I:
When two or more bonuses overlap, they're not cumulative and you use only the highest bonus. You don't add the effects, but they don't go away either. If one of whatever gives you an overlapping bonus goes away, the other might still be around to take up the slack. ...
The [example] character has two enhancement bonuses to speed (+10 feet from the boots of striding and springing and +30 feet from the expeditious retreat spell). Since they're both enhancement bonuses, they overlap, and the character can use only the higher bonus.
So boots of striding and springing are not useful for any monk of 3rd level or above, because the +10 ft. enhancement bonus to speed from the boots would be overlapped by the monk's +10 ft. (or better) enhancement bonus to speed from fast movement. A minor nitpick, but one that might save you 5,500 gp!
No, actually, you have to be an 11th-level monk to gain this class ability. Good Gaming!
*Please quote this email in any reply.*
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Customer Service Department
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email]Waterdeep@web.de[/email] [mailto:Waterdeep@web.de]
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 10:25 AM
To: Wizards Customer Service
Subject: Monks greater flurry ability
Dear ladies and gentlemen,
a short question (-;
is the "Greater Flurry" ability ( normally gained my the core class monk at level 11 ) related to BAB , so a monk 6 / Fighter 4 ( BAB +8 ) or a Monk 4/ Shou Discipline 5 (BAB +8 ) would get it or is it only available to a straight Core class Monk level 11 ?
I also e-mailed customer support and they said Shou Disciple levels stack with Monk levels to determine FOB. If that's the case to me it seems like Greater Flurry is actually just an improvement inside FOB, not a separate ability. What do you guys think?
Monk levels + (Flurry stacking classes) = effective level to determine Flurry.
This is pretty clear.
but why didn't he write that I the build needed 2 levels more of monk or Shou disciple ?
I asked it this way cause I hoped that the ability was BAB dependend
I am playing a monk in our next campaign and would like some suggestions on ideas and/or feats.
My stats are:
Str 15
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 16
Cha 10
I am trying to get the DM to allow a modified version of the Hand and Foot fighting style in UE called Scorpion Strike, giving me: Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, and ending with a +2 bonus to trip and a +4 bonus against trip.
I'm also trying to trade an exotic weapon proficiency and a simple weapon proficiency for guisarme proficieny (non flurry) as part of the fighting style.
So far, my idea for feats are:
1st: Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Fist*, Jotenbrud, Unbalancing Strike
2nd: Combat Reflexes*
3rd: Expert Tactician or Intuitive Strike
4th: +1 WIS (for 18 and +4, giving me a +4 to hit with Init strike)
5th:
6th: Improved Trip*, Improved Natural Attack
My basic idea is to trip opponents with the guisarme, before they get near me, allowing the fighter and the rogue to get them while they are prone. My trip should be at +4 (jotenbrud) +2 (str), giving me a +6 to trip most medium sized humanoids.
Once they get close, I can fight unarmed, with unbalancing strike and stunning fist to deny them their dex, and then get the extra attack at full bab from expert tactician.
Any ideas or suggestions?
If Nymph's Kiss good for a monk?
What if he doesn't allow or nerfs Unbalancing Strike?
Also... is there something official that says Ability Focus will work on Stunning Fist?
Should I go the Two-Weapon Fighting way?
Thanks!
John
In order: yes, its good for anyone though there are better feats - its best as a bonus from Vow of Poverty, if he makes it require a Stun Attack to pull off forget it, check the FAQ under the Savage Species section, and very probably.
If my Dm doesn't allow Jotunbrud, what other feat should I choose? Ability Focus?
What about exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain...it gives +2 to disarm attempts if you want to go dawn the battlefield control route...not to mention the great synergy with combat reflexes.
My current monk (intended to become IoPS):
Human LG
These stats look off but were witnessed rolls!
Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 16
Wis: 16
Cha 15
1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Touch Of Golden Ice
2: *Stunning Fist, Servant of the Heavens
3: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
4: +1 Cha, Sanctify Martial Strike
This is as far as I have got with him so far. At some point I hope to take Nymph's Kiss but that will have to be role-play dependant as he has to meet the Fey, strike up a relationship etc.
I will also be taking Nimbus of Light if only because VoP and underground dungeons are a bloody pain in the arse! Vow of Obedience, Sanctify Ki Strike and Holy Ki Strike will be future choices as well.
The only dilemma I have at present is where to allocate his VoP stat increases. I am torn between Dex and Wis for the first (eventually +8) increase, the second (eventually +6) will go to the other. Weighing up the various benefits of each there is so little to choose between them. Any advice would be well received! (Obviously which ever way he goes he will take the appropriate to hit feat.)
Aside from that great thread, very useful.
I am confused as to why you completely overlooked Initiate of Pistis Sofia as an obvious PrC choice for an exalted monk. It is a pretty damn good class to move into if you meet the requirements and are willing to role-play the exalted path.
Item #1: Meeting the requirements is a pain in the arse. Those feat choices are questionable and only sensible for a VoP Monk. Servant of the Heavens will never be a good feat choice, and Sanctify Ki Strike makes qualifying for the class a late-blooming thing. About the same time you get Elemental Resistances from the class you're getting it from the VoP.
A non-VoP monk taking this class is blowing a LOT of feats for very, very little return.
Item #2: Roleplaying an Exalted character never requires taking an Exalted PrC or feat.
I did not 'overlook' the Initiate. It is a mechanically bad PrC.
Take it for flavor if you want, but do not think that it is a mechanically strong PrC. Its main appeal is that its an easy choice - its clearly made for VoP monks. Its basically fills the same abstract niche that the Tattooed Monk does, in that its clearly a Monk PrC and should therefore be good, as PrCs are generally better than core classes. This assumption is incorrect.
Just for an example, its most endearing qualities are: the bonus Exalted feats, detect Evil, and the stacking levels for Flurry and damage.
Well, detect evil is to be had with Shintao Monk for at least one less Feat. Exalted feats are less applicable than generic feats (especially for VoP Monks which qualify for the class without extreme hardship), meaning again the Shintao Monk (just as an example) is mechanically better. Finally, the Flurry and Damage increases are only marginally useful, in that Flurry past level 11 doesn't improve and damage is more easily boosted with stacked items. The jump from 2d8 to 2d10 averages 2 points of damage - that's useful, but considering that you're trading in 3 feats of questionable use to get there, you might have been better off taking 4 levels of Fighter and Weapon Specialization and finishing off with Shintao Monk (just as an example).
Its too bad, really. It would be cool if there was an exalted Monk PrC mechanically worth playing (a la Lion of Talasid), but there isn't. Not explicitly, anyway: the Vow of Poverty is a fine faux-PrC implicitly for Monks.
Thats not to say that the BoED is useless for Monks past the VoP, though. I imagine a VoP Monk9/ApostleOfPeace4/Sacred Fist7 (or some variation thereof) would do rather well, for example.
But the Initiate was not mentioned for a reason.
...
Regarding your build, I suggest that +8 go to WIS and +6 to STR, with the +4 to CON and +2 to DEX. With your exalted bonuses and eventual DR, I seriously doubt you'll need that much more AC.
What do you think of Unearthed Arcana's Bloodlines in respect to monks. Are they worth taking?
It seems for a +1 to an ability score and an extra feat (plus a skill bonus), they seem like they might be worth it.
The janni looks nice, Improved Initiative and a +1 to WIS... plus invisibility 1/day later. Not terribly impressive... but for one level, it seems not too bad... especially considering that the Bloodline level stacks with monk levels for Stun DC.
Any comments or opinions?
What about the paragon classes?
Paragon classes I haven't really examined too closely.
+1 WIS, Improved Initiative, invisibility 1/day and a few misc. bonuses.
Please overlook this if it has already been covered, and tell me if I am wrong otherwise. I'm thinking of mean_liar's draconic monk build... ok so you are doing (at level 20) 8d12 damage per unarmed strike, assuming fanged ring and such. Assuming you are enlarged (or have some way of doing a damage-die increase) you do 12d12 damage per unarmed strike. Flurry bumps up the number of attacks you can do to five in a full attack action. Let's assume you are level 23 (to the point where you get second epic feat, correct?) and you have two-weapon fighting. Epic feat one will be perfect TWF, epic feat two will be dire charge. If we say that TWF can be used with flurry and unarmed strikes (the synopsis I gleaned from a quick glance at the previous threads was DM decision/mostly yes, correct?), then you will have ten attacks during a full attack action with flurry (again assuming flurry stacks with TWF, correct me if I'm wrong). One of your mundane feats is flying kick, which lets you do double damage on a charge. One of your magical items are sandals of the tiger's leap, which also let you do double damage on a charge. Assuming your DM allows all of these to stack, in the first round of combat (dire charge requirement), you could concieveably charge, get a full attack action, and do damage *2 *2. This would look like (I think) 12d12 (per attack) * 10 (flurry + TWF) * 2 * 2 = 480d12 without other bonuses. Assuming half damage at least, 480 * 6 = 2880 damage on one charge. Am I going wrong somewhere?
Don't forget, there's a psionic power that allows you to enlarge two categories. If there was a way to get that into an item, like mages do with a Ring of Spell Storing ...
Actually, for that matter, toss in a shapechange ring, so you can become, say, a leonal, and be able to Dire Charge equivalent on every round (Pounce) without a feat. Oh, and be sure to use your free-action at the beginning and end of each round to shift into and out of a blink-dog form, so you're harder to hit (they're pretty much blinking all the time -- and they can dimension door as a free action without being dizzy at the end .. TACTICAL NIGHTMARE! for any bad guy).
Assuming your DM allows stacking of those particular doubles, the rules say that x2 + x2 = x3, not x4.
It would be 3x damage, according to the stacking of multipliers rules in the DMG.
As for flying kick/sandals of the tigers leap those are both 3.0 and flying kick has been updated to 3.5 in CW.
Race: Wild elf with lythari template
str: 14 (16 in animal/hybrid form)
Dex: 16 (20 in animal/hybrid form)
Con: 14 (18 in animal/hybrid form)
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Chr: 8
HP: 3d8 + 10 (1 monk HD +2 con, 2 Mons HD +4 con)
feats:
- Iron will (lyncanthropy feat)
- Improved controlled unvulantary shapechange (natural lyncantrhopy feat)
- Improved trip (in animal form only) (lyncanthropy feat)
- Scent (lyncanthropy feat)
- Track (lyncanthropy feat)
- Weapon finess (bite) (lyncanthropy feat)
- Stunning attack (monk feat)
- Quick change (Level 1)
- Multi-Attack (Level 3)
Special abilities
- Damage reduction 10/silver (in hybrid/animal form)
- evasion (monk class ability)
- shapechange (lyncanthope ability)
AC (elf form): 18 = 10 + 3 (wis) + 3 (dex) +2 (Nat Ar)
AC (hybrid/animal form): 20 = 10 + 3(wis) + 5 (dex) + 2(Nat Ar)
Saving throws:
Fort: 7 (+3 Mon, +2 Monk, +2 Con)
Ref: 8 (+3 Mon, +2 Monk, +3 Dex)
Will: 7 (+2 Monk, +2 Iron Will, +3 Wis)
Attacks:
BAB: +1
STR: +2 (+3 animal/hybrid form)
Elf form: +1/+1 [(+1 BAB) (+ 2 Str) (-2 Flurry)]
hybrid form: +4/+4/+4 (claw, claw, bite)[(+1 BAB) (+ 3 Str)]/[(+1 BAB) (+5 finess bite) (-2 secondary weapon)]
Question: How would flurry of blows work if you had two claws for natural weapons? Would you add a third attack and subtrack 2 from all attacks? If this was true then the monk would have +2/+2/+2/+2 (claw/claw/claw/bite)
Anyways, does this character seem plausible to you guys?
Kraigor
Elf form: +1/+1 [(+1 BAB) (+ 2 Str) (-2 Flurry)]
hybrid form: +4/+4/+4 (claw, claw, bite)[(+1 BAB) (+ 3 Str)]/[(+1 BAB) (+5 finess bite) (-2 secondary weapon)]
Question: How would flurry of blows work if you had two claws for natural weapons? Would you add a third attack and subtrack 2 from all attacks? If this was true then the monk would have +2/+2/+2/+2 (claw/claw/claw/bite)
Anyways, does this character seem plausible to you guys?
Kraigor
First, you can't flurry with natural weapons.
So, you're attacks would be more along the lines of...
Elf Form:
* Unarmed Strike (+3/1d6+2)
* Flurry: (+1/+1, 1d6+2/1d6+2)
Hybrid Form:
* Claw/Claw/Bite (check the multiattack penalties)
* Unarmed Attack (+4, 1d6+3)
* Flurry: (+2/+2, 1d6+3/1d6+3)
* Flurry + Bite: (+0/+0 - 1d6+3/1d6+3) and (+2/1d6+1)
Compare that to a straight 5th level monk with a 14 Str
Unarmed Strike (+5/1d8+2)
Flurry (+4/+4, 1d8+2/1d8+2)
You'll be hitting more often as a straight monk.
Plus, you would have several more special abilities, 10' extra move and +1 to AC AND your Stun DC would be higher and you could do it more often.
All in all, this combination doesn't seem very poweful.
or
Unarmed Strike (-4), Unarmed Strike (-4), Bite (-2)
So, you'd have one more attack at -2, but at the expensive of killing your flurry attack bonuses.
Since natural weapons can't be used in a flurry, there are not real advantages to
Is there another feat you would recommend?
My progression so far is:
1st - Jutunbrud (1st), Unbalancing Strike (human), Ability Focus (Stun) from UA Flaw Shky (-2 to ranged)
2nd - Combat Reflexes
3rd - Expert Tactician
4th - Nada
5th - Nada
6th - Improved Trip, Was going to take Improved Natural Attack?
7th -
8th -
9th -
Originally posted by mean_liar
I haven't seen anything but I wouldn't be surprised.
Anything else you'd recommend mean_liar?
These are the ones I've thought about:
TWF - that's another -2 to hit, and I don't hit much now.
Weapon Focus - would give me another +1 to attack.
Deft Oppurtunist - I have a guisarme, so I will (hopefully) be getting a fair number of AOOs since I have 3 AOOs and reach.
Any multi-classing you'd recommend? The DM allows free multi-classing
I thought a level of wizard might help... or a level of fighter for the BAB and feat.
Or rogue... for skill points and sneak attack... the fact that I can get into a flanking position easily because of my speed, plus the stunning aspect makes this attractive despite the BAB hit.
Any prestige classes you might recommend?
Thanks!
I'm all for helping people out, but those kinds of rough-quality questions have been dealt with pretty extensively.
Originally posted by DragonsArt
First, you can't flurry with natural weapons.
You also can't attack within anything but monk attacks when flurrying. This according to the latest FAQ. So:
Hybrid Form:
* Claw/Claw/Bite (check the multiattack penalties)
* Unarmed Attack (+4, 1d6+3)
* Flurry: (+2/+2, 1d6+3/1d6+3)
* Flurry + Bite: (+0/+0 - 1d6+3/1d6+3) and (+2/1d6+1)
So that last one is counting the bite as an off-hand attack. Arguably, the claws can't be used in the off-hand attack, as it's assumed you're using both claws in the flurry. Thing is, you can't use the entire natural attack sequence as your off-hand attack, as sometimes appears and is suggested in MM entries. But if you use the non-flurry sequence, apparently it would go like this:
Basically, since flurry and non-monk natural attacks can't be mixed together, you're left with the fighter's option of "normal full attack + natural attacks". Though the FAQ cites a Vampire Monk being unable to use a Slam attack if he's using Unarmed Attacks (not specifying flurry), so depending on how you read the FAQ, it could mean that ANY Unarmed Attack means that you can't use ANY Natural Weapon attacks, though I think the Sage was really getting at the supernatural energy drain ability being negated if the vamp. monk is flurrying. It's rather unclear, for being a long answer to that particular question.
Plus, you would have several more special abilities, 10' extra move and +1 to AC AND your Stun DC would be higher and you could do it more often.
Yeah, but 10/silver damage reduction at that level would be awesome. Unless attacking other lycanthropes (which also have 10/silver, and would penetrate your dr, no problem).
All in all, this combination doesn't seem very poweful.
It might be fun to play all the same, but since this is the min-max board, I would agree here.
If you want to mix in monster stuff with monk stuff and still be reasonably effective, first be sure to thoroughly read the latest FAQ on how this stuff works. Don't trust the examples in the MM and other sources .. they're inconsistent. Also, consider playing an "Animal Fist", aka "Shen" monk, from Dragon Magazine #319, May 2004, Pg 68. They get Ki Strike silver, and cold-iron -- only other way in the game to get that is with epic feats. They also retain AC & unarmed damage progression (but not speed, unless you're a panther), full-strength saving throws, special hybrid forms, and a wealth of other nifty abilities depending on which animal you take, many of which mimick certain attractive feats. They also get an evasion upgrade, and uncanny dodge, and still have d8 hit-dice. Yes, you could make a more powerful straight-monk, but the Shen are really neat, and monster-like, without having to deal with the downsides of a template.
Originally posted by rooth
So that last one is counting the bite as an off-hand attack. Arguably, the claws can't be used in the off-hand attack, as it's assumed you're using both claws in the flurry. Thing is, you can't use the entire natural attack sequence as your off-hand attack, as sometimes appears and is suggested in MM entries. But if you use the non-flurry sequence, apparently it would go like this:
Not quite. In order to attack with all your natural weapons, you MUST take a full attack. Multi-attack only reduces the penalties for using your secondary attacks, it doesn't allow you to use ALL of your attacks without a full attack. Since a flurry is a full attack, you can't do both. The best you can do is an off-hand attack, which according to the sage, IS allowed... you would get...
Flurry (-2 to attack + -2 off-hand attack) using unarmed attack
AND
Off-hand attack with either unarmed strike or bite (-2 off-hand attack penalty)
And that's assuming you have the two-weapon fighting feat, as the multi-attack only affects secondary weapons ... bite would be a primary weapon.
Basically, since flurry and non-monk natural attacks can't be mixed together, you're left with the fighter's option of "normal full attack + natural attacks". Though the FAQ cites a Vampire Monk being unable to use a Slam attack if he's using Unarmed Attacks (not specifying flurry), so depending on how you read the FAQ, it could mean that ANY Unarmed Attack means that you can't use ANY Natural Weapon attacks, though I think the Sage was really getting at the supernatural energy drain ability being negated if the vamp. monk is flurrying. It's rather unclear, for being a long answer to that particular question.
There is no normal full attack plus natural attacks, that I'm aware of. The monster manual clearly states that a monster attacks with a melee weapon OR natural attacks. In order to use ALL of your natural attacks, you must use a full attack, otherwise you get just your primary... in this case... bite.
Yeah, but 10/silver damage reduction at that level would be awesome. Unless attacking other lycanthropes (which also have 10/silver, and would penetrate your dr, no problem).
Damage reduction is cool. But because your BAB will suck, you won't be able to damage your opponent easily, so even though he isn't doing much damage, he'll whittle you down little by little.
It might be fun to play all the same, but since this is the min-max board, I would agree here.
Definately not a power-build. Interesting for flavor but underpowered... especially at high levels where the lack of advanced abilities and BAB will get you killed quickly.
If you want to mix in monster stuff with monk stuff and still be reasonably effective, first be sure to thoroughly read the latest FAQ on how this stuff works. Don't trust the examples in the MM and other sources .. they're inconsistent. Also, consider playing an "Animal Fist", aka "Shen" monk, from Dragon Magazine #319, May 2004, Pg 68. They get Ki Strike silver, and cold-iron -- only other way in the game to get that is with epic feats. They also retain AC & unarmed damage progression (but not speed, unless you're a panther), full-strength saving throws, special hybrid forms, and a wealth of other nifty abilities depending on which animal you take, many of which mimick certain attractive feats. They also get an evasion upgrade, and uncanny dodge, and still have d8 hit-dice. Yes, you could make a more powerful straight-monk, but the Shen are really neat, and monster-like, without having to deal with the downsides of a template.
Good suggestion. You do loose some nifty abilities, but depending on what type of monk you want to be, the Shen monks are a good choice.
When doing a full attack:
Basically, when the monster uses the manufactured weapon, that /entire sequence/ is treated as the primary weapon, with the 'secondary' being "all the natural weapons". Now .. obviously if one of the natural weapons is claw, then the claw holding the manufactured weapon cannot be used in the natural attack sequence. And if there are two claws holding the weapon (or weapons), as with a great axe, say, then they're both out of the action for the natural attack portion.
I look at it this way -- the multiple natural attacks isn't a 'sequence', it's more of a 'combo'. They sort of all happen at once. This is what allows a lion to pounce every round, but a human can only get one attack after 'pouncing' (unless you have that crazy epic(?) feat, Dire Charge, that gives you the effect of 'pounce' with your weapon, but only on the first round). Of course, if you were, say, a Lion of Taliseed (sp?), you could pounce with a manufactured weapon AND all your natural weapons. Every round you could normally charge. Which is pretty powerful. IMO, pouncing should be limited to any attack you have that is a 'combo', or basically, just your natural weapon attacks.
The FAQ does specifically say you can't flurry and use your natural attack 'combo' at the same time. But that's not stopping you from using your normal BAB sequence (unflurried) in conjunction with natural attacks. It gets funky, though, 'cause you could cargue that all your unarmed attacks were without using your hands, thus freeing your claws for the natural weapon combo. But.. that's a little weird, unless you're the master of the "hand and foot minus hand" style. ;)
Originally posted by mean_liar
A series of size increases, affecting unarmed strikes.
mean,
I'm not sure how you get to 6d12, or from 6d12 to 12d12, in your example. I tried to follow it, but I either come up with 6d8 or 9d6, even assuming IDM's die-type increases for Claw attacks also apply to Unarmed attacks. Could you add a parameter to the lines of the level specs that indicates the unarmed attack damage at each point it changes?
BTW, I know the topic of unarmed vs. natural attacks has been brought up before on this thread, but there have been some recent additions to the FAQ that perhaps warrant revisiting the issue. According to the latest FAQ, the IDM die-type increases would not apply to the monk's unarmed damage, but only to the claw damage, since it makes a distinction between claw attacks and unarmed attacks
- "A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can't use it along with a flurry." [Main35FAQv07022004.pdf, Page 4]
and by extension, a natural weapon attack would not do the monk's unarmed damage, since said damage only applies to unarmed strikes. So, since IDM enhances the claw damage specifically, and not the unarmed damage, it would not particularly help the monk. Although it would make the +15/+10/+5/+10/+10/+10 option slightly more attractive, I think it would still be better to flurry.
6th level Monk
+5 level Shou Disciple
+4 Monk's Tattoo
+5 Monk's Belt
= effectively 20th level Monk for unarmed damage, or 2d10.
Then...
+1 size from Empty Hand Mastery
+1 size from Improved Natural Attack
= +2 size increases from feats.
2d10 + 2 sizes = 4d8 + 1 size = 6d8 unarmed damage.
Then...
+2 die increases from Initiate of Draconic Mysteries
6d8 + 2 die increases = 6d10 + 1 die increase = 6d12 unarmed damage.
With a Fanged Ring and Enlarge, thats another 2 size increases, making it from its base of 6d8...
+1 size from Enlarge
+1 size from Fanged Ring
= +2 size increases from effects
6d8 + 2 sizes = 8d8 + 1 size = 12d8 unarmed damage.
Then, applying the Initiate's die increases, that becomes 12d12.
...
IDM actually explicitly affects unarmed strike damage.
I read up to page 6, and pages 12 and 13, and I dont think I saw it mentioned.
But has no one thought of a snerfibul (deep gnome =))
+2 DEX, +2 WIS, small size for +1 AC, and +4 dodge AC means +7 AC.
Lose 2 STR.
Get Darkvision 120, Stonecutting, +2 to all saving throws, +2 on hide, Nondetection at character level, SR at 11+ cl and once per day Blindness/Deafness, Blur and Disguise self.
Yes the +3 level adjustment is steep, but man, for a monk it makes a NICE base.
Originally posted by lonewar
Ok,
I read up to page 6, and pages 12 and 13, and I dont think I saw it mentioned.
But has no one thought of a snerfibul (deep gnome =))
+2 DEX, +2 WIS, small size for +1 AC, and +4 dodge AC means +7 AC.
Lose 2 STR.
Get Darkvision 120, Stonecutting, +2 to all saving throws, +2 on hide, Nondetection at character level, SR at 11+ cl and once per day Blindness/Deafness, Blur and Disguise self.
Yes the +3 level adjustment is steep, but man, for a monk it makes a NICE base.
No. At LA +3 it is awful. Compare to Half-celestial at LA+2, or Half-minotaur at LA+1.
Lesser svirfneblin, on the other hand...
Originally posted by mean_liar
... abbreviated ...
+1 size from Empty Hand Mastery
+1 size from Improved Natural Attack
= +2 size increases from feats.
+2 die increases from Initiate of Draconic Mysteries
With a Fanged Ring and Enlarge, thats another 2 size increases, making it from its base of 6d8...
= +2 size increases from effects
6d8 + 2 sizes = 8d8 + 1 size = 12d8 unarmed damage.
Then, applying the Initiate's die increases, that becomes 12d12.
Umm, how do you figure on applying the magical effects before the class abilities? Shouldn't it instead be:
6d12 + 2 size increases = 24d6?
That's similar to 12d12, but ..
IDM actually explicitly affects unarmed strike damage. [/b]
... I'm .. I'm sorry, I have a cold ... yes, it clearly relates to unarmed damage. My bad. In fact, the class doesn't give a claw attack at all. Dunno where I got that idea from. Maybe Dragon Disciple. *sigh*
But, in checking on some other things, I see Improved Natural Attack applies specifically to "natural weapons":
- "Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by onecategory." -- 3.5 MM, p304
Having a natural weapon is even one of the prerequisites. And as I mentioned in a previous post, the FAQ clarifies that a monk's unarmed attack is not a natural weapon. So, how would I go about trying to convince my DM that this feat could apply to monk damage?
Specifically, if you were to calculate the die type increase and then the size increase, it would be +2 die type increases then +2 size increases without items, making it...
2d10 + 2 die increases + 2 size increases
= 2d12 + 1 die increase + 2 size increases
= 2d20 + 2 size increases
= (4d10 + 2 size increases)???
= (8d8 + 1 size increase)???
= (12d8)???
The problem here is that there is no listed size increase effect for d20 damage.
Then, calculate the effect of the Fanged Ring and an Enlarge...
12d8 + 2 size increases
= 16d8 + 1 size increase
= 24d8
Again, the charts don't support taking damage past 12d8, adjusting for size. Its easy enough to see the pattern though - 2, 3, 4 (=2*2), 6 (=3*2), 8 (=4*2), 12 (= 6*2). Double the predecessor to determine the successor, essentially.
...
The INA/unarmed damage debate is a long one and I won't rehash it in its entirety. The short version is...
1) The FAQ states that a natural attack is not an unarmed strike. That was never in contention, at least by those of us that are strikingly familiar with the rules for natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and their interaction. Its pretty clear in the Monster Manual as written (and without the FAQ even) that a natural attack is a pretty unique thing, separate from just about everything else other than other natural attacks.
2) The fact that a natural attack is not an unarmed strike does not mean that an unarmed strike is not (occasionally) a natural attack. The FAQ is clarifying natural attacks, NOT unarmed strikes.
3) A monk's unarmed strike, as per the class description, is considered a manufactured weapon or a natural weapon for all effects and spells that enhance.
4) The INA feat enhances natural attacks.
5) The INA feat requires, as a prereq, a natural attack.
6) Since INA provides an effect which enhances natural attacks, the monk's unarmed strike is sufficient to qualify for the feat as per the monk's class description.
The ImpNatAttack feat interaction with the monk's unarmed strike is the most contentious issue I've ever been involved in. Lots of folks have lots of opinions, but the conclusion that I've reached is that those that are against it are doing so for balance reasons, and have no real reasons based on the rules. Its pretty clear that the rules support such a use for INA; the only reason not to include it is because it gives such a substantial boost to the monk class. For a windier and more entertaining thread, visit HERE.
(RacconDog)Hengeyokri Monk6/Warshaper4/Shou5/Occult Slayer5
The feat progression would be,
1 Stunning Fist(Monk)
1 Kungfu Genius
2 Combat Reflexes(monk)
3 Expert Tactician
6 Improved Trip(monk)
6 WF(unarmed)
9 Dodge
12 Power Attack(Shou)
12 Knockdown
14 Improved Initive(Shou)
15 Defensive Throw
18 Improved Natural Attack
You end up with BAB +17, very nice saves, all the Warshaper and Occult Slayer nastiness AND greater flurry. Also with a fanged ring, monk's tattoos, and a monk's belt your unarmed damage will be 8d8 (avg 36 dmg) and 12d8 if you get enlarged(thank you mean_liar on the clairifications).
I did a monkish build using WS too (rgr1/monk2/pw2/rgr1/weretouched master5/ws2/is7) and we couldn't really decide if the WS morphic weapons stack with monk's unarmed damage or not. So I would like to know how did you do it and why.
PS
The discussion can be found here
As for the final damage look back at mean_liar's breakdown of the Draconic Monk that I requested a few days ago. I follow the same path through the math
, and get 8d8 which is nasty.Finally I recremend for your build to drop PW and Slayer and take up Warmind and maybe get 2 more levels of Warshaper, just a thought.;)
Any insight on these questions for a Duergar Monk who plans to go all the way.
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10 (hey, -4...i normally have higher)
1 - Wisdom or Strength, with the ability to enlarge one self 3/day with Magic in the Blood (PGtoF) feat which becomes more important overall.
2 - Is taking TWF worth a feat when you do not plan on taking Imp TWF due to the prereq's of DEX 17.
3 - Is Large and in Charge worth taking for a monk with combat reflexes, and being large sized for at least 3 encounters.
4 - Should I go the Spring Attack Tree, taking into account Wisdom being the possible primary attribute?
5 - Due to a special house ruling, only weapons a character is proficient in can any tactical attack be executed. i.e. a monk cannot TRIP or DISARM while using a spiked chain. Would Exotic Wpn Prof. Spiked Chain be worth taking at this point? Considering 10 ft. reach and 15 ft. reach when enlarged.
6 - Is there anything in Races of Stone that I might want to consider.
I guess fill in the blanks with the mentioned feats above or alternatives, I do like Ability Focus and Pain Touch but trying to find what's more important, where and when.
1 - Unarmed Combat, Stunning Fist, Magic in the Blood (enlarge & invis 3/day)
2 - Combat Reflexes
3 - ?
6 - Imp Trip, ?
9 - ?
12 - ?
15 - ?
18 - ?
Current Books in use: PHB, DMG, MM, Savage Species, CW, CD, and most likely any of the new Complete "____" series. Also Imp Natural Attack isn't avaliable for monks in this campaign...there would have to be a FAQ on that feat for monks specifically to convince the DM...sadly.
Thanks for the insight, this is perhaps the only thread I have read every posting.
:whatsthis
Nice guide for monks, Mean_Liar. I was wondering if you min/ma... I mean, "optimizers", could help me. I want to build a solid, fun, and optimized monk for Living Greyhawk, and here are the restrictions I have placed on me.
1) 28 point buy (Yes, I know that's low, but as a half orc, i can get 16 14 14 6 16 6, which i think is playable)
2) You cannot take feats from outside sources until third level (yes, so I can't take ability focus right off, and it delays pain touch and INA too T_T)
3) Expert Tactician is hard to get (you have to get campaign documentation for it, so I don't want to count on it).
What would you guys suggest for my first level feat? I know you guys said TWF, but I'm concerned about my ability to hit. Also, because it is a living campaign, most of the play will be generally low to mid level (I never expect to get above 14, to be honest, although it'll happen someday). That's why the 1st lvl feat is important. And yes, I'm probably sticking to half-orc, because that's the best way I can squeeze out the point buy.
Core books are allowed, as is CW, CD, and the old builder books ( although the older stuff has a lot of limitations, such as the expert tactician example).
Thanks for the help. Let me know what you guys come up with.
Kael
Originally posted by mean_liar
The IDM's die increases are not size increases.
For the record, I didn't imply that they were. But it's an important clarification to make nonetheless.
The example in the ability description has a d8 going to a d10. Therefore, it seemed most appropriate to me to add in the class feature last, as otherwise the resultant damage becomes cumbersome to calculate.
Yes, because of the absence of definition beyond d20, one's left to make a pure judgement call. FWIW, in talking about this with my DM, we decided [house rule!] that the die-type increase beyond d20 would simply cycle. I.e., d12->d20->d20+d4->d20+d6, etc.
The ImpNatAttack feat interaction with the monk's unarmed strike is the most contentious issue I've ever been involved in. Lots of folks have lots of opinions, but the conclusion that I've reached is that those that are against it are doing so for balance reasons, and have no real reasons based on the rules. Its pretty clear that the rules support such a use for INA; the only reason not to include it is because it gives such a substantial boost to the monk class. For a windier and more entertaining thread, visit HERE.
Read it. Almost all of it, even. And I can't help but roll my eyes at the countless people who say, "You're not citing anything beyond the single monk paragraph in the PHB," since it was blatantly obvious to me you had all sorts of backup.
In the end, there's no choice but to agree that the rules, as written, allow INA on monk attacks.
and I say....bump.
Originally posted by Ipsissimus
and I say....bump.
Yeah, because the 14 minutes that passed between my post and your bump really pushed this topic down on the 'current' list. ;)
So I thought I'd put something fresh in the mix, Large and in Charge was never mentioned in the thread...at least I didn't read it.
hey, game on...and buy my shirt.
seankreynolds.com
Your opinions on if a monk would be stronger if he just started monk and kept going, or he took a couple levels fighter first, then moved to monk?
if you read mean_liar's original post, you'll probably be able to discern that Ability Focus (stunning fist) seems to be the starting feat for virtually all the monks. Especially since not all the books are open to living greyhawk as home games.
In living campaigns with a 16 Str, are the encounters really going to be that difficult, especially early on? I've seen there comes a point in your adventuring where even the highest AC's which are near your CR can be hit at least 60%+ of the time. I don't think you should worry about that, you can always use flanking, items, and tripping.
He did mention if you are restricted to core books taking a level in Cleric (since your wisdom is the only passive stat worth mentioning) and the domains of Strength and maybe Luck. Then your 1st feat choice would be Scribe Scroll.
You realize though with a 6 Int, you're...well, can you even talk? IMO i've always found you can have more fun with a nice array of skills...granted with a 6 int that's going to be challenging but good luck with your guy.
--
and to summarize my posting...cough, I guess all I want to know now is "anyone consider taking Large and in Charge" for a monk who can enlarge themselves quite often? or why it wasn't mentioned in mean_liar's guide?
--
Maelstrom2090, who's your post directed towards?
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. By outside sources, I meant, Living Greyhawk does not allow ANY feats not in the PHB until 3rd level. Yes, that completely limits all mean_liar's builds, that's why I was asking. I really like ability focus (stunning fist), INA, and pain touch, but I'm not sure what order I should get them in and what I should get for my first lvl feat. I hope that clears up my question. Thanks for your reply though! Looking for more help!
Kael
Do you think being a wood elf would be better than a half orc? Which spread is better for a monk?
16 14 14 6 16 6 (half-orc)
16 16 12 6 16 6 (wood elf)
14 14 16 6 16 6 (dwarf, but slowness)
Thanks for your opinions!
Kael
After reading the thread, you should cleary see that the woodelf is much stronger as a monk for an LG game. Elves get a lot more racial perks than a half-orc does, though I am partial to dwarves the elf imo would be better...best part is you can use a bow until you get hardened enough to get in there.
So as for a 1st feat for LG, feat that come to mind taking into account most combat feats require +1 BAB...
- Blind-fight (never hurts)
- Dodge (in preparation for the Spring attack Tree)
- TWF (if you plan on taking it)
- Deflect Arrows (only because you'll probably take combat reflexes at 2nd lvl and i'm sure in LG you'll get targeted by a lot of missile weapons, it's not a great feat but it's not a bad feat either).
As you mentioned lvl 14 is about where you'll probably peak out...i'd go for Deflect Arrows just to avoid potential damage.
still, that 6 in Int makes me wary.
Blind-Fight (always cool)
Combat Reflexes (not bad, ppl will expect it I suppose, since I'm getting DA for my 2nd lvl bonus feat)
Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (questionable, but I will get permanent use out of it)
Toughness (really questionable, I only think of it because of the less than 14 con
)TWF (I guess it might become useful at higher levels)
I'm also not sure as to the order I should pick up Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, INA, and Pain touch for my 3rd, 6th, and 9th lvl feats. Suggestions? Thanks again for your help.
Kael
Originally posted by AznLyte
Thanks for the help. Yeah, I think the wood elf build is probably stronger, but a 12 con concerns me a bit. I'm a big fan of the 14 con (for all characters, really). But I think that's probably what I'm gonna go with. As for Deflect Arrows, I REALLY wanted to try it out. I was gonna ditch Combat reflexes, to be honest. Since Expert Tactician is probably not gonna happen, I was thinking combat reflexes might not be as useful, though I suppose it is still a legitimate pick. I've narrowed my first level feats down to
Blind-Fight (always cool)
Combat Reflexes (not bad, ppl will expect it I suppose, since I'm getting DA for my 2nd lvl bonus feat)
Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (questionable, but I will get permanent use out of it)
Toughness (really questionable, I only think of it because of the less than 14 con
TWF (I guess it might become useful at higher levels)
I'm also not sure as to the order I should pick up Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, INA, and Pain touch for my 3rd, 6th, and 9th lvl feats. Suggestions? Thanks again for your help.
Kael
One thing I would suggest is:
Weapon Proficiency: Guisarme or Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain and Combat Reflexes
While it is most effective at low levels, even at high levels, once you have improved trip, it could be extremely useful. Combat Reflexes does more than just give you extra AoOs, IT ALLOWS YOU TO TAKE AoOs WHILE FLATFOOTED! With a reach weapon, this is killer combo. While it doesn't help against quickly cast spells or arrows (although deflect arrows does), its good to trip incoming opponent and keep the attacks off you while you have no DEX.
Also... don't underestimate Improved Iniative. As a monk, going first with your improved speed can mean the difference between charging the mage and getting into AoO range, and the party getting hit by a spell.
Also, don't underestimate the Power Attack/Cleave option. It's not just for fighters anymore.
When people worry about templating, let me mention that my ECL 7 tiger has only a 5 BAB, but with improved multi attack I get attacks at +9, +9 (flurry), +7, +7 (claw) and +7 (bite).
Enlarged and choosing improved grapple as a HD feat, i get a +20 on the resisted grapple and that should be enough to take anyone down (although i found myself missing 2 of 5 grapples in the last encounter).Now granted, I have a +6 STR Mod, but that is easy enough. Add the pounce ability of the anthro tiger and you get +11/+11/+9/+9/+9/+20 resisted for a total of
3d6 + 2d4 + 33 if they all hit.
AznLyte, remember to take Weapon Focus (anything) or Exotic Wpn Prof. you need a BAB of at least +1, which monks do not have...I mentioned that earlier.;)
Combat Reflexes is nice, and yes as DragonsArt mentioned you get AoO's even when flatfooted. This allows you to get a jump start when the enemy surprises you and runs around everyone to set up flanking. Though I don't believe he has the luxury of investing in Power Attack/Cleave since he's pretty intent on 3 feats already...and the fact his campaign may not see beyond 14...but yes PA/Cleave is not just for fighters anymore.
As for when you would want to take INA, Ability Focus and Pain Touch? It would make sense to take Ability Focus first, then Pain Touch to get more mileage as mean_liar would put it from stunning fist, then INA. So by 9th lvl you should have accumulated enough hps, equipment, and allies to really get in there with the INA and pack some punch...no pun intended.
So, for your 1st lvls feats to help boost your survival at low levels, Deflect Arrows and just take Combat Reflexes at 2nd level.
Weapon focus you don't meet the requirements for, TWF at low lvl for a monk with point buy stats may have difficulty hitting things...I recall you mentioned that before, Toughness +3 hps...can't go wrong but you might be able to save yourself many times over with Deflect Arrows.
hope that helps
Originally posted by Ipsissimus
AznLyte, remember to take Weapon Focus (anything) or Exotic Wpn Prof. you need a BAB of at least +1, which monks do not have...I mentioned that earlier.;)
You may take a Level of Fighter first. Additional Feat and better BAB, Proficcient with lot's more weapons.
But only if you have an ECL+something Monk anyway, because it slows down the straight Monk20 by an additional Level.
A Point about Strength: I think Strength is generaly overrated, expecialy for Monks. You can do so much more with DEX. gives you higher Saves, good Ranged Attacks (and with Weapon Finess good Melee Attacks too). It's also usefull for a lot of Skills and Feats Like Deflect arrow (and the awsome feats to deflect even spells - as an Epic Monk)...
If i had to decie a Monks attributes the priorities would be:
DEX/WIS/CON/INT/STR/CHA...
Played a Wild-Elf Monk with those priorities and it worked out good
Originally posted by AznLyte
Also,
Do you think being a wood elf would be better than a half orc? Which spread is better for a monk?
16 14 14 6 16 6 (half-orc)
16 16 12 6 16 6 (wood elf)
14 14 16 6 16 6 (dwarf, but slowness)
Thanks for your opinions!
Kael
How did you do those spreads? what's tha base before applying race? lower that Elfs STR and give him more DEX, more WIS instead. raise CON a point (and later in the game another point)...
Aasimar could be good Monks too. WIS Bonus, no mali, Darkvision... or Tiefling. DEX and INT boni (DEX is good as mentioned above), INT for more Skills... and no mali to other attributes, also darkvision...
As for other points of interest and advice...just click 1 and reread mean_liar's monk guide.
As for alternate Monk races, the idea of an aasimar and tiefling seems solid but in a mid to low lvl campaign, and especially in Living Greyhawk, and according to AznLyte's post...it just doesn't seem worth in the long run.
Your stat spreads look fine, adding more Wis would just cripple your DEX or STR, I don't see LG games being insanely difficult like a Dark Sun or Planescape setting. Generally living campaigns seem to be easy - medium, with the occasional hard encounter. Besides, buying an 17 or 18 is expensive and since a Monk is very stat dependant you should be fine...i'm still wary about that 6 Int. ;)
The Wood elf modifiers are +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int. However, I think in LG they think that's tsoo pwoerful, and they changed it to as follows:
+2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int, -2 cha
with a 28 point buy, I can pay for
14, 14, 14, 8 16, 8 since 14 costs 6 points and 16 costs 10. 6+6+6+10= 28
After the modifiers, it becomes
16,16,12,6,16,6. So that's how I got it. Actually, LG core isn't too hard, but the regional mods are insane. I guess the Bandit Kingdoms (TX/OK) are full of power gamers, hehe.
You really think CR is that good without reach? And yeah, I did forget about the BAB pre req for Weapon Focus. T_T So it's pretty much CR or TWF, but TWF wouldn't even be useful until late, so I'll probably go with CR. Thanks for the help guys.
Kael
Stress STR over anything else with your Monk, unless you like being in a questionably important utility role. Someone that can Tumble and dodge is entertaining, but really isn't an impact role.
Said more bluntly, you can either be interesting or useful. I always take useful.
16 14 14 6 16 6 is superior to
16 16 12 6 16 6?
I mean, I know Dex is important, but hp is too. And yes, I like the darkvision. ^_^. Thanks for your post, mean_liar. You went towards my original idea, although I think deflect arrows is more useful than you give it credit for. But I've never tried it, so i guess we'll see.
Kael
Originally posted by AznLyte
I mean, I know Dex is important, but hp is too.
Obviously, YMMV, but I played a monk with a con of 13 for 20 levels. She finally got a +2 Tome at 20th, and slapped on a +4 health belt, so now she has broken 200. But I never had too much of a problem with her hitpoints previously, because she had stellar AC (good dex + wis == good AC == hit less often .. at that level, 1 missed strike + lower con == 1 successful strike + higher con, and there were at a few near-misses each combat).
although I think deflect arrows is more useful than you give it credit for. But I've never tried it, so i guess we'll see.
It's been my experience with most DMs that Deflect Arrows means you'll be the last person on the battlefield targetted by an archer, unless he has no clear shots to anyone else. I.e., it's stronger than just "deflect one arrow per round", it's more like "archer apathy". ;) And if you ever get to Epic, Exceptional Deflection + Infinite Deflection is awesome against even Epic
s.Since you're playing Living Greyhawk, though, keep in mind that it'll likely take years to get to 14th level, and you won't have much in the way of equipment to complement your build. That Ring of Enlarge might not be as easy to get as you think.
Your thoughts on Large and in charge, Stand Still, and Hold the Line for a large monk?
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Kael,
Remember you need at least a 15 in DEX to take TWF.
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Rooth,
Archer Apathy? lol
In our game, the monk with deflect arrows and snatch arrows was always targetted by at least 1 ranged weapon. DM always forgot so after he rolled damamge our monk would just say...I deflect it. Regardless his AC was really high so they missed most of the time anyway.
I think a smaller, high-DEX monk build will be superior...
Where would a small monk work? The new Races of Stone, Whisper Gnome is pretty insane 0 LA race. this being a DEX monk.
A lvl of fighter for the feat? Yeah, I can see it happening. For Kael in LG with a demi human race who's favored class is not Fighter? Not likely, the 20% exp penalty for a living game would be so harsh the character would take 3 years to get to lvl 14.
But I see your point.
And Race with DEX (and / or WIS) Bonus would qualify...
Wood Elf: +2 DEX +2 STR, no WIS penalty. (ok, -2 CON / INT / CHA)
Wild Elf: +2 DEX, -2 INT (you can life with that!)
or the new 3.5 Half-Elf (which would not have all those problems multiclassing)
Originally posted by Ipsissimus
Your thoughts on Large and in charge, Stand Still, and Hold the Line for a large monk?
Stand Still probably wouldn't be needed if you got Large and in Charge, and Hold the Line is a great feat even for non-Large monks, if they can find the room. Being able to attempt an Improved Trip twice on a charging character (assuming you have a polearm) is a really neat trick.
Large and in Charge though is probably one feat too many, especially if you got Hold the Line. Keeping your enemies at bay is nice if you have to hold an area, but it also tends to make your enemies flow into less-defended areas - such as towards the wizards. Then you end up chasing them and bringing them to bear anyway. Its a good tactical feat, but my experience is that simply beating your enemies to a pulp is arguably better and definitely more entertaining (for me, anyway).
...
Regarding DEX v CON, its a matter of numbers, +1 AC versus +1 hp/lvl. Assuming that most creatures that you fight have (for arguments sake) a 50% chance of hitting you (hitting on an 11+, 50% of all attacks), a +1 AC adjustment translates into a 10% reduction in overall damage (as they now hit on a 12+, meaning 45% of all attacks hit which is a 10% reduction from the 50% you would otherwise take).
So, you're taking 10% less hits when facing an 'average' enemy. That translates to 10% less damage. Compared to an average monk level, where say you have a 12 CON and are debating a 14 CON, your average hit points per level is 4.5 + 1 = 5.5 base, or 4.5 + 2 = 6.5 with the extra CON. That represents an 18% increase in damage capacity, which is better in all cases where your opponent cannot kill you in say, 1 or 2 hits.
In fact, the point where DEX is better than CON is when your average hit points per level is 10.5 base (a +6 CON adjustment) and you're debating an increase to 11.5 versus a +1 DEX.
Additionally, the numbers for DEX decrease as your enemies hit you more - stated differently, the more likely that you are to be hit the more you need CON rather than DEX. Only in cases where your opponent has difficulty in hitting you is DEX better. The breaking point where +1 AC trumps +1 hp/lvl is against opponents who only hit on a 17+ (20% of the time), and this break point pretty much stays at 17+ for all cases of +AC v +hp/lvl.
I consider attacks hitting only on 17+ to be a small enough subset of all attacks to say purposes for of character design, "CON is better than DEX."
But what about STR vs. DEX? I am still on the Point DEX is much more important...
Originally posted by Orkz
Nice analysis, i can gree on that. You may reconsider because of the fact that you can use DEX-Based Ref-Save to reduce area attck damage, some spell damage and traps... But i think you got me on that one.
But what about STR vs. DEX? I am still on the Point DEX is much more important...
Like Mean_lair said, it comes down to being interesting or useful. A monk who cartwheels around the field and occassionally scores a hit... with the occassional successful stun attack is interesting.
The monk who hits twice for 1d6 (or higher) + 3 (or higher from Str) is USEFUL.
I see your point with all 3, I should have said which of the 3 is most effective. I think Hold the Line will find it's way into my monk since I don't have access to a lot of the other books due to the setting of the campaign.
If I can pull it off, i'll attack the charging opponent first with Hold the Line, once provokes AoO from moving through, i'll try and trip him...hopefully I'll get it off and then IMP trip attack him with a stunning fist...if I get that then Expert Tactian kicks in for a 4th attack correct? (with a reach weapon or while enlarged or both).
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edit: someone brought to my attention that IMP trip doesnt work on an AoO...if that is true then I would just change the sequence of events and trip them last.
Otherwise, ill just try and trip him twice.
wow...thanks for sparking a great chain of attacks.
The trade off between the two, Str would allow you to hit more often and deal more damage so you spend less time in combat when we already know Con seems better than Dex.
So I agree, my roleplaying and how i use my skills will make me interesting...my choice of feats and abilty points will make me useful.
Though I like having a really high AC, if i'm not scoring any hits i'm sure the opponsition will switch targets to someone that he can hit.
I liked mean_liar's analysis of dex vs con, which told me with numbers what I know from play testing (con keeps you alive better than dex). Personally, I am very queasy playing any char with less than a 14 con (Except maybe a d10 or above hp). That being said, I think that the half-orc build is probably superior to the wood elf one.
And no, we can't be wild elves. LGCS only allows the wood elf, gray elf, mountain dwarf, tallfellow, deep halfling (off the top of my head).
Do you guys think that Combat Reflexes is really that good (without reach?) I have no idea how you guys are using polearms (unless you're just taking -4 to attacK or multiclassing). I simply like deflect arrows because from personal experience I think it would help dramatically in LG. Because of the 14 dex, TWF is out, leaving Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, or perhaps improved init. I'm less inclined to take blind fight if i have darkvision. Any other suggestions I missed? or did I wrap that up pretty well?
Kael
You should really reread mean_liar's monk minmax creation guide. Press 1 on the tab and read it from top to bottom it will answer all the questions you just asked.
But i'm waiting for my ride so...
Combat Reflexes/Pole Arm attack
You can use a polearm to make trip attacks with a 10 ft. reach, even though you suffer -4 to using a wpn you don't have prof. in, a trip attack is a touch attack so it should be pretty easy to pull off. Then if they are within 5 ft. of you, you can just work'em with your elbows and knees as your unarmed attacks.
Combat Reflexes/otherwise
As mentioned a few times before, in fact in response to your inquiry. You can apply combat reflexes even without a reach wpn. You now have to ability to make AoO's while flatfooted.
If you read every build, 99% of them have combat reflexes...there must be a reason.
Blind fight/darkvision
Darkvision and Blind Fight? What does darkvision have to do against not allowing invisible attackers a bonus to hit? Also, I don't recall any elves in your list of elves that you might be choosing that has Darkvision...unless of course a half-orc is an elf. ;)
What should you take?
Just take Deflect Arrows as your 1st lvl feat, it will save your skin for 1 lvl when you can decide what you want to take at lvl 2...which would be Combat Reflexes since you already have DA. You seem to think it's really worth it.
my last suggestion.
Reread the entire from the beginning.
Originally posted by DragonsArt
The monk who hits twice for 1d6 (or higher) + 3 (or higher from Str) is USEFUL.
A Monk that hits a lot with d6+4 (from WIS) is nice too. You can use Weapon Finess to attack roll with DEX in melee and (if your GM allows it) Ki of the Masters to add WIS instead of STR to Melee damage. Only two attributes to max out, both add to a lot of skills and add to saves... But ok, you will need two more feats. (Fighter 2?)
Originally posted by Orkz
A Monk that hits a lot with d6+4 (from WIS) is nice too. You can use Weapon Finess to attack roll with DEX in melee and (if your GM allows it) Ki of the Masters to add WIS instead of STR to Melee damage. Only two attributes to max out, both add to a lot of skills and add to saves... But ok, you will need two more feats. (Fighter 2?)
You still have to get to that point though. Ki of the Masters is at the cost of a feat and Shiba Protector has even steeper feat requirements, while a STR monk comes off-the-shelf with good hit and damage potential. Throwing Weapon Finesse on top is yet another feat used to bring him up to speed. Why not stack WIS with STR anyway, instead of choosing one or the other?
If you're going to spend 2 feats, I think Shiba Protector is the better choice at the cost of 3 feats (IIRC). You can stack you WIS modifier to both attack and damage. This also synergises better with a STR monk than DEX, since it stacks right on with no extra feats required.
What's that PrC that lets you add WIS to Damage and Attack?
STR 12 / DEX max / CON 14+ / INT 12+ / WIS max / CHA whocares
Fighter 1: Weapon Finess, and up to 2 more feats (human and 1st level one)
and Monk from there... Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes...
Select an ECL0 race with DEX (and / or WIS) Bonus and rule the battlefield...
DEX helps to deflect arrows (Ref-save) and against area spells (Evasion), it adds to a lot of cool skills and not only for juggling balls to make your enemys laugh...
Kael
Ok, so it's just good for normal Ref-Saves against spells, AC, Skills with DEX Bonus, Ranged and Close combat attacks...
With +4 DEX (or +5 for elfes?) a 10 ft. reach weapon, combat reflexes...
Who cares if you do +1 or +3 damage when you can attack half the battlefield when it moves your direction?
It may be a different way to build a Monk, but it works, at least agree on that guys!
The trade off between the two, Str would allow you to hit more often and deal more damage
(Emphasis mine.)
The bolded statement is incorrect. In fact, a Dex-based Monk would probably hit more often than a Str-based one. The reason? A Dex-based Monk can dump Str more readily and to a greater degree than a Str-based Monk can dump Dex. Ultimately, a Monk needs AC, which means that at least a moderately good Dex is required. Extra ability-based damage, on the other hand, is something of a luxury– a 10 in Str is perfectly acceptably for a Dex Monk because of Necklaces of Natural Attacks and the innately high Monk base damage. The result is that the Str-based Monk has stats that look something like Str: 16, Dex: 14, whereas the Dex-based Monk has something more along the lines of Str: 10, Dex: 18.
So, in effect, a Dex-based Monk trades pure damage (and quite a bit of it in the higher levels) for (possibly) slightly better attack bonuses, much better AC and much better Init mods. Not the best choice for a primary fighter-type, but there are worse.
Originally posted by SuperThread
(Emphasis mine.)
The bolded statement is incorrect. In fact, a Dex-based Monk would probably hit more often than a Str-based one. The reason? A Dex-based Monk can dump Str more readily and to a greater degree than a Str-based Monk can dump Dex. Ultimately, a Monk needs AC, which means that at least a moderately good Dex is required. Extra ability-based damage, on the other hand, is something of a luxury– a 10 in Str is perfectly acceptably for a Dex Monk because of Necklaces of Natural Attacks and the innately high Monk base damage. The result is that the Str-based Monk has stats that look something like Str: 16, Dex: 14, whereas the Dex-based Monk has something more along the lines of Str: 10, Dex: 18.
So, in effect, a Dex-based Monk trades pure damage (and quite a bit of it in the higher levels) for (possibly) slightly better attack bonuses, much better AC and much better Init mods. Not the best choice for a primary fighter-type, but there are worse.
I'm not certain I agree that a DEX based monk will hit more often, but obviously, the less stats you have to worry about, the more you can put into each stat.
Now, with STR, you WILL do more damage, however if you pump up your DEX and use Finese, you will in fact hit more often, which gives your special abilities more chance to go off.
However, don't forget that STR affects TRIP, if you are going for improved trip.
All in all, it really comes down to what you want to be. If you want to be the muscular John-Claude VanDam type of monk, then you go more for STR. If you want to be the jumping, leaping around Jacky Chan type of monk, go with DEX.
It all depends on your character really. But regardless, always try to bump CON. A dead monk's STR or DEX or even WIS doesn't really matter.
Build 1
Using VoP, ML suggestions for Monk feats and character level feats. 11th level char with 32 point build. AC ends up being 30.
S16 I10 W 20 D 14 C16 Cha 10 (after adjustments 2 to level and VoP)
1 Sanctify Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph’s Kiss, Stunning Attack, AC +4 (VoP), Flurry, Unarmed Strike
2 Intuitive Attack, Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3 Improved Natural Attack (d10 damage), Endure Elements, AC +5 (VoP), Still Mind
4 Touch of Golden Ice, Exalted Strike +1 Magic, Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall, 2d6 unarmed damage, +1 ability (level 4 character)
5 Sustenance, +1 AC (Monk), Purity of Body
6 Sanctify Natural Attack, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack), Improved Trip (Monk), Deflection +1 & AC +6 (VoP), Slow Fall 30’
7 Resistance, Ability Score +2 (VoP), Wholeness of Body
8 Nimbus of Light, Natural Armor +1 (VoP), Mind Shield, 2d8 unarmed damage, slow fall 40’, +1 Ability (level 8 character)
9 Rapid Stunning, Improved Evasion, AC +7 (VoP)
10 Gift of Faith, Exalted strike +2 (good), DR 5/magic, +2 AC (Monk)
11 Ability Boost +4/+2 (VoP), Diamond Body, Greater Flurry +8/+8/+8/+3
Build 2
Using UA Cobra style. S16 I10 W 20 D 14 C16 Cha 10 (after adjustments 2 to level and VoP). AC is 32.
1 Sanctify Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph’s Kiss,AC +4 (VoP), Flurry, Unarmed Strike, Skill Bonus +2 Escape Artist, Dodge
2 Intuitive Attack, Mobilty , Evasion
3 Stunning Attack, Endure Elements, AC +5 (VoP), Still Mind
4 Touch of Golden Ice, Exalted Strike +1 Magic, Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall, +1 ability (level 4 character)
5 Sustenance, +1 AC (Monk), Purity of Body
6 Sanctify Natural Attack, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack), Improved Trip (Monk), Deflection +1 & AC +6 (VoP), Slow Fall 30’,
7 Resistance, Ability Score +2 (VoP), Wholeness of Body
8 Nimbus of Light, Natural Armor +1 (VoP), Mind Shield, slow fall 40’, +1 ability (level 8 character)
9 Rapid Stunning, Improved Evasion, AC +7 (VoP)
10 Gift of Faith, Exalted strike +2 (good), DR 5/magic, +2 AC (Monk)
11 Ability Boost +4/+2 (VoP), Diamond Body, Greater Flurry +8/+8/+8/+3
Build 3
More of a melee toe to toe monk....AC still 30. Same stats.
Melee Monk
1 Sanctify Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph’s Kiss, Stunning Attack, AC +4 (VoP), Flurry, Unarmed Strike
2 Intuitive Attack, Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3 Improved Natural Attack (d10 damage), Endure Elements, AC +5 (VoP), Still Mind
4 Touch of Golden Ice, Exalted Strike +1 Magic, Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall, 2d6 unarmed damage, +1 ability (level 4 character)
5 Sustenance, +1 AC (Monk), Purity of Body
6 Sanctify Natural Attack, Fists of Iron, Improved Trip (Monk), Deflection +1 & AC +6 (VoP), Slow Fall 30’
7 Resistance, Ability Score +2 (VoP), Wholeness of Body
8 Nimbus of Light, Natural Armor +1 (VoP), Mind Shield, 2d8 unarmed damage, slow fall 40’, +1 Ability (level 8 character)
9 Rapid Stunning, Improved Evasion, AC +7 (VoP)
10 Gift of Faith, Exalted strike +2 (good), DR 5/magic, +2 AC (Monk)
11 Ability Boost +4/+2 (VoP), Diamond Body, Greater Flurry +8/+8/+8/+3
Max unarmed damage vs. evil is 2d8+1d6+2 (VoP)+1+Str.
Thoughts?
My vote is for #1.
ML,
Why not the Cobra style (giving dodge, mobility, spring attack) as bonus feats, picking up stunning fist, skill focus(stunning fist) and rapid stunning for feats at 3rd, 6th, and 9th?
Why do you like the standard monk feats with improved natural attack, skill focus(stunning fist) and rapid stunning for feats at 3rd, 6th, and 9th?
How about my Exalted feat selection? I stayed away from the ones requiring high CHA, as I thought that CHA and INT should be my dump stat.
Your #1 can't get Improved Unarmed Attack so early, and your #2 should have Spring Attack for the 6th level bonus feat.
That said, its more of a campaign/party specific question. Build #1 will still get Improved Natural Attack, but Build #2 won't get it until level 12 at least.
If your party needs a tactician more, Build #2 is better.
Speaking of which, if you wanted to do the tactician thing better, I would recommend taking the Vow of Nonviolence in Build #2. The +4 to Stun Attacks is really useful, but some parties have a tough time with taking prisoners. Your results may vary.
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The Improved Natural Attack feat requires the character to have natural weapons. Monk unarmed attacks are considered natural weapons only for the purposes of the effects of spells and abilities. A feat is not considered a spell or ability, so monks are not eligible for this feat unless they are also creatures that have natural weapons.
Thanks!
*Please quote this e-mail in any reply.*
Darrin
Wizards of the Coast Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496
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Monk unarmed attacks are considered natural weapons only for the purposes of the effects of spells and abilities. A feat is not considered a spell or ability, so monks are not eligible for this feat unless they are also creatures that have natural weapons.
Hehe are you trying to get mean liar mad? ;)
Besides you quoted wrongly...it's spells and effects not spells and abilities...and noone yet claimed that a feat is not an effect...so if you want to continue the debate you would have to argue that.
mean_liar with or without IMA will still dominate as a monk, i've yet to see examples that would convince me otherwise.
As for quoting wrongly? How can I quote wrongly when I just copied and pasted an email from WotC? Call the number, ask for Darrin and tell him he quoted me in my email wrongly.
:whatsthis
"Yeah, I couldn't hit harder until I grew fangs. Now its all good."
I wouldn't mind if the feat gets pulled from Monks by virtue of a rewrite to the feat or a rewrite to the unarmed attack description for the Monk class, but to disallow it based on the rules-as-written and nothing else is shaky reasoning.
If the SEARCH function was working, I could direct you to an old thread full of arguments from both sides. The thread is linked once or twice in this thread, but darned if I know where to look in the 14+ pages.
To be honest, I haven't been too impressed with the Reps or the Sage. Too often their responses on contentious issues require errata of some kind to justify, and not consultation of the rules.
You might want to note that by his interpretation of the Unarmed Strike passage from the Monk class description, a Monk cannot take the Improved Critical feat for his unarmed strike. In this example of a Rep decision, an "effect" and "ability" are not considered "feats". Okay, so then what is an "effect" when it is not a "spell"? When do Monks get to enjoy this undefined and apparently arbitrary "effect" listed in the unarmed attack class description? Why did the Rep quote "ability" instead as if that word actually appeared in the Unarmed Strike class feature?
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Thats about as clear as it gets. I could say more, but I already have before and I want to keep my invective to a minimum.
IMO it works, in my DM's opinion it's too broken to work, the Darrin the Rep say it doesn't, many other ppl say it does.
Unfortunately our DM isn't as openminded as we'd like to unless its in his favor. Boo on him. I need to change his opinion...he still think Sundering is a Standard action and only one sunder attempt can be done per round. Otherwise he's a @#@$# of a devil's advocate rules lawyers who is just confused with a few here and there.
I do recall reading about the huge thread on it, I even remember posting about not agreeing at first because martial arts and improved natural attack didn't make sense in theory. They should just make a new feat called, Monkey Fist, just like Monkey Grip but with monk unarmed attacks.
I hate it when rules don't get republished/revised in 3.5, as they remain stagnant in previous books with a huge grey area, or just don't get resolved so it fuels the boards.
I think Darrin plays Magic and spells and effects are instants and enchantments...grrrrr.
--
On a lighter note, my monk is alive and struggling against the forces of evil simply because monk equipment seems to be less common than armor, swords, and wands...but i'm alive and will dominate once I hit lvl 6.
After reading a lot of guides to classes, I noticed that yours didn't include a chapter on skills and your opinion on them. Probably trivial to some but it would "complete" a guide would it not?
i.e. how many times do you actually use Concentration, Listen or Spot?, Escape Artist worth it when you're large? etc. The Uberling's Druid guide is a good example of skill priority.
I'm trying to develop a poison fist (not like the one in Dragon Mag, i'm still a straight up monk until something really catches my eye), as a duergar and eventually a monk you'll be immune to all poisons. So crafting poison then applying them to your attacks would seem pretty effective in theory. Especially ones that drain con/str for purposes of fort saves and resisting trips.
I made an error, I think. I didn't look closely enough at what you had.
Your #1 can't get Improved Unarmed Attack so early, and your #2 should have Spring Attack for the 6th level bonus feat.
That said, its more of a campaign/party specific question. Build #1 will still get Improved Natural Attack, but Build #2 won't get it until level 12 at least.
If your party needs a tactician more, Build #2 is better.
Speaking of which, if you wanted to do the tactician thing better, I would recommend taking the Vow of Nonviolence in Build #2. The +4 to Stun Attacks is really useful, but some parties have a tough time with taking prisoners. Your results may vary.
Build #1
Using VoP, ML suggestions for Monk feats and character level feats. 11th level char with 32 point build. AC ends up being 30.
S16 I10 W 20 D 14 C16 Cha 10 (after adjustments 2 to level and VoP)
1 Sanctify Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph’s Kiss, Stunning Attack, AC +4 (VoP), Flurry, Unarmed Strike
2 Intuitive Attack, Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3 Fist of Iron, Endure Elements, AC +5 (VoP), Still Mind
4 Touch of Golden Ice, Exalted Strike +1 Magic, Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall, 2d6 unarmed damage, +1 ability (level 4 character)
5 Sustenance, +1 AC (Monk), Purity of Body
6 Sanctify Natural Attack, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack), Improved Trip (Monk), Deflection +1 & AC +6 (VoP), Slow Fall 30’
7 Resistance, Ability Score +2 (VoP), Wholeness of Body
8 Nimbus of Light, Natural Armor +1 (VoP), Mind Shield, slow fall 40’, +1 Ability (level 8 character)
9 Rapid Stunning, Improved Evasion, AC +7 (VoP)
10 Gift of Faith, Exalted strike +2 (good), DR 5/magic, +2 AC (Monk)
11 Ability Boost +4/+2 (VoP), Diamond Body, Greater Flurry +8/+8/+8/+3
Hmm.....When can you get Improved Unarmed Attack? Or would you take Ablity Focus (stunning attack) at 3rd and Improved Unarmed at 6th? If I wanted to avoid the whole debate above, what would you take instead? Fist of Iron? What if you didn't want to do the whole Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack Tree at 3rd, 6th and 9th with the PH Monk? This could better be accomplished with the Cobra style from UA (build #2). Sounds like you favor the tactitian (dodge tree, stunning specialist) over a toe to toe monk, right?
Really, the beatdown style monk is dominating but there's a lot of requirements to pull it off - open access to several (sometimes obscure) sources for magic items, INA, high stats. With a more "ordinary" campaign setup, the Tactician is certainly stronger.
Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave
or
Dodge/Defensive Throw (and probably Deflect Arrows as an extra)
The long version:
My stats are:
Str 15 (+1 at 8th)
Dex 14
Con 13 (+1 at 4th)
Wis 16
Int: 11
Cha: 11
I'm making a Human Monk in Eberron, using Player's Handbook, Complete Warrior, and the Eberron campaign book as sources. My character is going to be dragonmarked (fits his story), so here are the feats I've got lined up:
1: *Improved Unarmed Strike, *Stunning Fist, Least Dragonmark, ?
2: *Combat Reflexes or *Deflect Arrows
3: ?
6: *Improved Trip, Lesser Dragonmark
9: ?
12: Improved Critical
15: Freeze Lifeblood
Notes:
* indicates a bonus Monk feat
? indicates an undecided feat
Also, I am not going to be taking Improved Natural Attack from the Eberron book. I don't want to get involved in that debate, so just pretend it's off limits.
What do you think? I actually want both Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows, so I may take one of them as a regular feat. I'm wondering if I'll get more mileage (read: bonus attacks) from Cleave/Great Cleave or Defensive Throw.
Other feats I'd like are Pain Touch and Weapon Focus, but I don't think I can fit those in.
But i have to say: i didn't calculate it. too tired
So on with my request. I understand the importance of being large as a Monk. I'm trying to add alot of Aikido flare, so I was thinking Denying Stance from UA, taking Defensive Strike and Defensive Throw in addition to Improved Trip and possibly Earth's Embrace. Eyes in the Back of your Head too for flavor. I'm looking for a build with an absurb AC to boot, and I've been drawing a blank. these are tentative and I'm not sure how it would all actually play out.
I figure if anyone can optimize this idea for me, it'd be Mean. He's a beast. I welcome any/all suggestions Cheers.
Amazing that this thread keeps getting additions to it. Well, I'm about to add one more. One the subject of Monks, I want to try and simulate an Aikido-ish Master. I think my rolls are decent enough for it: 18, 17, 17, 17, 16, 14. The DM punched me in the face after I rolled them. Anyways, I figured I really can't mess up too badly with those.
So on with my request. I understand the importance of being large as a Monk. I'm trying to add alot of Aikido flare, so I was thinking Denying Stance from UA, taking Defensive Strike and Defensive Throw in addition to Improved Trip and possibly Earth's Embrace. Eyes in the Back of your Head too for flavor. I'm looking for a build with an absurb AC to boot, and I've been drawing a blank. these are tentative and I'm not sure how it would all actually play out.
I figure if anyone can optimize this idea for me, it'd be Mean. He's a beast. I welcome any/all suggestions Cheers.
Having done aikido on and off for nine years, and having played D&D for at least 12 years, I can conclusively tell you that 3e has no good way of representing Aikido. With your ability scores, however, I think you'll do just fine ;)
In D&D terms, Aikido (as I'm sure you know) is all about grappling and tripping.
Unfortunately, I don't know of any ways to base (or add to) grappling and tripping on a character's Wisdom (most likely), Int, or Dex. This puts a crimp in the truth that my girlfriend, having a lower Str score then me (and almost a smaller size category - JK), can absolutely kick my ass (well, wrist lock my ass or something). She is probably just higher level, but the rules problem remains.
That said, dump your 18 in strength, pretend that your character is throwing with Ki rather then muscle, and take Great throw [OA], Defensive throw [OA] Grappling block [OA], Elusive target [CW], and all of the prerequisites of course.
Other feats that improve your grappling and tripping ability are optional. I have met some Aikidoists with Improved trip, but that is not standard training. That is for the 'ninja-aikidoists,' who learn to throw your in the most gentle way imaginable and then break your neck. Which reminds me, I need to find out where their dojo is...
Anyway, awesome character concept, good luck making it work!
Haven't had the chance to check stuff from OA yet, but I can't find Elusive Target in CW assuming CW stands for Complete Warrior. Maybe I'm not looking for it in the right spot of the book...
Page 110.
I practice Tai Chi Praying Mantis, and have had no troubles in finding minmaxed feats that are appropriate, precisely for the reasons its difficult to create an effective akidoka. A style whose early external training makes it a viable candidate for DnD's "hit them hard multiple times" representation of combat (including Combat Reflexes, Imp Natural Attack, and Imp Trip), with the later internal training nicely corresponding to the time at which you would take Rapid Stunning and Pain Touch (and you might as well toss in early Chi Gung training for Ability Focus).
If you really want to play a monk based on aikido, I suggest that you make some suggestions to your DM as to custom feats which would allow you to accomplish what you'd like to. Don't make them overpowered, but you know the principles of your style better than anyone and presumably would be able to develop just a few feats to let you be what you want. A feat to add WIS to Trip attempts when Readying an action to interrupt an enemy attack immediately comes to mind, and you'd only need a few more - you don't have many feat slots to play with anyway. A +3 to your Stun DCs on Imp Trip attacks against Tripped enemies? A WIS bonus to grapples (maybe requiring a Stun Attack use to trigger, lasting for 3+WIS rounds)? I'm sure you can think of a lot of cool stuff your sensei does that you'd like to do ... might as well get a preview of the coolness you'll learn for real later by giving it to your characters now!
I LOVE martial arts.
I practice Tai Chi Praying Mantis, and have had no troubles in finding minmaxed feats that are appropriate, precisely for the reasons its difficult to create an effective akidoka.
[OT] Tai Chi Praying Mantis, that sounds promising. I was just thinking today that I really need to start learning a martial art that I can cut loose with (not on peolpe!) when I'm ****** off. Something with pressure point blows (finger and palms rather then fists), and maybe organ/'soft flesh' grab/tears a la eagle or tiger Kung fu.
Aikido and Capoeira just don't cut it when you really want to practice something agressive.
My girlfriend has been saying the same thing, but no pressure points for her! She would probably abuse her power.
-And seriously, I'm really a very nice, calm person. I woulden't have studied Aikido so long otherwise!- [/OT]
If you really want to play a monk based on aikido, I suggest that you make some suggestions to your DM as to custom feats which would allow you to accomplish what you'd like to. Don't make them overpowered, but you know the principles of your style better than anyone and presumably would be able to develop just a few feats to let you be what you want. A feat to add WIS to Trip attempts when Readying an action to interrupt an enemy attack immediately comes to mind, and you'd only need a few more - you don't have many feat slots to play with anyway. A +3 to your Stun DCs on Imp Trip attacks against Tripped enemies? A WIS bonus to grapples (maybe requiring a Stun Attack use to trigger, lasting for 3+WIS rounds)? I'm sure you can think of a lot of cool stuff your sensei does that you'd like to do ... might as well get a preview of the coolness you'll learn for real later by giving it to your characters now!
The problem with making lots of feats like that is it makes the style to difficult to use at low levels.
If you're taking feats that let you apply your Wisdom to various things, the high Str guy is meanwhile taking the feats that you don't have the slots for yet, and is naturally better then you at them.
To make it balanced, it would probably have to be a class. That way you could grant the appropriate feats and allow you could allow for the use of various mental ability scores and dexterity in place of strength (with those feats). It would have to include some signifigant dafeguards as well. Forcing the character to fight defensively to use the abilities would make sense.
Just to throw some ideas out:
Let the aikidoist feint with Diplomacy! And possibly Concentration.
At risk of getting too clunky, when the aikidoist uses Defensive throw+great throw, use the aikidoist's highest mental ability score or the opponent's strength score (whichever is greater) to determine the damage dealt. Add Power attack damage too if using that Elusive target ability.
Don't give them I'mproved unarmed strike. Ya, all Aikidoists have 'learned how to attack.' After all, how could we practice otherwise? Regardless, I have yet to meet someone who learned how to effectively make an unarmed strike from Aikido.
Important skills: Tumble, Concentration, ?Sense motive?. Maybe thats why I haven't progressed as far as I probably should have: No Sense motive
-
Oh ya, they accidentally left Great throw out of OA, despite all of the references. Here it is:
[edit] Due to Mean's suggestion, less is more!
Aikido mastery I
Requirements: Improved unarmed strike, Dodge, Expertise, Improved trip, Combat reflexes, Defensive throw, Great throw, Improved grapple.
Benefits: When you make a Trip attempt, you may substitute dexterity, charisma, or wisdom for strength. When making a grapple check, you may substitute dexterity, inteligence, or wisdom for strength. You may also take Grappling block as if you had Deflect arrows.
Aikido mastery II
Requirements: Aikido mastery I, Defensive strike, Lightning reflexes, Prone attack.
Benefit: When taking the all-out defense action, you may take a number of attacks of opportunity equal to your Dex modifier plus your Wisdom modifier.
Aikido mastery III
Requirements: Aikido mastery I, Improved disarm, Grappling block.
Benefit: You may make as many Grappling blocks as you have free attacks of opportunity. You may substitute dexterity or wisdom for strength when making a disarm check.
Aikido mastery IIII
Requirements: Aikido mastery I, Aikido mastery II, Mobility, Elusive target.
Benefit: You may specify a number of opponents for your Dodge feat equal to your dexterity or wisdom modifier.
If Elusive target's Diverting defense and Defensive throw succesfully take effect while you are engaged in the all-out defense action, you may make a special "rondori" attack. As a free action, you may take a 5' step and then make a Great throw attempt against each opponent in reach. You gain the +4 bonus to attack from Defensive strike when execting this action.
That seems a bit better
[/Edit]...
Pressure points don't figure to be overly prominent in TCPM - there are finger and 2nd knuckle strikes to lymph nodes and genitals, but the most prominent maneuvers are the deflect/grab/attack to joints/vitals. The style doesn't focus too much on throws or grabs as methods of controlling distance so much as tossing an opponent out of your way after you've shattered a limb.
A good example is called "Iron Bull Plows the Ground", where you break the arm/floating ribs and then use the momentum to throw your opponent onto his head.
In the spirit of Optimization, I would think those Style Masteries could be snuck past the DM with less rigorous prereqs. ;)
Well, I do agree. So I dropped mastery I to 8 feats (still a bit high), and added two more!
This is why I think that Fighters should get a feat every level.
Pressure points don't figure to be overly prominent in TCPM - there are finger and 2nd knuckle strikes to lymph nodes and genitals, but the most prominent maneuvers are the deflect/grab/attack to joints/vitals. The style doesn't focus too much on throws or grabs as methods of controlling distance so much as tossing an opponent out of your way after you've shattered a limb.
A good example is called "Iron Bull Plows the Ground", where you break the arm/floating ribs and then use the momentum to throw your opponent onto his head.
Sounds refreshingly different from what I've been doing.
I could go on a rant about the Ki society going to **** with the "One-ness relaxation exercise," which is really just a money grubbing piece of crap clone of radio taiso and dosen't teach anything of value --Oops, ranting a bit to much. I'll stop :P
Perhaps for Aikido Mastery I, since Aikido requires a knowledge AND ability to manipulate your hands, seeing that it's so feat heavy, maybe you could get away with replacing STR with WIS AND adding DEX. This'll help with the fact that he'll be tripping without weapons in the long run. Also, it'll keep in stride with Aikido Master II and A.M. IV. Excellent work you guys.
I've got a friend that took Judo for several years which is kinda similar to Aikido. I'll see if I can't work with him and try to refine these wonderful ideas and then present them to the DM. Should you get another creative flood, please share ;).
But now I'll need a race or template with a low LA that's large that adds to WIS and DEX...
I am in the process of creating the monk equivalent of the Psychic Warrior and the Psychic Rogue. As of this post, the current version is .3. As there are some very serious-minded people with a strong grasp of what the monk should and should not be, I am hoping that by posting the link here I will get the benefit of your expertise as well as (hopefully) making a worthy contribution to the subject (of monks) as well.
My goal is to make a Psionic Monk core class that is a true equivalent of the Psychic Monk and Psychic Rogue. The finalized version should be professional enough that any DM will feel comfortable adding it to any campaign that allows psionics.
All thoughts and input will be highly appreciated.
My first time here, loved the guide so far, eventhough i struggled quite a bit with it, being more of a n00b in these matters than not
So, here's my case...
Human monk of 3rd level (starting with 3rd, so no feats selected so far), soon to be 4th.
str 16, dex14, con13, int12, wis 14, cha 12
Now, i've though everything out, except for the feats. I must mention i'm going for VoP, though the reason for my monk not possesing any material wealth is not the same as BoED says, so my DM and i made an adjustment to the benefits: Instead of bonus Exalted feats gained by VoP i can choose standard feats - any other ones.
This gives me a awsome lot of feats to choose from. So, i thought i'd ask for some help, before i start messing around with it and piling them together randomly
So far i've looked through the feats mean_liar suggested but they're intended for monks who're getting feats the usual way. I thought about just adding them together, but they might clash with each other, or at least not complement themselves as well as they could.
Oh, i think we will not advance very fast, so it'd be good if i had something nice at low level already. Like US as a bonus feat from PoV at level 4 (assuming my DM allows it, will answer soon)
There's something else that's been bugging me... Monks seem to have a whole lot of ways to deal with humanoids. There's standard Stunning Fist, Unbalancing strike as well as Improved Trip automaticaly gained. So, there're 3 ways of doing that. As far as i understand Expert Tactician, it grants an extra free attack against an opponent hit by either of these three methods. Why, then, do you guys recommend Unbalancing strike as well?
Thanks!
Instead of bonus Exalted feats gained by VoP i can choose standard feats - any other ones.
I am by no means a monk expert, but hot corn that's some serious feat action you got going on there. How about dedicating some of those feats to being able to handle non-humanoids (not sure what route would be best) but the times I used a Monk I always felt put off when not fighting humanoids. And obviously fighting humanoids is what monks do best but if you could find a way to be more effective against non-humanoids that might be a good idea. I'm sure others will have much more specific ideas than me.
Cheers,
Necro
In any case, I would recommend picking up a few main tricks -
Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack
Stunning Attack/Ability Focus/Pain Touch/Rapid Stunning/Unbalancing Strike
Combat Reflexes/Expert Tactician
Improved Unarmed Strike
Imp Trip/Knockdown
Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Imp Critical (unarmed)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
...and thats enough feats for the first 12 levels.
After that point, I think the only thing that comes to mind is qualifying for Style Masteries from OA. Empty Hand Mastery is a nice one, so is Meditation of War.
It doesn't help that I haven't chosen whether to stick with Monk all the way or aim for Initiate of Pistis Sophia PrC yet. I am considering the TWF - Pin Shield kind of route. CW brought a lot of pretty nifty feats to the fore, not to forget Sun Style which I have considered as well. The other choice is to go for the whole selection of Stuning Fist alternatives. With Fist of the Heavens and Ability Focus you are already talking about +4 to the DC so it might be worth it.
Then I start to think about the Whirlwind Attack route, and the GTWF route, or the Power Attack - Improved Sunder route and I am buggered if I can make up my mind!
Despite twenty years of D&D this is the first monk I have played and any advice would be appreciated.
His stats are 16, 17, 16, 16, 16, 15 (damn good rolling!), he is even more exalted than most exalted characters, his primary devotion is to Estanna (community, protection, good) and he is also committed to Pistis Sophia via his Servant of the Heavens feat (and later Vow of Obedience).
Thanks for any help.
Its not that those routes are necessarily bad, but I think that there are better feats available.
On the Initiate PrC, I really don't think its all that hot unless you REALLY wanted Exalted feats over and above the VoP options. Its performance is subpar compared to even a base monk, though there are choices in OA and 3rd party stuff that really blow it away.
It'd be fun playing a large monstrosity ;)
Now, the feats. I've gone through the builds at the first page and sorted them together.
lvl1: Stunning Fist,Sacred Vow, Vow of poverty, Dodge
lvl2: Combat Reflexes, Touch of Golden Ice
lvl3: Expert Tactician
lvl4: Mobility or Ability Focus: Stunning Fist or Weapon Focus (Stat increase.. If i increase con it'll become 14, thus giving me a hp/level. If i increase Wisdom it'll be 15 giving me acces to Pain touch and Unbalancing strike. Otherwise i'd have to wait until 7th level when i get +2 to wisdom from VoP)
lvl5: none
lvl6: Improved Natural Attack, Mobilty (if it's been chosen at 4th level then Spring Attack)
lvl7: none
lvl8: Unbalancing Strike or Pain Touch
Well, this is what i managed to put together. I'm just not experienced in these matters, so i'm really not sure if this mess of mine'll do any good.
So, looking forward to responces!
Edit, forgot to mention the rest of the party. We have a banist cleric, a rogue, a dwarven fighter/wizard and a samurai. This monk is the fifth member.
Goliath is featured prominently in Races of Stone.
Geee, it's Awsome!
str +6, con+2, int, cha, dex -2, AC+4, Large size, Darkvision, Reach 10 ft. for only ECL +1
Well, i'll surely try to persuade my DM to let me use it :D
btw, took a look at the feats?
hah, i know, it must be dull to keep listing cool builds for people :embarrass
Wheee, i can already imagine this big brute crushing enemies and tossing the fellow dwarf into them. I'll adjust his scores, though, he's also pursuing philosophy - primary stat is wisdom, also increasing with VoP at lvl7.
This brings me to my next question... Do i give 16 stat to dex (thus reducing it with half-ogre modifier to 14) or Wisdom. From reading the whole guide, it's been pointed out many times that it's better to have high wisdom than dexterity, but i'm interested how would that affect AOO's. If i had 12 dex, that would give me 2 attacks of oppurtinity with Combat Reflexes. I would spend one per round for Expert Tactician (striking the stunned opponent) and be left with only one left. Later, with more attacks and presumably fighting more opponents at a time, i would be able to attack only two opponents using Expert Tactician. One stunned, the other tripped.
At least if i understand the whole concept correctly, that is. No matter, though, having 16 wisdom would suit him more, so that'll be
(sorry for the babble)
I'll drop Spring attack, we have samurai for dash&slash attacks, i'll be more of a rock with lashing, stunning fists
If you don't have the CHA to pull off some of the more powerful Exalted feats, just punch them more often.
My VoP picks are in the 1st post of the thread. Regarding the rest of the feat choices, I don't recommend the Pinning Shield or Sun School that much - there are usually more generally applicable feats available. Read through the 1st post in the thread and then post back after you've mulled it over a little.
Its not that those routes are necessarily bad, but I think that there are better feats available.
On the Initiate PrC, I really don't think its all that hot unless you REALLY wanted Exalted feats over and above the VoP options. Its performance is subpar compared to even a base monk, though there are choices in OA and 3rd party stuff that really blow it away.
Yeah, I think you may be right. It has a great flavour but I think you miss out over all. The only major advantage it has is that if you take it at the right level (without the books in front of me I think it is level eight) it speeds up your saves and BAB increase.
I'm now thinking in terms of (6) Improved Trip, (9) Improved Natural Attack, (12) Power Attack, (15) Improved Critical, (18) ?????
Bearing in mind that I will be picking up the usual VoP feats as I go as well how do you think this looks?
(By the way, great thread, very complete and well presented. Thanks.)
Monk melee's, focus's on number of attacks and big fist damage. Someone said something about defensive throw and grappling block (the disarm one?) I have a level 1 feat, and a trade in feat from level 2 monk. So far im a level 10 monk. and below is my feat layout.
level 1 - Ability focus (stunning fist)
Human - two weapon fighting
Flaw - dodge
Flaw - mobility
Level 2 - nothing
Level 3 - intuitive attack
Level 6 - improved natural attack (foot), (trade in), spring attack
Level 9 - Improved two weapon fighting
now ... in our campain everything has a high fortitude save ( clerics and fighters are a lot of what we fight) so stunning fist rarely, if ever, works. You might say that since i dont have stunning fist spring attack isnt that helpful and thats very true. More or less... any suggestion on my feat layout. Im thinking about trading in stunning fist completly and maybe taking another path (unearthed arcana), or just trading them all in from Oriental adventures
Thanks a ton in advance ( i can revamp everything... and i cant take cleave just so you know)
US is a Stun variant that makes your opponent flatfooted. It doesn't use a Stun attempt though.
ET allows you an extra attack against flat-footed opponents.
...
Elrana - you'll do fine with what you have. I wouldn't sweat it.
our dm either doesnt understand or doesnt like attacks of opp.. so combat reflex's doesnt matter
I tried unbalancing strike and my dm hated that to....
if you havent noticed he hates my monk
p.s. great guide i used it in making my monk and he kicks butt. Even without a few feats here and there.
is improved trip/ disarm any good for a monk?
Prereq: BA: +3
Summed up: Whenever an opponent is denied his Dexterity to AC, you gain a partial action that can only be used against the opponent currently denied his AC. This partial action does not have to be an attack. Only one additional action per round regardless of Combat Reflexes or number of opponents who are denied Dex bonuses.
i was thinking about stuff and i came up with a feat lineup
Feats Weight
Level 1
1 (human) – Two Weapon fighting
2 (first level) – Combat expertise
3 (flaw, ranged attacks) – Deflect arrows
4 (flaw, -2 charisma) – Combat reflexes
5 (give up stunning fist) – Dodge
Level 2
1 (give up deflect arrows) – Improved disarm
Level 3
1(3rd level) – Intuitive attack
Level 6
1(6th level) –Improved natural attack
2(give up improved trip) – Defensive strike
Level 9
1(level) – Improved Two weapon fighting
yes i know stunning fist goes away but we are almost always agaisnt humans so there saves are actually decent. But with that i get grappling block (very fun) and defensive strike(does this bonus add to the grappling block bonus?)
I remember reading about those flaws somewhere, but i forgot where. Where're they listed?
Also, i read about Improved Trip today and it aint all that great at all. If you succeed, sure the benefits are very sound, but the chance of failure is a bit high. d20 is a large die and even if you have like +3/4 higher strenght, there's a still big chance you're not going to trip the opponent. Even worse, if he wins another check, you get tripped!
Stunning Fist (or Unbalancing Strike) + Expert Tactician + Combat Reflexes do the same thing, but it's a much surer way of doing it.
So, is Improved Trip just for fun once you reach lvl3 and have all 3 feats above?
Pros:
Can be attempted as part of a flurry.
Initiate with touch attack.
+4 to opposed roll.
+4 to free attack against prone target and further attacks.
Opponent needs move action to stand up.
Can be used to dismount mounted enemies.
Cons:
Requires opposed roll.
Failure results in wasted attack.
Opponent can attempt to trip back following a failed attempt.
The impact of trip attacks are also of greater benefit to you as you gain more levels. At low level you are flanked, you trip an opponent, both opponents get one attack. Not a great deal of difference. At high level you are flanked, you trip both opponents, you take attacks against both opponents, both opponents stand up and still only make one attack against you.
The alternative (Improved Disarm) also has some great possibilities. I have designed a centaur monk who has taken Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike. This is on the grounds that he has a very high Con. and Dex. and therefore can survive the potential damage inflicted by his enemies' attacks when outnumbered, and has a high enough Dex. to take full advantage of their attacks that hit him via Karmic Strike. The logic behind the Improved Disarm is that he can then also take AoOs against his enemies once they are forced to attack unarmed because he has disarmed them. I don't know if anyone else has considered this route or sees any objections that I am missing, but for a high Dex. and Con. character it makes a lot of sense to me.
I'm also a big fan of Improved Sunder, but I'm a bigger fan of loot the dead and sell their weapons! :D
As for sunder, I haven't seen enough encounters where the majority of the grunts had magical weapons mainly due to balance of character wealth. So sundering them was never an issue, but we always watched for the one or two guys that had special equipment and made sure we didn't break that.
I do hope they reprint Expert Tactican soon, my DM is giving me problems with and when it can be done.
Considering that you're taking Intuitive Strike I think you should be taking Imp Disarm (as shown). Imp Trip relies on a STR and size advantage, and if you're taking Intuitive Strike it sounds like you won't have such an advantage.
I took a look at Knock-Down. Everytime you deal 10+ points of damage, you get a trip attempt as a free action. The downfall is that you can still be tripped if you lose your attempt as well as the second roll. Also, it requires a feat, so it wouldnt be worthwhile for a normal feat distribution monk.
Mine on the other hand, gets 18 feats to choose over 20 levels. Still, improved trip might be better.
Now, i know Jotunbrud gives you a +4 size bonus when attempting a trip (only the opposed roll?), but what other feats are there to help tripping? There's been some mention of getting up to +16 to trip attempts in the thread, but the search function isnt working as far as i can tell, so it'd be faster if someone directed me/explained briefly how-to
(i figure i should be able to spend a feat or two on tripping with the number of them i get)
At this point i must mention i'm a human monk now. DM, me and a few players agreed that half-ogre is really overpowered for ECL+1, so i ditched it in favour of a human monk. It'll be hard time getting Enlarged with VoP, but i figure feats'll make up for it.
And the last question... Meditation of War mastery seems rather attractive. +2 to DC of pressure point attacks. Prerequisite is Iron Fists feat, but it might be worth it anyway. The turning point is whether Unbalancing Strike is also affected by it.
Freezing the Lifeblood&Falling Star Strike (both of which i intend to have) are prety much obviously affected.
Unbalancing Strike on the other hand could be arguable. It might be leg pressure point attack, or simple strike at the knee at the right time. I favour leg pressure theory since it lasts for a whole round, what do you folks think?
Also.. where did i say stuff about trip?
your right about the trip thing, it is str based, my str is 16 (base) but its not somethinig i focus on. And i guess since my wis is really high (18 base). Man these stupid feats are so annoying haha.
Any suggestions on feats and ill tell u why i shouldnt have them or if they are a good idea.
unearthed arcana
mini's book
complete warrior
exalted deeds (NO VOP !!! lol)
oriental adventures
faruen book(spelling)
savage species
and i think thats it haha (we are working with flaws)
thanks a ton in advance(ps, i can get up to 6 attacks a round with haste)
Centaur Half-Dragon Monk 5
Str.: 28
Dex.: 24
Con.: 18
Int.: 18
Wis.: 22
Cha.: 13
BAB: 7/2
Dodge
Multiattack
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Karmic Strike
Monk's Belt
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3
The problem I am having is in figuring exactly how he attacks normally and with flurry, and the damage he exacts with each strike. I have got it down as:
Full Attack: +18 Fist/+13 Fist/+16 Bite/+16 Hoof/+16 Hoof 2d8+12/2d8+12/2d8+12/d8+12/2d8+12/2d8+12
Flurry: +18/+18/+13/+8 2d8+12/2d8+12/2d8+12/2d8+12
Now where I am confused is that with the 3.5 system allowing TWF and Flurry to stack does that mean that he should be getting his natural weapons on top of his flurry as well? I.e. does Multiattack work the same way as TWF?
The further question is as a Monk may use any part of his body for his unarmed Strike does that mean that he should be able to include his claw attacks into the Full Attack and stick to elbows, rear hooves, knees and head for his Unarmed Strike thus allowing a Full Attack of:
+18 Unarmed Strike/+13 Unarmed Strike/+16 Bite/+16 Claw/+16 Claw/+16 Hoof/+16 Hoof
and a Flurry of:
+18 US/+18 US/+13 US/+8 US/+16 Bite/+16 Claw/+16 Claw/+16 Hoof/+16 Hoof
Other Magic Items: Ring of Featherfall, Bracers of Armour +4, Gloves of Dex. +4 (Included in Stat.), Ring of Protection +4, Horseshoes of a Zephyr, Incandescent Blue Ioun Stone (+2 Wis.) (Included in Stat.)
If any of my figures are wrong or I have miscalculated the number of attacks or anything else please feel free to correct/criticise/abuse me, that is why I've asked the question! Also any advice regarding magic items, feat choice and so on, feel free to add your 2cp.
All I would say is that the Karmic Strike is part of the character concept, however, sufficiently persuasive argument could convince me otherwise I suppose!
Cheers!
(P.S. We use mostly core books, the 3 and 3.5 splats excluding OA and any setting based stuff. He is not exalted so exalted feats are out as well.)
i get 6 attacks at
15,15,15,15,10,10
base,two weapon fighting,flurry,haste(i have boots of speed), Second attack, and improved two weapon fighting.
Now each does 3D6 + 4.. so a full round of attacks equals death(assuming a decent number hit) (this is why i like stunning fist)
Now level 11... greater flurry of blows and (with a monks belt which i have) 3D8 damage, per hit thats 7 attacks woot :D
Oh, I noticed that I have forgotten to add the +3 to the amulet, I'll edit that in.
Natural weapon attacks cannot be part of a Flurry, and they will never do Monk damage. See the FAQ for details.
All Natural weapons executed with an iterative attack are considered Secondary and therefore get only 1/2 STR to damage.
Based on your information, you need to drop your last unarmed strike of +8 (you dont have the BAB to have 3 iterative attacks in a sequence), add in 2 Claw attacks from HalfDragon, and alter your Natural Weapon damage to their original die-type values.
Unarmed +18/+18/+13 (2d8+12), Hoof +16/+16 (d6+7), Bite +16 (d8+7), Claw +16/+16 (d6+7).
Right, I was giving him the flurry of a tenth level monk (Monk's Belt), +4 BAB for the centaur levels, thus BAB 11. I just reread Monk's Belt and can see that is wrong.
If natural weapons can't be part of a flurry, and can't deal US damage, then why can a monk take Improved Natural Attack to increase his US damage?
(P.S. We always play a house rule that adds full strength to all attacks. It doesn't make much difference in game when applied to everyone and speeds combat up just a bit. Been doing it for so long I must have forgotten it was a house rule!)
If natural weapons can't be part of a flurry, and can't deal US damage, then why can a monk take Improved Natural Attack to increase his US damage?
MUST ... NOT... TAKE... BAIT.
ARG.
Theres a relevant sentence in the Monk's "Unarmed Strike" class ability regarding US counting as a NA in certain situations.
it might be in here but i didnt read it well enough
Which is the most sense I've seen D&D make in a long time.
I don't see anything contradicting that in the S&F errata. I'm not saying that this is the current "true" ruling. This is just FYI.
According to Sword and fist (page 63), "A Fighter of Monk whose kind has natural attacks, such as claws, slams, or a bite use natural attacks just like weapons. This means, among other things, that the character effectively has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat."
Which is the most sense I've seen D&D make in a long time.
I don't see anything contradicting that in the S&F errata. I'm not saying that this is the current "true" ruling. This is just FYI.
Well this implies that a Monk's US damage does apply to his natural attacks, in contradiction to ML's post.
MUST ... NOT... TAKE... BAIT.
ARG.
Theres a relevant sentence in the Monk's "Unarmed Strike" class ability regarding US counting as a NA in certain situations.
Yeah, I'm aware that the monk can actually have his cake and eat it, hence the confusion over the US damage and his natural attacks.
Do you think a warforged can use a two handed weapon with a battlefist without problem?
Hmmm, what happens, if a warforged takes 2 battlefists... ^^
Well this implies that a Monk's US damage does apply to his natural attacks, in contradiction to ML's post.
Actually, it does the opposite. It says that he can attack with those natural weapons the same way he does with normal weapons, that is, by using the damage, crit range, etc. inherent to the natural weapons. Unless you think that a monk gets to use his unarmed damage when attacking with a quarterstaff...
Actually, it does the opposite. It says that he can attack with those natural weapons the same way he does with normal weapons, that is, by using the damage, crit range, etc. inherent to the natural weapons. Unless you think that a monk gets to use his unarmed damage when attacking with a quarterstaff...
Oh yes, that was what I was thinking. After all, natural weapons which one can use unarmed and a weapon with which one may arm oneself must both be considered unarmed. Right?
Right up until the final sentence it appears to mean that they do their standard damage, but as it then finishes by associating these natural weapons with Improved Unarmed Strike it throws the cat back amongst the pigeons.
So the question still stands with no final answer thus far.
The most restrictive manner that I can interpret the feat and still follow the RAW is that a monk requires a non-unarmed strike to qualify, but can then apply the feat to his unarmed attacks.
The most obvious interpretation is that "a monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons", and INA is an effect for which the monk's unarmed strike is considered a natural attack.
The main discussion on this is whether or not a "feat" is an "effect". It remains unclear though I have my own opinion on it.
...
Warforged Monk
Monk2/PsychicWarrior2/Fighter1/ShouDisciple5/ShintaoMonk4/WarMind6
1 Monk Mnk1 Imp Unarmed, Stunning Fist, ?
2 Monk Mnk2 Combat Reflexes
3 PsychicWarrior Mnk2/PsW1 ?, ?
4 PsychicWarrior Mnk2/PsW2 ?
5 Fighter Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1 ?
6 ShouDisciple Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD1 ?
7 ShouDisciple Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD2 ?
8 ShouDisciple Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD3 -
9 ShouDisciple Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD4 ?, ?
10 ShouDisciple Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5 -
11 ShintaoMonk Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM1 ?
12 ShintaoMonk Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM2 ?
13 ShintaoMonk Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM3 ?
14 ShintaoMonk Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM4 -
15 WarMind Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM4/WrM1 ?
16 WarMind Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM4/WrM2 -
17 WarMind Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM4/WrM3 -
18 WarMind Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM4/WrM4 ?
19 WarMind Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM4/WrM5 -
20 WarMind Mnk2/PsW2/Fgt1/ShD5/ShM4/WrM6 -
You could replace the ShintaoMonk4 with 4 levels of a PrC that offers Flurry capabilities. There aren't many, though.
Where is ectoplasmic fist? I've looked up the minds eye, XPsihb and all other stuff I suspected to contain new powers...
The main discussion on this is whether or not a "feat" is an "effect". It remains unclear though I have my own opinion on it.
I think it is fairly clear (gramatically and logically, at least) that while a feat is not and "effect," it generally produces an "effect."
For example, the improvement of a monk's unarmed strike damage is the effect of INA applied to IUS.
And, on a totally unrelated note: Multiweapon fighting "replaces the two-weapon fighting feat for creatures with more then two arms."
Unarmed strike can be used with two-weapon fighting.
Two-weapon fighting can be used with flurry.
So, can a Sharn Monk 11 (BAB 12/7/2, ECL 20 for all it matters) make a full attack at (all unarmed strikes) +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+0, as well as three bite attacks at +7/+7/+7 (not including strength or other bonuses to attack)?
Is their standard attack just one unarmed strike, bite, or claw?
Can they all go through one Hex portal?
Am I just being assinine?
I think it is fairly clear (gramatically and logically, at least) that while a feat is not and "effect," it generally produces an "effect."
For example, the improvement of a monk's unarmed strike damage is the effect of INA applied to IUS.
And, on a totally unrelated note: Multiweapon fighting "replaces the two-weapon fighting feat for creatures with more then two arms."
Unarmed strike can be used with two-weapon fighting.
Two-weapon fighting can be used with flurry.
So, can a Sharn Monk 11 (BAB 12/7/2, ECL 20 for all it matters) make a full attack at (all unarmed strikes) +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+0, as well as three bite attacks at +7/+7/+7 (not including strength or other bonuses to attack)?
Is their standard attack just one unarmed strike, bite, or claw?
Can they all go through one Hex portal?
Am I just being assinine?
So if INA can be applied to US then that is all good, a centaur monk's unarmed strikes have the INA benefit, but any attacks made specifically with his natural weapons do not unless seperately taken and applied.
But there is a difference between the application of Multiattack rather than Multiweapon Fighting. Personally I think that they should stack, even with flurry, the problem is that it all just looks so wrong if they can! The Centaur Half-Dragon Monk in question has an ECL of 14 and atacks like this:
Unarmed +18/+18/+13 (2d8+12), Hoof +16/+16 (d6+7), Bite +16 (d8+7), Claw +16/+16 (d6+7).
With INA (US) his primary damage then goes up to 3d8 +12.
It just looks wrong!
...
...The Centaur Half-Dragon Monk in question has an ECL of 14 and atacks like this:
Unarmed +18/+18/+13 (2d8+12), Hoof +16/+16 (d6+7), Bite +16 (d8+7), Claw +16/+16 (d6+7).
With INA (US) his primary damage then goes up to 3d8 +12.
It just looks wrong!
OK, now imagine a Goliath or HalfGiant Monk with at least 3 levels of Shou Disciple using a Huge Gauntlet (which causes damage equal to an unarmed strike), with EWP (Heavy Gauntlet), Imp Nat Atk, and Monkey Grip (MG actually is unnecessary if you are ShouDisciple 5).
Thats a Flurry with +4 size levels. A HalfGiant Fighter3/Barbarian2/ShouDisciple3 under this scenario does 6d8 with his strikes.
Any thoughts about my choice of feats and/or magic items?
I got a few questions.
1) Did you post ever post the VoP Monk16/Kensai4 build? It sounded good and I was wondering what was your take one the progression.
2) Where is it that I could find the Death blow feat?
3) Which monk build w/ feat progression combination do you guys consider the best for any given situation?
Here's the basic architecture for a Warforged Monk. I tossed in PsychicWarrior so that he could take advantage of the Battlefist AND the Ectoplasmic Fist.
The thing is, it says only Quori or Kalshatar can use an Ectoplasmic Fist, and only Warforged can use a Battlefist(or is it gauntlet?).
The thing is, it says only Quori or Kalshatar can use an Ectoplasmic Fist, and only Warforged can use a Battlefist(or is it gauntlet?).
Use psionic device 1 rank and a +4 skill item is enough if you keep trying until you get a 20.
level 6
stats I rolled are 12, 18, 12, 14, 15, 12
starting money = 13,000 GP
I've played a few monks in the past with little success due to bad rolls of the die, but I'm set on trying to make this one work out even though its a bit odd. Fortunately I will not be the main tank (we will have a Human Paladin, an Elvaan Rogue for our skill-monkey, and the other is undecided still but will most likely play a spellcaster) I'm thinking about arranging the stats as follows (after racial modifiers and +1 for 4th level)
Str 10 (-2 racial)
Dex 17 (+2 racial)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 19 (+1 at 4th)
Cha 12
and possibly taking Weapon Finesse so I have a chance at hitting something as well as Improved Natural Attack so my attack damage is not horrible. This game will take place under 3.5 rules and the DM said he will allow for me to opt out the monk's bonus feats for feats in PHB or OA as long as I meet all prereqs. Outside of the core 3 and OA books nothing else is allowed and I am wondering if I should start my build off by taking a level or two as Fighter so I can "catch-up" in feats (although I know that nerfs my skill ranks as well as my monk abilities). I would be greatly honored for you all to pick and prod at this, thanks
Use psionic device 1 rank and a +4 skill item is enough if you keep trying until you get a 20.
And then you roll a natural 1...
I call him the little brother of the king of smack ;)
Race: goliath
Abilities (32pt): STR 16 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 12 WIS15 CHA 12
Ability scores are after racial mods
mnk: monk
idm: initiate of the draconic myteries
foz: fist of zuoken
01 mnk improved natural attack, stunning fist*, improved unarmed strike*
02 mnk power attack*
03 mnk alertness
04 mnk CHA+1
05 mnk
06 idm ki shout
07 idm
08 idm WIS+1
09 idm fists of iron
10 idm
11 idm
12 idm WIS+1 wild talent
13 idm
14 foz
15 foz improved sunder,
16 foz DEX+1,
17 foz
18 foz eagle claw attack (empty hand mastery), up the walls*,
19 foz
20 foz WIS+1,
Powers:
1st level
~expansion
~bite of the wolf
2nd level
~psionic lion's charge
~strength of my enemy
3rd level
~vampiric blade
~empathic transfer, hostile
4th level
~freedom of movement, psionic
Notes: Unarmed strikes are considered both natural and manufactured weapons for all purposes, so you can use vampiric blade
on them.
unarmed damage
1d8 large size
2d6 improved natural attack
2d8 4th monk level
2d10 8th monk level
4d8 12th monk level
6d8 monk's belt
8d8 monk's tattoo
12d8 empty hand mastery
16d8 fanged ring
24d8 expansion I
32d8 expansion II
32d10 IDM 1
32d12 IDM 2
My calculations become a bit unclear to me after 2d10 and after 24d8. I hope i did the increases correctly in the other steps. If i am correct this dude could do 208 damage on average per hit and heal half of it (104) back. I'd love to squeeze karmic strike in the build but i am horribly short of feats
There's no explicit order in which to calculate size and die type increases, but I would imagine that they're calculated last regardless of the order of acquisition. Part of the problem is the Monk's unarmed damage progresses in an odd manner, with die type increases rather than size increases excepting the change from d10 to 2d6, which is another nonstandard increase.
None of this is ever really spelled out anywhere though.
Based on my assumptions the value is...
20th level Monk = 2d10
+ Powerful Build = 4d8
+ Improved Natural Attack = 6d8
+ Empty Hand Mastery = 8d8
+ Fanged Ring = 12d8
+ Expansion II = 24d8
+ Initiate II = 24d12
As catharz helpfully points out, with an Embedded Shard from Eberron you can squeeze in one more size increase with the Ectoplasmic Fist, giving 32d12 as your final amount.
I don't think its can actually go higher in a pre-epic game.
Conceivably, a Warforged Divine Crusader (Hero domain) with lots of Practiced Spellcaster and Shintao Monk (just to qualify for Empty Hand Mastery), you'd start as Medium, but the Battlefist and Ectoplasmic Fist with Giantsize net you two sizes over the Goliath build, for 48d8 at probably 23rd level or so.
Ehm, noob question: where can I find the Empty Hand Mastery feat? Does it apply to natural weapons too (I have a Feral character...)?
20th level Monk = 2d10
+ Powerful Build = 4d8
+ Improved Natural Attack = 6d8
+ Empty Hand Mastery = 8d8
+ Fanged Ring = 12d8
+ Expansion II = 24d8
+ Initiate II = 24d12
+ Thornskin spell [OA] = 24d20 :D
18 foz eagle claw attack (empty hand mastery)
It may be because of the differences in 3.0 and 3.5 (i dont know which my book is) but eagle claw attack requires dex of 15+ in my OA.
If it's specified dex13+ somewhere else and superceeds my OA info, i'd be really, really happy about it since i'll be going for empty hand mastery myself and would need to put a point in dex to get it.
Also, at 18th level you gain Eagle claw attack, but do you automaticaly gain Empty hand mastery at the same level with all the prerequisites fulfilled? AFAIK it's a feat to be taken normaly. Again, i hope i'm wrong
combat masteries are abilities you get when you have the prereqs, they're not feats. see them as some sort of insight to your combat techniques.
So instead of taking Power Attack - Sunder - Eagle Claw attack - Fists of Iron - Ki shout = Empty hand mastery it must now include an extra feat of Improve Sunder?
It does make sundering objects much more powerful, though and my VoP monk'll love it ;)
It's quite taxing i must say. Power attack isnt all that useful because of lower BAB and it still takes 6 feats to achieve it. It's a cool way though, being able to shatter weapons&armor and scream so much it makes your enemies wet their pants :D
str 14
dex 14
con 12
int 12
wis 16
cha 13
lvl1: VoP, Stunning Fist, Power Attack, Unbalancing Strike
lvl2: Combat Reflexes, Ki shout
lvl3: Expert tactician
lvl4: Fists of Iron
lvl5: /
lvl6: Improved natural attack, Improved Sunder, Eagle claw attack (IF) -> Empty Hand Mastery
lvl7: /
lvl8: Freezing the Lifeblood
lvl9: Falling Star Strike -> Meditation of War
FYI: VoP exalted feats can be freely exchanged with standard feats (in our game), that's why i have so much of them.
This is based on the fact IF the DM allows lvl6 monk bonus feat be exchanged with Improved Sunder/Eagle Claw attack. If this would be approved then i'd have a fully fledged monk with formidable unarmed damage + extremely good pressure attacks by 10nth level. Also all stat increases + VoP main stat increase go to wisdom (RP-wise) so it'll be truly formidable.
Comments, criticism, opinions?
Soft/Internal-style monk
Human Feat rogue [UA] 2/Invisible eye [UA] 2/Pugilist [Drg 310] 2
1:Rog 1 |---------------|+0|0/2/0|Dodge, Combat expertise, Karmic strike.
2:Rog 2 |---------------|+1|0/3/0|Improved trip
3:Rog 2/Mnk 1 |---------|+1|2/5/2|Combat reflexes, IUS, Unbalancing blow.
4:Rog 2/Mnk 2 |---------|+2|3/6/3|Lightning reflexes.
5:Rog 2/Mnk 2/Ftr 1 |---|+3|5/6/3|Prone attack, Endurance.
6:Rog 2/Mnk 2/Ftr 2 |---|+4|6/6/3|Close quarters fighting, Great throw.
Feats (10): Great throw [OA/WotC] (Combat reflexes*, Dodge*, Improved trip*, Improved unarmed strike-M), Karmic strike [CW] (Combat expertise*, Dodge*), Prone attack* [CW] (Lightning reflexes-M), Unbalancing blow [Drg 295].
While this build is designed around being defensive rather then dealing massive damage, it combines very well mechanically with anything that boosts IUS damage. Stat dependancy is basically Dex (min 13) > Con > Str > Int (min 13)> Wis (min 13)> Cha. Grab UMD (and UPD if your DM is being ****) with the Rogue levels. That (if you're lucky) will let you boost up your unarmed damage with a belt.
Oh, and OT: Mean, I found a place near my local university that teaches T'ai-Chi Ch'aun. They also teach Pa-Kua Chang (Ba Gua) and Praying Mantis! I hope to be very bruised in a rather circular way very soon :D
[Edit] More build info: Using Psychic warrior over feat rogue is sound, especially when using Enlarge. The UPD lets you mimic Kalishar, the UMD Warforged. Using Human paragon for the feat and Adaptive learning (UMD) isn't a bad choice, drop/delay Close quarters fighting to fit it in. As usual, Half-minotaur is gravy despite the Dex hit.
Mean: I hope you don't mind I'm posting a build of mine here. If you like, I'll definately move it. [/Edit]
catharz -- here is as good as anyplace. I certainly don't mind - posts by others means I don't have to post as much myself.
- thanks
It could be useful in my case since after 10th level i have feats to spare, but swearing VoP makes it impossible to get it from a magical item.
theres something im probably missing... but how are u flurrying with a greatsword? I must admit though... that would look so insanley cool haha :D
Shou Disciple 5 gives flurry with any martial weapon... and yes... it rocks... although... technically... your fists would do as much damage by this point with the right feats. Much better to be flurrying with a guisarme at 10'.
Since i didnt get much reply on this over at the rules boards (as so often with more special questions) i will ask it here again.
Assuming you make a monk's belt that uses the head slot (headband for instance), which would be a perfectly reasonable slot for such an item. Would the item's effect stack with a monk's belt ?
In the item description it only says "the character is treated as 5 levels higher[...]", there's no bonus type given. And since a monk's tattoo (MoF) is assumed to stack with a monk's belt i can't see a reason why it shouldn't stack with a belt.
I admit this would open a kind of cheesy can of worms for certain monk builds but per the rule it should work i think.
This also points me to the odd pricing of a monk's tattoo. 80,000 gp ?! If i make a slotless monk's belt (which doubles the price) it would cost me 26,000 gp...
Shou Disciple 5 gives flurry with any martial weapon... and yes... it rocks... although... technically... your fists would do as much damage by this point with the right feats. Much better to be flurrying with a guisarme at 10'.
Yeah, but that wouldn't look cool
Oh wait, wrong board Assuming you make a monk's belt that uses the head slot (headband for instance), which would be a perfectly reasonable slot for such an item. Would the item's effect stack with a monk's belt?
First of all, I don't think any sane DM will let you do this. It's just awkard. Second, when looking at the wording of the item...
Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day.
Let's say we have a lvl 12 monk, with the belt he has stuff like a 17th level monk (5 lvls higher). Now he donnes a second belt (as a banadana or whatever), this makes his AC and unarmed damage stuff five levels higher that his monk level (12). Again 17.
Assuming you make a monk's belt that uses the head slot (headband for instance), which would be a perfectly reasonable slot for such an item. Would the item's effect stack with a monk's belt ?
You can already get massive monk's belt stacking. Look in complete divine for the Bhamut relic. Monk/Templar synergies well, since you need true faith for both.
*ponders* Wow. Now I'm look at bloodlines, draconic mysteries, initiate of pistis sophia, fist of zuoken ...
Majot Bloodline and all, you could probably get something like the damage of a 45th level monk.
This also points me to the odd pricing of a monk's tattoo. 80,000 gp ?! If i make a slotless monk's belt (which doubles the price) it would cost me 26,000 gp...
Monk's Tatoo gives speed as well as damage and AC.
In addition, looking at the epic monk, damage dosen't increase after "level 16" according to the SRD. Which I interpret to mean 'damage dosen't increase after level 20.'
Here is my build that I thought for a game we might start to play. What do you think? Is it legal and what are your opinions about it?
I took ideas from the Mean_Liar Combat Monk, but changed the Henshin mystic to Shou, as I want 16 bab at 20th. Second build that affected this was (IIRC) Catharz munchkin damage build with the warforged thingys in each limb
. Anyways, I took the 'Damned if you do, Damned if you don't' -idea from that. Ie, if the opponent misses -> trip attempt. If the opponent hits -> trip or double punch.Human(Shou), Lawful Good
Sidestep is the route I would take, the idea being that if you access a Training Dummy of the Masters (or is it Wooden Dummy of the Masters?) from Arms and Equipment Guide, your 5' step is now a 10' step. And THEN you're really in control of a fight.
Get hit, hit back twice, move back 10', opponent has nothing left to do (excepting Chain/Spiked Chain starting at 5').
Dragon #318 details how Flurry stacks in v3.5 with OA PrCs.
Looks good.
Your damage at 12th-15th should be 3d6. 2d6 -> 3d6.
Sidestep is the route I would take, the idea being that if you access a Training Dummy of the Masters (or is it Wooden Dummy of the Masters?) from Arms and Equipment Guide, your 5' step is now a 10' step. And THEN you're really in control of a fight.
Get hit, hit back twice, move back 10', opponent has nothing left to do (excepting Chain/Spiked Chain starting at 5').
Dragon #318 details how Flurry stacks in v3.5 with OA PrCs.
Looks good.
Wow, fast answer. Thanks alot
.I based my damage calculation to the Improved natural attack -feat description. 'd10' -line goes like d10, 2d8, ...., while the 'd6' line goes like ...2d6, 2d8 ....
Now, when monk has d10 unarmed damage, the next step is taken from the 'd10' line. When the monk has 2d6 unarmed damage, the next step is taken from the 'd6' line. Thats how both seem to raise up to 2d8. You probably count it differently. 3d6 would seem like the right one. I took the description from Monster Manual III. Of course, it could be that I was mistaken, as I made this build yesterday somewhere around 0100 am - 0230 am
.(EDIT: Scrap that. I found the table for large monks in SRD... can't go wrong with that. It is 3d6.)
Have to admit that the sidestep thing seems really good with that training dummy. I did not count (I never count) upon any magic items when I did the build. But sidestep is still a very good idea and excellent with that dummy.
However, you can do about the same with Knockdown, assuming that one of the trip attempts work. If the opponent is knocked down and you move 5', he can either stand up as a move action (if the hit was his first), or just lay there until next turn
. You can stay next to him, of course, but then he can attack you from prone, although usually with penalties. Next turn, if he tries to stand up, you get another AoO...Sidestep with Dummy is more reliable, though. Best would be to have both
.Hmm, have to get that dragon from somewhere unless the DM accepts my word.
Thanks alot, good to know that I did not make any grievious errors.
High HPs is nice, but having an opponent that can't attack you is even better.
Hmm, have to check the crawl thing. That could change some things.
How do you find out the final damage for your Draconic monk?
The initiate Prc does not continue to raise the monk base unarmed damage, right?
So the max initial damage is from the Shou disciple, which is 2d6. After this, you get a raise to 3d6 with Improved natural attack. Then raise the damage dice twice from initiate to 3d10. Isn't that the maximum?
How did you get 6d12 at lvl 20?
On the other hand, if the initiate dice raises are applied first, it goes 2d6->2d8->2d10-> (feat) 4d8 instead.
Additionally, the initiate gets the x3 criticals at level 9, right? You only have 8 levels in your build, but still talk about them.
I'm thinking of building a half-ogre (large) monk with Initiate levels, so that I get the maximum damage out of him, and I would like to find out, how the monk unarmed damage goes with the feat and the two dice raises from the Initiate.
Thank you.
I think my listing of the x3 crit multiplier is an error.
Sadly, I can't base my builds around magic items, as our DM's are quite eccentric with giving out those. I might have the necessary amount of stuff at a specific level, but I have no possibility of knowing that I happen to have one or two specific items.
Of course, for general Optimization, magic items are very good way to get nice combos
.They add half there damage dice again to damage as cold damage.
So the following...
Air Gensai Orglash
Monk 8 / Fist of Zirkon 8 / Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 4
Can be polymorphed into a Mountain Troll (huge), use expansion (collossal), monks belt, monk's tattoos =
2d10 -> 4d8 (Belt) -> 8d6 (Tattoos) -> 8d8 (Large) -> 16d6 (Huge) -> 16d8 (Gartgantuan) -> 32d6 (Collossal) -> 32d8 (Improved Natural attack) -> 32d10 (Initiate of Draconic Mysteries) -> 32d10+16d10 (Cold damage)
I'm sure you can get better than that, but it's a start.
Lord Kiwi,
Dragon #318 details how Flurry stacks in v3.5 with OA PrCs.
#318 is the only Dragon that's missing for me, at the moment, but I believe in the same place it talks about OA PrCs it details 3.5 mods to some of the PrCs. The Shintao monk feat progression got nerfed from 1@1st then every 2 levels after, to (I think [EDIT: fixed and confirmed]) 1@1st then every 3 levels thereafter (EDIT: 4th,7th,10th). The point is that the feat progression of the Shintao is slower than it used to be, and slower than what Dthamilaye used in their build. [EDIT: one less feat for Dthamilaye's build @ Shintao 7th, might need to check prereqs for 2nd part of build]
Could someone with a 318 Dragon check this out?
PS - where is Shou Disciple?
I'm basically looking for suggestions on what to Gestalt with a monk, as that hasn't been mentioned so far..
Our campaign doesn't have access to OA material. Basically we can use core material (PHB, DMG, MM I), plus:
Arms and Equipment Guide, Book of Exalted Deeds, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Defenders of the Faith, Deities and Demigods, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Fiend Folio, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Frostburn, Libris Mortis, Manual of the Planes, Masters of the Wild, Minatures Handbook, Monstrous Manual II, Monstrous Manual III, Planar Handbook, Savage Species, Song and Silence, Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood and Unearthed Arcana.
I've seen people point out VoP is a good option through about 18th level, but beyond that it falls in power relative to item using builds. In previous adventures, items have been stolen/destroyed by NPC's. Assuming we do not reach 20th (and beyond), VoP is a good option; no items to have stolen/sundered. I'm envisioning a LG, utterly good character, who helps anyone in need to the best of her ability.. VoP with Paladin fits great. I want a mostly monk build.
We'll be starting at 1st level, so I'd prefer a build which is strong from 1st through epic, as opposed to something which will initially be weak but gain power at 12th or whatever. A race with a level adjustment is not an option, our starting ECL will be 1.
We are using Gestalt characters (without experience penalties for level variance between classes). My focus is on the monk side, but I'm curious which classes would best support the character.
I'm playing around with Monk 03 / Paladin 03, to start. The DM is using minimum stats to qualify for some classes (as per second edition rules), but is ruling you automatically qualify for a starting class if you want to be a member of that class. Statistics will be 4D6 (keeping highest 3) for each stat rolled in order, but I'm guaranteed the requirements for a Paladin (STR 16, CON 16, WIS 16, CHA 16). A Paladin seems a good fit for an exalted good gestalt character, and I'm very much unlikely to qualify for the class unless its taken as one of my initial two gestalt levels. On the plus side of class requirements, at least 4 of my stats are guaranteed to be good.
Monk and paladin classes will both impose the restriction of no further advancement in either class once a level is taken where that class is not advanaced. IE, Monk 03 / Paladin 03, then Monk 04 and Fighter 01 will preclude further advancement in the Paladin half of the character. On the monk side of the build, I only want either Monk or a class which specifically says you can continue advancement in monk with this class.
I liked the idea of gaining Sorcerer or Favored Soul levels to go with my Monk, but the DM has ruled no spontaneous casters.. and all casters (aside from psionic manifesters) use a spellbook to memorize from (a spellbook would probably be considered a possession, which wouldn't work with Vow of Poverty). In this setting pretty much all the gods have left, but divine casters are still able to get their spells... from books.
Given no +LA races, I'm looking to Human for my race. My goal is to qualify for Saint (BoED, +2 LA) as soon as possible (the only requirement, aside from the sacrifice, I won't have qualified for prior to the adventure beginning will be 6th level minimum). I'll be utilizing the LA adjustment by off from Unearthed Arcana.
I can use Savage Progressions from Savage Species, for example progressing as a Gestalt Monk/Hound Archon through my first 11 levels. If I take a Savage Species monster class, as per the rules, that half of the Gestalt must continue the monster class until it is finished. A celestial type race would fit my build idea, but a class/class build as opposed to a class/race build probably works better.
I can use character flaws (UA - page 91) to gain access to up to two additional starting feats.
So far I've got:
01 Monk 01 / Paladin 01
02 Monk 02 / Paladin 02
03 Monk 03 / Paladin 03
04 Monk 04 / Psychic Warrior 01
05 Monk 05 / Psychic Warrior 02
06 Monk 06 / Psychic Warrior 03
07 Monk 07 /
08 Monk 08 /
09 Monk 09 /
10 Monk 10 /
11 Monk 11 /
12 Monk 12 /
13 Monk 13 /
14 Monk 14 /
15 Monk 15 /
16 Monk 16 /
17 Monk 17 /
18 Monk 18 /
19 Monk 19 /
20 Monk 20 /
Starting Feats: (1) Sacred Vow, (Hu) Vow of Poverty, (Exalted) Nymph's Kiss, (Flaw #1) Earth Heritage (towards meeting requirements for Monk planar substituition levels; is SR LV+15 instead of LV+10 at 13th and the ability to bypass Cold-Iron [I know Tanar'ri are a favorite of the DM] at 16th worth a Feat?), (Flaw #2) ?. (Flaws optional, but I like bonus feats).
Monk feats: (1) Stunning Fist, (2) Combat Reflexes and (6) Improved Trip.
Levels: (3) Dodge, (6) Improved Natural Attack, (9) Mobility, (12) Spring Attack, (15) ?, (18) ?.
Exalted Feats: (2) Vow of Non-Violence, (4) Vow of Peace, (6) Intuitive Attack, (8) Nimbus of Light, (10) Sanctify Ki Strike, (12) Holy Ki Strike, (14) Exalted Spell Resistance, (16) Fist of Heavens, (18) Holy Radiance, (20) Stigmata, (22) Servant of the Heavens.
Stat increases: Probably to Wisdom (Wis to AC monk, Wis to AC Saint, Wis for monk abilities DC, Wis to attack with Intuitive Strike).
I'm thinking Psychic Warrior (some powers, buffs like enlarge, feats) or possibly Psion instead (only dedicated caster type not using a book - Vow of Poverty prohibited) as other class. Fighter (feats), Paladin (D10's, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, roleplaying exalted good), possibly Rogue/Ranger (skills) are options. I would like some utility spells/powers and the ability to buff a little, and unfortunately all the caster types without possessions are not available.
Druid would have given flexibility/spellcasting/wildshape and fit well with my vision of an outdoor wandering monk assisting others until she attached herself to a group of good adventurers (but I need to keep LG for exalted stuff and paladinhood).
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
I'd definitely go to Palladin4 for the Bless Weapon spell, either way. It is particularly nasty with a weaponmaster's increased crit range that stacks with Improved Critical.
I have some palladin/psywarr/psychicweaponmaster...builds...I think either of them combined with a gestalt monk would be insane
So, would you reccomend crystal gauntlets, or would the Mineral warrior template be better?
So, would you reccomend crystal gauntlets, or would the Mineral warrior template be better?
Heh, I don't even own the XPH. The builds I have were made using 3.0 rules. And they were pretty simple and I didn't really get into equipping them with magic items. I just did class and feat progressions and never got to play any of them.
Sadly the only D&D game I was in here broke up, and I haven't even played D&D for months now, so I haven't bothered to buy many of the newer books. I'm trying to finish up a PhD, so this is probably a good thing. Less time gaming should equal more time working, right? :D
Edit: Since Ualaa said he can't use Oriental Adventures, I'll leave off the Singh Rager builds (that's a shame...), but here's the other one. Like I said, it's 3.0 and so will need converting. But it should still give you some ideas.
PsyWar7/Pal4/PsychicWeaponMaster9
Need Dex and Int 13, Wis 12, and a good Cha
1 PsyWar1 Dodge (Human), Power Att (1), Wpn Focus (bonus)
2 PsyWar2 Mobility (bonus)
3 PsyWar3 Psionic Weapon
4 PsyWar4
5 PsyWar5 Psionic Dodge (bonus)
6 PsyWar6 Wpn Spec
7 PsyWar7
8-11 Pal1-4 Pick up Imp Crit at level 9
12-20 PsyWpnM1-9; Divine Might at 12, Extend Power at 15, Persistant Power at 18
BAB 18; Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +6 (+Cha mod); Power Points 56
Benefits: 5th level PsyWar powers, 1st level Pal spells (Bless Weapon!), Divine Might, Increased Multiplier 4/day, Psionic Critical (stacks with Imp. Crit), free WW attack feat, free Combat Reflexes, Psionic Wpn Focus (+1 att, stacks), Psionic Damage (can max damage on non-crits, 9/day for free, 3 pps after that), Bonded Weapon (this rocks), Detect Evil at will, Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on hands, Aura of Courage, Divine Health.
For a weapon I'd pick Halberd. It does good damage, it's two handed, you can trip with it, and you can set it against a charge. Although.. it would be kind of strange to have one grafted to your arm... Also, since you'll probably spend most of your time polymorphed into a firbolg or some other large creature, you won't need a reach weapon to have reach. Another great choice would be a falchion, since it's two-handed and would have a threat range of 13-20.
Stats at 20: Assuming 85 point unweighted total points (what we use)
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 20
Can use stat boosting items to be able to access higher level abilities that he doesn't have the natural stats for.
Powers:
0) Float, Detect Psionics, Far Punch
1) Feel Light, See Sound, Combat Precognition
2) Animal Affinity, Expansion, Combat Prescience
3) Improved Biofeedback, Claws of the Vampire, Displacement
4) Polymorph Self, Dimension Door
5) Graft Weapon
Fully "buffed" firbolg form (average):
Str 44 (+8 from animal affinity and expansion, would be 47 with a Belt of Giant Strength +6)
Dex 13
Con 23
Att: +50 (18 base, 2 wpn focuses, 17 str, +5 wpn bonus, 2 Combat Presc., 1 Graft Wpn, 5 Divine Might)
Damage 2d8 (halberd) or 2d6 (falchion) + 38 (25str + 1 graft wpn + 2 wpn spec + 5 wpn bonus + 5 Divine Might); Can power attack for more. I would probably power attack for +10 or more most of the time. This is all with no added magic items...
Crit range 18-20/X3 for the halberd, 13-20/X2 for a falchion. All threats are automatically confirmed with Bless wpn vs. evil opponents. Can max damage on non-crits 9/day for free and increase multiplier 4/day.
With str 47, Power att +18, and Haste
Att: +33/+33/+28/+23/+18
Dmg: Damage 2d8 (halberd) or 2d6 (falchion) + 76 (+27str +36 pow att + 1 graft wpn + 2 wpn spec + 5 wpn bonus + 5 Divine Might)
Max damage 1232: with Falchion, assuming all 5 attacks hit and are crits, increasing multiplier on 4 of them.
Powers to activate daily, all last 13+ hours (cost):
Combat Precog. (1), Animal Affinity (3), Persistant Expansion (11), Persistant Combat Prescience (11), Imp. Biofeedback (5), Persistant Displacement (13), Claws of the Vampire (5), Polymorph Self: Firbolg (7), Graft Weapon (9, but it is permanent, so not a daily cost)
Total power points: 56 (out of 65)
Will need to replenish Power Points or supplement them with Crystal Capacitor, otherwise he won't be able to use all his PsiWpnM abilities because they require up to 15 pps in reserve. A mind feeder enhancement on his bonded weapon would take care of this problem, or a Torc of Psionic Might (reduces cost of powers higher than 1st level by 1) The way the powers are written, Graft Weapon should allow Claws of the Vampire to work through the grafted weapon, but that would be up to DM ruling. If he says no, pick alternate powers and add Body Feeder to your Bonded Weapon.
After that, Psion or Psychic Warrior sounds really good. Metamorphosis is a strong power in an unarmed combatant, but so is Psionic Lion's Pounce and Expansion.
I believe that VoP allows for the use of a spellbook and material components... I'd look that up to make certain.
In my opinion the strongest compliment to any melee build and especially a WIS-heavy Monk is a Cleric with the Spell domain, or specific to a Gestalt build is being able to cast Arcane spells and use Arcane Strike, in addition to your normal compliment of arcane abilities.
In any case, with a Gestalt build you have the luxury of maintaining Monk to level 20 without need for PrCs. If you're going to go Arcane (wide range of spells, Draconic Polymorph and Arcane Strike) take 1 level of Paladin (for your stats generation) and then follow with Wizard.
I have to take a look at Savage Species, but I think gestalting class with race is really broken. One thing with Gestalts is that they're ideally not supposed to stack well - Pal1/Ftr1 only gives +1 BAB. However, with a class/race, you'll be picking up base creature Hit Dice in addition to class-derived BAB, leading to a double-stacking of power. However, if you really wanted to tear it up you can take just about any Celestial as your race gestalt and by the time you're done with the race progression you should be head and shoulders over any compatriots.
Angels and other flying entities come to mind immediately.
I've seen people point out VoP is a good option through about 18th level, but beyond that it falls in power relative to item using builds. In previous adventures, items have been stolen/destroyed by NPC's. Assuming we do not reach 20th (and beyond), VoP is a good option; no items to have stolen/sundered. I'm envisioning a LG, utterly good character, who helps anyone in need to the best of her ability.. VoP with Paladin fits great. I want a mostly monk build.
There's are several good discussions on epic vow of poverty with their own build of it (since there is no official build). I think this is my favorite:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=274713
As for the build itself, I don't know for sure this would be allowed officially under the gestalt rules, but I don't think my DM would disallow it when we run our Gestalt game: Monk20 on one side, then on the other side maybe some cleric or psychic levels followed by Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (from Draconomicon) or Kensai (from Complete Warrior I believe) on the other side. Not sure how legal it is to take monk one side and a monk prestige class on the other :D.
I was hoping some of you would have some time to look over the route I'm thinking of going with a monk - this is a cross post from an earlier post I made, I hope this is ok, but I guess this is a better place for it.
I'm thinking of going monk8/initiate of pristis sophia 10/paladin 2 with VoP.
I'd particularly like any comments about high level problems that might crop up (for example I realise I can't damage anything that requires silver weapons or similar, and will presumably have problems with anything that can fly or keep out of my reach by other means).
I've looked over most of the boards and searched and been unable to see any comments about the Initiate of Pristis Sophia class, is there something inherantly wrong with it?
I've not worked out AC for this character, since I'm not sure how all the bonuses from monk/vop and the various feats all stack up - so I have no clue how good it would be.
I took 2 levels of paladin at the end, mostly for Divine Grace - there didn't seem to be any particular reason to finish off monk to level 10, and no other class seemed to give any particularly useful skills that I could see, with just 2 levels.
The books I've used are:
PHB, DMG, Book of Exalted Deeds, CW and Libris Mortis
I think I just took Extra Stunning and Weakening touch from CW, Unquenchable flame of life from LM, and most of the rest came from Exalted deeds.
character follows; hope it's readable for you, and doesn't have too many errors.
I'm not going to give character or background details since I guess they're not relevant.
Skills I'd focus on are: diplomacy, sense motive, knowledge(religion), tumbling, jump, climb, hide, move silently, spot, listen and at least concentration 9 for IOPS requirements.
The base stats were as I rolled them (4d6 drop one), I'm aware that I've not placed them as would be expected for a monk character, let me know if this is too silly. Note that I've taken intuitive attack as soon as possible to raise attack bonus.
I'm not trying for a particularly powerful character, just someone to enjoy playing that's different from what I normally go for.
Will be in a party of 5, DM is not allowing evil characters.
thanks!
starting stats
str: 10
dex: 12 (+1)
con: 10
int: 15 (+2)
wis: 17 (+3)
cha: 16 (+3)
final stats:
12 +1
18 +4
12 +1
15 +3
26 +7
22 +5
lawful good
there's a key at the bottom for the feats I gain, saying where from.
01 monk 1 (1)sacred vow, (2)vow of poverty, (3)stunning fist, (4)nymph's kiss, (5)flurry of blows, (5)unarmed strike
02 monk 2 (3)combat reflexes, (5)evasion, (4)Intuitive Attack
03 monk 3 (1)weapon focus(unarmed strike), (5)still mind
04 monk 4 +1wis, (5)ki strike (magic), (5)slow fall (20ft), (4)Nimbus of Light
05 monk 5 (5) purity of body
06 monk 6 (3)improved disarm, (1)Unquenchable Flame of Life, (5)slow fall (30ft), (4)Servant of the Heavens
07 IOPS 1 (8)+2wis, (6)Fist of the Heavens
08 monk 7 +1dex, (5)wholeness of body, (4)Holy Radiance
09 monk 8 (1)weakening touch, (5)slow fall (40ft)
10 IOPS 2 (6)detect evil, (6)smite evil 1/day, (5)ki strike (lawful), (4)Sanctify Ki Strike
11 IOPS 3 (8)+2wis/+2cha, (6)uncanny dodge
12 IOPS 4 +1dex, (1)extra stunning, (6)electrical resistance 5, (7)vow of obedience, (4)Holy Ki Strike
13 IOPS 5 (6)smite evil 2/day
14 IOPS 6 (6)improved uncanny dodge, (4)Subduing Strike
15 IOPS 7 (8)+2wis/+2cha/+2dex, (1)blind fight, (6)electrical resistance 10, (7)vow of non-viloence
16 IOPS 8 +1str, (6)smite evil 3/day, (5)Ki strike (adamantine), (4)holy subdual
17 IOPS 9 (6)improved evasion
18 IOPS 10 (1)improved initiative, (6) celestial transformation, (7)vow of peace, (4)Gift of Faith
19 paladin 1 (8)+2wis/+2cha/+2dex/+2con
20 paladin 2 +1str, divine grace, (4)gift of grace
BAB: +15, +1 for weapon focus, +7 from wis,
base damage 2d8 +1, +2d6 against evil
hits are aligned: magic, lawful, adamantine, holy
AC: not really sure :/
final base resistances: +7(IPOS), +6(monk), +3(VoP), +3fort(paladin) = 19 fort / 16 ref / 16 will
+5 from divine grace
+2 to Ex or Su undead abilities
+1 fort (con), +4 reflex(dex), +7 will(wis)
+4 bonus to will against compulsion (VoO)
+6 to DC to resist stunning fist
electrical resistance 10
energy resistance 15
damage reduction 10/evil
damage reduction 10/unholy
1. level based feat
2. bonus human feat
3. bonus monk feat
4. bonus VoP feat
5. gained from monk levels
6. gained from IOPS levels
7. bonus IOPS feat
8. bonus VoP feature
note not sure how to get Ki Strike (holy), required for Holy Ki Strike, and I should probably try and get spring attack in there somewhere, since I presume he would have problems otherwise?
thanks,
Core
You're certainly not going to need any Paladin levels - your saves are going to be outstanding anyway.
Your stats need some close examination, just to be certain thats what you want. Certainly adding to CHA with your VoP bonus is going to be a painful choice to make. As well, considering that you're going to be lacking STR, you may want to concentrate more on Stunning Fist attacks - Rapid Stunning and Vow of Nonviolence both occur to me as good choices for that.
The Ki Strike (Holy) is a typo, and really requires Good-aligned Ki Strikes. Which is to say Santified Ki Strikes.
At higher levels, you're going to want Leadership. I recommend that your cohort is a powerful spellcaster who you advise: otherwise you're going to have extremely troubling difficulties with lack of magic.
Really, if you want to ditch Monk, the Shintao Monk (updated for v3.5 in Dragon #3XX) is a great class to multiclass into.
r.e. cha bonus, I was more going that route from a role-play perspective (heading towards the vow of peace etc.), rathern than any desire to increase power - I'll move some things around and see how it looks
I'll try find rapid stunning - I've not noticed that one in the books I have to hand atm (if it's in PHB that's on loan atm, I'll have to check that again).
I hadn't considered leadership - very sensible suggestion, thank you.
I'll try and find the shinto monk description, I also have the Weightless Foot monk that someone sent me, that seems interesting, but I wish that was a core class instead
I liked the idea of the IOPS, and things like Uncanny Dodge (which would otherwise require 4 levels of rogue, that don't stack with the monk abilities) and the final celestial transformation with damage reduction 10/unholy were what I was aiming for - I will have a look at some other presitge classes and/or consider a different route, to open up my options.
Level 20 is a long way off anyway - I'll think about what other classes would be useful to end up with rather than paladin
Edit: just realised that it would make perfect sense to end up taking the saint template instead of paladin - would have to talk to the DM if we get that far, since technically I'd be an outsider from the 10th level of IOPS, though I could always see if I can get the saint template earlier than that (better from my point of view to take it at the end though).
Thank you for your advice.
Core
(A) Monk 20 // Ghaele 20 (10HD +10LA)
- Ghaele has a racial progression built into Savage Species, which makes adapting the 3.5 version easier. Racial D8's overlap class D8's for 10 levels, with Monk D8's used for 10 LA levels, 20D8 at 20th. Full BAB and 3/4's BAB for 10 levels each should result in decent BAB. Base movement 50 feet.
- Good selection of spell like abilities. Eventually casts spells as a 14th level cleric. Gaze ability. Light Ray when in alternate form (ranged touch) 2D12 overcoming any resistance/reduction, extraordinary power. Alternate form, 150ft perfect. Protective Aura. DR 10 / Evil & Cold Iron.
(B) Monk 20 // Astral Deva 20 (12HD +8 LA)
- Monk D8's for the 8 LA levels, with monk/deva D8's for 12 levels, 20D8 at 20th. Savage species progression, making a 3.5 race progression easier to construct. Full BAB for 12 levels and 3/4's for 8 levels, slightly stronger BAB then a Ghaele. Base movement 50 feet.
- Good selectionof spell like abilities. Does not gain cleric levels like the Ghaele. Stun ability. Uncanny dodge. Fly 100 good. DR 10 / Evil.
(C) Monk 20 // Solar 36 (22HD +14 LA)
- Doesn't have to be a Solar specifically, although I'd want a Celestial of some form. The idea is a celestial with a higher ECL then 20th. Eventually stronger then an ECL 20th race, but takes longer to progress to it. D8's for first 22 levels, +1 BAB for 22 levels. Would need to extrapolate a progression, Savage species has none. Base movement 50 feet.
- Great selection of spells, plus casts spells as a cleric 20, regeneration except against evil & epic weaponry. Protective aura. Fly 150 good. DR 15 / Evil & Epic.
(D) Monk 20 // Paladin 3 / Psion 7 / Warshaper 1 / Psion 16
- Mixture of D8's and D10's, good BAB but possibly not 4th iterative attack. Human extra feat (Vop at 1st), base movement 30 feet. No need for a racial progression.
- Paladin gives guaranteed 16's to STR, CON, WIS and CHA in this setting, immune to Fear, Disease, CHA to Saves (+3 minimum). Warshaper gives immunity to criticals. Saint adds several immunities. Psion 16th without need for a spellbook, close to 20th manifester level by epic if the game lasts that long; lots of utility/buff/enlarge/metamorphosis type powers to supplement the monk focus.
(E) Monk 20 // Paladin 3 / Spellcaster 17
- 3 D10's and 17 D8's. Full BAB for 3 levels, and 3/4's for 17 levels. 3D10 + 17D8, hit points. Human bonus feat, (VoP at 1st level), base movement 30 feet. No racial progression to build.
- Paladin as above. Spellcaster generic class (Unearthed Arcana) giving 8th level spells/powers from all caster lists (Arcane, Divine and Psionic); True Strike plus Divine Power/Favor plus psionic Enlargement. Close to maximum caster level by epic, if the campaign goes that way. Ultimate flexibility, but must select known spells in advance with a limited list.
(F) Monk 20 // Paladin 3 / Psychic Warrior ? / Initiate of Dragon Mysteries ?
- 3D10's + 17D8's (unless IoDM has greater then D8's). Full BAB 3 levels, 3/4's BAB 17 levels (unless IoDM has full BAB). Human bonus feat (VoP at 1st level), base movement 30 feet.
- Paladin as above, see (C). Combination of Psychic Warrior and IoDM, but I don't have Draconomicon yet which makes this a hard one to evaluate. Will pick it up soon, as I like Libris Mortis which is the same product line.
*EDIT*
A, B, C, D, E and F... works better then A, B, C, D, D, E.
Solar 36 (22HD +14 LA
Is that from Dragon magazine, or do you have an alternate source?
So, is a slam an unarmed strike?
As has been well established in this thread, a monk can use any part of the body to perform his normal unarmed attacks (such as legs for kicking), in addition to a normal armed attack sequence with the TWF feat chain.
If this is the case, and he's using his hands, why would the TWF feat chain attacks with his slam attacks not get his monk unarmed strike damage?
Ie, assuming monk 20, BAB15, (twf/itwf/gtwf)
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 with your legs (greater flurry, not sure if flurry cost is zero by then, twf penalty), and +13/+8/+3 with each hand (assuming you can pay the feat cost, twf penalty), for a total of
+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3/+3, all with monks unarmed damage.
Or is this some illogical case where you can only get the extra attacks if you use your hands to perform slam attacks for 1D6 damage?
As a plus you naturally qualify for usage of the battlefist :D
Where did I go wrong?
EDIT: updated for twf penalty of -2 all round
So, is a slam an unarmed strike?
According to the FAQ, no. A slam is a natural weapon. QV:
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk weapon such as a sai or a kama.
Back to you:
If this is the case, and he's using his hands, why would the TWF feat chain attacks with his slam attacks not get his monk unarmed strike damage?
Same reason a monster monk's claw attack doesn't get the monk's unarmed damage. It's a claw attack. It gets claw damage. The slam attack should get slam damage, the monk's unarmed strike should get monk's unarmed strike damage.
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 with your legs (greater flurry, not sure if flurry cost is zero by then, twf penalty), and +13/+8/+3 with each hand (assuming you can pay the feat cost, twf penalty),
You wouldn't get extra slam attacks for the same reason a monster can't get multiple claw attacks. Natural weapons are treated differently--they do not progress. Multiattack can reduce the penalty, INA can increase the damage, but that's the only way I know of to affect natural attacks.
So I think your progression would be:
+13/13/13/8/3, then +13/8/3 with your off-hand (gtf), then +8 slam. Possibly +8/+8 slam, if the creature is allowed two slam attacks (like having two claws), but I doubt that's the case. Even a vampire monk only gets one slam attack (see FAQ & MM). The reason it's +8 is that your unarmed strike is treated as the primary weapon, all other natural weapons are treated as secondary, and so are all at BAB-5.
Warforged only get the one slam attack, BTW.
///
You wouldn't get extra slam attacks for the same reason a monster can't get multiple claw attacks. Natural weapons are treated differently--they do not progress. Multiattack can reduce the penalty, INA can increase the damage, but that's the only way I know of to affect natural attacks.
Forgot about the Draconomicon (though these might be reprinted in later books). Improved Multiattack drops the penalty to -0 (though secondary attacks still only get half the strength bonus to damage). And Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike -- which allow you to take 'progressions' on natural weapons, but only if you have a pair of them. I.e., you need a pair of slam attacks in order to get a progression. Rapidstrike only allows one extra attack (at -5 from the first, so -10 if you have no Multiattack feats), and Improved Rapidstrike allows two or more, at -5/-10/etc, but never more than 4 extra attacks.
Rapidstrike(RS) and IRS requires a BAB of +10 and +15, plus a pair of natural weapons, and (or is it or?) one of a handful of monstrous types (aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant).
For quite some time, Ive been thinking about doing a Centaur Monk. I have a really good minature that I have converted, and with the Centaur, you get two additional natural attacks (front hoof attacks). Ive been reading your very interesting FAQ and was wondering on what your take would be on this. The main advantages of this would be that i could perhaps do rideby attacks, and the base speed of the centaur would stack with the monk. I dont know if I would go so far to do a Feral Cenatuar, as I really dont want to do a template, and Centaur is about as crazy as Id do for a race.
My goals would be these:
*Unarmed damage that would keep me in line with the average (or slightly maxed) fighter of the same levels.
*High number of attacks, or ways to increase the damage / usage of my natural attacks.
*A reliance on speed and dexterity for AC, since as a Centaur there would be no armor comming my way.
*Actual MONK levels are not a requirement, if a combination of PRCs could do the trick.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
That should do the trick neatly.
Stunning Fist is probably not going to work out well unless you can convince your DM that levels in the Centaur class (Savage Species-style progression) count for Stunning Fist DC, and even then you're not going to have many uses with it. The upshot is that you can bypass all those feats...
CENTAUR: Weapon Focus (unarmed), Improved Natural Attack
1 Monk Mnk1 Imp Unarmed, Imp Grapple
2 Monk Mnk2 Combat Reflexes, ???
3 Fighter Mnk2/Fgt1 Dodge
4 Barbarian Mnk2/Fgt1/Bbn1 (Whirling Frenzy - UA Bbn rage)
5 ShouDisciple Mnk2/Fgt1/Bbn1/ShD1 Wolf Berzerker
6 ShouDisciple Mnk2/Fgt1/Bbn1/ShD2 Imp Trip
7 ShouDisciple Mnk2/Fgt1/Bbn1/ShD3 -
8 ShouDisciple Mnk2/Fgt1/Bbn1/ShD4 ???, ???
9 ShouDisciple Mnk2/Fgt1/Bbn1/ShD5 -
The ???s are open and should be filled with whatever Feats you'll require for your last few levels, presumably taking a PrC. Occult Slayer is a nice filler, though I really can't think of any particularly interesting choices except Primeval (Megaraptor form) and thats kind of a kooky choice.
With this basic setup, you'll be able to capitalize on your size to get (with a Sweeping weapon) roughly a +20 to Trip attempts. If you can swing a 13+ INT, you can take Combat Expertise, Defensive Throw and Karmic Strike in your open slots. Of course, then you're stuck without a PrC.
A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
Anyway I went looking after my DM made the call that I couldn't use the Improved Natural Feat.
In the 3.5 Faq it says that the monks unarmed attacks are not considered natural weapons on page 5.
A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
Monk unarmed strikes aren't natural weapons, but they can be treated as if they were natural weapons when it is beneficial to the monk.
Monk unarmed strikes aren't natural weapons, but they can be treated as if they were natural weapons when it is beneficial to the monk.
Okay, first of all, the FAQ said "A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry." Saying "a natural weapon is not an unarmed strike" is not the same as "an monk's unarmed strike is not a natural weapon". A monk's unarmed strike is special. The FAQ is simply making a distinction between unarmed strike attacks and natural weapon attacks. You can't flurry with a bastard sword for the same reason you can't flurry with natural weapons -- they're not unarmed strikes, nor special monk weapons.
In the monk's case, it's "treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells)." [by the way - that's from the brand new speical edition PHB, which has all errata pre-printing in it -- a monk's attack IS considered a natural weapon, in these circumstances]
So monks are special.
So the debate is really "does a feat count as a spell or effect." Well, it's clearly not a spell. But it does have an effect on the monk. Did they have some special meaning in mind for 'effect', like 'the results of something temporary or from an item', or did they mean 'anything that affects the monk'? [that's rhetorical - unless you're one of the PHB writers ;)] Clearly the feat would apply to the latter definition, but the former.. not really. But a Fang Ring would apply with the former definition.
Your DM should decide what 'effect' means, and apply it consistently throughout the game. If 'feats' are included whenever the term 'effect' is used in the book, from the DM's point of view, then he should allow INA. If s/he thinks feats are different, then INA not being allowed would be consistent. If he's not consistent, get a new DM. ;)
Either way, it's likely your DM wouldn't allow your natural weapon attacks (claw/claw/bite, if you had 'em) to do a monk's enhanced unarmed strike damage.
In our group, my DM doesn't allow INA, on the basis that there's a fighting style that grants the same ability, and that INA is only applicable to natural weapons (he doesn't count the feat as an 'effect', it's more like a 'skill', or an 'ability' -- for instance, a fighter's extra damage from strength or from weapon specialization is not an effect, it's an ability .. the extra stat point you get every 4 levels is not an effect, it's an ability [technically an inherent bonus to an ability, but...] So, the INA feat is not considered an 'effect' in our game .. but ymmv).
My current DM doesn't like it so it's not in the game, doesn't mean that INA is wrong (even though he says it's wrong which he has yet to convince me with his weak defense) just not kosher in his campaign. Whatever so I'll stun everything instead and let the fighters beat them into a bloody pulp.
On the lighter side, I'm curious to see the updated Complete Arcane/Races of Stone min/max monk creation guide.
Also has there been a feat prior to Epic level ones that allow a the deflect arrow feat more like combat reflexes? i.e. deflect more than one projectile weapon per round?
There's too many printed instances where it states for an example of a natural weapon is infact a "fist" which most of believe is what a monk will be using, along with elbows, knees, feet, headbutts, and whatever else we've seen in kungfu movies. One from the top of my head would be, in the CW where is talks about the Kensai augmenting his "fist" or other natural weapon and well as the spell description for Magic Fang targets/PHB.
A human's fist is a human's natural weapon. It does 1d3 damage. If you really want to waste a feat to bump that up to 1d4, you're more than welcome to.
A monk's unarmed strike attack doesn't have to be with the fist. It can be with any part of their body, 'cause they're so cool. They can even strike with their unarmed attack when they have their hands full. They also do extra damage. When you take INA, you have to pick one of your natural weapon attacks to use it -- fist, claw, bite, etc. Even if your DM allows it, there's plenty of opportunity for him to apply it only to your 'human' natural weapon, and not your 'entire body' (as with a monk). If your DM allows you to pump your monk damage with it, then that's great! I'm saying there's no black&white right&wrong here. It would be nice if there was, but there isn't. It's up to DM interpretation. If it was purely black&white, like "can I have fireball on my spell list as a 5th level wizard?", there wouldn't be so many DMs disallowing it.
Also has there been a feat prior to Epic level ones that allow a the deflect arrow feat more like combat reflexes? i.e. deflect more than one projectile weapon per round?
I haven't seen the feat yet, but there is an item in the previous Dragon Magazine issue (#325) which is a pair of bands (bracers slot, I imagine) that grant Deflect Arrows, and if you already have it, it lets you deflect two a round instead of one. It uses the entropic shield spell to create. I would think that a feat called "Rapid Deflection" that works like "Rapid Stunning" [which allows two stun attacks / round instead of one] would not be out of the question. Just hasn't been written yet, in the WotC books anyway, including Complete Arcane. Unless I missed it, but that's doubtful. There /might/ be a sidebar feat in Dragon mag somewhere [there's one called Ring the Golden Bell, which works like Northern Star style] or something in one of the 3rd party books, but I have none of those..
I haven't seen the feat yet, but there is an item in the previous Dragon Magazine issue (#325) which is a pair of bands (bracers slot, I imagine) that grant Deflect Arrows, and if you already have it, it lets you deflect two a round instead of one. It uses the entropic shield spell to create.
"Bands of the Iron Monkey"
Imagine a character with levels of 15 Druid/1 Monk. He wildshapes into a Dire Bear. Would he be able to use his Flurry of Blows to his normal claw attacks for a sequence of claw/claw/claw/bite?
As was said just a few posts earlier:
In the 3.5 Faq it says[....]
A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
So, no. However, with that character you'd havea BAB of +10 I think, so you could quite conceivably do, as a full attack action: IUS flurry (-2 to everything) +8/8/3 PLUS natural weapons (-2 from flurry, -5 from secondary natural weapon): +3/3/3 claw/claw/bite. Damage: 1d8+str for IUS (1st level Large monk), and whatever+(1/2str) for claw/claw/bite. It's 1/2 strength because all the natural weapons are treated as secondary attacks when you mix them with a full attack with a 'manufactured weapon' (in this case, your IUS). Basically, the IUS sequence itself becomes your primary.
The FAQ covers this in great detail. Search for 'monk', and read up. ;)
The only thing your DM might say is that you can't use IUS in bear form, for some reason (maybe your monk isn't trained in bear-style martial-arts). Since bears don't have an "unarmed attack" (natural weapons are not unarmed attacks, per the FAQ quote above), one could easily argue that you can't do your monk unarmed attack either (thus no flurry, and no monk damage). I'm not sure if the rules cover this possibility somewhere, so it might be up to your DM. I know that the one-page writeup of the Wild Monk (Dragon mag, see reference earlier in this thread) does NOT address the use of monk attacks in animal form (though I'd say it's clear that you should be able to use IUS/monk attacks in elemental form).
[edit: fixed BAB, cleaned up stuff]
Perhaps one of the few things that I could get past my DM...thanks for the insight though.
Druid/Monks are interesting but I don't believe they are as effective as a straight monk or straight druid. There's too many feats between the two classes to really make the most of your combo. I would say for a medium difficulty campaign they would be fine in a solid group or if you just wanted some extra abilities. I still think any animal that deflects an arrow just looks funny (in a good way).
I think it's safe to say that a magical item that grants Deflect Arrows + the character having the feat would allow an additional one. This would be along the same lines as the Mighty Cleave enchantment for melee weapons.
Yep -- in fact, it's explicitly listed in the item description, so there's really no room for interpretation. Go grab that Dragon mag, and see for yourself. It's in the back in the "Class Acts" section, under "Monk". 'course, your DM might not allow the Dragon Magazine stuff, so you might still be outta luck. ;)
Druid/Monks are interesting but I don't believe they are as effective as a straight monk or straight druid. There's too many feats between the two classes to really make the most of your combo. I would say for a medium difficulty campaign they would be fine in a solid group or if you just wanted some extra abilities. I still think any animal that deflects an arrow just looks funny (in a good way).
Heh! I'd have to agree. Check out the Wild Monk in Dragon Mag #324 (I think), in the "Class Acts" section. They lose a chunk of monk abils (abundant step, etherealness, tongue of the sun and moon, s'mother stuff), but gain wild shape, though a touch slower than a druid's progression with it. They don't get the spellcasting of a druid, but I think there's some stacking that can go on 'tween the classes, if your DM lets you multiclass.
In our group of like 12 characters (some are cohorts and stuff, but there's like 9 or 10 players), the druid is by far the most ass-kicking thing in the group. You get the right feats, and you can cast in any form. Plus, most of his magic items work in all forms (Wilding abilities, and the like). Sure, there are things that can mess with him, but they're highly rare or specific. For a brute-force unstoppable fighting force that can heal itself or fill your life full of fire, there's really nothing better. And once a druid gets shapechange, it's all over.
Point being: if they're that powerful all by themselves, adding in some monk levels for 'neat factor' probably wouldn't weaken them too much, especially if it's the Wild Monk, and you can get some stacking out of it somehow. Add in some Nature's Warrior or .. what is it .. War Shaper and stuff .. or Lion of Taliseed (imagine: a monk pouncing every round without having to spend power points to do it) .. and you might be on to something.
Based on my assumptions the value is...
20th level Monk = 2d10
+ Powerful Build = 4d8
+ Improved Natural Attack = 6d8
+ Empty Hand Mastery = 8d8
+ Fanged Ring = 12d8
+ Expansion II = 24d8
+ Initiate II = 24d12
Where can I find "Powerful Build" and "Empty Hand Mastery"?
INA - Monstrous Manual
Fanged Ring - Dragon Magazine
Expansion II - Expanded Psionics Handbook
Initiate II = Draconomicon.
Based on my assumptions the value is...
20th level Monk = 2d10
+ Powerful Build = 4d8
+ Improved Natural Attack = 6d8
+ Empty Hand Mastery = 8d8
+ Fanged Ring = 12d8
+ Expansion II = 24d8
+ Initiate II = 24d12
Medium --> large --> Huge --> gargantuan --> colossal (only 4 size increases)
INA = 1 size (even if your size doesnt increase)
Empty Hand Mastery the same
I dont have the dragon magazine, but if fanged ring is like an enlarge spell then expansion and fanged ring doesnt stack (if your DM allows it... )
I dont know what is Powerful Build
Where can I find "Powerful Build" and "Empty Hand Mastery"?
Empty Hand Mastery is in the Oriental Adventures book. There is a 3.5 update for it on the official DnD website. The update does not address the fighting styles at all, so it's assumed they're still in the game.
Medium --> large --> Huge --> gargantuan --> colossal (only 4 size increases)
Technically, there's also Colossal+.
But who knows what would happen if you later got an inherent size bonus of some kind. Like, say, with a Shapechange ring. Though I heard in Living Greyhawk that any physical size changes are all considered enlargement bonuses, and thus do not stack -- even if you polymorph into a large creature, it's considered an enlargement bonus to your size. Not sure if that spilled over into core 3.5 D&D or not.
Where can I find "Powerful Build" and "Empty Hand Mastery"?
Fanged Ring - Dragon Magazine
Empty Hand Mastery is in Oriental Adventures.
Powerful Build is only a racial trait as far as I know. I think Goliath, Half-Giants, possibly something else gets it. It treats the race as one size larger for certain things such as grapple, weapon size, etc.
Fanged Ring is Dragon 308 p41 and is not like Enlarge it's more like Improved Natural Attack, it increases the damage by a size category without changing the characters actual size.
Fanged Ring is Dragon 308 p41 and is not like Enlarge it's more like Improved Natural Attack, it increases the damage by a size category without changing the characters actual size.
The key factor would be the 'ingredients' of the item. If enlarge is used, then the end result is an enlargment effect, and thus wouldn't stack with expand any more than enlarge does (as a spell or a potion, say). If the item only requires the Improved Natural Attack feat, then it's the same effect as the INA feat, perforce, and thus would not stack with another INA feat, no more than two INA feats stack with each other. If it's made some other way, then it would stack.
The key factor would be the 'ingredients' of the item. If enlarge is used, then the end result is an enlargment effect, and thus wouldn't stack with expand any more than enlarge does (as a spell or a potion, say)
Actually no. The Spell prerequisites of an Item have no effect on said item final effect, except the item specifically mimics the spell in question.
Human: Iron Will
1 Hexblade Hex1 Skill Knowledge (Knowledge (the Planes))
2 Monk Hex1/Mnk1 Imp Unarmed, Stunning Attack
3 Monk Hex1/Mnk2 Combat Reflexes, Spell Focus (Evil)
4 Monk Hex1/Mnk3
5 Monk Hex1/Mnk4
6 Ur-Priest Hex1/Mnk4/UrP1 Combat Casting
7 Ur-Priest Hex1/Mnk4/UrP2
8 Sacred Fist Hex1/Mnk4/UrP2/SaF1
9 Sacred Fist Hex1/Mnk4/UrP2/SaF2
10 Sacred Fist Hex1/Mnk4/UrP2/SaF3
...
20 Sacred Fist Hex1/Mnk4/UrP2/SaF10/xxx3
Probably taking extend spell and persistant spell feats later, any ideas of more/other feats to use?
Is hexblade the best choice to get those class-skills needed for ur-priest? The only other option i see is either sorcerer or cleric and they dont get +1 bab and 1d10 hp.
Should i instead of taking 4 monk levels only take 2, and take more levels of hexblade.. i think i need some more skills than what hexblade got to offer though...
And what class should i use as the 3 last levels?
Fanged Ring uses divine power as the spell requirement for creating it, which to me makes no sense, since divine power has nothing to do with size increase in any way. But that is what is listed in the description.
A Fanged ring doesn't increase your size...
But it does increase your combat ability.
A Fanged ring doesn't increase your size...
But it does increase your combat ability.
It increases your unarmed damage as if it was one size category larger.
It increases your unarmed damage as if it was one size category larger.
Right, which has nothing to do with increasing your size.
A Belt of giant's strength doesn't have Enlargement as a prerequisite either, despite the fact that in includes the word "giant" and increases your strength (which happens when you get bigger too).
I'd go Hexblade1/Monk2/Hexblade +2 to qualify.
Yeah.. thats probably better, any suggestion on what to take the last 3 levels?
Yeah.. thats probably better, any suggestion on what to take the last 3 levels?
No idea really... there aren't many PrCs that a character can take at levels 18-20 and expect to get impressive results. Heirophant maybe? In my experience most games don't get that high a level anyway, so the point may be moot.
No idea really... there aren't many PrCs that a character can take at levels 18-20 and expect to get impressive results. Heirophant maybe? In my experience most games don't get that high a level anyway, so the point may be moot.
Very common, I have yet to exceed 16th since 3.0 came out...as a suggestion for the last 3 levels? 2 Dragon Disciple will net you a few solid bonuses. Taking 3 would give you a mostly for visual effect breath weapon...2d8 at 20th lvl isn't going to do a lot to things you'll be fighting. +1 Hexblade level.
Ah, then I suggest DD.
I'd go Hexblade1/Monk2/Hexblade +2 to qualify.
And then you have good saves +4/+4/+6 with your charisma added vs spells and evasion and mettle. This gives you a great deal of protection vs special effects.
At level 17 you have (with a monk's belt and monk's tattoos).....
Good Saves (+11/+11/+12) with mettle/evasion
Good BAB (+15 at level 17)
Good AC (+Wis+5 dodge bonus)
Good Damage (2d10+str+wis+10, get some size increases to make the damage soar)
9th level spells (low CL)
OK Skill points (64+20*int at level 17)
I'm not really sure what is missing, you just need more versatility.
-Heirophant would be perfect for improving spellcasting (you only need CL anyway).
-The build suffers a little from MAD so the 1/2 fiend or 1/2 dragon template would go down well, plus add some more versatility. Alternatively another race/template, max ECL 3, with good statistics would do.
-The only other obvious thing is feats, you don't get any bonus ones and you need to spend two getting prerequisites. Try Hexblade 3 / Monk 2 / Ur-priest 2 / Sacred Fist 8 / Human Paragon 3 / Fighter 2 for 3 bonus feats and +2 to a stat in exchange for 1 BAB and Inner Armour (I don't usualy put much weight on 1/day abilities unless they are stunningly good).
That's all I can think of.
Lord Kiwi,
And then you have good saves +4/+4/+6 with your charisma added vs spells and evasion and mettle. This gives you a great deal of protection vs special effects.
At level 17 you have (with a monk's belt and monk's tattoos).....
Good Saves (+11/+11/+12) with mettle/evasion
Good BAB (+15 at level 17)
Good AC (+Wis+5 dodge bonus)
Good Damage (2d10+str+wis+10, get some size increases to make the damage soar)
9th level spells (low CL)
OK Skill points (64+20*int at level 17)
I'm not really sure what is missing, you just need more versatility.
-Heirophant would be perfect for improving spellcasting (you only need CL anyway).
-The build suffers a little from MAD so the 1/2 fiend or 1/2 dragon template would go down well, plus add some more versatility. Alternatively another race/template, max ECL 3, with good statistics would do.
-The only other obvious thing is feats, you don't get any bonus ones and you need to spend two getting prerequisites. Try Hexblade 3 / Monk 2 / Ur-priest 2 / Sacred Fist 8 / Human Paragon 3 / Fighter 2 for 3 bonus feats and +2 to a stat in exchange for 1 BAB and Inner Armour (I don't usualy put much weight on 1/day abilities unless they are stunningly good).
That's all I can think of.
Lord Kiwi,
Thanks for the feedback everyone. The only problem i see with hierophant is the requirements.. both taking endurance feat and spending alot of skills on a crossclass skill, dont know if i can afford it.
Fighter to get feats is pretty good, but then i'll get experience penalty, right?
And yeah, i will probably not reach level 20 anyway, i just enjoy making a build ;)
hmm.. perhaps taking at least 2 more levels of hexblade, both gives a bonus feat and another hexblade curse/day.
1 Stunning Fist
1 Dodge
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Weapon Focus (Unarmed) -- optional
6 Improved Trip
6 Defensive Throw
9 Great Throw
Bonus - Gentle-Way Mastery
Great throw really tops this off due to that fact that you can do your unarmed damage without worrying about AC. It just takes a melee touch attack and you drop them anywhere in your threat zone - prone and hurt. You then get a +4 (prone) on your next attack which is used to stun them. Or if they're AC is too much to ever hit, you just keep tossing them around with Great Throw.
Obviously this sort of combat is best against bipedal enemies of a similar size. But it really works well against one of the monks biggest weaknesses -- tanks. I like my tin cans shaken, not stirred.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. The only problem i see with hierophant is the requirements.. both taking endurance feat and spending alot of skills on a crossclass skill, dont know if i can afford it.
Fighter to get feats is pretty good, but then i'll get experience penalty, right?
Not if your human. Hexblade is your highest base class so it's your favoured class. As your Monk level is 2 you can be a level 1, 2 or 3 fighter without penalty.
hmm.. perhaps taking at least 2 more levels of hexblade, both gives a bonus feat and another hexblade curse/day.
And come arcane spells. You could take +2 Hexblade / Fighter 1 to finish then.
Lord Kiwi,
If you are starting your campaign at a higher level & playing an evil campaign, I rate this one.
As far as classes, I would stick with Monk (Players Handbook) & Fist Of Zuoken FoZ (Expanded Psionics Handbook), they stack & allow further levels to be taken in Monk later. This gives you a purer Monk, to my way of thinking much like classic Kung Fu movie oriented, mental power wielding monks.
I would take: Monk 7/ FoZ ?
Monk 3 gives Still Mind, one of the pre-reqs for FoZ, Monk 7 gives the ability to self heal.
Monk 1 - Exotic Wpn Prof (Double Ended Sword), TWF
Monk 3 - TWD (2 Wpn Defense)
Monk 6 - Wild Talent (Pre-req for FoZ)
From here I would continue the TWF trees, both Defense & Attack, also FoZ offers bonus Psioic Feats such as ability to gain HP for each Psi Feat held.
FoZ has its Powers taken from the Psychic Weapon Master list, giving Dimension Door, Wound Healing etc... This keeps the Monk a self sufficient, versatile character, & while not a tank, able to mix it up.
Don't have my books at work with me, so will check BAB etc... tonight.
Anyway, I'm ready for the flaming! P.S. would you consider Kensai or Exotic Wpn Master in the mix?
Cheers!
What book has Amulet of Mighty fists? I keep looking for it and can't find it.
DMG :o)
Monk 6 - Wild Talent (Pre-req for FoZ)
Wild Talent can only be taken at 1st level.
But other than that I agree that Monk / FoZ is the way to go for Psionic Monks.
If you are interested in something a bit different & non-official the folks over in the Psionics board came up with the Cerebral Fist which I think is nifty. It's more like the Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist in that it builds on existing psionic classes rather than having a self contained progression.
Also there was a 3.0 PrC kind of like this introduced in the Mind's Eye / Random Encounters: The Mindknights
Currently: (immediate benefit)
Str 17 (hit/damage, increased chance of imp trip, skills, etc)
Dex 15 (AC, extra combat reflex target, saves, skills, init, etc)
Wis 17 (AC, increased DC and chance to stun, saves, skills, etc)
It's difficult since I've used each stat effectively and could easily even out the ability score. I'm tripping consistantly...well you know what mean, maxing out on enlarged combat reflexes due to the Dex drop, and with ability focus stunning more often than less.
I was thinking more along the lines between Str and Wis, maybe more Wis at 8th and Str at 12th. I figure I would try and milk my stunning fist as much as possible and the AC never hurts.
insight? and reasoning? Thanks.
(Duergar Monk who doesn't intend on taking ITWF)
Feats: Dodge, Magic in the Blood, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician, Ability focus (Stunning Fist)
Your take on Sun School's "Inexorable Progress of Dawn" for a predominately Enlarged character?
These monk builds I am reading thru are great, if you're a human, but how does a Dwarf Wizard get into Monk/Enlighted Fist without the 20% XP Penalty?
Not all builds are optimized for exp but for power level, besides most monk builds are for humans unless otherwise noted.
Monk 4/Wiz 5/E Fist 10/then whatever else you might want.
There is no such thing as an off-hand strike for a monk striking unarmed.
I think that would prove that you can't use TWF with unarmed attacks.
Hopefully this wasn't already covered...
I think that would prove that you can't use TWF with unarmed attacks.
Hopefully this wasn't already covered...
Dude... it's been covered 800 bazillion times, including at least once by the Sage. I think it's also in the FAQ now. Monks can use Flurry with TWF. It is official. Deal with it.
Edit: Sorry if my tone was a bit harsh, but this topic has been beat to death, Raised from the dead, killed again, and Raised some more until it's Con was zero, and then Animated and killed again... If you did a search on this, I bet you'd find 50 threads talking about it, or more.
Trip is good, but is just one more option. The focus is the enormous number of attacks provided by Shou Disciple (Unaproachable East) martial flurry combined with 14 monk levels (Shintao Monk [Oriental Adventures] and Shou Disciple both add levels to monk's flurry of blows attack).
If you happen to have a DM that accept a Large template (1/2 minotaur or 1/2 ogre, both in Dragon 313), so much the better. If not, you have other options to enlarge yourself (expansion, from Psychic Warrior power list is a valid option).
Hu: Combat Reflexes*
1st Level (Monk1): Unarmed Strike*, Combat Expertise*, Dodge
2nd Level (Monk2): Improved Trip*
3rd Level (Monk 3): Exotic Weapon Proficiency: chain lash (Sav. Spec.)
4th Level (Ftr1): Two-Weapon Fighting*
5th Level (Ftr2): Mobility*
6th Level (Shintao Monk1 [ShM1]): Karmic Strike*, Sidestep
7th Level (PsW1):Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)*
8th Level (PsW2): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*
9th Level (Ftr3): Deft Opportunist
10th Level (Frt4): Double Hit*
11th Level (Shou Disciple [ShD]): -
12th Level (ShD2): Spring Attack*, Knockdown
13th Level (ShD3): -
14th Level (ShD4): Power Attack*
15th Level (ShD5): Greater TWF
16th Level (ShM2): -
17th Level (ShM3): Whirlwind Attack*(other option: Defensive Throw*)
18th Level (ShM4): Cleave
19th Level (ShM5): Improved Disarm*(or Whirlwind Attack*)
20th Level (ShM6): -
To qualify Shintao Monk at 6th level and to Imp. TWF at 8th level, you must use the optional rule about fractional base bonus in Unearthed Arcana page 73. Monk bonus feats are from the optional monk style (passive way) in Unearthed Arcana page 52.
Its a better version (than the firs I posted in another thread) 'cause you get martial flurry sooner and get no xp penalty from Psychic Warrior levels. Nice specials from Shintao Monk, excelent unarmed strike damage from Shou Disciple, not to mention some psionic powers form Psychic Warrior, add a lot of versatility to this warrior-monk with a tremendous number of attacks (9 attacks if you combine martial flurry with TWF, lots of AoOs from chain lash reach, and the option of Whirlwind Attack).
Effects doesnt stack 4 different items but in different slots. if your DM allows it then i will fill my warhulk with belts of giant strength.
I think there's a flaw in the theory about the monks belt and the emulating thing. In the beginning of entery in stands: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. The prerequisite to emulate the monk class feature you must need to do it. It stands: "In this case". but its not a case because you need to do it.
Umm .. What?
The monk's belt provides two functions. Different functions to monks than to non-monks. If you are a monk (or emulating a monk via Use Magic Device or something), then you get the monk functions. If you are not a monk (or fail to Use Magic Device to emulate a monk, but otherwise succeed in using the item in the first place), you get the non-monk functions.
Where's the confusion here?
Is it possible to emulate monk levels for the Monk's Belt with UMD to increase the unarmed damage and Ac gained by a Monk? and why because there is really great confusion in the different threads about it.. is there good evidence showing that it is possible or not possible?
Or just with other words:
Is it possible to emulate monk levels for the Monk's Belt with UMD to increase the unarmed damage and Ac gained by a Monk? and why because there is really great confusion in the different threads about it.. is there good evidence showing that it is possible or not possible?
Depends on what you can talk your DM into, like most potentially overpowering but RAW things.
But, if your DM loves random power, then UMD is definitely the skill for you.
It's a big stretch though. I honestly can't see any DM giving that to your character.
But, if your DM loves random power, then UMD is definitely the skill for you.
Ah, I see now. UMD emulates a class feature, not an actual class. The example in the PHB describes someone emulating 'turn undead' in order to trigger the function of a magic item that creates holy water when held by a cleric or paladin that performs a 'turn undead' ability.
Since the monk's belt is not triggered by an ability or one of a monk's class features, then the real question becomes: can UMD be used to emulate an entire class? It can emulate a race. It can emulate an alignment (and would have to, in order to emulate any monk features, if they weren't already lawful).
In our campaign, UMD has been allowed to emulate classes, but I'm not sure we gave it much attention, because it didn't seem too overpowered of a function. Our house rule for UMD kinda makes it balanced, I suppose. For purposes of the monk's belt, the character was always treated as having effectively 0 levels in monk when they successfully emulated the class, so they'd end up with level 5 monk abilities from the monk, regardless of their UMD roll in excess of 20. I could see if your DM allowed your UMD roll to set your emulated monk level, which was then buffed by 5 more thanks to the belt, then that would be highly munchkin and overpowered.
Can I have a bump?
But a lot of the upper-level monk damage builds rely on the hands counting as both AT THE SAME TIME. i.e. wearing both a battlefist (manufactured) and having the improved natural attack feat (natural).
Can anyone explain why we assume that they CAN act as both, AT THE SAME TIME, and support that decision.
All I can ever find is that people accept it because it's advantageous to building a power-monk.
In our campaign, UMD has been allowed to emulate classes, but I'm not sure we gave it much attention, because it didn't seem too overpowered of a function. Our house rule for UMD kinda makes it balanced, I suppose. For purposes of the monk's belt, the character was always treated as having effectively 0 levels in monk when they successfully emulated the class, so they'd end up with level 5 monk abilities from the monk, regardless of their UMD roll in excess of 20. I could see if your DM allowed your UMD roll to set your emulated monk level, which was then buffed by 5 more thanks to the belt, then that would be highly munchkin and overpowered.
The RAW would allow a character to emulate a class feature, i.e. Improved unarmed strike (damage), in conjunction with the use of a Monk's belt.
And although emulating a feature dosen't actually give it to you, you do gain it for the purposes of activating a magic item. Which is enough for a Monk's belt.
I don't recall a limit on the number of class features that can be emulated.
Nothing about these min/max threads has ANYthing to do with logical sense. It is all about RAW, 2nd party rulings, and the interpretation of words and linguistic expressions.
Because according to the same logic that states a monk's weapons can act as BOTH natural and manufactured weapons (not EITHER, as it should be), a monk can wear an amulet of mighty fists +10 and an amulet of natural weapons +10 and receive full bonus for both since the bonuses are of different types.
+20 fists, anybody?
The other very stupid thing is that UMD never states how LONG this lasts, or how often you have to make the UMD check for weapons that are continually active (every round? every ten rounds? when you USE the item?)
UMD ?
RAW ?
thanks
RAW - Rules as Written
thanks
That's completely ridiculous.
Nothing about these min/max threads has ANYthing to do with logical sense. It is all about RAW, 2nd party rulings, and the interpretation of words and linguistic expressions.
Because according to the same logic that states a monk's weapons can act as BOTH natural and manufactured weapons (not EITHER, as it should be), a monk can wear an amulet of mighty fists +10 and an amulet of natural weapons +10 and receive full bonus for both since the bonuses are of different types.
+20 fists, anybody?
Jeremymc, they're both enhancement bonuses. And a +10 enhancement bonus costs 2 million gp. Plus, a character can't use two amulets at the same time anyway.
And the only real limit on UMD is that it takes a skill use (standard action) to emulate a class feature, so for each separate thing you're emulating, you devote a round to it.
The other very stupid thing is that UMD never states how LONG this lasts, or how often you have to make the UMD check for weapons that are continually active (every round? every ten rounds? when you USE the item?)
You "use" a continuous item when you put it on. IIRC it stays activated for something like an hour.
Both amulets are indeed enhancement bonuses, but your interpretation of RAW concerning the Monk's fists acting as BOTH natural and manufactured weapons is that they act as DIFFERENT things for different purposes, and for each instance of the use of an item or feat, it acts as whichever type is best, and that it can use multiple differing magical items to apply the same bonus twice over, under the excuse that one is manufactured and the other is natural.
The trip monkey o' doom thread explained it best, where the manufactured battlefist was stacked with the amulet of natural weapons and the fanged ring... All of those items worked at the same time, and they all stacked with one another. Both the Battlefist and the Fanged Ring provided the one-size-category bonus...
So why are the people who evince that belief stopping there? If they really do believe that their hands act as BOTH manufactured weapons and as natural weapons, then what's stopping you from buying one amulet of natural weapons with 9 bane enhancements, and an amulet of mighty fists with a +5 flaming burst, cold burst, etc. and stacking them both?
And if you DO rule that they can't be used simultaneously, then you'd have to rule that all other magical effects of the same type wouldn't stack, even though they apply to differring types of weapon.
No, a +10 enhancement bonus doesn't cost 2 million gold. That's very silly. Read the weapon creation tables in the DMG, I'm certain that a flaming, brilliant energy +5 longsword does NOT cost 2 million gold. Yet it is still a +10 equivalent weapon.
Yes, but once the actual Enhancement bonus is greater that +5, the weapon becomes epic and thus invokes the x10 epic multiplier.
And Enhancement bonuses to the same statistic do not stack. Period.
No, a +10 enhancement bonus doesn't cost 2 million gold. That's very silly. Read the weapon creation tables in the DMG, I'm certain that a flaming, brilliant energy +5 longsword does NOT cost 2 million gold. Yet it is still a +10 equivalent weapon.
A +10 enhancement bonus costs 2 million gp. A +10 equivalent item costs from 200k to 2 million gp.
A flaming, brilliant energy +5 longsword doesn't have a +10 enhacement bonus.
Both amulets are indeed enhancement bonuses, but your interpretation of RAW concerning the Monk's fists acting as BOTH natural and manufactured weapons is that they act as DIFFERENT things for different purposes, and for each instance of the use of an item or feat, it acts as whichever type is best, and that it can use multiple differing magical items to apply the same bonus twice over, under the excuse that one is manufactured and the other is natural.
You can add the same bonus to something as many times as you want, but if the bonus type doesn't stack, it doesn't matter.
You can cast Greater magic weapon and Greater magic fang both on a monk, and the enhancement bonus to damage will be the better of the two.
The trip monkey o' doom thread explained it best, where the manufactured battlefist was stacked with the amulet of natural weapons and the fanged ring... All of those items worked at the same time, and they all stacked with one another. Both the Battlefist and the Fanged Ring provided the one-size-category bonus...
An effective size damage increase isn't a typed bonus, and should always stack no matter what. This is different from actual size increases from spells, which often do not stack.
So why are the people who evince that belief stopping there? If they really do believe that their hands act as BOTH manufactured weapons and as natural weapons, then what's stopping you from buying one amulet of natural weapons with 9 bane enhancements, and an amulet of mighty fists with a +5 flaming burst, cold burst, etc. and stacking them both?
Well, for starters (as I said earlier) you can't use two amulets at once.
And if you DO rule that they can't be used simultaneously, then you'd have to rule that all other magical effects of the same type wouldn't stack, even though they apply to differring types of weapon.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by that at all. If I'm wielding a flaming longsword in one hand and a flaming, piercing crossbow in the other, they both apply the Flaming quality. Only the crossbow uses the piercing quality.
And as for multiple magic weapon abilities applied to the same weapon from different sources, it isn't anything new.
A bow transfers all of its enhancements to the arrows it fires, meaning that a Bane vs. animal +3 frost arrow fired from a +2 flaming holy shocking burst longbow becomes a +3 bane vs. animals frost flaming holy shocking burst arrow.
The gauntlets of Taarnahm the vigilant apply the throwing and returning properties to any weapon wielded by the wearer.
- Yes, you can wear two amulets at once. If you have the epic feat that grants you an extra slot.
- Yes, they can both be +10 amulets, if you've got the mulah (2 million each, not 200k -- otherwise, everyone would be wielding +10 swords).
- The bonuses from those amulets would never stack, even if you had the epic feat that allowed you to wear them both at once. They are enhancement bonuses. And SINCE your hands count as both natural weapons and manufactuered weapons "at the same time", you'd be getting enhancement bonuses from two sources for the same attack. You can't just decide "Oh, this round, my attacks are only natural weapons, not manufactuered ones." They're both, always, for purposes of spells or effects that enhance them. That's what the RAW says. It's not for purposes of determining attack iterations (e.g., +15/+10/+5 versus +15/+10/+10/+10/+10....). It's not for purposes of damage types. It's not for other purposes other than those stated in the RAW. Since the amulets count as 'spells or effects' in this case (and Jeremymc, you might think that's ridiculous or silly, but that's a separate argument), they would both apply to each of your attacks, but they still would not stack. I suppose if you could find a +10 amulet that granted, say, a competence bonus, then it would stack. But good luck on that.
- size bonuses. Some size bonuses are typed as an enlargement bonus. Those would not stack with other enlargement bonuses. But when it comes to granting you extra damage per the size category table, but the bonus is not otherwise typed, it's hard to say that they don't stack. There are plenty of examples in the game where you get a "plus X bonus", untyped. There are even examples where they explicitly say "this stacks with everything." It's odd that they have such things, given the numeours 'types' to choose from to assign to a particular kind of bonus. But, there it is.
- Flaming the RAW and the powerful combinations of abilities won't invalidate them. If you use the RAW to disprove how a particular something works, then you've got something interesting. For example, "On page such and such in the DMG, it says that similar typed bonuses don't stack. Wouldn't that make the amulets not stack, since they're both enhancement bonuses?" This is a min/max board. Its sole purpose is to find horrible abuses of the RAW to demonstrate and highlight mechanisms in the game that are either (a) broken, and destined to be fixed in a FAQ, or (b) legitimate but advantageous to your character. Sometimes the things these threads come up with are later overruled or fixed in the FAQ or Errata. Sometimes they're villified, such as with the size category damage bonuses stacking (read the FAQ, and you'll find the example of the enlarged monk with Empty Hand Mastery).
- Many of these abuses draw on 3rd party material. If you don't like it, if you think it's too wicked, but you can't find a RAW to refute it, just don't put it in your game. We're not making you. Think of it as an academic exercise in gaming mechanics.
- A monk requires all sorts of prestige classes and whatnot to become all powerful. A straight level 20 monk still pales in comparison compared to many other classes. I've seen a straight druid played extremely effectively, certainly more so than a straight monk--go visit the druid min/max boards to see discussions on that. Arguably, the right PrCs for that druid would make them even more powerful. So, as wicked and nasty as some of these min/maxed monks /seem/ to be, there are far nastier min/maxed things out there to worry about.
- If you really want to see powerful, use the alternate Gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana. That would put these min/max builds to shame.
--Rooth
Thanks
Can I get a description of empty hand mastery? Can't find this OA update I hear about on the DnD website.
Thanks
The OA 3.5 update is in Dragon Magazine, not on the website. I forget what issue, but it's mentioned elsewhere in this thread. The errata is on the website, but it's only for 3.0. There weren't any changes to the fighting styles.
Empty Hand Mastery required about 5 or 6 feats, and as a bonus for having those feats, you get the Empty Hand Mastery .. fighting style (they don't really feed off each other, so the notion was that you'd get something special for taking these diverse feats). Empty Hand Mastery increases your monk unarmed damage by one size category. So you do damage as though you were a monk one size bigger (large, for most of us). 2d8 turns into 3d8. 2d10 turns into 4d8.
You can find the writeup in the OA book. I don't have it handy, or I'd repost it.
Canada - 6
Russia - bump !!!
The OA 3.5 update is in Dragon Magazine, not on the website. I forget what issue, but it's mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
It's Dragon 318.
The Amulet of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) makes the Amulet of Mighty Fists a laughingstock. I suggest a +1 WrathfulHealing Paralyzing GhostTouch SureStrike Mettaline amulet. Combine this with Greater Magic Fang + Permanency. As strong as possible. Rar.
Where can I find a Mettaline amulet?
Ghost Touch - DMG.
Paralyzing - ?
Sure Strike - ?
Wrathful Healing - Enemies & Allies.
Where can I find a Mettaline amulet?
Ghost Touch - DMG.
Paralyzing - ?
Sure Strike - ?
Wrathful Healing - Enemies & Allies.
Metalline is in Underdark.
Saethar
Empty Hand Mastery
You have mastered the martial arts style of "Empty Hand" - a hard style emphasizing strikes with the hand.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Fists of Iron, Sunder, Eagle Claw Attack, Ki-Shout, 4+ ranks in Bluff.
Benefit: Your unarmed damage increased by one die type, as if you were one size category larger then you are.
Old (each) ----- New Damage.
1D2-----------1D3
1D3-----------1D4
1D4-----------1D6
1D6-----------1D8
1D8 or 1D10--2D6
1D12----------2D8
1D20----------4D6
Old (each) ----- New Damage.
1D2-----------1D3
1D3-----------1D4
1D4-----------1D6
1D6-----------1D8
1D8 or 1D10--2D6
1D12----------2D8
1D20----------4D6
This table is old, and invalid for some entries. It's been superceeded by the table in the DMG (pg 28, table 2-2). It's probably more convenient and less confusing (though equally valid) to reference the monk damage table for non-medium monks, as given in the PHB's monk class description.
I haven't found anything in the game that does d20 damage anymore, though there are some classes that 'increase the die type of damage', such as Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, which could feasibly advance your d20 damage die to the next larger type, but there is none in the 3.5 D&D system (sure, you could get a d24, a d28, a d30, a d36, ... but they're not part of the defined set, as on page 5 of the PHB).
Where can I find a Mettaline amulet?
Ghost Touch - DMG.
Paralyzing - ?
Sure Strike - ?
Wrathful Healing - Enemies & Allies.
He was referring to the Amulet of Natural Attacks in Savage Species. It's an amulet you can enchant like a weapon to give your monk unarmed strikes magical enhancements such as flaming. The rest are all weapon enhancements. Paralyzing is in Arms & Equipment and Book of Exalted Deeds, Sure Strike is in Sword & Fist, and I thought it was reprinted in a 3.5 book somewhere but I don't remember where, it was different though I'm sure. The 3.0 is +1 and lets the weapon count as +5 just for purposes of bypassing DR which in 3.5 is redundant, I don't remember what it does in 3.5 if it got reprinted.
"Mmmmm, yeah." - Office Space
These threads are like little insect children. The weak ones die off quickly, and the strong ones are the responsibility of the queen forever!
Had a wierd thought this morning thanks to the new "sizing" ability in the CV.
Take an enlarged Goliath monk with combat reflexes, Sun School, at least 18 dex and then couple his flurry of blows with a longspear (either from DOShou, or Eberron feat). Now you can wield a COLLOSAL spear with monkey grip. But if you SIZE it up to Gargantuan and take the penalty to wield, you're wielding what, a 20-foot spear? With a 10-foot blindspot around yourself?
Now, standing 5 ft from bad guy, you can trip them with your first attack then drive him 5 ft. back with another, and get the AOO from that (as it's not a 5ft. STEP, but rather a push, you get the AOO). Now with another single attack, you push him another 5 ft (Sun school is every 2 hits, you move him 5 ft? I think that's it) and get another AOO (you can get multiple AOOs if the opponent provokes them, as I recall). Now he's 15 ft away, and within reach of your spear, so hit him again, push, and get another AOO, and hit him again at 20ft. and push him again for one final AOO .
So, the grand total is:
For 5 regular attacks, we get 4 AOOs, push the opponent 25 feet away from us, and the opponent is prone through the whole thing. And for good measure, you can wear the "claws of the leopard" and do this at the end of a charge. Ha ha.. My DM would be so ****** off.
Now, standing 5 ft from bad guy, you can trip them with your first attack then drive him 5 ft. back with another, and get the AOO from that (as it's not a 5ft. STEP, but rather a push, you get the AOO).
Except that this is Sun School you're using to push him, which specifically says "This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity for either character." (you have the option to move with the target--you would not be AoO'ed by anyone for doing so).
Now with another single attack, you push him another 5 ft (Sun school is every 2 hits, you move him 5 ft? I think that's it)
"To use this maneuver, you must hit the same foe with the first two unarmed attacks from a flurry of blows."
Maybe you should go back and re-read the Sun School feat. ;)
(you can get multiple AOOs if the opponent provokes them, as I recall).
Except for movement. See the PHB, page 138: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
So, the grand total is:
5 unarmed attacks, an unused spear, and the foe ends up 5 feet away from you after the first two. Though you can opt to keep up with him, if you wish.
Yeah, its lousy. Sigh. I really need to update this thing. Anyone else want to do it for me?
I think in MSWord you can use the word substitute feat...errr, I mean function. (whew) and replace all the words containing Expert Tactician etc.
Lucky for me our current DM was feeling somewhat gracious and allowed me to swap out the feat before next game...probably because he still owes me money but I'll take what I can until he pays me back in full.
Yo go queen bee!
Swarm...Swarm - "Spiderman and Friends"
Meh, I figured something like that would trip me up.
BUt on the other hand, I never knew that trick about AoOs, that you can't provoke more than one no matter how many squares you move through.
My DM's been pounding our group with AoO that way.
Stupid basterd!
:headexplo :hoppingmaStupid Sun School feat. What a waste of space. USELESS.
Flash of Sunset isn't too bad -- don't know of any other way in the game to be able to take an action after teleporting/dimdooring. Well, unless they rewrote some of those transportation spells such that you're not 'dizzy' or whatever after you 'port.
BUt on the other hand, I never knew that trick about AoOs, that you can't provoke more than one no matter how many squares you move through.
My DM's been pounding our group with AoO that way.
Yikes! Yeah, it's a common point of confusion. I think in the original 3.0 book, there was no such clarification, but the FAQ/Errata/something did fix/clarify it, and they added the clarification into the 3.5 book. Without such a ruling, reach becomes absolutely overpowered, as you're aware of first-hand, sounds like. ;) Tumble defeats it, of course, as does Spring Attack (kinda *). For every power-play, there's a counter-play, it seems.
Always question anything that seems broken. Like, say, "Shower of Quills" or whatever that druid spell is. Since they ruled that all spells, regardless of effect, penetrate any kind of damage reduction (even ice storm's bludgeoning damage) with the exception of immunities, it's possible to dish out absolutely obscene amounts of damage with that spell. Stuff like that makes me want to cling to the 'paltry' spell resistance from the straight monk class. Even into epic.
* - in a duel, Spring Attack is defeated by Holding an Action. Especially if that held action is Trip -- you spring on me, if I trip you, you're done (since you took a full-round action to Spring Attack, though feasibly you could make a Tumble DC 35 to stand as a free action, but see later); next round, I go first (side-effect of Held Action), and I womp you for a full round. If you try to stand up, you provoke an AoO (even if you make a tumble check to do it as a free action, unless you have the kip up class feature), with which I can just trip you again, and even if I fail, the best you can do is get a full-round on me, which means we're even and your Spring Attack was completely useless.
Flash of Sunset isn't too bad -- don't know of any other way in the game to be able to take an action after teleporting/dimdooring. Well, unless they rewrote some of those transportation spells such that you're not 'dizzy' or whatever after you 'port.
The Teflemmar Shadowlord lets you make a full attack after teleporting/dimension dooring.
For my purposes, even an enchantment of some kind that could be added to an Amulet of Natural Attacks would work.
Yah, but considering the Monk gets an incredible 1 USE per day of dimension door, and use-activated items of teleportation or dimension travel are generally very expensive, and take a whole standard action to use,
The use of abundant step also takes a standard action. This feat trumps the standard rule that you can only take an attack during your turn if you have a standard action or full action to spend. Much like haste breaks that rule.
Wand of Dim Door + Use Magic Device
Helm of Teleportation
9th level Mage
Those are just a few other ways of using this ability. Throw in haste, and you get to make two attacks, at full bonuses. Keep in mind that this is just one of three abilities of a tactical feat--tactical feats aren't meant to be particularly useful all the time.
you're usually better off by just running on your fast feets towards the enemy.
Assuming you can run there. The only times I've ever used abundant step where when terrain was an obstacle, such as a bad-guy on a cliff, or when we had to reach that pedestal in the middle of the sea of lava, or something like that.
Yes, running and then getting a standard action is going to be the best way to deal with a runaway foe about 90-95% of the time. But the rest of the time, you either have to take a double move, or you need to use that dim-door or equivalent. Wouldn't it be nice if, upon arriving, you can stun the guy, or trip him, slowing him down so that the rest of your party has a chance to catch up?
The Teflemmar Shadowlord lets you make a full attack after teleporting/dimension dooring.
- What the heck is a Teflemmar Shadowlord? Sounds like the surface of a good frying pan. ;)
- Where is the TS printed?
- Assuming it's a PrC, it stands to reason it would be significantly cooler than one part of a 3-part feat that has minimal requirements (flurry, BAB+4).
Haste no longer works that way. You only get an extra attack when you attack as a full-round action.
And monk's can't usually use wands. The helm of teleportation... Yah, I spose. But it's expensive. For the same price, you could probably get your fists enchanted with a couple of nice abilities.
uMMM...
Haste no longer works that way. You only get an extra attack when you attack as a full-round action.
Ah, that's right. But, it still breaks the standard rule of "you can't attack if you have no action to attack with," was kinda the point I was trying to make.
And monk's can't usually use wands.
That's why I put "+ Use Magic Device" after it. It's not a skill to be overlooked, even for it being a cross-class skill (and there are a bunch of ways of fixing that).
The helm of teleportation... Yah, I spose. But it's expensive. For the same price, you could probably get your fists enchanted with a couple of nice abilities.
Perhaps, but now we're going back to comparing an "always on item" to "a portion of a 3-portion feat." Not really a reasonable comparison. If Sun School allowed you to use abundant strike 10 times a day as one of its granted abilities, it would be awesome then, but radically overpowered for a mere tactical feat.
For my part, the Amulet you speak of isn't allowed in our campaign. Sigh. Actually, out of the books we use (everything printed by WotC from Savage Species and past), there's really only a few things that are completely banned, or with otherwise particular rulings on. The Amulet and INA are two. It's hard to be an effective fighting monk without those, so I'm pretty much shoehorned into being a tactical / utility character. Sun School lends itself to that, since there's basically no other way in the game to get that attack after dim-dooring (well, Greater Teleport I think doesn't leave you dizzy, but this goes back to the "9th level mage" option I mentioned [yeah, I know, it would be 13th level in this case, but it still requires a PC's assistance to take advantage of, with or without the feat]).
Look at it another way -- the party gets to pretty high level, and they start teleporting places instead of walking or flying. Your DM's going to be awfully tempted to ambush the party, or at least put them in a sticky predicament when they arrive (plane hopping is notorious for this). If you're lucky, you're right next to someone when you show up, and you can get a free attack--even if you haven't even done a surprise round, and are still flat-footed (nothing in the feat specifies otherwise, though sensibly, you'd probably need line-of-sight to your opponent, or awareness or something, before the 'port).
I guess all I'm trying to say is that the feat can be occasionally useful, which is the whole point of a tactical feat. Those occasions can be made more frequent through the use of items or friends. There are certainly better feats to pick, depending on your style of play. This being a min/max board, it's probably enough to note that Sun School doesn't seem particularly exploitable, and probably won't show up in any power-builds, but it's not really completely useless either. I'd strongly consider having a cohort pick it up, for example.
With the Monk's Belt, you could afford to sacrifice some of your levels to a ritual of transformation... Are there any creatures that offer "dimension door" or "teleport"? You could become a low-level demon....
Or alternately, you could pay a cleric to cast "planar ally" for you, summon a demon/celestial with the possession/channell ability, and channel them. You get their supernatural abilities - which means teleport at will yourself +50 pounds.
Not bad at all...
And you get a pretty hefty DR.
Hmm.. I have to try this.
I don't even bother with the other ability besides Intorable Progress of Dawn. I hardly ever can stun an opponent twice in a row and if I do it's probably not going to make it past the 2nd stunned round. The attack after a dim door or the like is nice but, whatever it's not the main reason for taking the feat IMO.
I've seen the knocking back ability and the loop hole is, they don't mention what size catagory you can do it up to. I even played devil's advocate in a game saying, there's no way a medium sized human monk is going to be able to push a gargantuan sized dragon back 5 feet because of it. Oh well.
I'm considering Sunschool especially since they nerfed Expert Tact and Imp NA is not in our current campaign. It works much better when you're a large monk. The rest of the tactics are just gravy.
...but you don't have to take my word for it. (duh-dun-dunt)
Sunschool, has its moments and just more the higher level you are as a monk. You don't have to take it as monk since it's no exclusive just easier for a monk to take.
Is there another way for a character to get Flurry of Blows?
Plus if I could, Shou Disciple levels are worth it IMO as good substitution levels for fighter even with the restricted bonus feat list.
Exotic weapon master (from complete warrior) can get flurry with a two-sided weapon (double axe for example). Im not sure if it would work ( im not looking at the book) but I guess its worth a shot.
My monk had a polymorph item crafted earlier, and this is the price my DM came up with. I feel it might be alittle over priced. Is there anyone that can write down the correct formula and compare the final price for me? That would be much appreciated it.
Cloak of Polymorph, CL 7th, Price 20,140 gp.
Duration 7 mins (being the minimum caster level), max HD 7.
A cloak also be a more proper slot for something such as polymorph there shouldn't be a price hike.
Insight?
So, should I challenge my DM to say the cost should include another usage per day or to lower the price accordingly? to 10,000 ish gp?
And yes, the item is command word activated.
Here is what I came up with.
Spell effect > Command Word > Base Price: Spell level 4 x CL 7 x 1,800 gp = 50,400 gp
Special > Charges per day > Base Price Adj: Divie by 5 (1 use) = 10,080 gp.
That's double what my DM charged me at the 20,160 gp price. Do you add a 3rd equation for duration of effect? I figured that since it's made at 7th lvl you'd have a min/max of 7 mins anyway. Why does this price still seem too much?
It gives you the ability to polymorph with unlimited duration, but you can change the form you change into only once/day. It also has CL 7 (like the item you intend to create) but only costs 11.200gp.
It was based on 3.0 polymorph though, so nowadays it would cost higher.
The item from Arm&Eq is 3.0 but the price should reflect somewhat the huge margin of difference between his quoted price and that one.
On to new monk questions!
Hmmm...
What sort of movement action does Use-activation require? And what sort of trigger? I mean... I can understand a use-activated weapon going off when you strike somebody? But how do the rules work in 3.5?
Is it a free-action? Move-eq? Does it work only when he gets struck, or hits someone else?
Because making it a use-activated, but activated by the character himself seems to put it under teh guise of a "standard action" magic item....
Half-ogre is now ECL +2, and Minotaur is now a whole Creature class, so you have to add LA and it's Giant HD before you start taking monk levels.
No more game-breaking templates!
HalfMinotaur is a template from Dragon magazine and is really borken, and only +1 ECL. It is NOT the "Minotaur" race.
Replacing HalfOgre with Goliath should give you similar results as to what is presented in the guide, with the exception of qualifying for WarHulk.
Don't think there aren't a ton of broken templates to use. A Goliath HalfMinotaur executing an attack with a Gargantuan Golden Gauntlet enjoys +4 size increases to the Medium Monk damage for -2 to hit. With ShouDisciple levels, you can even Flurry with it.
But my "Huge Duergar of Infinite Expansion" homebrew template of +1LA provides me with the ultimate advantage!! So there.
Splatbooks... man... I hate splatbooks... It's 3.0 all over again. And 2.0 for that matter. Cripes.
A core game is a contest between clerics and druids to see who can make the fighters, paladins, rangers and monks in your party retire early and take up farming. Thats a situation thats no better.
Otherwise I would probably take up farming, specialize in the scythe and take Chanteau as my patron deity.
Our favored soul (an example because of access to cleric spells and it's a splat book class) is out performing out barbarian who can achieve a 29 strength when raged. Now that hitter classes no longer are restricted to just wpn focus/spring attack/trip they're a lot more fun to play and certainly more verstile.
I love splat books, I just hate my dm when bars certain books but allows NPC's to take advantage of them. Without variety or splat books, 3.5 would have never made it past 2.0.
Strength ends up looking even less favorable when you compare it to wisdom, especially when you take the uber-broken Shiba Protector into account. (I mean, come on: a single stat to attacks *twice*, damage, AC, ki abilities and spot and listen? Sign me up!)
Admittedly, in the excellent tripper Monk builds, strength should take precendence, but in your basic builds I can hardly see rationalization for not going the route of one of the other two stats.
Finally, I'd like to apologize for the possible incoherence and/or subpar articulation that may or may not be contained in this post; I'm so tired right now that I can hardly keep my eyelids open.
especially when you take the uber-broken Shiba Protector into account. (I mean, come on: a single stat to attacks *twice*, damage, AC, ki abilities and spot and listen? Sign me up!)
Where is the Shiba Protector? I'm not remembering that one, although it doesn't sound like something I'd expect from official WotC materials.
Please note that I advocated tripping for strength-based Monks, not their dexterity-based cousins.
Though tripping is neat at low-to-mid levels, tripping in most high-level battles is a very risky proposition.
Let's say that you have a +25 on opposed trip checks, and your opponent has a +35, because he's stronger and a Huge-sized creature (I dunno, Fire Giant, or whatever). You're gambling very bad odds that your attack won't be completely wasted in trying to trip this thing. He's already got a 10 point head start on the roll, which means if he rolls a 10, you have to roll a natural 20 to beat him.
And no matter how tooled up your tripping character is, there's still a bunch of things you still can't trip:
a) worms.
b) incorporeal creatures.
c) anyone at all with "roots of the mountain feat".
d) another tripping-style character.
Basically, you're building your whole character on entering every fight already better than the enemy at this one thing. Which doesn't always happen. But on the other hand, a monk high in strength, who focuses on attacking, has no definite weak poin.
Considering that a Tripped opponent has -4 to hit you, thats a powerful incentive to get them prone. Additionally, the initial attack is a Touch attack, meaning that using your lowest iterative attack bonus to attempt this is usually good idea and generates a good economy of attack usage.
At higher levels, it is a bit of a problem in that you can't always rely on it - but the same trouble occurs to most every class. Spell Resistance and Power Resistance especially come to mind. In such a case, beating the tar out of your opponent is always a good idea.
Though I wouldn't go so far as to say that favoring STR is a foregone conclusion. More than anything, its a merely strong option that favors my style of play.
Basically, you're building your whole character on entering every fight already better than the enemy at this one thing. Which doesn't always happen.
It's not like a trip-happy monk can't do damage either. That's part of tripping, after all: doing damage with a prone bonus. If they're not tripped, you can still do damage. Or Stun. Or paralyze. Or whatever other feats you picked up. Tripping only involves a couple of feats. A strength-based monk has to pick up quite a list of feats to really set themselves apart.
But on the other hand, a monk high in strength, who focuses on attacking, has no definite weak poin.
Other than having a low AC (having weaker dex & wis), they'll have to put up with damage resistance, fast healing, stupid-high armor, and other such annoyances to a damage-centric character. Yes, the trip-character won't be able to damage them any better, and maybe even quite a bit worse, but at least they'll have other tactics they can try to use to deal with the problem (having Trip as a touch-attack is extremely handy when dealing with walls-of-armor). The damage-focused monk character is a one-trick pony--that happens to work most of the time, granted, but it's still one trick.
The bottom line is that min/max characters tend to be damage-focused, but a tactical build can be more effective in some situations at the cost of being less effective in others. "Look at how much damage I can do in a round!" "Yeah, that's nice, but you can't swim." For me, there's already so many power-hitters in the party, there's no way I could compete, even with one of mean's power-builds. So, the tactical path fills a niche in the party, and makes me feel a lot more useful in most circumstances. Keep in mind that, with their impressive speed and special abilities, a monk character isn't really designed for dishing out huge piles of damage in combat (don't you wish you could trade in slow fall for a feat or two?). If you want to do that, go try a druid or a cleric or even a fighter. But, if you just want to do the most damage possible within the confines of a monk, then strength-focused is the way to go.
Take combat out of the equation, and the definition of a min/maxed monk would look completely different. If your campaign is nothing but combat after combat, then your character might look just like one of mean_liar's power builds, and thus be strength- and damage-focused (though to be fair, he does have other builds). If you actually do any roleplaying in your campaign, then you might need to consider other options. Not that you can't roleplay a power-build, it's just that you won't have much in the way of tools outside combat. Diplomacy, Charisma, Leadership, Tongue of the Sun and Moon .. these things and others are sacrifices made on the altar of min/maxing, and aren't missed in a combat-heavy campaign.
Considering that a Tripped opponent has -4 to hit you, thats a powerful incentive to get them prone.
Not to mention that they don't get a full-attack action the next round. Unless they're really cool, but then they'll provoke an AoO while standing up (with which you would stun or otherwise mess them up, but you can't trip them again). Unless they're kip-up cool, but then you have other issues to worry about. ;) Oh, and if you're in a party that has other melee characters, they all get bonuses to smack the guy, too. Though Tripping isn't useful 100% of the time, it can sometimes be more useful than just being able to do damage.
I generally only suggest a tactical build in unique situations - a party with a lot of Rogue levels, a party with a plethora of Barbarians, that kind of thing.
Sense Motive and at least one Profession are skills that any good minmaxed monk should have. Diplomacy too, if no one else is going to pick up the slack. But your main problem as a Monk in a non-combat situation is that your skill list is a short one for social interactions and almost always outperformed by a Cleric or Bard.
Out-of-combat episodes require mostly WIS, INT, and CHA. A reliance on DEX over STR isn't going to do anything for that, and you're left with the basic troubles of monk-MADness.
Oh, and one of the Dragon Magazines had a feat that allowed a character with Trip to use their Dex instead of their Strength to perform the Trip. So, if you're a Dex/Wis monk, there's another tool for you. I wish I had more details for you, but I don't think I have that particular issue. I'm sure someone here knows what I'm talking about. It may even have been reprinted somewhere.
D'you know where that can be found?
IMO, at least, such a feat negates one of the most powerful advantages that a strength-based Monk has.
Alternatively you could take a level of both master thrower and exotic weapon master and trip everyone with shurikens using your dex modifier.
D'you know where that can be found?
IMO, at least, such a feat negates one of the most powerful advantages that a strength-based Monk has.
Unbalancing blow [Drg 295]. I like it as a feat primarily for flavor reasons: everybody knows that some of the best martial artists are not particularly muscularly strong, and rather rely on grace and speed. I'm not sure that cultivating a Yang exterior means physical strength.
[Edit] Bah! I get on the phone for half an hour... :P [/Edit]
However, I now meet the prereq for some wild feats. Due to the restrictions I was thinking, either:
Grizzly Claws - flurry of blows + 2 claw attacks
Lion's Pounce - due to the low number of uses it's...so so
Serpant's Venom - potentially deadly during a polymorph with a high con
Wolverine's Rage - can never go wrong with +2 str/+2 con
Blindsense - it's just cool to have blindsense
Currently don't have CA infront of me so I don't know if there are any wild feats there as well as the draconomicon.
Any insight would be great.
8th lvl duergar monk, focusing in the stunning fist tree currently and about to get a new feat next lvl. The ability to wildshape as a gift is = to once every 5 levels.
Thanks.
Expert Tac in CV is absolutly nothing like it was previous. Basically, without breaking the SRD it's good for a wall of spearmen, or phalanx. It makes an excellent feat for military npc's in a war like campaign...otherwise, sadly it doesn't even grant you the user of the feat any bonuses.
Nerf.
Grizzly Claws - flurry of blows + 2 claw attacks
Lion's Pounce - due to the low number of uses it's...so so
Serpant's Venom - potentially deadly during a polymorph with a high con
Wolverine's Rage - can never go wrong with +2 str/+2 con
Blindsense - it's just cool to have blindsense
Blindsense isn't all it's cracked up to be. Blindsight is where it's at. Blindsense is a lot like "hey, there's an invisible guy .. somewhere ..", but they still get to backstab you. Sorry, 'sneak attack' you.
I would take a good look at the prestige classes that have 'wildshape' or somesuch as a prerequisite. If your wildshape lasts a decent length of time, Warshaper is worth looking at. Immunity to critical hits and stunning is never a bad thing.
There's a feat out there (in CV?) that doubles your power-attack damage bonus when you charge with a jump. I seem to remember it didn't specify "only the next attack", but rather, "attacks made that round" or something, though I could be wrong. I'm sure someone here knows what I'm talking about, and will correct me. Anyway, if you combine that with Lion's Pounce, you'll potentially do ungodly amounts of damage in a single round. Even though it has limited uses, it would still be the bomb. Almost literally.
I think the feat is called Leap Attack, though I do not have Power Attack...it wouldn't be til 18th lvl in order for me to take this string of feats. Plus, things at that level will probably boast an very high AC, as a monk it's not likely I will be hitting them often with a decent Power Attack combined with pouncing abilities.
I liked the Shifter PrC the most, since by 2nd level I could be monking around as a large giant. Their natural ac and str alone make them very attractive monsters to monk in, but the PrC's prereq hurts...Alertness and Endurance. Bleh, not sure if it's worth it. I would have to take a fighter level next lvl in order to take shifter as early as 11th.
I'd like to continue to take monk levels to about 12th for abundant step, or at least 11th for Greater Flurry afterwhich I'm open to suggestions.
At this point I'm leaning more towards, Grizzly Claws and Serpent's Venom. I figure both give me additional attack(s). Combined with FoB's it's more damage output. A shame about blindsense, you'd think a wild feat for that duration would grant blindsight.
Are their any wild feats in CA? I have the book it's just on loan atm.
I don't see how Rage could compare to Pounce. A +2 STR is a marginal increase in offense compared to restoring attacks otherwise 'lost' on a charge.
How does the venom work? Based on what you posted its unclear.
...
Expert Tactician was changed entirely. A successful AoO against an opponent gives all your allies a bonus to hit and damage for the round. Thats the entirety of the feat.
The pounce ability is nice and I can see how you would favor it over other ones, however at most I would be able to use it maybe twice a day do the limited number of wildshapes. It's not like it has a duration, just trading wildshape uses for everytime you wish to pounce.
Compared to the limited number of uses per day, the mini rage seemed more bang for your buck. +1 hit/+1 damage from the additional str although marginal lasts for 5 rounds and it's rare I ever come out of battle untouched. I'm surprised, you favor str for a monk highly
Serpent's venom would give me a bite attack + venom for 10 minutes per useage...or is it one minute? Regardless, it damages their con which of courses affects this hps and fort saves making them more suspectable to stunning fist/pain touch.
I said it would be potentially effective since the DC is con based. 10 + 1/2 HD + Con bonus. At 10th level the DC is already 18 unmodified for me, and easily bumped up to 22 with bear's endurance.
On avg, we get attacked 2-3 times an adventure depending on where we are. Somedays, there is 1 encounter, somedays too many.
Well maybe you'll like this if you like pounce: There's a spell called Lion's Pounce in Savage Species. It's a first level druid spell. If you can't cast it for some reason, it's just 2000gp to get it as a continuous/use-activated item, or 1800gp to get it as a command word item.
If your DM doesn't allow Savage Species for some reason, There's a psionic power that does the same thing. It's a 2nd level power, though, I think, so it would be much more costly to convert into a useful item, but probably worth it.
I've gotten enough insight on the different tactics, thanks. I'll see if there are any other books out there that I can somehow utilize this ability as a monk.
I may just take something completely different.
Though I am beginning to see the potential of stunning attack/venomous bite...rolling 2 saving throws in a row has been the fall of many.
I hate to add a psionic class with 0 BAB just to qualify.IMO the rogue/monk one is my favorite simply because a solid +2 bonus to stunning fists during a sneak attack is nice. Sure the FA from ranger is nice but 5 levels from a ranger just to get a +1 and a +2 bonus vs. 2 types of favored enemies doesn't seem frequent enough...it's also 5 levels which can be put towards more monk levels or other things to really empower your monking. Rogues present a lot of nice skills, sneak attacks, access to sneak attack feats, and UMD. As for the sorc/monk, Cha is just not important enough for the already ability dependent monk. A level or two of sorc just for shield and enlarge person maybe but then you don't need to burn a feat just to switch back and forth. Monk/paladin? Once again, unless you have excellent stats monk/rogue seems the most favorable IMO for the purposes of switching back and forth.
Note that in the table for Ascetic feats, it shows monk + rogue levels stacking for sneak attack dice, but the feat description talks about monk unarmed damage only. Per the errata rules, the text takes precedence, but I wonder what they really meant. Deft Opportunist requires 8d6 sneak attack dice, which 10 levels of rogue wouldn't give you, of course, but ........
Only problem with monk/rogue really is that if you don't time it just right, you lose an attack.
I'm new to the thread, and since Search is down, I haven't had time to read all 24 pages of posts, so I hope you'll excuse me if my questions have been answered earlier in the thread. ;)
I'm not sure if I have a different copy of Savage Species than what has been mentioned here, but I can't find "Lion's Pounce" or an "Amulet of Natural Attacks". There is "Lion's Charge" and "Necklace of Natural Weapons" however, so I assume those are what was meant.
My current level 11 monk is based on the MinMax Vault's "Uber-Charge Monk" build, so a ring of Lion's Charge (continuous effect, 2,000gp, I believe) will be very useful.
Regarding the Necklace, I'm unclear where some of the recommended enhancements are listed. Wrathful, can't find. Healing, can't find. Paralyzing, can't find. GhostTouch, DMG. SureStrike, S&F. Mettaline, can't find. (Of course, so many enhancements will make the necklace prohibitively expensive at this time, but I'm still curious what each does, just in case I decide to make a lower-power necklace.)
The only info I can find regarding the Fanged Ring says it increases your damage dice as if you were one size larger, without actually being enlarged, correct? Cost is 10,000gp? CON damage is also mentioned, but what I found wasn't very clear on specifics. (And now I can't find the page I had that listed the size damage progression.)
The Necklace of Natural Attacks is what you're looking for - I call it an Amulet solely out of a (bad) habit.
WrathfulHealing - Enemies and Allies (one enhancement - "Wrathful Healing", not two - "Wrathful" and "Healing")
Paralyzing - Book of Exalted Deeds
Metalline - Underdark
FangedRing - effective +1 size increase to unarmed damage. I believe it costs 8k. The CON damage thing is probably from Wounding.
Lion's Charge is a Druid spell in the Miniatures Handbook. I really thought it was Pounce. Oh well.
The Necklace of Natural Attacks is what you're looking for - I call it an Amulet solely out of a (bad) habit.
WrathfulHealing - Enemies and Allies (one enhancement - "Wrathful Healing", not two - "Wrathful" and "Healing")
Paralyzing - Book of Exalted Deeds
Metalline - Underdark
FangedRing - effective +1 size increase to unarmed damage. I believe it costs 8k. The CON damage thing is probably from Wounding.
Thanks for the quick reply.
My DM may have Enemies and Allies, so I'll check it out. He definitely has BoED, since another monk in the party is using Vow of Poverty, so I'll check that out, as well.
I have the FR Underdark book, but my DM has already banned all of FR, basically because of a single feat (spellcasting prodigy). I'll check out Metalline, anyway.
OK, so the Fanged Ring increases your damage by one size, and gives your unarmed attacks Wounding. My level 11 Monk is doing unarmed damage as if level 16 due to his Monk's Belt, so instead of 2d8 he will do 3d8 (not 2d10, since it's a size increase, not a monk damage increase), if the table I found somewhere is correct. Another thread (on this board, I believe) said the CON damage from the ring is doubled on a crit, but the DMG/SRD says that is not the case for weapons with the Wounding effect. Multiple webpages set the price at 10k, so that's what I'll go with.
Thanks again!
Edit: Correction, a site I found says the Fanged Ring only does the temporary CON damage with a crit.
The ring basically gives the equivalent of the Improved Natural Weapon feat (I found the table I was looking for under that feat). Since that feat is not mentioned specifically, I assume the ring stacks with it.
Back to monking.
Ummm, yeah...playing ToEE and the monks actually throw kicks and punches. Finally. Pretty cool.
My current level 11 monk is based on the MinMax Vault's "Uber-Charge Monk" build, so a ring of Lion's Charge (continuous effect, 2,000gp, I believe) will be very useful.
Not to be a punk, but that item sounds about as balanced as the Ring of True Strike. YMMV.
When it becomes abused to the point the game becomes less fun for characters who can't compensate without it then there is a balance issue that needs to be addressed.
Our campaign has truestrike rings, however they are epic level items. As for pounce rings, no one has felt the need to have one made or even pursued the ability to do so. Our barbarian considered it but was going to take the feat that allowed it, however he much rather liked his other choices and we're still holding out own.
You really can't compare a truestrike ring with a pounce ring due to the effects and duration of each spell/ability. I won't go into it since there are numerous threads already, but this is the character opt boards...it's hard to complain when some DM allows anthropomorphic half-yanti minotuar trolls running taking level of DD so they can be immune to fire etc. Compared to a pounce ring, it seems trival.
continuous effect pounce ring? sure, but not for 2000 gp. continues effect true strike ring? with a bonus of +20 to hit...sure, epic lvl crafter. See making magical items off the wotc site for more details.
Game on.
Lion's Charge lasts for 1 min/level and is only 1st level, so you could buy potions of it for 50 gold each and skip the whole issue.
The version you describe is from Savage Species. The most up-to-date version (to my knowledge) is in the Miniatures Handbook, which appears to be a more balanced replacement. It's a 3rd level druid spell, it is swift, personal, and lasts for one round. Basically it's one 3rd level spell for one charge attack.
I'm not really trying to debate Pounce itself. I just wanted to point out that a 2k "always Pounce" ring is highly abusive of the magic item creation formulas.
continues effect true strike ring? with a bonus of +20 to hit...sure, epic lvl crafter. See making magical items off the wotc site for more details.
Hasn't anyone pointed out to you that making an actual continuous True strike ring is pointless? Put it on, get one true strike. Take it off. Put it on again. Get another true strike. Take it off. Put in back on...etc.
Command word Truestrike is a lot more useful (there was basically a bow of this in S&F, but it was actually spell completion). 1,800 gp approximately to, every other turn, use an action to make on attack roll on your next turn get a +20 bonus.
It can be powerful at that price (comes in very handy in those situations where you keep missing), but is by no means broken.
The version you describe is from Savage Species. The most up-to-date version (to my knowledge) is in the Miniatures Handbook, which appears to be a more balanced replacement. It's a 3rd level druid spell, it is swift, personal, and lasts for one round. Basically it's one 3rd level spell for one charge attack.
I'm not really trying to debate Pounce itself. I just wanted to point out that a 2k "always Pounce" ring is highly abusive of the magic item creation formulas.
I don't own the Miniatures Handbook, as I don't really consider it to be a book made for playing Dungeons and Dragons, and I have no interest in miniatures. I do agree that the one in Savage Species is probably a bit too good, and the 2k price for the ring is calculated using the spell from there. I think the Mini Handbook version sounds like it's been nerfed a bit too much, though. If you make it only last one round but castable as a swift action and self-only, I think it would be ok at 1st or 2nd level. 3rd is too high.
It would ridiculous to take on/off a ring of true strike in a game to the point its more like clicking a mouse button just swap weapons in diablo or nwn.
As for the minihandbook, it was originally published to introduce the mini warbands and completely take roleplaying out of your game. However in order for it to sell at all they needed to cater to players who have to have every book inorder to find more ways to crunch numbers. Hence, more PrC's, feats, the "swift" action which is practically casting an instant spell in MtG, as well as a few new monsters and spells. I wonder how it actually sold in comparison to other books. Also remember Savage Species is quasi 3.5, like 3.25 so a lot of the prices and spells are slightly off.
Back to monking.
If a monk really wants pounce, he should take the 4 levels of Singh rager!
Pounce is 1 min/lvl right?
Nope. See Snarf's post, a few messages back. It's 1 round only, regardless of level. Swift action, personal only. Not sure how that would compute in 'real' magic item calculations, but odds are good it's still a good deal, if you can swing it.
Note that there's no continuous haste item in print, either (something else that would be pretty cheap). There are some spells in the game that simply break when translated to magic items.
If a monk really wants pounce, he should take the 4 levels of Singh rager!
Singh Rager? Where's that? Does it have an alignment requirement? Anything with "Rage" in it sounds like a chaotic class to me.
The Str- (Damage, Trip, Grapple), Wis- (Stuning Fists Variants, AC) and Dex- (Disarm, AC) based monks I can vaguely imagine. But what about the rest?
Con? Err... goat + karmik strike? High hp and some DR/-?
Int? Kung-Fu Genious from Dragon magazin? 3 levels in swashbuckler?
Cha? Tattooed Monk? Ascetic Mage + Enlightened Fist?
Can you give me some sugestions for a good build at about 8th-12th level, that is not utterly dependant on specific magic item for each of the prime stats? Not really something detailed, but more of a guidelines (well, a detailed build is not really unwelcomed
).I believe that the Druid spell in the MiniHB is 2nd level, making a use-activated item 2000*3*2 = 12000gp.
Didn't seem too horribly abusive a price to me (or my current DM).
...
A high CHA monk would be a fine Enlightened Fist; INT would push me to think about a Wiz EnlightenedFist as opposed to a Swashbuckler, as the 3 levels to acquire INT-to-damage really screw up a Monk's capabilities to 'monk' - you'd end up a monk-ish warrior as opposed to a real monk - might as well take KungFuGenius, Swashbuckler, a few Rogue levels and the Wind PrCs from Dragon at that point; and I see no real way to make a CON monk unless you can play with Deepwarden and/or the TattooedMonk's poisoning ability (which may require the old OA class rather than the new CW class to pull off anyway).
While you did post this to the min/max boards, keep in mind that just because monks benefit from high Str, Dex, and Wis, doesn't mean that all monks have these as their highest three stats. You could have a very Charismatic monk instead of a very strong one, without needing some gimmick to leverage Charisma to do more than it already does (such as by taking sorcerer levels). Maybe they use bluff in combat. Maybe they have a few leadership feats, and quite a strong following. Maybe they prefer to use diplomacy to avoid combat. Pretty much no matter what you do, they won't be as effective a fighter as a monk that has the three primary stats as their three highest. So don't oppose that, work with that - play a different role in the party. Be better at something useful (possibly not combat!) that the others are not.
I know I know ... blasphemous on a min/max board. ;) I'm just remembering the all-cleric campaign I played in once. Different gods and everything. It was fun, but it was important that we each had certain specialties and strengths to help fill the gaps left by missing fighter-types, rogue-types, and non-divine casters.
I believe that the Druid spell in the MiniHB is 2nd level, making a use-activated item 2000*3*2 = 12000gp.
Since the last few posts about Lion's Pounce/Charge have mixed statistics for it, here's the excerpt from pg 37 of the Mini HB:
Lion's Charge [Transmutation]. Druid 3, Ranger 4. Components: V. Casting time: 1 swift. Range: Personal. Target: You. Duration: 1 round. Description: This spell grants you the pounce special ability (see page 313 of the MM).
That's all there is.
Ok, while ago me and a friend were discusing the possibility of an all-monk party from 6 players - everyone with a different prime stat to discus his style of training.
Oooh, this sounds like fun! I made a crazy Int based monk last night just messing around and decided to use him as an NPC. If you can use the Rokugan Campaign book you can get alot more mileage out of this idea. You're obviously going to need to multiclass some for alot of these ideas, particularly Charisma and Int. I'll post more later, when I get home.
You might consider putting this in its own thread... or not. I guess it's not exactly off-topic here. But it is certainly worthy of its own thread.
Lion's Charge [Transmutation]. Druid 3, Ranger 4. Components: V. Casting time: 1 swift. Range: Personal. Target: You. Duration: 1 round. Description: This spell grants you the pounce special ability (see page 313 of the MM).
Ok, then its 30k for a Pounce use-activated (ie, always on) slotted (boots, most certainly) item.
Doesn't seem that unreasonable.
Too bad about the banning of FR books, Spell casting prod is not longer as broken as it used to be. In fact, unless you multi-class say as a Mystic T, or play some hybrid caster/something else it's no longer a to die for 1st lvl feat.
Funny you said that, because Spellcasting Prodigy + Mystic Theurge is exactly the combo that he says totally breaks FR. Way too abusive. He says if we want to use stuff from FR, then he'll use it against us as well, and since we don't have any arcane casters (just divine ones), we'd be hosed.
Regarding Lion's Charge in a ring, my DM would probably rule that I'd have to take it from the MiniHB version of the spell. He'd unlikely agree to the Savage Species version, particularly since it's even more powerful than the Dire Charge epic feat.
A similar ruling was made regarding Flying Kick. The OA version (which is 3.0) doubles your charge damage (which would turn into a 3x crit charge), whereas the CW version (which is 3.5) is just 1d12 bonus damage (and not subject to crit multipliers, similar to sneak damage). Multipliers are too abusive, in his opinion (and rightly so, I suppose) particularly when you find ways to stack them.
Part of the problem is that WotC has failed to print decent errata for pre-existing books when new material comes out that has updated versions of the same spells/abilities from those earlier books. The 3.0-3.5 conversion download doesn't address Savage Species. When a new book changes something found in an earlier book (such as Lion's Charge in MiniHB, particularly since everything in that book is advertised as being 3.5-compatible), they need to publish errata on the earlier book. Otherwise, it's hard to tell what is legal anymore.
Ok, while ago me and a friend were discusing the possibility of an all-monk party from 6 players - everyone with a different prime stat to discus his style of training.
The Str- (Damage, Trip, Grapple), Wis- (Stuning Fists Variants, AC) and Dex- (Disarm, AC) based monks I can vaguely imagine. But what about the rest?
Con? Err... goat + karmik strike? High hp and some DR/-?
Int? Kung-Fu Genious from Dragon magazin? 3 levels in swashbuckler?
Cha? Tattooed Monk? Ascetic Mage + Enlightened Fist?
I present Master Po, the Int based "monk":
Old Human
RokuganNinja1/monk2/swashbuckler3/Bayushi Deceiver9/InvisibleBlade5
Feats: Ninja Dodge, Way of the Scorpion (Int to Initiative), Kung Fu Genius(h), Stunning Attack(m1), Blind Fight(m2), Improved Initiative(3), Evasion, Weapon Finesse(Sw1), Int to Damage (Sw3), Combat Expertise(6), Poison Use (BayD1), Int to Initiative again (BayD2), Wpn Focus: Punching Dagger(9), Scorpion Feint (BayD4) (+2 Feint and follow-up attack), Improved Disarm (BayD6), Strike at the Tail(12) (free attack after disarm), The Pincers Hold (15) (feint&hit=autothreat), Subtle Manipulator (18) (+3 Bluff and Hide, -2 Dipl, 18), Opportunist (BayD9)
Benefits: Int to Initiative twice, Int to AC twice*, Int to damage, 6d6 Sneak Attack (9d6 with daggers), Feint as a free action, Autothreaten if hits after a feint, Outrageous amount of skill points, Evasion.
Initiative +38
AC 55 (56 hasted, 57 Dodge) (10+6AC+3Defl+3Nat+7Dex+26Int+1monk), Touch 46, Flat-footed 47?
Attacks: +30/30/25/20/15 hasted chain, fist, or dagger (1d6+15, Avg 18.5) (+6d6 Sneak Attack or +9d6 w/dagger, Avg ~40 or 50, Avg Crit ~60 or 70) (includes a +1 enhancement bonus to attack&dmg)
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 24, Con 22, Int 36, Wis 14, Cha 20
(85 points, distributed 1:1 starting at 0, then add items, aging, tomes, and level boosts)
Saves: Fort +24, Refl +30, Will +15 (Hasted)
Items: +5 Int Tome, +6 Int Item, +1 Str Tome, +2 Str Item, +6 Dex Item, +4 Dex Tome, +6 Con Item, +4 Con Tome, +4 Cha Item, +3 Nat Armor (18k), +3 Ring Prot (18k), Bracers of Armor +6 (36k), Boots of Speed (12k), Ring of Blinking (27k), +1 Punching Dagger, Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k), Monk's Belt (13k), 3 Potions of Flying, 3 Potions Cure Critical (Maximized, CL7, heal 31 points), several eggshell smoke grenades
Books used: Oriental Adventures, Rokugan Campaign Book, PHB, DMG, CW.
*I think Invisible Blade limits the AC bonus from Int to your max class levels. If so, his AC would be a bit lower.
Ah, the venerable Master Po.
Earth Hertiage seems to truely capitalize for a dwarven monk who likes to trip.
My current build is:
Human Druid 5/Warshaper 2/Master of Many Forms 2/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 3
Question #1: How are my monk unarmed attacks used in non-humanoid forms?
My 'normal' unarmed attack damage is 1d8.
Medium size shifted (say..bugbear, so warshaper kicks in) attack damage is 2d6
My 'Troll' form would be: 3d6
How do I figure out what my damage would be for 'non-humanoid' forms?
If I'm shifted into a Polar Bear (2d6 claw), can I use my unarmed strike attack (3d6 Larger critter + warshaper) instead?
Question #2: How does 'flurry' stack in non-humanoid forms?
The FAQ clarifies how my Flurry ability will work in forms that can have both maufactured weapons and natural weapons (such as Troll). But it makes no clarifications for combining forms in which no manufactured weapons are listed (such as octopus).
Ignoring strength bonuses, if I flurried would my octopus attacks be: +6/+6/+1 (tentacles) at 3d6 damage, and 1 beak at +1 for 2d6 damage
or
do I get 11 tentacle attack (10 + flurry) at 1d6 + the beak attack?
And do I use the monk damage or the regular tentacle damage?
I'm confused!
Question # 3: My build needs some work, please help with some advise on optimizing monk + wildshaping.
Would Druid 5/Warshaper 1/Natures Warrior 3/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 3 be superior?
As far as my campaign goes, I'm limited to: "Greyhawk-core (no Faerun/Eberron), all the Complete Books (but no new complete races), only standard DMG for item access. I'll be limited to MM only critters for shifting, no FF, MMII or MMIII critters
Thanks for any clarification you can help provide!
The sample character in CW has Wholeness of Body healing 30 hp of damage at CL15 (but only Monk7). It seems that the sample character has some issues.
Beyond that, in a campaign where you cannot get custom magic as a general rule (we are reliant on the DM's treasure drops for the most part), is the kensai worth it for a monk?
Question #1: How are my monk unarmed attacks used in non-humanoid forms?
My 'normal' unarmed attack damage is 1d8.
Medium size shifted (say..bugbear, so warshaper kicks in) attack damage is 2d6
My 'Troll' form would be: 3d6
How do I figure out what my damage would be for 'non-humanoid' forms?
If I'm shifted into a Polar Bear (2d6 claw), can I use my unarmed strike attack (3d6 Larger critter + warshaper) instead?
I don't think it's been well defined whether you can make unarmed strikes while in a non-humanoid shape. Some would rule that if the creature can't normally use melee weapons, then they are also denied an unarmed strike. In other words, if you transform into something that doesn't have an innate unarmed attack, whether "improved unarmed strike" would be usable is up to your DM. I don't recall seeing this clarified in the FAQ or elsewhere, but someone else might know.
Assuming your DM allows you to make monk attacks in a non-humanoid form, your attack sequence would be similar to humanoid forms. For the full attack action, you would do your flurry as normal, then get whatever natural weapon sequence the creature normally gets. If it's claw/claw/bite, then you would get flurry + claw/claw/bite.
Question #2: How does 'flurry' stack in non-humanoid forms?
The FAQ clarifies how my Flurry ability will work in forms that can have both maufactured weapons and natural weapons (such as Troll). But it makes no clarifications for combining forms in which no manufactured weapons are listed (such as octopus).
Ignoring strength bonuses, if I flurried would my octopus attacks be: +6/+6/+1 (tentacles) at 3d6 damage, and 1 beak at +1 for 2d6 damage
or
do I get 11 tentacle attack (10 + flurry) at 1d6 + the beak attack?
And do I use the monk damage or the regular tentacle damage?
I'm confused!
You can never use natural weapon attacks as part of your flurry, as the FAQ clearly states (albeit for humanoid forms that can make melee weapon attacks--suggesting that you shouldn't get flurry/unarmed attacks in forms that can't use melee weapons). A monk's unarmed strike attack is a monk's unarmed strike attack. A natural weapon attack is a natural weapon attack. It's as simple as that. They never combine into the same sequence, though you can do both sequences in a full-round action.
Thus, when you use the flurry attack progression, and follow it up with a natural weapon progression, the damage follows suit -- the monk attacks do monk damage, the natural weapon attacks do natural weapon damage. But you would not do monk damage when making a natural attack, and you would not do natural weapon damage when making a monk attack. This was discussed earlier in this thread, and is in the FAQ (though again, not with non-humanoid forms, but it's simple enough to extend to them, if your DM allows it).
Question # 3: My build needs some work, please help with some advise on optimizing monk + wildshaping. Would Druid 5/Warshaper 1/Natures Warrior 3/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 3 be superior? As far as my campaign goes, I'm limited to: "Greyhawk-core (no Faerun/Eberron), all the Complete Books (but no new complete races), only standard DMG for item access. I'll be limited to MM only critters for shifting, no FF, MMII or MMIII critters
I asked a similar question a long time ago in this thread. Asking for help with a character build with a host of restrictions and conditions is not attractive to "sensei", or most folks in general. This is a min/max thread, after all, and not a monk-help thread. I would open up a new thread for this question.
I believe that the Druid spell in the MiniHB is 2nd level, making a use-activated item 2000*3*2 = 12000gp.
Didn't seem too horribly abusive a price to me (or my current DM).Lion's Charge [Transmutation]. Druid 3, Ranger 4. Components: V. Casting time: 1 swift. Range: Personal. Target: You. Duration: 1 round. Description: This spell grants you the pounce special ability (see page 313 of the MM).
Ok, then its 30k for a Pounce use-activated (ie, always on) slotted (boots, most certainly) item.
Doesn't seem that unreasonable.
12k and 30k are both reasonable prices for the same item with the same ability? ;) How about 45k, or 90k? When does this power become too expensive to be worthwhile?
FWIW, there's a host of low-level psionic abilities that have the same sort of conditions -- cast as a swift action, lasts only a round. But would be horribly cheesy to have always-on / use-activated.
Then there are things like Prevenom Weapon. It is a 1st level power, lasts 1min per level, that does 2 con damage on "the next successful hit" (effect goes away once discharged). If it were made use-activated, you could be doing 2 con damage (fort save to negate) on every attack. OUCH. That's potentially twice as good as wounding. And if the item was made at a higher manifester level, it could be pumped to 4. Or even 6. Heck, even if it's ruled as only once per round, that's pretty cool.
Or how 'bout Strength of My Enemy - drain a point of strength with every attack, and add it as an enhancement bonus to yourself (max +8). No save. 2nd level power. Put it on use-activated gloves or something for $12k. Yowza.
All I'm getting at is that if a use-activated pounce item is ok with your DM, that opens up a whole realm of possibilities for other items that would be quite powerful and very cheap. There might be some unwritten magic items that would work quite nicely with the min/max'ed monk.
level 2 soon to be 3
str 22
dex 14
con 18
wis 13
int 13
car 13
my health is 20 and my unarmed bonus is 6 my mele bonus is 7 and my ranged bonus is 3... i think
my ac is only around 15
My DM considers my the Guantlets to be Unarmed, because of a very long story.
i dont know my current feats i'll find out tomorrow, but could someone please rate how you think my character will hold up?
#1 - The Human
Human
just wondering is trhe shiba protector a feat or a class and where can i find it
(which book ) thanks for any input, or if its a feat can u plz write it up so i may read it ...
hi first time poster here
just wondering is trhe shiba protector a feat or a class and where can i find it
(which book ) thanks for any input, or if its a feat can u plz write it up so i may read it ...
It is a class in the back of Oriental Adventures, in the clans section. It is a clan specific PrC, but I can't remember for which clan off the top of my head...
And it lets a character add his highest ability mod to basically any d20 roll a number of times per day equal to his highest ability mod.
The Answer
With Karmic Strike/Double Hit/Mage Slayer and a Retributive Amulet (slotted as a cloak), an opponent who melees with you is in a no win situation. If they miss, they're ineffective. Each time they hit, the real trouble begins. First, they take half the damage from their own attack (Retributive Cloak), and the Answer takes half. Then, the Answer hits back...twice. Since both his "answering" weapons have Wrathful Healing and he's attacking at his full attack bonus each strike (+27 w. flurry active), trading blows is pointless.
Notable Features:
1. A "+22" Weapon on one hand (and +15 on the other), achieved through Necklaces of Natural Attacks (SS), Greater Magic Weapon/Greater Magic Fang, Gauntlets of the Talon, and Kensai abilities.
2. Karmic Strike/Double Hit means that in a full-round melee, you get 7+2X attacks and they get X (if they hit you on each attack). At a Dex Mod +9, that's a max 18 extra attacks (25 total!). Retributive Amulet has you taking 1/2 damage from all melee attacks. With Wrathful Healing and 3-4 attacks to their one, it will be hard for them to do much lasting damage.
Build Note: Kensai+Pious Templar of Bahaumat has tricky reqs. Bahaumat's favored weapons are "bite" and "heavy pick" and PT requires Wpn. Focus in the deity's favored weapon. You have to have Wpn. Focus with the Kensai's Signature Weapon. Two options: ask your DM to substitute "natural weapons" for "bite," or take Wpn. Focus (Heavy Pick). Even if you have to Weapon Focus twice, Mettle at lvl 1 makes Pious Templar worth it (and you're taking True Believer anyway to use the Gauntlets).
If you are allowed to take Wpn. Focus (Natural), then PT 4 is an option (for Wpn. Spec and another Fighter feat). If the ruling is that you have to take two WFs, Templar 4 is no longer useful (Wpn. Spec won't work). I'd recommend one more level of Fighter and a couple of levels of Shou Disciple (which ups the damage die).
The Answer: Monk of Bahaumat 4/Fighter /Psychic Warrior 2/Kensai 8/Shou Disciple 3/Pious Templar 1
32 PB: S 13 D 16 C 14 I 13 W 14 C 8
Race: Human
Align: LG
Stat Boosts: Dex
Lvl 20 Stats: S 13 D 22 C 18 I 13 W 14 C 8
Mod: S 19 D 28 C 24 I 13 W 20 C 8
Progression:
1 Monk (Dodge) (Combat Expertise) (Imp. Unarmed Strike) (Stunning Fist) [Flurry of Blows]
2 M (Combat Reflexes) [Evasion]
3 M [+2 vs. enchantments] (Wpn. Finesse)
4 M [Ki Strike Magic]
5 F (Mage Slayer)
6 F (Wpn. Focus - Unarmed) (True Believer)
7 Kensai [Enhance w. +1]
8 K [Power Surge]
9 K (TWF)
10 K [Enhance w. Wrathful Healing]
11 Psychic Warrior (Karmic Strike)
12 PW (Double Hit) (ITWF)
13 K [Bonus to Face skills]
14 K [Swap Ref for Concentrate] [Enhance w. Holy]
15 Shou Disciple (Imp. Natural Attack)
16 SD (Wpn. Focus - H. Pick or Extra Feat Slot)
17 Pious Templar [Mettle]
18 K
19 K (Imp. Disarm) [Enhance w. Wounding]
20 SD
Totals:
-Avg. HP: 8+5d8+14d10+140=Avg. 244.5
-BAB 16; Std. Att. +31 (BAB+Dex+GMW+Wpn. Focus); ITWF Speed Flurry 27/27/27/22/22/17/12. Extra bonuses to Strike: (+1 luck, Divine Favor, 1 min, 1-2/day), (+1 morale, Bless, PT 1, 1 min)
-Dmg: 3d8+8+2d6 (vs. Evil)+1 Con; Crit. 19-20. Extra bonuses to Damage; Expansion (+1d8+1 or 3d8+2), (+1 luck, Divine Favor, 1 min, 1-2/day); Kensai (+2 competance, 4-5 day, 4 rounds).
-Base Saves: 15/9/13; Mod. Saves: 27/23/23; Evasion vs. Fort, Ref, Will; Can swap Ref for Concentration.
-AC: 10+9(Dex)+5(Wis)+6(Armor)+4(Def)+2 (Sacred)+2(Monk)+1 (Nat. Armor) (+2 Dodge) = 37 (39). Touch 30/32. Extra: Force Screen (PsyWar 1, +4 shield, 2 min)
Psy Warrior Powers: Expansion, Force Screen
Templar Spells (3/day): Divine Favor, Bless, Restoration (Lesser)
Kensai Fists:
+1 Enhancement
Wrathful Healing +3
Wounding +2
Holy +2
Equipment:
-Necklace of Natural Attacks (one fist) (+1 Enhancement, +2 Mettaline, , +3 Speed) (72,600, SS)
-Slotless NoNA (two fists) (+1 Enhancement, +1 Impact) (32,600)
-Slotless NoNA (one fist) (+1 Enhancement, +1 Morphing) (16,600)
-Bracers of Armor +6 (36,000)
-Slotless BoA +1 (+4 Soulfire) (50,000)
-Slotless BoA +1 (+1 Mod Fortification) (32,000)
-Slotless Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (4,000)
-Belt of Giant Str., Health +6, +Monk’s Belt, +5 monk levels to unarmed dmg, AC (127,500)
-Headband of Wisdom +6 (36,000)
-Boots of Dexterity +6 (36,000)
-Cloak of Retribution (56,000; Retributive Amulet slotted as a cloak, BoED)
-Vest of Resistance +5 (25,000)
-Ring of Prot +4 (32,000)
-Ring of Feather Falling, Striding and Springing (10,050)
-Blindfold of True Darkness (A&EG) (9,000)
-Winged Mask (13,000, MoF)
-Tome of Con +4 (110,000)
-Tome of Dex +1 (27,500)
-Gauntlets of the Talon (20,000, CD) +5 lvls Monk dmg, AC, Ki Strike [giving Lawful]; Ghost Touch (need True Believer, 7 HD)
-Greater Magic Fang +5, Permanent (12,000)
Total: 757,850
just wondering is trhe shiba protector a feat or a class and where can i find it
(which book ) thanks for any input, or if its a feat can u plz write it up so i may read it ...
hi first time poster here
just wondering is trhe shiba protector a feat or a class and where can i find it
(which book ) thanks for any input, or if its a feat can u plz write it up so i may read it ...
Scroll up...
hi first time poster here
just wondering is trhe shiba protector a feat or a class and where can i find it
(which book ) thanks for any input, or if its a feat can u plz write it up so i may read it ...
It is a prestige class on page 222 of the Oriental Adventures book. You must be a human of the Phoenix clan.
Mean_Liar, I saw a reference a few pages back re: a Golden Gauntlet boosting unarmed damage. I cannot find more than a couple refs to it online here, and I'm looking through lotsa books.
Someone want to tell me where it is, and what it really does ???
Multiclassing is a delicate subject with Monks. First, there's the obvious PHB restrictions on Monk multiclassing (which is removed in OA). Second, the three best Monk abilities (Stun Attack, Immunity to Poison, and Spell Resistance) depend on class level, so unless you're playing with OA (and therefore the Stun variants) any non-Monk level lessens or slows your access to these key class features.
mean_liar -- I'm sure there's lots of stuff in the thread intro that needs editing, but this one caught my eye. Stun Attack is less dependent on monk level than it used to be (DC is now based on character level rather than monk level, anyway; uses per day is still impacted by ratio of monk-to-non-monk levels, though). Immunity to Poison - not sure this was ever based on class level, but I don't see any correlation to class level now, other than the level required to obtain the ability in the first place. And the Stun Variants are also no longer based on monk levels, either.
Hi Folks,
Mean_Liar, I saw a reference a few pages back re: a Golden Gauntlet boosting unarmed damage. I cannot find more than a couple refs to it online here, and I'm looking through lotsa books.
Someone want to tell me where it is, and what it really does ???
I believe the "Gold" gauntlet is a heavy weapon that you can find in the Magic of Faerun. Heavy weapons are exotic and deal damage 1 size catagory higher...though not all DM's approve of this method. Gauntlets deal unarmed damage, though you are considered both armed and deal regular damage. In the hands of a monk it would be a step up. I.e. (remember to run this by your DM as mine had a fit when I even suggested it) Improved Natural Attack, Enlarge person, and a heavy gauntlet...would boost your unarmed attack damage from medium -> large -> huge -> you get the picture.
Hope that helps...ironically I asked the same question back in the mix.
Thanks
Thanks
Oh, and a way to get your fists to do slashing damage.
Oh, and a way to get your fists to do slashing damage.
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries from Draconomicon. IIRC level 2 ability makes unarmed strikes slashing.
Is there anyway to get unarmed attacks to be +6, making them epic? Besides using the epic feat improved ki strike, which doesn't add any attack bonus, only makes them epic for damage reduction?
Is there anyway to get unarmed attacks to be +6, making them epic? Besides using the epic feat improved ki strike, which doesn't add any attack bonus, only makes them epic for damage reduction?
One could easily argue that an 11th (epic) level Kensai should be able to have a +6 enhancement bonus to their weapon. 'course, you have to pay XP for that.
There are no spells below 10th that give you more than a +5 bonus, so if you went the spell/item route (Amulet of Mighty Fists +6, say), it would likely require an epic spell to pull off, or at least a much higher level version of Greater Magic Fang.
Why not just take Epic Ki Strike, and something like Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed, if you really want the extra +1? Same net effect. Granted, two epic feats, but they'll even work in an A.M.S, which if you're getting into epic, you're going to be seeing more often. ;)
Is there anyway to get unarmed attacks to be +6, making them epic? Besides using the epic feat improved ki strike, which doesn't add any attack bonus, only makes them epic for damage reduction?
Yeah, if your DM will let a 6th level Fiend of Possession possess your hands as if they were a weapon. :D
If you can get your unarmed strike to count as a slashing weapon, you could also use the Bladebane spell to increase the enhancement bonus temporarily vs. a particular type of creature. Bladebane is in the Unapproachable East book, best I remember (don't have books with me).
(I punch the orc, and his head is sliced off)
Suppose you've got a 15th level monk / 5th level Kensai (or 15th level monk with a +5 Amulet of Natural Attack [allows you to enchant your natural weapons / unarmed attacks]).
What would be some examples of optimal choices for the enchantments? +1 is the minmal, leaving +4 left to allocate.
Kensai: +1 Enhancement, +9 bonuses (max).
Greater Magic Fang/Greater Magic Weapon: +5 Enhancement
Final weapon: +5 Enhancement, with +18 special abilities.
Necklace of Natural Attacks (SS): +1 Enhancement, +9 bonuses (max).
That's the one I meant, if it's different than Amulet of Natural Attacks (I thought they were the same?). Either way, DM's not allowing anything in SS for any character that does not have racial hit dice -- most specifically that Necklace. That's why I posed it primarily as a 5-level Kensai thing. Same net result as a +5 Necklace, for demonstrative purposes.
Kensai: +1 Enhancement, +9 bonuses (max).
Greater Magic Fang/Greater Magic Weapon: +5 Enhancement
Final weapon: +5 Enhancement, with +18 special abilities.
Yep, plenty of ways of min/maxing that. I'm specifically looking for optimal use of +5 though (+1 enhancement, +4 bonuses).
+1 Ghost Touch (+1) Morphing (+1; Underdark?) Metalline (+2; Underdark?) is an interesting and unconventional choice if you're trying to get through DR. Monk fists count as light weapons, and Morphing changes any Light weapon into any other Light weapon...so your fist can become a kama, or a nunchuck. You will probably lose your Monk damage (don't think that carried over into 3.5) but you'll keep your flurry. Metalline can then be used to give you an metal DR penetration. If you've got one more, Sure-Striking (+1) lets you beat any alignment DR.
As far as a straight +6 to hit and damage solely due to enhancement bonuses, I don't think its possible as a pre-epic weapon.
I think the most heinous stacking that I can imagine (to build on ck2001wendt's example) is a Kensai using his Kensai abilities with his unarmed strikes, while wielding a (Golden) Gauntlet and using a Necklace of Natural Attacks. +28 effective bonuses to distribute, I think at best, and pricey to boot, but still funny.
I have decided to go half dragon template class/half human monk with VoP, possibly from OA. (by the way, I didn't find combat insight in BoED?) Template gives +8 str, +2 con/cha/int and bite/claw/claw attack. In v3.5 states that the unarmed attack can be any body part. is it possibly to flurry and then bite,claw,claw giving you 5 attacks? if so, the answer to this would be to make a hulking-damage dealing type of character.
If this was yours, what would you do?? If you were to take this halfdragon, monk, VoP in another direction (and not the cylindrical filing cabinet), what would it be.
I have decided to go half dragon template class/half human monk with VoP, possibly from OA. (by the way, I didn't find combat insight in BoED?) Template gives +8 str, +2 con/cha/int and bite/claw/claw attack. In v3.5 states that the unarmed attack can be any body part. is it possibly to flurry and then bite,claw,claw giving you 5 attacks? if so, the answer to this would be to make a hulking-damage dealing type of character.
Yep, this is clarified in the FAQ. With any creature that has natural weapons, and can "ordinarily" use a manufactured weapon, you can get a manuf. sequence on top of the natural sequence. ALL of your natural weapons attack as secondary weapons, though -- which means -5 -- and they do natural weapon damage (not the monk damage). So, you'd get your flurry at whatever your flurry bonus is, doing whatever your unarmed damage is plus your strength bonus. Then you'd get claw/claw/bite at -5/-5/-5, d4/d4/d6 (plus half your strength bonus on each).
This is discussed at length elsewhere in this thread. You'll lose claw attacks if your hands are occupied.
If this was yours, what would you do?? If you were to take this halfdragon, monk, VoP in another direction (and not the cylindrical filing cabinet), what would it be.
I looked at it as a possibility for the rewrite of my half-dragon monk (currently ECL 23). The main problem with VoP is that it gets really weak once you get into epic levels, so I ditched it quickly. However, it's got lots of merit.
...With any creature that has natural weapons, and can "ordinarily" use a manufactured weapon, you can get a manuf. sequence on top of the natural sequence. ALL of your natural weapons attack as secondary weapons, though -- which means -5 -- and they do natural weapon damage (not the monk damage). So, you'd get your flurry...
Except when making a flurry you can only use Monk Weapons. Natural weapons aren't Monk Weapons.
So you can make a normal attack routine + natural attacks, sans Flurry. Or you can make a Flurry attack routine. But not both.
If there is a way to flurry with all weapons (might work with Shou disciple), then you're gold.
Mean_Liar, this is the second time I've seen you reference this golden gauntlet... where is it ? What is it ? What does it do ? And if it's a gauntlet (as the name suggests) why would it stack with a monks unarmed damage ?
First, its a flagrant abuse of the rules. But its a pleasing abuse.
From the SRD, Gauntlet weapon entry: "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."
So, improved unarmed damage would seem to translate through a gauntlet.
Second, its a Heavy weapon. Heavy is a weapon property described in Magic of Faerun. Using a Heavy weapon at its original size category requires a EWP (otherwise you have to wield it as a heavier weapon, light -> one handed -> two handed), and essentially increases the damage of your attack by a size category.
To Flurry with this weapon, you have to have at least 3 levels of Shou Disciple with the EWP or 5 levels without.
An alternative weapon to consider is the Boot Blade, from the FRCS. This weapon explicitly allows you to transfer monk damage through it, and by being a non-hand-related weapon, allows you to maintain use of a guisarme. If a DM gives you sass about the gauntlet and you have the FRCS, you can use the Boot Blade without much hassle.
Except when making a flurry you can only use Monk Weapons. Natural weapons aren't Monk Weapons.
So you can make a normal attack routine + natural attacks, sans Flurry. Or you can make a Flurry attack routine. But not both.
Incorrect. The FAQ is pretty clear about this. You cannot use a claw attack as part of your flurry, but the natural attack sequence is not part of your flurry -- it's separate from your flurry. The ruling you're maybe thinking of regards denying claws, bite, tail, slam, wing, or .. I dunno, tentacle attacks, as part your flurry of blows.
Though this is like the 3rd time we've addressed this in this thread, I'll reiterate anyway -- heck, the more times it's mentioned, the easier it is to search for, right? ;)
The FAQ clearly states:
"You can't use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. There are only six of the latter included in the Player's Handbook (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can't use it along with a flurry."
When they say 'along with', they mean 'as part of', not 'following'. EDIT: This was a subtle point of much debate between me and mean_liar, and I'll grant that they were kind of ambiguous in that particular response--it really could be interpreted either way. But a FAQ release or two after that discussion, they cleared it up. /EDIT On the following page (page 6 of the 01282005 FAQ), it goes on answering another question to elaborate:
"... The monk can't use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he may make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry."
Pretty straight-forward. They go on to cite an example of a 8th level centaur monk. Flurry is +8/+8/+3, plus two hooves at +1/+1. There's really not much room for other interpretations.
EDIT: BTW - I recently received my Beyond Monks book. Pretty snazzy. I think they did a good job of (a) nipping potential rules-raping loopholes in the bud (though I'm sure they left some behind), and (b) giving LOTS of good examples of every class, special ability, and even some feats, demonstrating what it is they're trying to define. /EDIT
They go on to cite an example of a 8th level centaur monk. Flurry is +8/+8/+3, plus two hooves at +1/+1. There's really not much room for other interpretations.
Of course, that part of the FAQ is grotesquely mistaken. At least, in terms of the attack bonuses. First off, flurry penalties are reduced by 1 thanks to the 5th level of monk. Second, the FAQ calculates the penalties on the secondary natural attacks off the flurry attack bonus, as opposed to the BAB of the character.
The correct bonuses should be:
+9/+9/+4 for the flurry (BAB +10 -1 flurry penalty) and +4/+4 for the hooves (BAB +10 -1 flurry penalty -5 secondary attack penalty).
Other than that, the idea was grasped quite nicely. Natural attacks are in addition to the normal iterative attack sequence in a full-attack. In fact, it's one of the main perks of the grapple monkey (or should I say bear?) in my sig.
Natural weapons are treated as natural weapons. They get natural weapon progression (0 primary, -5 on all secondary). They get natural weapon damage (claws are 1d4 generally, bites 1d6, etc, though this is adjustable by INA and size and whatnot).
Now, flurry doesn't really complicate matters. Think of it as an enhancement to the manufactuered weapon progression, like Speed or Haste (but it's not a haste effect, just a nifty ability). Clearly it would not apply at all to the natural weapons.
When you combine the unarmed attack sequence and the claw sequence, it might seem a little confusing. Replace 'unarmed attack sequence' with 'club', and it might make more sense. If I have a club in one claw, and nothing in my other claw, I ought to be able to smack you wtih my club and rake you with my claw, right? Sure. Okay, now replace 'club' with 'unarmed'. Viola. Since they're both treated as manufactered weapons (sequence, damage, etc), there's no difference.
With that said, now I'll complicate matters. Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, feats from the Draconomicon, sorta tweak the rules on natural weapon sequences. They allow you to take an extra attack at -5 (Rapidstrike), or two to four extra attacks at -5/-10/etc. So, a dragon with a high enough non-epic BAB could feasibly do claw/claw/claw/claw/claw/claw at bonuses of -5/-5/-5/-10/-15/-20 (look familiar?).
Say you're playing a 1/2 dragon monk, and your BAB is, oh, I dunno, +16 somehow (there's lots of ways--assume you also have 2d10 base damage, with size modifications as you see fit). Your base full attack sequence would look like this:
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 unarmed (2d10+str), and +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 claws (1d4+str), and +11 bite (1d6+1/2str). Yes, boys and girls, that's a whopping three extra attacks for 2 feats (though the second one has steep prerequisites, not the least of which is a BAB of +15 and a type of aberration, dragon (1/2 dragon gets this!), elemental, magical beast, or plant). You might be able to argue a 12th attack at -4, since the feat doesn't say anything about a minimum bonus, only a maximum number of attacks, but you're probably just increasing the odds of you fumbling at that point. And a DM would be in his right to cut it off at +1, same as regular attacks.
Now, the extra attacks are only claw attacks, and at pretty significant minuses and low base damage (comparatively). But, if you've got a maxed out GMF up (or AMF), that bonus should apply to your claw attacks as well. C'mon, it's Greater Magic Fang, designed for natural weapons. So that should help your damage somewhat (another +15 possible just from that spell).
Take care, though -- with this setup, you'll be fumbling every other round. Hope your DM doesn't add extra spice to such events.
--Rooth
+15/+15/+15/+10/+5/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13
Actually, I have a better idea for the gatling-gun thri-kreen:
Thri-Kreen Monk 12 / War Mind 4 (ECL 20)
Why? Being able to manifest Psionic Lion's Charge. That, plus Shock Trooper and Leap Attack (which always succeeds, due to a +30 racial bonus on jump checs) means that all 10 of your attacks gain +30 damage for a -15 sacrifice to AC. And that also means your attacks get a +2 bonus to hit from the charge.
Heh, with an 80 ft land speed and +30 racial bonus on jump checks (total of +50!), who needs a ranged weapon? The Thri-Kreen monk merely leaps into action, and karate chops everything into mush.
Of course, that part of the FAQ is grotesquely mistaken. At least, in terms of the attack bonuses.
Y'know, I thought that looked a little funky, but I just attributed "8th level centaur monk" to being a 4th level centaur, 4th level monk, or something funky like that. Thanks for the clarification -- did you send it into the sage or support? Would be nice for them to fix the FAQ next time (though if they fix it the same way they 'fixed' some of the other stuff last release, I don't want to see it! ;) -- take for example the new math on page 7: "How many hit dice does my 1st level pixie rogue have?" "... your pixie would have 1 Hit Dice: one from his race, and one from his class level.")
PS - nice monkeybear.
Why? Being able to manifest Psionic Lion's Charge.
Sweet! If your DM is allowing a thri-kreen monk, he oughtta allow mean_liar's Lion's Charge Ring, for 12k (see discussion on previous page or two of this thread). ;)
But hey, why bother with War Mind, when you can go with Fist of Zuoken. More powers, more power points, and monk speed and whatnot. Woot! Pump that 80 to 90, pump your damage, and raise your AC by 1 (though with -15, you're gonna get hit, sorry ;)). Y'never know when that 10' of distance might make a difference.
Oh, wait, that's right - War Mind doesn't require a dumb feat to enter. Stupid FoZ writeup. Why does War Mind only require power points, whereas FoZ requires that you have the Wild Talent feat? Whose brilliant idea was that?? *grumble* At least have the class pump the benefit of Wild Talent with class levels, or something. Sheesh.
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 unarmed (2d10+str), and +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 claws (1d4+str), and +11 bite (1d6+1/2str). Yes, boys and girls, that's a whopping three extra attacks for 2 feats (though the second one has steep prerequisites, not the least of which is a BAB of +15 and a type of aberration, dragon (1/2 dragon gets this!), elemental, magical beast, or plant). You might be able to argue a 12th attack at -4, since the feat doesn't say anything about a minimum bonus, only a maximum number of attacks, but you're probably just increasing the odds of you fumbling at that point. And a DM would be in his right to cut it off at +1, same as regular attacks.
You're almost on the money on this one.
First off, you can and do get that extra attack at a -4 "bonus". If you want an example of negative attack bonuses, just look at a level 1 Monk's flurry. -2/-2.
Anyway, the best way to optimize on this would be to take Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack. Assuming the character has a BAB of +16 and the Greater Flurry ability, this is what his attack sequence should look like, in a full-attack:
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 (flurry of unarmed strikes; receives Str to bonus damage) and +16/+16/+11/+6/+1/-4 (improved rapidstrike secondary claws; receives 1/2 Str to bonus damage) and +16 (secondary bite; receives 1/2 Str to bonus damage). Total attacks: 13
Note that you don't receive any extra claw attacks at full BAB (you need to read I. Rapidstrike again), but you do get 4 extra claw attacks, each with a cumulative -5 penalty on attack rolls.
Not bad. Unfortunately, it cannot be achieved by ECL 20 on account of the maximum BAB attainable at level 17 with Greater Flurry is +14. This means 5 attacks in the flurry of blows, and no Improved Rapidstrike (this requires BAB +15). This cuts down the number of attacks by 4, down to 9.
This said, I think our gatling-gun remains the Thri-Kreen, with 10 attacks as early as ECL 14 (Thri-Kreen Monk 12).
In the previous example, +16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1 - all at 2d10. And 3 more natural weapon attacks still at 11/11/11. Heck, if you've got room, take the pair of feats again for your pair of claws. Four feats + 16 BAB + monk levels gets you +16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1 unarmed, +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 claw, +11 bite. 14 attacks. Can we get INA, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, and Deft Opportunist in there? 9 feats total. Tough to do, especially if you have 3 levels soaked in 1/2 dragon. But jeez, talk about a buzz saw... If you can work access to double-expand in there (stupid item, or 7 levels of FoZ), you're doing serious damage, even with the natural weapons. Grrrrrowl!
You're almost on the money on this one.
Knew someone would catch me. ;)
First off, you can and do get that extra attack at a -4 "bonus". If you want an example of negative attack bonuses, just look at a level 1 Monk's flurry. -2/-2.
There's a big difference between the progressive minues from the melee attack sequence and the negatives due to monk's flurry (or TWF, or attacking while prone, or tons of other ways of getting negative modifiers). Otherwise, that first level monk could attack forever: -2/-2/-7/-12/-17/-22/...... heck, if you need a 20 to hit anyway, might as well just keep rolling, right? ;)
The Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike feats don't really call the extra attacks a progression. Their only relationship to the regular sequence of attacks is that the -5 progressive bonus is the same size as that for regular attacks. All I'm saying is that you could argue that you do indeed get the extra attack, but your DM could pull the "progressive attack sequences do not progress lower than +1" argument, and that would be difficult to contest.
Anyway, the best way to optimize on this would be to take Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack.
Oh, of course. Forgot about those. They don't add any more attacks, but they sure improve the odds of hitting with the claws and bites.
Note that you don't receive any extra claw attacks at full BAB (you need to read I. Rapidstrike again)
I listed them at +11 (BAB-5), not +16 (full BAB). I read the feat as "Your first extra attack is at -5 [from your BAB]", not "Your first extra attack is at [an additional] -5 [from your previous attack]". Occam's Razor?
Not bad. Unfortunately, it cannot be achieved by ECL 20 on account of the maximum BAB attainable at level 17 with Greater Flurry is +14. This means 5 attacks in the flurry of blows, and no Improved Rapidstrike (this requires BAB +15). This cuts down the number of attacks by 4, down to 9.
Aww, don't spoil the fun!
How about we stop at 8th. 3 in 1/2 dragon, leaving 9 levels of fighter. That's +15. Hmm, though you wouldn't get another feat 'til CL 18 (ECL 21). Doh. Okay, 4th level monk, 13th level fighter. But wait, might not be worth it to give up the unarmed damage and suffer -2 to all attacks just to get two extra attacks. Six? +14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1 (6, flurry, -2 penalty), +9/+9/+4/-1/-6/-11 (6, your ruling, claws), +9 (1, bite). Total: 13 attacks, fairly low damage (9 levels of monk with monk's belt, or depending on how you rule Use Magic Device....)This said, I think our gatling-gun remains the Thri-Kreen, with 10 attacks as early as ECL 14 (Thri-Kreen Monk 12).
Yep, that's probably better. If more freaky. ;) Even if you decide to apply Rapidstrike to a monk's unarmed attack (super cheese), both the Thri-Kreen and the 1/2 dragon could benefit from that to the same degree, so the T-K would still win, in number of attacks, looks like.
PS - who else thinks there should be a monk version of the Practiced Spellcaster feat?
Disciplined Master [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: 4th level monk.
Benefits: your monk level is treated as up to 4 levels higher for purposes of class abilities that are based off your monk level, but your total monk levels can be no more than your hit dice.
Normal: many of your abilities quickly become useless when you multiclass, even into monk prestige classes. You see, the game designers basically only care about magic spells and caster levels, so you really don't want to play a monk anyway.
Vote now! (wish I could do surveys)
--Rooth, going to bed, dangit
Also, in which book is the combat insight, i wasn't able to find it in BoED?
Could a High Monk of Bahamut further enhance a set of Gauntlets of the Talon (CD, pg. 97)? They already give the Ghost Touch property.
So:
Necklace of Nat Attacks: +1, +9
Kensai: +1, +9
GMW: +5
Enhanced Gauntlets of the Talon: +1, +9 (one of which must be Ghost Touch).
Total Weapon: +32 (!)
Gauntlets of the Talon also work as a Monk's Belt and give a bonus to Grapple checks, which gives them a little bit of an edge over Heavy Gauntlets.
Ok... where would i be able to read where additional attacks (ie claw/claw/bite) takes at -5/-5/-5 + 1/2 str for damage. i'm sure its somewhere, just don't know.
If the FAQ is insufficient source material, you can look at the Natural Weapon definition in the MM glossary (page 312). It does not talk about the 1/2 strength business, but on page 6 of the MM, bottom left paragraph under "Full Attack", it explains it. "Secondary attacks add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus..."
Now, you're going to ask "So why are my claws secondary attacks when combined with flurry?" Because your flurry becomes your "primary weapon". All natural attacks you make are thus treated as secondary weapons. I'm not sure where that's specified - I couldn't find it in the MM, but the FAQ is pretty clear about it.
Also, in which book is the combat insight, i wasn't able to find it in BoED?
I couldn't find it there, either. I seem to recall that the Duelist (DMG) has it as a class ability, and Perfected One (Dragon Mag, 297) has something with the same name (slightly different effect - uses wisdom, adds to damage instead of AC). But that's all I've found, so far.
--Rooth
Necklace of Nat Attacks: +1, +9
Kensai: +1, +9
GMW: +5
Enhanced Gauntlets of the Talon: +1, +9 (one of which must be Ghost Touch).
Wouldn't the gauntlets cancel the Kensai ability and/or the amulet? I mean, this whole line of thinking is like putting a +1/+9 magical sheath on a Holy Avenger, and smacking people with it for extra bonuses. Or like using three magical swords duct-taped together. Isn't it?
Wouldn't the gauntlets cancel the Kensai ability and/or the amulet? I mean, this whole line of thinking is like putting a +1/+9 magical sheath on a Holy Avenger, and smacking people with it for extra bonuses. Or like using three magical swords duct-taped together. Isn't it?
Nope...the whole line of thinking is like putting Greater Magic Weapon +5 on a +1 Sword with +9 enhancements. Everything overlaps, and nothing stacks...providing you with a +5 weapon with +9 enchancements.
So:
A Kensai's enchanted fists are their primary weapon, and they'll always get those bonuses no matter what.
Gauntlets of the Talon and the Necklace of Natural Attacks modify, but do not replace, a Kensai's Fists. The Gauntlets are basically a Monk's Belt/Magical Heavy gauntlet in weapon form. They boost a Monk's unarmed strike ability, and only supercede the unarmed attack of a non-Monk.
The Necklace is like a standard Magic Armor/Magic Shield/Modified Bracers of Armor combo. The Armor and Shield bonuses stack but the Bracer's Armor bonus doesn't, and all the special abilities overlap but do not stack.
Finally, Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang overlays the whole thing.
In the end, you have a very expensive, very effective superweapon. To modify both fists with the Necklace is 400,000, and the Gauntlet's would be another 220,000 if you allow them to be boosted (20,000 otherwise).
Then there's those heavy gauntlets--will have to check to see if that'll be allowed.Can you be a warforged?
I dunno. Where is that, again? It's a Greyhawk campaign, btw, and while a few things from other realms are allowed in it, they're mostly like weapon enhancements or certain items or feats. Generic stuff, not world-flavor tuff. Classes and feats that are regional are definitely out (e.g., pretty much all of Unapproachable East).
EDIT: found a reference. Eberron-specific races are definitely not an option for me. Don't get me wrong, these are great min/max combo potential things, and really that's what this thread is all about. I just wish I could take advantage of even half the stuff that shows up on this thread. ;)
Anyway, point is that the 1/2 dragon monk could certainly make use of something like this. Add in Multiattack/Imp.Multiattack, and that nifty Necklace you guys get to use, and you're in business. I'm guessing Improved Rapidstrike would look something like -5/-5, -10/-10, -15/-15, then possibly -20/-20 and even -25/-25 (though what conditions would prevent the last two attacks, I'm not sure, and the feat isn't clear -- I could find no printed examples of a dragon with Improved Rapidstrike).
BTW, Improved Rapidstrike + Rend has some nasty possibilities, since you could feasibly rend multiple times in a full attack.
But this is starting to stray quite a bit from the min/maxed monk. Unless it's a dragon-type monk. ;)
--Rooth
With the rapidstrike featchain you can get iterative unarmed strikes AND iterative natural attacks on a full attack ... so this is not really off topic for this thread.
I'm planing to play a monk in a upcoming campaign andI'm thinking of using the Half-Giant:
• +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Dexterity: Half-giants are tough and strong, but not too nimble.
• Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Half-giant base land speed is 30 feet.
• Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures.
• Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
• Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
• Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—stomp. Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DC is Charisma-based.
• Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Ignan.
• Favored Class: Psychic warrior.
• Level Adjustment: +1.
1.Does powerful built increase unarmed damage?
2.With 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12 and racial adjustment my stats
Str:20
Dex:14
Con:16
Int:12
Wis:16
Cha:14
This any good?
3.Is this race any good for a VoP monk?
One great way to get Rapidstrike is the Ritual of Association (56,000 GP, and some XP, Savage Species). The "spirit" of the text implies that you can only pick up a sub-type (gnoll, etc.), but the "letter" of the text allows you to pick up a type (aberration).
• Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
1.Does powerful built increase unarmed damage?
I don't see why it would. If a half-giant picks up a dagger and stabs you with it, you still take 1d4. Why would hitting you with his fist be any more damage? If the half-giant hits you with .. what, a Large dagger? I guess a dagger sized for a large creature (which would count as a one-handed weapon instead of a light weapon?), he'd do more damage. But the same would happen if a medium-sized human did the same thing. The only difference is that the medium-sized human takes a penalty to hit, but the half-giant does not.
Nothing about Powerful Build suggests that he would do more damage with a given weapon. He is treated as being 'large', but only for the conditions listed, none of which speak to melee damage at all.
It [rapidstrike] should work, but you need to have more than one set of natural weapons (that trips up most claw fighters).
Hmm. "2 slam attacks" don't count as a pair of natural weapons, unless you're slamming with two appendages simultaneously. If you're using one, but attacking twice with it, that doesn't count.
Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike require that you have a pair of natural weapons, and they only apply to one pair. For dragons, that's claws OR wings, but not both (you have to take the featset again if you want both).
--Rooth
I don't see why it would. If a half-giant picks up a dagger and stabs you with it, you still take 1d4. Why would hitting you with his fist be any more damage? If the half-giant hits you with .. what, a Large dagger? I guess a dagger sized for a large creature (which would count as a one-handed weapon instead of a light weapon?), he'd do more damage. But the same would happen if a medium-sized human did the same thing. The only difference is that the medium-sized human takes a penalty to hit, but the half-giant does not.
From the logic perspective, think of stabbing somebody with a toothpick vs. punching them vs. using a dagger.
From a rules perspective, I'm pretty sure you're right.
Any thoughts on the sizing special ability from complete adventurer? If you could apply it to a monks unarmed attacks, which are pretty much his entire body right, would this mean in effect he can change his body to any size?
Hmm, well, it does use enlarge person and reduce person. The problem I have with it that it says "any size category". Can you make +1 Sizing ... longsword, say, become Colossal+ at will? If that's how it works, then yes, it would do the same for a monk (though horribly broken, I think -- two levels of Kensai to get 12d8 points of damage or whatever? Yeah, like your DM would allow that).
I think the intent of this ability is to resize to fit the wearer/wielder when they change size. So a dagger always sizes to be a light weapon, based on the size of its wielder. By extension, a monk with sizing fists would have fists that matched their size. Which is not very useful for a monk, since that's always the case. ;) Well, unless you have Warshaper.
--Rooth
Hmm, well, it does use enlarge person and reduce person. The problem I have with it that it says "any size category". Can you make +1 Sizing ... longsword, say, become Colossal+ at will? If that's how it works, then yes, it would do the same for a monk (though horribly broken, I think -- two levels of Kensai to get 12d8 points of damage or whatever? Yeah, like your DM would allow that).
I think the intent of this ability is to resize to fit the wearer/wielder when they change size. So a dagger always sizes to be a light weapon, based on the size of its wielder. By extension, a monk with sizing fists would have fists that matched their size. Which is not very useful for a monk, since that's always the case. ;) Well, unless you have Warshaper.
--Rooth
Yeah, I figure the same thing, I wonder if the designers thought of things like this when they came up with it.
Maybe just have it resize your fist or foot or something, and then take the increased damage and penalty to hit. Pancake things a lot weaker than you with a giant foot.
Maybe just have it resize your fist or foot or something, and then take the increased damage and penalty to hit. Pancake things a lot weaker than you with a giant foot.
I can't help but picture John Merrick in the Elephant Man movie. "I am not an animal!" *squash!* "Take that, judgemental badguy!"
So sizing would indeed just increase the size of your fists. Take a couple levels of Warshaper, and you have a pretty interesting visual.
I would house-rule it to allow the Necklace to apply to all natural attacks of the same type (fists, feet, etc.) but as a monk you're still stuck.
There's nothing that indicates what you have to attack with as a monk. if you want to attack over and over with the same fist, you can. Sizing as a way to increase your size? No. It woudl make your hands, feet ,and head colossal, but nothing else.
It should work, but you need to have more than one set of natural weapons (that trips up most claw fighters).
It just says "one or more pairs". 2 claws are sufficient, otherwise the king of smack wouldnt work.
I don't mean to offend, but you don't seem to understand what an Unarmed Strike is. And what an Unarmed Strike is has been explained abot a million times on this thread alone. There is no such weapon as a "fist," natural or otherwise. An "Unarmed strike" is a single manufactured weapon. A character with the Improved unarmed strike feat only ever owns 1 unarmed strike.
Certain weapons are treated as unarmed strikes, or deal unarmed strike damage, but they aren't Unarmed Strikes.
An example of that would be the Gauntlet.
The Improved Unarmed Strike, however, has some unique characteristics which may be confusing you (and have certainly confused some game designers):
1) They can be enhanced as natural weapons. This doesn't mean that they are natural weapons.
2) They can be delivered with any part of a monk's body. Yes, any part. This is how you get "Ultimate Nosehair Fist" or "Iron Monkey" techniques.
OK, so what does this mean for a Kensai who enhances his "Unarmed Strike"?
It does not mean, as the sample character erroniously describes, that he inhances both of his "fists" as natural weapons. Fists may be natural weapons, I don't know. I've never seen them in any creature's stat block.
What a Monk/Kensai does is enhance his only unarmed strike, either as a natural or manufactured weapon (because it can be enhanced as either). And then he can Unarmed strike you with his Flaming nosehairs or Metaline monkey if he damn' well pleases. Or with his fists.
ck2001wendt
What a Monk/Kensai does is enhance his only unarmed strike, either as a natural or manufactured weapon (because it can be enhanced as either). And then he can Unarmed strike you with his Flaming nosehairs or Metaline monkey if he damn' well pleases. Or with his fists.
Catharz,
Not a problem. You've given me plenty of support in the past on other things. Unfortunately, on this I will have to respectfully disagree. Using quotes from the particular abilities:
1. What can a Monk Unarmed Strike with?: "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet." (SRD) This is RAW. Nothing about using their "entire body" as a living weapon. I would also argue they can use their head...but no, a Monk using their nosehairs to attack, no matter how intimidating, is not making an Unarmed Strike.
2. What may a Kensai's Signature Weapon be?: "...all of the kensai's natural weapons of one type are imbued at 100% of the cost +10% per natural weapon. For example, a human kensai who has WF (unarmed strike) may turn his fists into signature weapons for 120% of the XP cost." (CW pg. 51) The CW is fairly specific for a Monk, and RAW even more restrictive than I've allowed: you can do your fists, your feet, your elbows, your bite, your tail...but you cannot do them all. The examples do not support imbuing your "body" as one weapon...they take a paragraph explicitly developing the process for a kensai with natural weapons or one who is a Monk. This is not an "error" in the sample character...it is a specific class ability description in the PrC.
3. What may a Necklace of Natural Weapons enhance?: Based on your interpretation of "Unarmed Strike," Catharz, I'd agree with you that a Necklace of Natural Weapons could imbue all of a Monk's "natural" unarmed strike points equally. But returning to point #1, an Unarmed Strike is not a blanket form of attack that covers every part of the body. Its effects would be limited to those points used to make the attack.
It just says "one or more pairs". 2 claws are sufficient, otherwise the king of smack wouldnt work.
That's correct...I suppose it's just the Aberration/Plant/Dragon/etc. type that usually trips people up.
Catharz,
Not a problem. You've given me plenty of support in the past on other things. Unfortunately, on this I will have to respectfully disagree. Using quotes from the particular abilities:
1. What can a Monk Unarmed Strike with?: "A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet." (SRD) This is RAW. Nothing about using their "entire body" as a living weapon. I would also argue they can use their head...but no, a Monk using their nosehairs to attack, no matter how intimidating, is not making an Unarmed Strike.
I'll be damned. No nosehair attacks, and no headbutts either
Still, that doesn't change the mechanics much.
2. What may a Kensai's Signature Weapon be?: "...all of the kensai's natural weapons of one type are imbued at 100% of the cost +10% per natural weapon. For example, a human kensai who has WF (unarmed strike) may turn his fists into signature weapons for 120% of the XP cost." (CW pg. 51) The CW is fairly specific for a Monk, and RAW even more restrictive than I've allowed: you can do your fists, your feet, your elbows, your bite, your tail...but you cannot do them all. The examples do not support imbuing your "body" as one weapon...they take a paragraph explicitly developing the process for a kensai with natural weapons or one who is a Monk. This is not an "error" in the sample character...it is a specific class ability description in the PrC.
I still hold it true that this is in error. A Claw is a natural weapon. A bite is a natural weapon. A Tail can be a natural weapon. But Fists, Knees, Elbows, and Feet aren't natural weapons. If they were, a human could take Multiattack and as a first level monk make two unarmed strikes, one "Fist," two "Knees," two "Elbows" and two "Feet" attacks. I shudder to think what a Thri-kreen could accomplish.
So what their six-armed monk with a bite and a tail attack could enhance is either his Unarmed strike, his Bite, or his Tail. He doesn't have an "Fists" to enhance.
Even if it is not in error, it is unimportant because you don't have to enhance the Unarmed strike as a natural weapon. Just enhance the Unarmed Strike as per normal Kensai rules (not manufactured, so no need for Masterwork, not natural, so no need for multiple applications).
3. What may a Necklace of Natural Weapons enhance?: Based on your interpretation of "Unarmed Strike," Catharz, I'd agree with you that a Necklace of Natural Weapons could imbue all of a Monk's "natural" unarmed strike points equally. But returning to point #1, an Unarmed Strike is not a blanket form of attack that covers every part of the body. Its effects would be limited to those points used to make the attack.
And ya, you're right about this :/
No metaline body for hardness 20 (not that most characters could be metaline enhanced anyway).
The mechanical effect (and there's an important one) is that you can't use Sizing to make you a Colossal character, nor can you use Metalline to turn into Adamantine (as you said). You can take sizing on your strike points, but you couldn't size it more than +1 and still have the strike point be usable (even then, it's at -4, correct? Since it's not like you can use both hands to manipulate your now giant elbow).
I still hold it true that this is in error. A Claw is a natural weapon. A bite is a natural weapon. A Tail can be a natural weapon. But Fists, Knees, Elbows, and Feet aren't natural weapons.
and
The Improved Unarmed Strike, however, has some unique characteristics which may be confusing you (and have certainly confused some game designers):
1) They can be enhanced as natural weapons. This doesn't mean that they are natural weapons.
and
Improved Unarmed Strike (General) You are skilled at fighting while unarmed. Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed--that is, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you. In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage at your option. Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damge with such an attack.
Taking these three together, IUS by itself does not make your unarmed strikes into natural weapons. That is a special feature of the monk class. To wit:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spells).
Taking just the above, a monk, and only a monk, could use the Necklace of Natural Attacks or the Kensai ability to enhance their unarmed strikes. A non-monk could only enhance an actual manufactured weapon, or their natural weapons, if they have any (most humans don't--they have unarmed strikes). However, in the case of the Kensai, there is an explicit rule for how it works with unarmed strikes and natural weapons. That special rule would override the general rule from the PHB. Even if you were to treat the monk unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon (and the Kensai ability certainly counts as a 'spell or effect'), you'd still have to follow the rules outlined for how unarmed strikes are enchanted.
Using the RAW, a Kensai could enhance his unarmed strike even if he wasn't a monk. I think the RAW mistakenly refer to 'unarmed strikes' as 'natural weapons' without explicitly talking about a monk's unarmed strikes, but I would still allow the RAW to work as-is, since a non-monk trying to use Kensai to enhance their unarmed strike would be wasting their time, imho.
If they were, a human could take Multiattack and as a first level monk make two unarmed strikes, one "Fist," two "Knees," two "Elbows" and two "Feet" attacks. I shudder to think what a Thri-kreen could accomplish.
I can't speak for a Thri-kreen, but humans do not have a natural weapon, nor do they have a natural attack sequence. Regardless, the natural weapon / manufactured weapon dichotomy of the monk unarmed strike only applies to "spells and effects"--the natural weapon attack sequence is neither a spell nor an effect, it's a game mechanic that is, at best, an inherent ability of the form. Ability != effect or spell.
Additionally, note that if the Kensai monk with claw attacks who uses his ability to enhance his unarmed strike (fists) does not also enhance his claws. Even if he has both Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and Weapon Focus (claw) (WF is a prerequisite for the class and for the Signature Weapon ability), they would be treated independently. The problem is that the Kensai can only pick one weapon for his Signature Weapon ability -- it can either be his unarmed strike, or his claws. So in the RAW example where the Kensai is enchanting both his claws and his bite, that is in contradiction with the Signature Weapon concept (since you would need two different WF feats to qualify both bite and claws as Signature Weapons, but you still can only choose one of the two). That would be an advantage of Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) -- it applies to feet, hands, elbows, everything (though they still must be enchanted independently). A creature with natural weapons would have to pick one set and one set only as their Signature Weapon.
You could work around this by allowing the Kensai to take Weapon Focus (natural weapons), but that breaks the rules for the Weapon Focus feat. There are many examples of monsters in the MM that have Weapon Focus, so you can use those examples to see how it is meant to work.
Even if it is not in error, it is unimportant because you don't have to enhance the Unarmed strike as a natural weapon. Just enhance the Unarmed Strike as per normal Kensai rules (not manufactured, so no need for Masterwork, not natural, so no need for multiple applications).
Again, you could rule it this way, sure, but if you do not follow the rule of how unarmed strikes are enchanted with that ability, then you are making a house rule. There's nothing wrong with doing so, it's just not following the RAW.
All this is almost moot, though--by the time you're a 10th level Kensai, even paying 200% of the XP cost to enchant everything (190% actually) isn't all that big a deal at that character level.
Again, you could rule it this way, sure, but if you do not follow the rule of how unarmed strikes are enchanted with that ability, then you are making a house rule. There's nothing wrong with doing so, it's just not following the RAW.
Look at Kensai again. There are specifically rules for enhancing any weapon. In addition, there are specific clauses regarding manufactured and natural weapons. As the Improved Unarmed Strike is neither, you may ignore those clauses (unless you wish to use the specific monk rules that let you enhance it as a natural or maufactured weapon).
Look at Kensai again.
I think the dozenth time I looked at it was sufficient ;), but okay, I'll look at it again. *reads*
There are specifically rules for enhancing any weapon.
Yes. And double weapons and natural weapons get special rules on top of the base rules for imbuing any weapon.
In addition, there are specific clauses regarding manufactured and natural weapons. As the Improved Unarmed Strike is neither, you may ignore those clauses (unless you wish to use the specific monk rules that let you enhance it as a natural or maufactured weapon).
A monk's unarmed strike (this is a monk thread, after all) is most definitely both manufactured and natural in this case, according to the RAW. As you'll note in my quote in the previous post regarding the monk's unarmed strike, the "treated as both manufactured and natural" ruling applies if the spell or effect is improving or enhancing the unarmed strike--the Kensai ability is most certainly an effect that is improving or enhancing. Since you need Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) to get into the class, and you need it to use the Signature Weapon, and a technique for applying it to unarmed strikes is detailed in the special ability description, it should be the one used.
Completley ignoring any printed example and doing something entirely different is in the realm of a house rule. These forums use printed examples all the time to justify their builds, or to invalidate one. If you choose to ignore the examples, then you might as well be setting your own rules for the game. Which, as I said, is perfectly legitimate, but such rules will not necessarily be usable by people outside your campaign.
Really, this is all semantics anyway, because the different rulings ultimately have the same results. Either rule can produce the same character build at the same level--the sample Kensai in the book, for example (there's that word again), simply says "Signature Weapon: +5 enhancement." Either ruling could produce an identical character at that CL (15 in that case).
--Rooth
Might not change any of the builds, but these are things that need to get sorted out somewhere.
It doesn't even act like one, because a monk always applies his full Str mod (never 1/2 or 1+1/2) to unarmed strike attacks, special abilities notwithstanding.
So, if we do go by the specific Kensai IUS rules, a kensai who has enhanced all of his "fists" then has all of his IUS attacks enhanced (as per the description of enhancing unarmed strikes). This would then include knees, feet, and elbows, as well as fists. CW states that "a kensai who imbues a natural weapon must imbue all of his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists)."
That is wrong on a number of levels.
Firstly, (as I have already stated) a "fist" is not a natural weapon. Normal humans don't have "fists" in the context of D&D RAW, beyond as a specific IUS 'strike-point.'
Secondly, if you consider every IUS 'strike-point' to be something that must be enhanced as a weapon, the human kensai must enhance his knees, feet, and elbows, as well as fists. Which would cost 180% of the normal amount, which means that the given example is wrong regardlesss of how you look at it.
The IUS (as you stated) must then be enhanced as a manufactured weapon as well.
"The 'treated as both manufactured and natural' ruling applies if the spell or effect is improving or enhancing the unarmed strike--the Kensai ability is most certainly an effect that is improving or enhancing."
So, the monk's unarmed strike must be masterwork. And, because you can't have a masterwork IUS, the monk's IUS can't be enhanced at all (because, according to you, it must be enhanced as both a manufactured and natural weapon).
And if you somehow managed to make your IUS masterwork, the cost would be...180% ("natural weapon" enhancement) + 100% (manufactured weapon enhancement) = 280%.
Right...
I bring up the Quarterstaff example to show that even if you treat the Unarmed Strike as a manufactured weapon and are therefore proficient in "one weapon," you still have to enchant it multiple times if you want do use more than one end of it as your Signature Weapon...one for each strike point (yes you can strike using the center of a quarterstaff...but RAW it has two strike points and those are the ends).
So, a Kensai can do two fists, etc. up to all fists, feet, elbows, and knees...180% of the standard cost to enchant. Treating an Unarmed Strike as a "manufactured weapon" does not circumvent needing to enchant multiple points on the body separately.
2) there is no such thing as a "strike-point" in the RAW,
and 3) a kensai must enhance all "natural weapons" of one type (so not just "fists").
The most logical extrapolation of this is that every strike-point must be enchanted for an additional 10%...NOT that "Unarmed Strike" can be treated as "one weapon."
Well apparently logic is in the eye of the beholder. I doubt many people play magic fang like that ... I consider the mention of fists bad copy/pasting of 3.0 content there, and I suspect most people agree.
As Ive said before, I think the example makes a whole lot more sense for a non monk with the IUS feat ... since monks cant do offhand attacks with their unarmed strike anymore (ignoring the FAQ, since it contradicts RAW).
As Ive said before, I think the example makes a whole lot more sense for a non monk with the IUS feat ... since monks cant do offhand attacks with their unarmed strike anymore (ignoring the FAQ, since it contradicts RAW).
You're not the first to say that, and you probably won't be the last, but if we were to collectively judge the FAQ to be invalid because it contradicts the RAW, and we also judge the RAW to be invalid because of typos, bad editing, copy&pasting of old data, or just plain subjectivity, then everyone participating in this and similar discussions have run out of common ground to work on.
After a nice long session tonight designed to help the party identify their group and individual strengths and weaknesses, it's become more clear to me than ever before that monks are, at best, an afterthought in the game of D&D. The (apparently) confusing Kensai writeup is just one of many such symptoms of this phenomenon. Most any feats, spells, classes, abilities, items, etc, that involve the notion of 'manufactured', 'unarmed', or 'natural' has potential for great confusion all because of that one little paragraph where monk unarmed strikes are 'raised' to the level of something special (treated as manufactured and natural). They probabaly should've just made them one or the other--not both, and not something inbetween.
As has been said for generations now, "Maybe they'll do it right in the next version of the game."
Take a look at the CV, the longstaff is a new monk weapon with some nice bonuses.
Take a look at the CV, the longstaff is a new monk weapon with some nice bonuses.
It's still exotic, though, and thus would require a feat to use. Monks being feat-poor, it might not be worth it. Does sound pretty neat, though.
The search engine being offline, I got a quick question, can a monk use flurry with a drunken masters improvised weapons?
I don't think they could flurry with an improvised weapon any better than they could flurry with a dagger, shortsword, or natural weapon--if it's not a special monk weapon (and you don't have Shou Disciple), you don't flurry with it.
BTW, the April edition of Dragon Magazine has some special monk 'styles' borrowed from RL cultures. The upshot is that they provide alternate weapon groupings--one of the 'styles' gives the shortsword as a special monk weapon. And I think another includes the bow (though I think only as a proficiency, and not a flurryable ranged weapon).
It's still exotic, though, and thus would require a feat to use. Monks being feat-poor, it might not be worth it. Does sound pretty neat, though.
Hmmm, to my understanding it is a new monk weapon, to anyone else it's an exotic weapon. Maybe I read it wrong but in our campaign, it's a monk weapon. No new feat is required. Might want to check it again just to make sure.
If anything most monk weapon should have some minor additional ability tied to it since, generally monks will not use weapons due to the damage compared to their unarmed attacks. The longstaff is a perfect example of what a normal Q-staff should be in the hands of a monk.
If anything most monk weapon should have some minor additional ability tied to it since, generally monks will not use weapons due to the damage compared to their unarmed attacks. The longstaff is a perfect example of what a normal Q-staff should be in the hands of a monk.
I agree about most monks not using weapons. In fact all the monks I've ever played have only used unarmed and occasionally a ranged weapon (closing to melee ASAP). There are so many ways now to give monks magical weapon enhancements on their unarmed attacks that there is no reason to use a weapon at all other than to bypass difficult DR (unless your DM allows metalline on the hands then there is still no reason to use weaopns). But when I get home to my books I'm going to look up this longstaff.
Hmmm, to my understanding it is a new monk weapon, to anyone else it's an exotic weapon. Maybe I read it wrong but in our campaign, it's a monk weapon. No new feat is required. Might want to check it again just to make sure. If anything most monk weapon should have some minor additional ability tied to it since, generally monks will not use weapons due to the damage compared to their unarmed attacks.
"monk weapons", as such, do have a minor additional ability -- monks can flurry with them. That's the sole distinction between a monk weapon and a non-monk weapon. I've never come across something (in 3.5) that says or implies monks automatically gain proficiency with a weapon simply because it is a "monk" weapon.
I'll look at the longstaff's verbage again later today. But, unless it has verbage specifying that it adds to the list of monk weapon proficiencies (or counts as a quarterstaff for terms of proficiency), then it ought to be treated as it is listed--an exotic weapon.
Naturally, your DM may rule otherwise. We're just trying to interpret the intent of the rules here.
In any event, they're both listed as exotic weapons. By all accounts, they both require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to use. If you go with the ruling that monks are automatically proficient with all regular and exotic monk weapons, you're going to have a hard time telling the fighter that, even though he's proficient with all martial weapons, he has to take a feat to be proficient with an exotic martial weapon. In the end, you end up with a feat in the core books becoming obsolete--Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
That said, in the campaign I play in, the DM allowed me to be proficient with the lajatang, and to treat it as a quarterstaff for things like Weapon Focus and whatnot, much like the longstaff presents itself as. This was a house rule, though. And it was an exception, for story purposes--he did not simply give monks the "weapon familiarity" equivalent.
I'm still looking, but so far I haven't found anything that says or implies monks automatically gain proficiency with exotic weapons of any sort, monk or otherwise.
Anyone else find something to solidify this?
Hmmm, to my understanding it is a new monk weapon, to anyone else it's an exotic weapon. Maybe I read it wrong but in our campaign, it's a monk weapon. No new feat is required. Might want to check it again just to make sure.
Monks aren't automatically proficient with "special monk weapons". They can use such weapons in their flurry of blows, but they aren't automatically proficient with them. That is a completely separate issue. I don't have my books on me right now, but I'm pretty sure there were several examples of this in the Oriental Adventures book.
Edit: Really, you don't need to look farther than the monk class description in the SRD to confirm this. Monks are proficient with the following: club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.
In the Flurry of Blows section, it says that monks may make attacks during a flurry with unarmed strikes or "special monk weapons". It then lists which weapons from the monk's proficiency list are considered "special monk weapons" in parenthesis (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). Not all of the weapons that the monk is proficient with are listed there. Proficiency and "special monk weapon" are two separate things.
Let's just say until he finally sat down and read the FAQ/SRD stating you can sunder more than once in one round...it was ugly.
So yeah, but until DM figures it out it's on my eq list and i'll be using it without -4. :D
I think the intent here is that monks are not automatically proficient -- otherwise, why say "monks who are proficient", when there are no monks who are not?
because they are trying to cover themselves for the rules monkies who will find a way to qualify for a monk prestige class without taking any levels in monk. the rules are not ment to be read into (trying to define something by using a different rule somewhere else), they are supposed to be read as quoted, because different people word things different ways and there are different authors for each book, etc... and while rules as written are the "law" thre are typos...don't assume that something written was intended to be used in whatever way we find to break it.
I don't think they could flurry with an improvised weapon any better than they could flurry with a dagger, shortsword, or natural weapon--if it's not a special monk weapon (and you don't have Shou Disciple), you don't flurry with it.
the key part of the drunken master is they are not specifically using the improvised weapon as a weapon but as an enhancing property of their style, so when a drunken master flurries with an improvised weapon he's actually just flurrying, using a jackie chan style of fighting, there's a chair I'll pick it up and us it to disarm this guy, oh that bad guy is going for the door I'll use this bench to trip him, this guy is still holding a beer I'll make him let me have a drink... that kind of thing.
in game terms what does it give anyone have a description of it?
It's the most complicated feat published in a WotC book. IIRC it takes up 2-3 pages of the book including a 20 level progression table. It's essentially a feat (almost another class overlapping the characters normal classes) that prohibits the character from using magic items, but to counter the nerfing effect this has on a character as they increase in levels the character gains supernatural and extraordinary abilities such as attribute & AC increases, any weapon they use counts as magical and gains an alignment, etc. But it is strict, if you violate it you lose all your abilities which can really bite if you're a higher level character and suddenly find yourself without the VoP abilities AND no magic items. It also tends to pale in comparison at higher levels compaired to the magic items many characters have, unless the magic items are gained through randomly rolled treasure, then IMO VoP is better. I think many people who don't like VoP because it is "weak" are looking at a level 20 build and optimizing magic item purchases based off of level 20 gold, starting from scratch and not building the character through play which would have a more limiting effect on the magic items (instead of a few high cost magic items they would have a handful of good items, some not so good items, and some items they can't use due to magic item limitations, such as having two amulets but can only use one).
I did a quick "analysis" where I compared the VoP monk to a mnk6/clr4/sacredfist10 (using Eberron, Dragon Mag, etc), and it turns out that the VoP can pretty much keep up with the sacred fist up until around level 18 (just as Mean Liar mentioned). Even so, at 19 and 20, the VoP is much more versatile as a combatant, with much more speed, better AC, insane saves, etc. Don't get me wrong, the sacred fist's damage comes out to be almost 2x as much as the VoP's, but I think that at that level, tactic becomes much more important than just instant kills? Or is it the other way around?
1) I think everyone knows this already, but the value of VoP depends a lot on the type of game you're in. Just one example of this is if your DM often has the players captured and they have to recover their gear when they break out of jail or something. Also, if everyone is flying and you aren't a caster monk, you can be screwed. The feat is often looked down upon in objective minmax discussion, but in the right game, not having to worry about possessions can be amazing.
2) Since the problem spots for VoP seem to come when we get to 18th level, I was working with a few people on an epic progression. I think it would be a good way to make the feat worthwhile at high levels, if we give them stuff to make up for oversights in the original 20 level progression. Any ideas for what they would get? I'm guessing things could get really amazing if their ability scores and bonuses keep increasing. Just hoping for some thoughts...
A few things.
1) I think everyone knows this already, but the value of VoP depends a lot on the type of game you're in. Just one example of this is if your DM often has the players captured and they have to recover their gear when they break out of jail or something. Also, if everyone is flying and you aren't a caster monk, you can be screwed. The feat is often looked down upon in objective minmax discussion, but in the right game, not having to worry about possessions can be amazing.
There's also always the possibility of your buffs being dispelled, so I definitely see advantages for a VoP. I'm just wondering if I'm missing a really big hole. Combine VoP with the Saint template, and you're pretty darn near untouchable by anything....
2) Since the problem spots for VoP seem to come when we get to 18th level, I was working with a few people on an epic progression. I think it would be a good way to make the feat worthwhile at high levels, if we give them stuff to make up for oversights in the original 20 level progression. Any ideas for what they would get? I'm guessing things could get really amazing if their ability scores and bonuses keep increasing. Just hoping for some thoughts...
I found this while surfing: http://www.patric.net/morpheus/cast/add/ascetic.html
Possible Buid:
Strongheart Halfling Monk 20.
Feats: Expeditious Dodge (level 1), Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) (SH bonus feat), Weapon Finesse (Halfling Monk 2nd level bonus feat), Mobility (level 3), Spring Attack (level 6), Underfoot Combat (level 9), Choose The Poison (level 12), Weakening touch (level 15), Pain Touch (level 18).
Your stunning attack DC should be really high, with Ability focus and Size Matters Not (instead of wholeness of body). Your mobility should be great (Spring Attack, Underfoot combat) and you can utilize this optimally (Skirmish +2d6 and AC +4, with Expeditious Dodge; Spring Attack, Stunning Fist).
Any critique?
PS: Choose The Poison is from Quintessential Monk, and allows you to choose between a FORT and a WILL save to counter your Stunning Attack.
Half-Ogre Monk
Powerful Monk v3.0
Monk20
Monk1 Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Attack*, Ability Focus (Stunning Attack)
Monk2 Combat Reflexes*
Monk3 Expert Tactician
Monk6 Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip*
Monk9 Pain Touch
Monk12 TWF
Monk15 Rapid Stunning
Monk18 Imp TWF
Monk20 -
Due to the updates, I decided to make a Goliath Monk for the purpose of following the premise of this build. Both Expert Tactician and the Half Ogre have been nurfed to death so I heard Goliath is the next best thing (I don't have nor am allowed to use the dragon issue for the Half Minotaur so thats out of the question). To get to my question, is there a revised version of this build or a much improved version with updated feats? Is there a suitable replacement for Expert Tactician? Please respond mean liar or anybody thats a monk expert for that matter. I need this character for an up coming game very soon. Thanks.
Lots of updating to be done on this thread if I want it to stay relevant. Thanks for reminding me. :P
I'd take TWF at 3rd, Imp TWF at 12th, and then Leadership at 18th, just for kicks (and assuming the game goes that far).
If you can sneak in a Flaw or swing an alignment change, pick up a Guisarme. Reach weapons are just so cool.
think this will be fun as soon as I get Combat reflexes
Screw the BAB. Make them attack you. This is how you get 6 attacks to their 3 when you stand toe-to-toe with someone.
-A
-DS
Half Ogre Monk 6/ Shintao Monk 3/ Singh Rager 4 here. He is going to be a mater of Akidio (Imp Grapple, Earths Embrace) and Tae kwon do (Charging with Flying Kick) dealing double damage on a pin or charge with a full set of attacks. (does the damage only double for the first of these)? He has also taken a Vow of Poverty granting him a 30+ Str in a rage and with the Shtao levels an immunity to: Sleep, Slow, Suffication, Disease, Starvation, Dehydration, Fear and Stunning. Add in Imp Nat Attack and you get 4d6 damage.
-DS
Gah? Where do I find these maters you speak of? I don't have all the books so if its ok if you direct me to all the appropriate references.
An thanks alot Mean for the heads up, you have a great thread here. You do have to admit though that it needs a wee bit of updating.
Gah? Where do I find these maters you speak of? I don't have all the books so if its ok if you direct me to all the appropriate references.
I don't remember where the latest version of the Half-Ogre is. Vow of Poverty is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Improved Natural Attack is in the Monster Manual (and SRD). Everything else he mentions is from Oriental Adventures.
- DS
Edit: Page 29!!! Man this thread rocks!
I don't remember where the latest version of the Half-Ogre is. Vow of Poverty is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Improved Natural Attack is in the Monster Manual (and SRD). Everything else he mentions is from Oriental Adventures.
Thanks
An thanks alot Mean for the heads up, you have a great thread here. You do have to admit though that it needs a wee bit of updating.
Expect an update in the near future. I've got a lot of retooling to do, and there's a lot of recalculation to be done, especially in the Builds section. There's a LOT more options available to monks than there were when this was first written, and lot more cool monk multiclass options. I hope to be done by the end of this week.
Very comprehensive, and the feat section was good.
I'm looking forward to the builds.
Updated. No examples yet, since I'm rusty and don't want to embarass myself.
I have a feeling your embarassing examples could still mop the floor with a lot of people's stuff.
Great update.Has anyone made a chart for size increases + monk damage by level? Aka something like showing 1st level as 1d6 then showing what the next ten size increases would be? 1d6 > 1d8 >1s10 etc etc? just wondering what kind of mileage Improved natural attack will grant is all.
Look at the 'Monk Damage' in my Sig. The progression is rather ill defined but which ever system you use it is well worth it, just make sure you find plenty of ways to increase your size to get the maximum effect.
The thread assumes you use the rules in the SRD, which are the same as for Improved Natural Attacks, and not the odd rules in the MM for advancing monster size.
Neither really deals with more than 6 size increases, but that's ok because you can get to 24d20 damage by that point which should be enough for anyone.
Lord Kiwi,
I've got a question related to monks without Stunning fist: Is wisdom really an ability worth pumbing, or should one just dump? With all of the Combat reflexes stuff, Dex just seems much better.
And, from a completely opposite perspective, what is your take on Psi-monks? You list Warmind and Psi Fist, but don't really give any specifics.
I've been thinking that the psi-monk could be a great reson to pump wisdom even without SF. I've been thinking about something with Psychic Weapon Master for the wisdom ->AoOs. Of course crystal gauntlets would be a must, which nullifies Flurry. There was a pretty amazing build a while back using Sweeping strike, Whirlwind, Psionic lion's charge, and some knockdown/knockback stuff. And Expansion & Reach are a monk's best friends.
And of course you can use those shard things (up to 4 IIRC).
With a strong offensive build, AC gets to be less of a factor until higher levels when facing multiple high-HP Power Attackers with good BABs. Until then, the best defense is a good offense.
I'm certainly going to include a WarMind PsyMonk in the example section, if only to show how much better they can be compared to a Fist of Zuoken.
Without Stunning Fist, I'd say that DEX is more important, even with a Psi-Monk. The best tricks a Psychic Warrior has are self-buffs, which really means that you need your minimum WIS to use the ability and enough points that you're able to pull off your tricks relatively often.
With a strong offensive build, AC gets to be less of a factor until higher levels when facing multiple high-HP Power Attackers with good BABs. Until then, the best defense is a good offense.
That has been my experience with an 18 str, 8 wisdom, 14 dex monk.
You need enough dex for combat reflexes. It's there for combat reflexes and reflex saves, not for armor class.
You need strength a lot since it powers not only your tactical maneuvers but also your "straight damage" from the flurry...both to-hit and damage. My monk has nearly the same top-level attack mods as the other fighters at his table. They have put less emphasis into strength than I have, but have more BAB.
But the AC is too expensive to raise high enough to be worthwile. Spend that 18k on +d6 weaponry to get more out of flurry. Or a strength belt. Or saving through/hp boosters. Or anything other than AC boosters.
When the AC boosters seem cheap...you'll have them for those multiple high HP power attackers with good bab (that are also size huge+)
Just remember that you're like the raging barbarian and not the dwarf towershield guy and you'll be fine.
Updated. No examples yet, since I'm rusty and don't want to embarass myself.
Throw us a few builds that uses Beyond Monks, and any other books that you use that aren't official WotC books. There are a few of us around here that's allowed to use 3rd party materials, so I'd appreciate it.
With so much material out there now, its the most meaningful distinction to make.
Another update to the examples section: Oriental Adventures, Enlightened Fist, and Sacred Fist builds added.
I think your Enlightened Fist (Wraithstrike) build doesn't qualify for the PrC due to the 3rd level arcane caster requirement? Although, I think Practiced Spellcaster + 1 level in an arcane class would work. I've been trying to put together a decent low-point-build EF but I haven't yet found the magical combination to use in the first 5 levels.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6056037&postcount=8
It has a really cool DBZ feel to it.
HalfOrcParagon3/Monk3/Ftr2/ShouDisciple5/ShintaoMonk4/?3
Racial Ability Mods: Str +4, Int&Cha-2
At 17th level, BAB +15, Saves: F17, R12, W9
Feats: Imp. Grapple (m1), Combat Reflexes (m2), Dodge (F1), Wpn Focus: Unarmed (F2), Power Attack (1), Extra Rage (3), Wolf Berzerker (6), Improved Trip (Shou2), Mobility (Shou4), Elusive Target (9), Improved Bull Rush (12), Shock Trooper (15), Close Quarters Fighting (18), Defensive Throw (ShinM1), Great Throw (ShinM3)
Special Benefits: Evasion; Still Mind; Rage 3/day; Greater Flurry with any weapon; immune to stunning, sleep, and slow effects; Detect Evil at will; Smite Evil 1/day; Detect Magic 1/day; Light 1/day (self); unarmed damage 2d6
Use a guisarme.
Psychic Raging Tactical Half-Orc
HalfOrcParagon3/Monk4/ShouDisciple5/PsionicFist8
Racial Ability Mods: Str +4, Int&Cha-2
BAB +17, Base Saves: F13, R15, W12, Movement 80
Str: 18+4race+5level+5inherent+6enh+4AugExpansion+4Rage = 46
Grapple: 17BAB+8size+4GripOfIron+4ImpGrapple+18Str = 51
Trip: 18Str+8size+8feats = 34
Unarmed Damage w/belt&FangedRing after Augmented Expansion = 8d8
Feats: Stunning Fist (m1), Combat Reflexes (m2), Dodge (1), Wpn Focus: Unarmed (3), Wolf Berzerker (6), Improved Trip (Shou2), Improved Grapple (Shou4), Wild Talent (9), Sun School (12), Extra Rage (15), Power Attack (18), Quicken Power (PF5)
Special Benefits: Evasion; Still Mind; Ki Strike: Magic, Slow Fall 10ft; Rage 3/day; Flurry with any weapon; unarmed damage 2d10 (w/monk's belt); Wis +3 to AC.
Powers: 1st: Expansion, Grip of Iron; 2nd: Strength of My Enemy, Psionic Lion's Charge; 3rd: Claws of the Vampire, Ubiquitous Vision; 4th: Dimension Door, True Venom
When he is fully buffed and hits someone, he does 8d8+18 +1 (or 2) Str drain (which he gets) + 1d8 Con damage. He is healed for half the base damage he does. He can Dimension Door to his target and make one attack via Sun School. His movement is 80 and he can full attack on a charge.
A Monk with 16 BAB would get in 7 attacks (4+2 ITWF+1 Flurry), +up to 2X, where X is their Dex mod. Hope you have Wrathful Healing or a Retributive Amulet though.
Added it to the Prestige Class section.What's the Psionic Fist class?
ck2001wendt - updated the Feat section based on your suggestion.
...
How am I doing? I'm looking for a little feedback on the builds in the example section... any comments?
Monk Breakpoint: 4th. Your hands are now magic weapons, and you've gotten some basic boosts.
PrCs:
Kensai (CW): Was amazing in 2nd Ed, but it still pretty good here. The Str/Con boost is nice, Combat Expertise is something you want anyway, and you can swap Ref out for Concentrate checks.
As for the imbuing your hands as weapons, Magic Fang (+5) + Necklace of Natural Attacks or Magic Gauntlets (+1, +9 abilities) + Kensai (+1, +9 abilities) +Gauntlets of the Talon (if you chose the NoNA option) = +5 weapon, +20 or so in special abilities. I like Wrathful Healing, Holy and Wounding as my base.
Pious Templar 1 or 4: Mettle is a great way to exploit your good overall saves and makes you very hard to touch w. spells. A Mage-Slaying Templar would be something.
What's the Psionic Fist class?
It's called the Fist of Zuoken or something in the actual book, but in the SRD it's the Psionic Fist. Dammit, I wish I had time to actually play D&D. I'd like to try out that second build that I posted. :D
Shar's Monk
Monk2/Hexblade3/Swashbuckler3/Ur-Priest2/MysticWanderer2/Nightcloak8*
Required Feats: Kung Fu Genius, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Necromancy, Enchantment, or Illusion), Spell Focus (Evil)
BAB +15, Evasion and Mettle, Charisma and Intelligence to saves, Int to AC and damage, Charisma to AC, 9th level spells.
I'm not sure what happens if you get +1 caster level after having all 10 levels of Ur-Priest caster levels. I don't even care if the caster increases are just wasted. I wanted those PrC levels for the special abilities they offer.
You have several feats to play with still in this build. I'd be tempted to go the Divine Metamagic (Persistent) route because you'd get alot of synergy with your Cha stat from that. It is very feat intensive, though, and would require the rest of your feats.
With three stats to AC, two to damage, two to saves, and another one for spellcasting, this build would benefit hugely in a high stat game. (i.e. it's got mad MAD)
*From the same web enhancement that brought us the Dweomer Cheater (I mean Keeper).
Can the thread denizens comment on the relative strengths and weaknesses of taking the warmind PrC instead of the psionic fist PrC? Warmind has more power points, better BAB and Saves, but doesn't stack with Monk for anything. Assume that multiclassing isn't a problem.
It would be great for a more martial oriented character, which I like alot, hence my use of Shou Disciple in alot of builds I post. But of course the Psionic Fist will give you a more "monk-like" PC.
I don't see how you're getting that Warmind has "better" saves, though. Both have 2 good saves, and I wouldn't say either is "better" than the other. Warmind does have more power points, but fewer powers known. It might make a bit stronger character overall, but not by much. Both have their benefits.
Regarding the Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken vs WarMind, I think the Fist's advantage is that its easier to qualify. Concentration is easy to come across as a Monk or Monk hybrid, but 8 ranks of Knowledge (Psionics) usually requires a feat or non-favorable multiclassing (at least as far as Monk are concerned) to acquire in an expeditious manner.
Personally, the WarMind's abilities are much more impressive to me than the Fist's, but as far as balance of PrCs is concerned thats entirely understandable given the prereq differences.
In general, when you're looking to multiclass a Monk unarmed combat progression shouldn't be your major concern - there are tons of ways to increase that. The concern should be on Flurry capabilities. In this particular instance, the Fist and WarMind have nothing that contribute to Flurry and so you're left judging them on unarmed damage progression (Fist) vs powerful class abilities (WarMind). I'd say class abilities trump by a handy margin, again assuming you can come up with a clever way to acquire 8 ranks of Knowledge (psionics) with a minimum of fuss.
all in all, Warmind wins,IMHO
:D
Why NightCloak?
I just think the abilities it gets are cool. ;) And the Int to saves goes well with Kung Fu Genius, which I also like alot.
In this particular instance, the Fist and WarMind have nothing that contribute to Flurry and so you're left judging them on unarmed damage progression (Fist) vs powerful class abilities (WarMind). I'd say class abilities trump by a handy margin, again assuming you can come up with a clever way to acquire 8 ranks of Knowledge (psionics) with a minimum of fuss.
Yeah, it's a real shame Psionic Fist specifically says it doesn't stack with monk for flurry. It would be a spectacular class if it did. But I think the writers of the psionics stuff were very concerned with balance, and were careful to try not to make anything that might be considered overpowered. I still don't think the Warmind is all that much better, though.
they clearly have the same as FoZ. But, sweeping strike seems like an awesome class ability, especially combined with the enlarge psi-power.As to getting the prereqs down, I'd say that taking a pair of levels in Psy-warrior might help, but I'm a little unsure about the math. The two bonus feats from PW are just gravy.
It also seems like having access to Psionic powers (through any of these prestige classes) would help alleviate the power imbalance that comes from taking VoP to levels 18+. I'm not sure, though, as I've never played at the epic level.
I was thinking of a Monk/Blade Dancer/Sorcerer or Monk/Sohei/Blade Dancer/Singh Rager or something, because I can't get access to Psionics, and I'd really REALLY like a decent melee class with spell-like abilities or spells... I'm totally thinking Naruto, except with real classes instead of homemade ones...
Blade Dancer grants +a lot of base speed (90-120feet), some enchantments to my weapon (was thinking of using my unarmed strike as weapon) and a lot of tumble, jump and balance bonuses... That way I could get "natural" enchantments to my fists without having to struggle with the DM to allow Ward Cestus or something of the like... My party is still all "of course Amulet of Mighty fist is expensive! You can't be disarmed or sundered! DOH", which is kinda annoying...
I'd also get the speed a 20th lvl monk would get, which is absolutely up my alley... Fast martial artists are my favourites
The reason I'm thinking of MonkX/SoheiX/Blade Dancer10/Singh Rager5, is because I'd get some spells (I'd like mirror image, mage armour and shield though), a base speed of at least 120feet, enchanted fists, rage (like barbs rage), another rage giving +2dex and con and an extra attack at a -2 penalty, and the ability to charge (acrobatic charge for extra bonuses) more than 200feet, do a full attack action after the charge (Lion's Pounce) and tumble like a bizzatch:P
Any ideas?
I have cat-type race (not catfolk) with +2 dex, -2 Cha, and stats as follows: 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 18. I gain +2 to either hide or move silent, and a +2 to jump. Base speed is already 40’. I have a 6th level character I think I want to be a straight monk.
I can use almost anything wotc, but not psionic, not forgotten realms, and not eberron.
I have standard 6th level starting gold, and can select a 'few' magic items - I am guessing 3 would be safe.
I would like to, for flavor reasons (my character is a cat-race, but lacks natural claws - I would like to give him that flavor), use a claw type of weapon, are there any outside of FR claw-bracers that can be used as monk weapons? It would be best (for my flavor), if it exists, to somehow gain natural claws if possible, or a magic item that closely resembles natural claws. It would be even better if it could use the improved damage for unarmed attacks the monk gets, as I doubt any claw-type weapon will deal much on its own.
The concept (in brief) is a character who raised himself or was raised by animals, etc.; outside of any society. His first encounter with humanoids was when hunters started killing his friends. Previously pacifistic, he hunted down the hunters, and killed them using his bestial fighting style. In tracking them down, he got himself lost, and before he could find his way back 'home' ran into a small town. He decided not all humanoids are bad (he is one himself, after all), and has come to like society in general. He is a charming and fun-loving prankster, very pacifistic unless he sees others being hurt - then he protects them with a fury. He'll even take minor blows and any ridicule directed at him without fighting, only fighting for others.
So, with those guidelines, I am thinking that a straight monk would work best - am I right? I also thought of a 1 level dip into barbarian for a rage, to demonstrate his fury whenever he breaks away from passivity... but that can be roleplayed without the rage mechanics.
I’m thinking for feats:
1: Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Pounce (catfolk feat from CAdv – not sure if I can talk the DM into that one, not sure if it would be all that useful for this build either)
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Ability Focus (stunning fist)
6: Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack (if I can get away with him having claws as unarmed) OR Weapon Focus (claw-type weapon)
He will need diplomacy and sense motive for his prankster, charismatic flavor – maybe perform too, and some cross class bluff? Jump is a must if I get pounce, right? Probably some ranks in craft for flavor.
Items – I have 13k to spend. I am not sure how much, if any, will go into the claw weapons. I’ll probably get a ring of jumping if I have the pounce feat. Monk’s belt would be nice, of course – if I can afford it. I would like something that allows several uses (if not unlimited) of alter self, mostly to aid the prankster bit… playing tricks in one guise and then becoming someone else; but also has neat utility for gaining gills, wings, etc. A cape of the mountebank would be nice too, I think; I am not practiced with using dimension door in combat, I love the idea.
Any other suggestions? Thanks!!!
Hmm, maybe it just sounds good because my DM likes to send such monsters at us.
I rolled really well (and the DM was kind) so I have the following rolls:
18,17,17,16,14,12
Nearly perfect for a monk.
We're starting in the Forgotten Realms in a desert where non-humans are prety much slaves or have no rights, so the DM HIGHLY (hint...hint) recommends a human or half-human race.
I was thinking about Half-Giant from the EPH and putting my stats like:
STR 19 (+2)
DEX 14 (-2)
CON 19 (+2)
INT 14
WIS 18
CHA 12
That gives me a good amount of hp and a good melee attack roll and damage. It also gives me the ability to wield over-sized weapons and to take psionic feats.
We're playing with flaws from UA (and traits). For flaws I choose Murky-eyed and Shaky (-2 ranged).
This gives me 3 feats at 1st level. I choose Militia (which gives me access to all martial weapons) first and since I can wield oversized weapons, I can wield a large glaive at no penalty.
Any ideas for other feats? I was thinking Pharoh's Fist and possible Psionic Fist (+2d6 damage to unarmed strike when you expend focus).
Any ideas or suggestions for paths I can follow if I'm going to be a tank? The DM isn't really enforcing the the no multi-classing for monks, so I can multi-class into fighter or psychic warrior... though the BAB is bad for warrior... although... it would give me access to powers to boost my pitiful AC.
Thanks!
If you Dont want a pitifull AC put some more in Dex and Wis, Keep the Con but switch out the str for something, you already get +2 to str and with items and such you can hurt alot, you can also take improved natural weapon....i thinks its called that cant remeber, but you deal dmg as a creature larger than yourself. In the MM
Typically Improved Natural Weapon is not worth it. I think it averaged out to +1 or +2 damage on average, which at low levels is good, but it can't be taken until level 4+ and at higher levels that +1 or +2 damage is not worth a feat. The only reason I would take it is if I had a lot of stacking abilities that all increased the damage dice then each step would add up to massive damage dice.
If you Dont want a pitifull AC put some more in Dex and Wis, Keep the Con but switch out the str for something, you already get +2 to str and with items and such you can hurt alot, you can also take improved natural weapon....i thinks its called that cant remeber, but you deal dmg as a creature larger than yourself. In the MM
Unfortunately, I have no better stat to put into DEX. I have 18,17,17,16,14,12.
18 for WIS...
17 for STR = 19 STR
17 for CON = 19 CON
16 for DEX = 14 DEX (even if I put a 17, it'd be 15...still only +2)
14 for INT
12 for CHA
Improved Natural weapon is something I may go for, but then again... as a half-giant I can use LARGE weapons... so my guissarme does 2d6+6 already.
Any ideas?
Shaman 20. Seriously.
I think I've decided to go...
1st - Monk 1 - Militia, Psionic Weapon (can use with the glaive or unarmed strike), Psionic Cystal Affinity
2nd - Monk 2
3rd - Monk 3 - Psionic Crystal Containment (I think, focus as move action)
4th - Monk 4
5th - Psychic Warrior 1 - Overchannel
6th - Psychic Warrior 2 - Imp. Natural Attack (if allowed), Talented
7th - Psionic Fist 1
And take Psionic Fist to level 10
Alternately, I could go to level 6 with monk and then switch to Psionic Fist, but then I loose on 2 extra powers and 2 extra feats.
Any other ideas?
Ok, we're starting a new campaign and I'm going to be playing instead of DMing. I've wanted to play a monk, but it looks like I'm going to be the main tank too. We've got a cleric who will multiclass with wizard for mystic theurge, a wizard who may multiclass with rogue for daggerspell mage and a rogue who may do something else...
I rolled really well (and the DM was kind) so I have the following rolls:
18,17,17,16,14,12
Nearly perfect for a monk.
We're starting in the Forgotten Realms in a desert where non-humans are prety much slaves or have no rights, so the DM HIGHLY (hint...hint) recommends a human or half-human race.
I was thinking about Half-Giant from the EPH and putting my stats like:
STR 19 (+2)
DEX 14 (-2)
CON 19 (+2)
INT 14
WIS 18
CHA 12
That gives me a good amount of hp and a good melee attack roll and damage. It also gives me the ability to wield over-sized weapons and to take psionic feats.
We're playing with flaws from UA (and traits). For flaws I choose Murky-eyed and Shaky (-2 ranged).
This gives me 3 feats at 1st level. I choose Militia (which gives me access to all martial weapons) first and since I can wield oversized weapons, I can wield a large glaive at no penalty.
Any ideas for other feats? I was thinking Pharoh's Fist and possible Psionic Fist (+2d6 damage to unarmed strike when you expend focus).
Any ideas or suggestions for paths I can follow if I'm going to be a tank? The DM isn't really enforcing the the no multi-classing for monks, so I can multi-class into fighter or psychic warrior... though the BAB is bad for warrior... although... it would give me access to powers to boost my pitiful AC.
Thanks!
1 - Where i can find a "Fanged Ring" (what book??)
2 - and What s "Steadfast Boots"
3 - "Improved Natural Attack" s possible combined with unarmed Attack, really?
4 - Gauntlets damage s 1d4, how u can make 8d6 !!?? (Light to Heavy + gold weapon, is 1d4 to 2d6). Unarmed attack damge atacks does not accumulate with Gauntlets.
Sorry, for my bad English ;p
Err... Noob questions, NO abbreviations please!
1 - Where i can find a "Fanged Ring" (what book??)
It's in a Dragon magazine. Not sure which one.
2 - and What s "Steadfast Boots"
Arms & Equipment Guide I believe.
3 - "Improved Natural Attack" s possible combined with unarmed Attack, really?
Lots of conflicting opinions here. The official word is: no, it doesn't work... depends on your DM and how well you argue your case.
4 - Gauntlets damage s 1d4, how u can make 8d6 !!?? (Light to Heavy + gold weapon, is 1d4 to 2d6). Unarmed attack damge atacks does not accumulate with Gauntlets.
It's simply not possible. The official words is, gauntlets do gauntlet damage, NOT unarmed strike damage. A monk is not proficient with gauntlets, nor can he flurry with them.
People suggest this by trying to exploit loopholes in the rules - simple as that. No DM with even a rudimentary understanding of the rules will allow it. It's more for flashy sounding builds, than anything practical.
Sorry, for my bad English ;p
The idea is that gauntlets "...lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack". Therefore, though it is a separate weapon and indeed you cannot Flurry with it or are considered proficient in it unless specifically allowed to by some outside feature (such as the Shou Disciple class ability), the important fact that it is considered an unarmed attack with the only exception being that it is lethal damage.
There are those that feel that because a monk enjoys advanced damage on their unarmed strikes that if the gauntlet truly is considered an unarmed attack, that its damage would increase with monk levels due to it being otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Circumstantial support of this exists because gauntlets and unarmed strikes are listed as doing the same damage.
There are many reasons why that interpretation could be incorrect. 'Unarmed attack' is a restricted phrase, and so is 'unarmed strike' (which is actually doubly defined as both a successful unarmed attack and as a weapon in its own right). There is nothing to say that all 'unarmed attacks' (of which a gauntlet is one) are 'unarmed strikes', unless of course the monk class description describing augmented unarmed damage is referring to 'unarmed strike' the definition and not 'unarmed strike' the weapon, since obviously the 'unarmed strike' weapon is not all 'unarmed attacks'.
I could go on. This particular issue is one that is not clear, and comes down to its effects on balance more than any particular reading of the rules, given that multiple interpretations are valid. Much like Improved Natural Attack, you have to discuss it with your DM.
Any other ideas? We meet tonight, so any help would be appreciated.
I think I've decided to go...
1st - Monk 1 - Militia, Psionic Weapon (can use with the glaive or unarmed strike), Psionic Cystal Affinity
2nd - Monk 2
3rd - Monk 3 - Psionic Crystal Containment (I think, focus as move action)
4th - Monk 4
5th - Psychic Warrior 1 - Overchannel
6th - Psychic Warrior 2 - Imp. Natural Attack (if allowed), Talented
7th - Psionic Fist 1
And take Psionic Fist to level 10
Alternately, I could go to level 6 with monk and then switch to Psionic Fist, but then I loose on 2 extra powers and 2 extra feats.
Any other ideas?
Psicrystal Affinity requires at least one manifester level so a first level monk can't take it as a feat; I don't think a psi-like ability counts.
Psicrystal Affinity requires at least one manifester level so a first level monk can't take it as a feat; I don't think a psi-like ability counts.
I checked with CS and they said yes, manifestor levels in psi-like abilities DO count. Which is nice.
Also, my DM is using psionics-magic transparency and is allowing me to use Practiced Caster to boost my manifestor level, so I'm tossing the Overburn combo out and that gives me an extra feat to play with so I can get Psi-Crystal Containment and Psi Meditation earlier.
I checked with CS and they said yes, manifestor levels in psi-like abilities DO count. Which is nice.
Also, my DM is using psionics-magic transparency and is allowing me to use Practiced Caster to boost my manifestor level, so I'm tossing the Overburn combo out and that gives me an extra feat to play with so I can get Psi-Crystal Containment and Psi Meditation earlier.
So now's it more like:
1st - Monk 1 - Speed of Thought, Psionic Weapon (can use with the glaive or unarmed strike), Psionic Cystal Affinity
2nd - Psychic Warrior 1 - Dodge
3rd - Monk 2 - Practiced Manifestor
4th - Psychic Warrior 2 - Psionic Meditation
5th - Monk 3
6th - Monk 4 - Psi-Crystal Containment
7th - Psionic Fist 1
And take 19 levels Psionic Fist
i see alot of people who try to work the VoP monk not happy about it due to not being "epic-ready". while i don't really understand what they're talking about, i do understand the limitations at that point of not having any materical possesions. one big part of this seems to stem from damage reduction, and the lack of versatility from a monk's flurry. i think i may have a solution to this one in an obvious prc: the kensai. just have the kensai focus on their unarmed strikes for the prc abilities, and soon you'll have +5 fists of fury that aren't worth anything to anyone else. it seems weird that i haven't seen this before, actually. even with the decision that the kensai's magic bonuses only apply to "one fist", you can still flurry with it.
small anti-big dude monk (strongheart halfling)
rogue 1, monk 2-13, kensai 14-20
1 Sacred Vow, VoP, Nymph’s Kiss**
2 IUS, Stunning Fist*
3 Weapon Finesse* (Halfling sub), Combat Expertise
6 Weapon Focus: Unarmed,
7 Imp Trip*
9 Underfoot Combat
12 Confound the Big Folk
15 Giantbane
18 empty feat
I didn't include the VoP feats due to the book being at home; will update when i get home. The obvious lack of the feats karmic strike, defensive throw, etc. make this a more aggressive build, which is kind of funny for a small monk
. Plus there's the ability to trip any creature beyond medium without them using their size bonus, and you being able to use your dex bonus.Of course, most people probably don't use the Epic rules at all, and so don't care about this.
I checked with CS and they said yes, manifestor levels in psi-like abilities DO count. Which is nice.
That seems odd to me, considering the following sentence under the description of psicrystals in the SRD:
"Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities."
A level 1 monk has no levels in psionic classes. So does her psicrystal have no abilities? I wouldn't call that a psicrystal; I would call that a rock. Of course, if your DM is OK with it there's no problem.
1 - Where i can find a "Fanged Ring" (what book??)
Dragon 308 page 41
Pressure Point Strike feeds on Stunning Fist attempts. It isn't easy to get, with requirements of BAB +8, Qi strike (magic), Know (arcana) 5, Dex 13, and Wis 13.
However, it has no fewer than 13 individual uses: 6 attack/debuffs, and 7 buff/cures.
Taken individually, none of the attacks are especially amazing. They have a number of limitations, the most signifigant being that they only effect Giants, Humanoids, and Monsterous humanoids.
Together, the versatility is amazing. Say your party is attacked by a ghoul? No problem! With an attack action and a few Stunning Fist attempts, you can remove paralysis. In other words, you can flurry your allies and the ghoul, and get a generally better effect than the party cleric.
A few of the pressure point abilities probably won't see any use: Dragon Soul isn't especially great as a debuff, as few monstrous humanoid/giant/humanoids have SR. As a buff, however, it is great. A monk could concievably use this every round while in battle with a spellcaster, sacrificing only one (his weakest) attack.
Because of the literal interpretation of Emerald Snake, it probably won't get much use. Two failed fort saves is a bit much to ask for, aspecially when you could just paralyze your target.
Even the lowly "White Tiger Array" has a hidden benefit. Because there is no per round limit on this feat, you can use it to effectively Stunning Fist (at a lowered DC) without lmit beyond your per-day.
Overall, I'd reccomend this feat to just about any monk build which isn't focused on being purely 'yuber.'
...ok, you can abuse me a little.
-----So...I'm currently playing a dex based monk in a "Dungeon Crawl" type adventure. Its a small group, with a ranged rogue and a battle cleric. After a few games, I'm beginning to realize how many flanks/flat footed attacks I can get by abusing my tumble, movement rate, and Stunning Fist.
I'm looking for a way to gain "Sneak Attacks" without sacrificing melee ability. I'm currently the "Melee Damage Dealer", and if I can acquire some SA damage then the rogue and I will be very effective.
I also need to mention that I'm the only experienced gamer. One player is my fiance (Rogue), and the other is the DMs wife (Battle Cleric). The reason I haven't dipped into Rogue levels is because of the "Territory" dispute I know will occur. My fiance will probably get pissy if I build my character with Rogue levels, since it'll seem like I'm "pushing her out" of her character's place within the party.
So...this leaves me with a bit of a quandary. I want to acquire some SA without going into the Rogue class (or any Rogue-like class), but i still want to keep my BAB high and remain Melee Centric.
My first thought was Blackguard. Excellent BAB, excellent HD, Sneak Attack, cool class abilities for melee...
Except I'm not evil, and the dynamics of the campaign don't really allow for alignment shifts.
Any thoughts/ideas/flames/abuse would be greatly appreciated. I figure if anyone would know, you guys would.
Satori
Much like Improved Natural Attack, you have to discuss it with your DM.
FYI, even though this has been beaten to death, there's some official news on this from the latest (336) Dragon Magazine's Sage Advice column.
[EDIT]: typically, the SA Q&A from Dragon Magazine is practically cut&pasted into the WotC D&D FAQ. [/EDIT]
The first question in this month's column asks about INA & monk unarmed strikes. The Sage actually comes out and says (at last) that the feat can be taken by monks to get a size boost to their unarmed strike damage. Though The Sage's math on die totals is broken--he shows a 6th level monk going from 1d8->2d6, which is accurate, and says "at 20th, that becomes 3d8" .. which is incorrect, as it should be 4d8 for a 20th level monk, or 3d6 for a 6th level monk / 14th level non-monk.
Due to the intro wording to the feats section of all 3 MM's (to say nothing for SavSpec), there's enough wiggle room for even a core-only rules-strict DM to restrict access to the feats in those books (either by requiring research, roleplay, or flat-out denying). But if you can get it, it's now "official" exactly how it works.
Oh, and on a related topic, CS told me that Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries [Draconomicon] die-type increases were "intended by the author to be size-type increases." I requested that they errata this, or at least clarify it in the FAQ.
Oh, and on a related topic, CS told me that Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries [Draconomicon] die-type increases were "intended by the author to be size-type increases." I requested that they errata this, or at least clarify it in the FAQ.
I caught the Sage Advice thing (updated the first post on the thread to reflect that), but the CustServ response isn't anything I'd put too much stock in. They had said that monks don't get INA (SO HAPPY W/ SAGE OMG OMG OMG), and the examples contained in the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries PrC description show a d8 -> d10 progression.
Though if IotDM gets +2 sizes... nah, I don't see how they could think that was appropriate.
(SO HAPPY W/ SAGE OMG OMG OMG)
*does the OMG dance with everyone*
and the examples contained in the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries PrC description show a d8 -> d10 progression.
Yeah, I pointed that out to them, and was specifically asking how the 2nd increment works if you've already got 2d10. In the exchange, when they suggested using size-steps, I said, "Are you sure it should be worked using the size-category table?" And they said, "This is the intent and what is supposed to be used. The Draconomicon accidentally overlooked this utility when it was designed."
Of course, CS is hardly official, and unless you get the same answer from three different guys, one should not put much stock in it, as you say. But, they said they'd pass along my suggestion for a clarification / errata, either to explain what happens after d12, or to correct the text and have it use size tables instead.
Though if IotDM gets +2 sizes... nah, I don't see how they could think that was appropriate.
He even showed me how a 20 monk / 8 IotDM would go from 2d10 to 6d8. Didn't even bat an eye. ;) If they changed it to size boosts, I wonder if the same would apply for Acolyte of the Fist....
if played right, at 20th, he or she would have greater flurry, +16 bab, and maxed unarmed strike damage. It probably would not be a bad idea to go the 2-weapon route either for that holy avenger in addition to your flaming unarmed strikes ;)
I was thinking...
monk 4 (incudes ki strike magic)
paladin 6 (includes 1st level spells and smite 2/day)
sun soul 10 (lots of other goodies)
bonus feats for monk 4 include: improved unarmed strike, stunning fist, combat reflexes
8 feats (if human) would probably include something like improved natural attack, sun school, athletic, 2-weapon fighting, improved 2-weapon fighting, greater 2-weapon fighting, + 2 feats?
was not sure where best to ask this question, so i also have the question in its own one thread here
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7321216#post7321216
The other races are suboptimal choices, and therefore won't really be dealt with in this guide. Generally, avoiding a STR or CON penalty is the only real guideline.
You missed one ^_^
You should consider the warforged: +2 con, -2 wis, and -2 cha, medium size.
That seems bad, until you account for two things. The first is that you actually get free armor from being warforged, with the adamantine feat (which I would highly advise getting) you get +8 armor and 2/adamantine. What's really cheesy, however, is getting the battlefist (Page 268 of the ebberon campaign setting and increasing your die type and, consider the battlefists ability to use a monk's unarmed strike with it, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to enchant it like a normal weapon. You could make it heavy, gaining another +size, and best of all, this should all stack with fanged ring, expansion (if XPH is allowed) or enlarge person.
Another thing the Warforged gives you is the warforged juggernaut PrC. With them you become a tank, though I'd advise against taking more then 2 levels (free immunity to crits) in it unless your allied with an artifacer, or take a few levels in the class itself.
EDIT: Bleh, just realized this guide isn't up to date with eberron... well, I hopefully gave you something to look for <.<;
On Improved Natural Attack: There's some controversy on whether or not a monk can take this. Consult with your DM before assuming its available in your campaign. Sage Advice (Dragon #336 - Undead) ruled that Imp Natural Attack indeed can be taken by monks and increases their unarmed combat damage. w00t.
Sage Advice was just backed up by the official 3.5 FAQ. Here is the ruling in the FAQ:
Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual, page 304) to improve his unarmed strike?
Yes. As stated on page 41 of the Player’s Handbook, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack.
Barring multiclassing, the earliest a monk could take this feat would be at 6th level (due to the base attack bonus prerequisite), at which point her unarmed strike damage would improve from 1d8 to 2d6 (which represents an average increase of +2.5 points of damage). The same monk at 20th level would deal 3d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike.
Is there any real point to advancing a monk beyond the 11th level? Monk's Belt and Monk's Tattoo give you +9 levels for AC and damage, and it seems like you could gain other/better things by multiclassing.
Yes. Level 12 adds +1 BAB, +1 to all three saving throws and one of the most useful 1/day abilities out there, Abundant Step. That is in fact better than most single classes of anything else and most single feats.
I prefer 12 as an exit point to 11 unless you have some level 20 build that absolutely positively must have 7 levels of something else to work.
I am planning on doing a pure human monk and was wondering what all books I could look at that are 3.5 compatible (meaning no real adjustments just read and select).
It seems that monk is perfect for a human since the feats actually are the real boon.. (no wonder my half elf monks always are trounced).
Anyway, thanks in advance for the wealth of information!
regardless of the exalted feats, the main feats I am thinking of are:
Improved Nat attack
dodge
mobility
Spring Attack
2 weapon fighting
Improved 2 weapon fighting
any suggestions for replacement ?
also, so that I get my numbers correctly:
a 12 lvl monk has a flurry of blows of: 9,9,9,4
so, with 2 weapon fighting: 7,7,7,7,2 (first offhand @ -2)
and Improved 2 weapon fighting: 7,7,2,7,7,2 (another at -5)
is this right or am I math deficient ?
thanks
am thinking of attempting, just for fun, an 11th lvl human VoP monk...
regardless of the exalted feats, the main feats I am thinking of are:
Improved Nat attack
dodge
mobility
Spring Attack
2 weapon fighting
Improved 2 weapon fighting
any suggestions for replacement ?
Check out the Cobra Variant from UA. You get the whole dodge/mobility tree as your bonus feat. Hey, since I'm being lazy, could you post your final build for your 11th level char? I'd love to see it, as I have to make a similar build for my game...
I think you have an impossible to create character on your hands..
Your Base flurry at 11th level is 8,8,8,3, with TWF it becomes 6,6,6,6,1, and with ITWF, becomes 6,6,6,6,1,1, where the bolded are your "off-hand" attacks
At CL one, I assume you take Sacred Vow and VoP with your CL1 and Human feat selections.
At Monk1, you can choose from Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist
At Monk2, you can choose from CR or Defl Arrows
At Monk6, you can choose from Impr D-arm or Impr Trip
You can take TWF at your 3rd CL feat slot, and INA at 6th (I think)
Due to prereqs, you can only get ITWF with your Character Level 9 feat slot.
On getting Dodge, Mob and SA, by 11th level, I dont know how you will do it.... with only 2 disadvantages, I can see the first 2, but unsure as to the SA
cheez is dropping 2 MONK levels for the SAINT template at 10th and 11th level... IT synergizes very very well, and has some tasty advantages.
XTREM CHEEZ is doing that, as well as reading all of you Stat Boosting books and using your sparring dummy (to get 10' combat step movement) before VoP at 1st level... but requires a lot of DM approval
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike*, Dodge*, Sacred vow, Vow of Poverty (Human Bonus Feat)
Monk 2: Mobility*
Monk 3: TWF
Monk 6: Spring Attack*, Improved Natural Attack
Monk 9: ITWF
Monk 12: Open Feat
*Denotes Monk Bonus Feat.
I LOVE the Cobra variant so it will be:
11 lvl human Cobra variant VoP monk
Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike*, Dodge*, Sacred vow, Vow of Poverty (Human Bonus Feat)
VoP 1 Bonus Exalted feat: Intuitive Attack
Monk 2: Mobility*
VoP 2 Bonus Exalted feat: Sanctify Martial Strike
Monk 3: TWF
VoP 4 Bonus Exalted feat: ??????
Monk 6: Spring Attack*, Improved Natural Attack
VoP 6 Bonus Exaltedfeat: ??????
VoP 8 Bonus Exalted feat: Sancify Natural Attack
Monk 9: ITWF
VoP 10 Bonus Exalted feat: Sanctify Ki Strike
Monk 12: Open Feat ????????
VoP 12 Bonus Exalted feat: Holy Ki strike
dodge - mobility - spring attack gained as bonus Monk feats replacing the players handbook bonus monk feats
also I COULD take 2 flaws for the 2 extra feats....DM will allow it
any suggestions?
Intuitive to VoPL4,
Touch of Golden Ice at VoP6 and at L12 take Ability Focus, ToGI
I still recommend the Saint template with a Monk - the aura is impressive, and the Stat synergies are unbelievable...
thanks
can you name some good feats for making a uber grappler?
I've never really paid too much attention to grappling so its hard for me to know where to start. apart from obvious ones like improved grapple, choke hold, and earths embrace? no restriction on material. and any recommendations on PrC's to increase grappling effectiveness?
i know that BAB, size, and str are important in grappling, so knowing that, is it wiser to go human fighter with the jotunbrud feat or like a half ogre [insert class] where i get size and increase in strength?
Bear Totem Barbarian 5 (UA variant) gives a plus 5 on all grapple checks. The power Grip of Iron gives you a +4 bonus and you can always use those Psy warrior levels for psyonic feats, like scionic fist when doing unarmed damage.
Ring that makes you a size cat. higher, that would be huge if you start with a large race.
Earth Embrace is a good feat, also worth looking at is the razor armor in the BoVD.
Changeling needs to be added to the race lists because of the warshaper Prc, for which a 1-3 levels are awesome.
Anyway, heres the basics of the monk tank build im attempting at the moment:
race:half minotaur mineral-warrior(la buy off) changeling
class levels:monk11/warshaper3/fighter2/shoudisciple5
Size:large
Stats:+18str,+10con,-2cha,-4int (priority goes to con for HP)
Defensive:+5NA,DR8/adamantine
Important Feats:aberrant blood, combat reflexes, improved trip,extendable limbs, hold the line
Im level 13 at the moment & its going well. My HP is through the roof & i have enough reach (20ft) to be an effective tripper.
Skarn as a race, especially because they get really nifty racial substitution abilities (the 10th level ability in particular is strictly better than the standard one), the Spinemeld Warrior class which gives you lots of stuff to increase the power of your spines, and several soulmelds which really help monks.
* Mauling Bracers: These help not only with tripping, but if bound to your hands, improve your unarmed damage by two points per point of essentia.
* Sphinx Claws: Most monks do not have totemist soul melds, but the ones that do can get this. It allows them to charge and make a full attack with unarmed strikes.
Can anyone here help with feats, prestige classes etc?
1. Improved unarmed combat
2. power attack
3. improved sunder
4. eagleclaw attack
5. fists of iron
6. improved natural attack
Anything else? How about an official PRC?
Need...answers...to...inane...questions
must...push...giant...red...button...
I don't want this thread to die. I am a newb, tho, so I have some questions?... What is a bump? A sticky thread? Most importantly, what is the duration of the psionics' expansion power?
I don't want this thread to die. I am a newb, tho, so I have some questions?... What is a bump? A sticky thread? Most importantly, what is the duration of the psionics' expansion power?
Bump is when you post to a thread purely to get it back to the first page of the forum (so more people will see it and it will likely get more responses), in this case the Character Optimization forum. Common courtesy is to allow 24 hours from the time the last message was posted before bumping the thread.
A Sticky Thread is a thread that the forum moderators (WizO's) have selected as a sticky thread so it always stays on the top of the first page of the forum (right now there are two sticky threads in the character optimization forum, the Important Threads Index and the FAQ).
Duration on Expansion is 1 round/level as seen in the SRD here.
Must...keep...thread...alive
Need...answers...to...inane...questions
must...push...giant...red...button...
4 8 15 16 23 42
I am trying to make the ultimate sundering monk.
Can anyone here help with feats, prestige classes etc?
Here is an old post I made about making a monk geared towards smashing objects. It could be done alot better now, but maybe you'll get an idea or two out of it. Also, there are some things in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (and SRD) that will help you. Particularly, there is a power (or feat, I forget) that lets you halve the hardness of an object you sunder, and powers that increase your damage (Expansion, etc).
Goliath/1
Monk/3 (Still Mind, two bonus feats)
Fighter/2 (two bonus feats)
Shou Disciple/4 (two bonus feats, simple flurry)
Shintao Monk/3 (two bonus feats, immune to stunning)
Pious Templar/1 (mettle)
Singh Rager/4 (rage, pounce)
Take True Believer and posit the existence of a god of beating people senseless
which gives WF: Unarmed Strike. Equipment includes the Minis Handbook Belt of Wow That's Expensive (200k, +6 to all stats), the Bahamut Gauntlets of the Talon, and a Monk's Belt. If I have my math right, that's the damage of a 20th level monk. Add INA and a fanged ring. Plan would be to use a large longspear (simple flurry, I just can't see the place for another level of Shou Disciple), Combat Reflexes, and Karmic Strike. A longspear isn't great, but it's better than nothing. And when he gets next to someone then the smackdown begins.
Feat suggestions? I definitely will use the following: Karmic Strike, Leap Attack, Power Attack. I'm unsure whether it's worth it following the Stunning Fist chain... no idea what we'll be facing.
A 9th-level monk with +4 strength and maxed jump skill and no other bonuses could do a standing long jump of 28 feet without rolling the dice. A 20th-level monk with +4 strength could jump 51 feet without rolling. If you don't feel like tumbling through them, assuming a roll of 9, you could jump straight over medium creatures and not be hit unless they have 10' reach. He could also jump straight up 15' and land on his feet, or jump and reach a ledge with his hands 25' up, without rolling.
3rd level wizard/sorceror spell (can you say potion? Can you say relatively easy-to-use wand with a few ranks in Use Magic Device?)
1hr/lvl. Increases the damage of a bludgeoning melee weapon by one size category per 4 caster levels, up to an maximum of 5 categories or up to an effective size of Colossal. It even says to refer to size/damage table in the DMG page 28.
Probably the most broken spell I've seen in a while, as our DM has banned it specificly (no other banned spells in the campaign yet).
I have a human monk and I want to try to build a grappling monk. Would you guys give me the low down on a monk grappler feats, weapons, etc. up to lvl 20 no prestige classes pls just 20 lvls of monk. Thanks.
I play a monk that grapples a lot. A monk is a pretty good grappler, especially now that he can translate flurry into more chances to succeed per the latest FAQ. (strongly implied, anyway...check with your GM). He is not the best possible grappler...that would be a full BAB class that has access to reckless rage and maybe shapeshifting powers. But he will be good enough to grapple lots of stuff in his career and have a real impact on the battlefield.
#1, prioritize strength ahead of wisdom. This is a hard call on a monk build, but it pays dividends.
#2, you want improved trip at level 6. At least if your DM believes the FAQ, prone folks are at a -4 to grapple checks.
#3, you must have something effective to do when you can't grapple an enemy (due to size, due to things like freedom of movement, due to simply too damn many hit dice+size boosts from advancement). CR increases on big strong monsters aren't your friend. They gain +3-+4 on the grapple check per CR, you don't. They gain +8 if they increase a size category, and that's only a 1 CR boost.
You will note that high strength helps with #2 and #3. It powers everything you do as a grappling monk...flurry hit rates, flurry damage, tripping, grappling. It also helps you jump, climb and swim, which lets you get to the guy who needs to be grappled. (Chasing the abolith down the tunnel and grappling it to a standstill got our party 30,000gp in equipment it was running off with...)
Most of what you need to be a decent monk grappler is summed up in those three statements. Most grappling feats are suboptimal and reaping mauler just sucks. The big exception is close quarters combat. You want grappling to be on your terms, not on the other guys terms. The grapplemonsters start getting pretty big, with grapple checks unbeatable without this feat in the level 8+ range.
Other considerations: Size large helps everything. It helps grapple, it helps trip, it adds a significant boost to your unarmed damage. If you can be a race that makes you "large" without a LA hit, go for it. Otherwise beg, borrow, steal enlarge potions, enlarge scrolls, enlarge wands, custom magic items of enlarge anything so that you can start the fight bigger, or make yourself bigger (potions). If you don't mind the social implications, Enlarge can be made permanent, but that's further than I'd normally go.
If you are starting the campaign later in life, level 10ish it is possible to be a decent grappler without a high strength, by getting polymorphed. Being polymorphed is kind of nice anyway - flurry and nat weapons can be used together, you often get nice nat armor and constitution increases (polymorph is still unchanged, unlike wildshape, you get more hp) and some monsters have nice secondary grapple abilities, like the Annis Hag rake ability or the Grey Render rend. In my case, my monk is stronger than anything he can turn into, even not enlarged, but that'll change at level 12 when dire bear becomes possible. Mostly I do polymorph to grey render as a defensive thing, to get the nat armor and +10 to my constitution.
Also...grappling isn't about doing damage really (although with the latest faq ruling implying you can flurry/grapple, it may not be hurting you much in that respect) it is about taking attacks away from the enemy and restricting his mobility. Usually pinning someone is better than doing damage. Sometimes move the grapple (past all your BDF buddies) is better than doing damage or pinning.
In a grapplemonk build, the key to damage is flurrying, setting up full attacks and stacking bonuses on them. Get GMW or GMF on your fist. Encourage the cleric to rack prayer or rightous wrath fo the faithful. Make friends with bards. Get alchemical weapon retainers if your DM allows them. Beg for spikes or fires of purity....you get a lot of attacks, most at top BAB iteration - each bonus added gets multiplied . And unlike the "spring attack weapon finesse, my damage sucks" monks it actually hurts when you hit things.
Finally, grappling makes you vulnerable. It's better when you outnumber the enemy, so taking yourself and the other guy out of the fight means the party can gang up on the rest with a concentration of force advantage (or gank the guy you are holding, so you can hold someone else). It is a team tactic, or a one vs one tactic. It is not recommended if outnumbered unless you don't respect the attacks of your enemy, or you DO greatly respect the attacks of whomever you're trying to hold down.
2. There is some 3.0 PRC that lets you make any weapon a monk weapon. I think I have heard rumors of Faerun regional feat that lets you define a weapon as monk weapon, or maybe eberron. Such things exist, but not in any of the books I own. Pretty sure there is no magical enhancement that will do.
3. I tend to use enlarge potions or rarely polymorph from friendly caster to get reach for flurry (giant octopus can be fun, even though str and con is low and being aquatic can be awkward in air. 11 secondary nat attacks and one tentacle flurry with 20' reach...). I tend to use the spiked chain strictly for AOO's and single-attack-after-move trip attempts.
Does anyone know of a way to get a Monk Reach Weapon, or a way to turn a weapon into a Monk weapon with magic (like a weapon enhancment), or to flurry with light armor?
What about the exotic Longstaff from Complete Adventurer?
SpartanMD, thats not a reach weapon. nice try though
*edit*
Found out how to do it. In dragon 331, aparently their is a feat that if you have weapon focus in a pol arm, you can take Pole Fighting and then flurry with a polearm.
thanks solbergb
SpartanMD, thats not a reach weapon. nice try though
.
You sure? I'm at work, so I can't check. What is the advantage of a longstaff? I thought it still did d6 but was a reach weapon.
Maybe I'm wrong.....
WRESTLING: Improved Grapple. Jotunbrud. Hammerblow.. ..blah blah.. ..Hammerblow is included because a grapple is a prime time to use both your hands, since you can't Flurry in a grapple.
You have to be human to take the Jotunbrud feat and you have to be a dwarf to take the Hammerblow feat. Even if you convince your DM to let you play a siamese twin dwarf-human monk originating from two different regions you're still only allowed to take one regional feat, so.. no.
Also, you would have gotten a -4 penalty on such an attack since you're not "damaging your opponent" but rather "attacking your opponent with a weapon". You would be more stable and harder to trip since you'd have more legs and could perhaps convince your DM to let you take the Multiattack feat. Unless you and your twin have separate brains of course and choose different classes. :D
Shou Disciple.. ..able to Flurry with any martial weapon.
Well, then you wouldn't be able to flurry with an Exotic Heavy Weapon now, would you? ;) The entry for Shou Disciple reads "A Shou Disciple gains the ability to use any light melee weapon for his flurry of blows.."
Finally, I would not let a player take Ability Focus (stunning fist) since stunning fist doesn't fall under "special attack". Do you have a source that says otherwise? If so, feel free to correct me.
Well, then you wouldn't be able to flurry with an Exotic Heavy Weapon now, would you? ;) The entry for Shou Disciple reads "A Shou Disciple gains the ability to use any light melee weapon for his flurry of blows.."
Evidently, you didn't read the very next sentence, which says that at 5th level, they can flurry with "any melee weapon". This, I think, would include exotic melee weapons, light or heavy or whatever.
Finally, I would not let a player take Ability Focus (stunning fist) since stunning fist doesn't fall under "special attack". Do you have a source that says otherwise? If so, feel free to correct me.
Page 15 of the current FAQ. The entry dates back at least
You still can't Flurry in a grapple, with or without the penalty. That's not the issue. The issue is, if you're going to be in a grapple as a matter of course for your character concept, since you can't Flurry you may want to consider an alternative form of attack that still utilizes your unarmed combat damage.
I'm not interested in 'fun to play' builds. Any build is 'fun to play'. Not so many builds are 'mechanically superior'. The Lords of Madness build is more of a lark where I wanted to see what I could do with their silly feats. Anyone that bothers to play an Aasimar with several lousy feats has already decided that they're not interested in optimizing, so why include it in an optimization guide?
Thank you for sharing your opinions on Ability Focus. I'll defer to the FAQ.
Seriously, the Aasimar pally-monk-sun soul-build is quite good since it covers all the weak spots of monks rather nicely. Ranged attacks tend to be a b'tch when playing a monk and here you get the ability to not only stay away from mobs that would nibble on you for breakfast but you also gain the ability to blast the living b-jesus out of them without range increment penalties. And look at the stack for effective caster level for it! Can you say no to that kinda Searing light? ;) On top of that you get lay on hands, bless, protection from evil (which you never seem to use when not needed due to the detect evil ability), immunity to disease and charisma bonus on saves and whatnot. It's kinda optimized really. Not as niched as the other builds I've read about, but still very easy to pull off and few DMs would stop you from playing it in a real game.
A discussion about the definition of optimization might be in place. I'd say it's the art of making things fit as well as possible together rather than stacking damage dice for one special attack. Ie I could easily create a weaker character that would whoop the ass of any "great-throw-infinite-damage-loop"-monk. ;)
Seriously, the Aasimar pally-monk-sun soul-build is quite good since it covers all the weak spots of monks rather nicely. Ranged attacks tend to be a b'tch when playing a monk and here you get the ability to not only stay away from mobs that would nibble on you for breakfast but you also gain the ability to blast the living b-jesus out of them without range increment penalties. And look at the stack for effective caster level for it! Can you say no to that kinda Searing light? ;) On top of that you get lay on hands, bless, protection from evil (which you never seem to use when not needed due to the detect evil ability), immunity to disease and charisma bonus on saves and whatnot. It's kinda optimized really. Not as niched as the other builds I've read about, but still very easy to pull off and few DMs would stop you from playing it in a real game.
It's actually a lot simpler IMO to go with the Drunken Zen Archer (or teetotaler zen archer), or even just a high-dex monk (like the AoO freaks).
A discussion about the definition of optimization might be in place. I'd say it's the art of making things fit as well as possible together rather than stacking damage dice for one special attack. Ie I could easily create a weaker character that would whoop the ass of any "great-throw-infinite-damage-loop"-monk. ;)
It wouldn't be a "weaker character" then, would it? But if you think you can, please do. I'd love to see it.
P.S.
Mean, have you been gone a while? If you have, welcome back. Otherwise, I'm unobservant. Bah!
It's actually a lot simpler IMO to go with the Drunken Zen Archer (or teetotaler zen archer), or even just a high-dex monk (like the AoO freaks).
But my monk can fly. Nonmagically. And darn good too.
It wouldn't be a "weaker character" then, would it? But if you think you can, please do. I'd love to see it.
True. It would not be a "weaker" character. But then again that of course depends on what you consider strength in a build. If it has the ability to deal immense amounts of damage in a specific situation or if it is well rounded out and has a way to tackle almost any situation it faces.
So which monk build should I try and break then? Give me a link or preferably a complete stat sheet. Of course it might take a while for me to figure out a way but I will at least give it a try.
) And I don't mean Monk 20//Druid 20 I'm talking about the ultimate Gestalt monk. With Monk 20 on one side and monk improving classes & PrCs on the otherside so that the sole focus on both sides of the Gestalt are for the purposes of being the ultimate Gestalt monk.
How about Monk 20//Fighter 2/ Paladin 3/ Kensai 10/ Tattooed Monk 5 or something like that.
Cheers,
Necro
Anyone got any good Gestalt Monk builds? (Sorry if this has been already addressed so many pages in this thread
Not any fleshed out. The trouble with a Gestalt Monk is that a Monk is sort of a hybrid class already. I imagine that playing a kitted-out fighting monk combined with a caster is the way to go, though you have to assume that you're playing without the class-swapping restrictions normally placed on monks (otherwise, this can still be done with an illumian).
Your major problem is going to be the Monk restriction on swapping classes. The Ascestic feats from CAdv would help a lot. Illumians, Half-Fey with Diverse Background (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) and other methods help.
Here's an example arcanist, with copious Monk class flip-flopping:
Illumian Half-Fey
1 Fighter/Wizard - Diverse Background (Monk)
2 Monk/Wizard
3 Monk/Wizard
4 Monk/Wizard
5 Havoc Mage/Wizard
6 Monk/Havoc Mage
7 Havoc Mage/Wizard
8 Monk/Havoc Mage
9 Monk/Wizard
10 Enlightened Fist/Wizard
11 Monk/Havoc Mage
12 Monk/Enlightened Fist
13 Monk/Enlightened Fist
14 Monk/Enlightened Fist
15 Monk/Enlightened Fist
16 Monk/Enlightened Fist
17 Monk/Enlightened Fist
From level 5 on you can cast one (effectively) Quickened Spell a turn as you execute a full attack. At 13th level you can cast 2 free (effectively) Quickened Spells a turn as you execute full attacks, though one has to be a Touch range spell. You won't get a full flurry until level 15.
Mean, have you been gone a while? If you have, welcome back. Otherwise, I'm unobservant. Bah!
I don't post when I'm not playing DnD. I've spent the last few months playing White Wolf's OOP Street Fighter RPG instead. I've started coming back to the boards because we're gearing up to play DnD again, and I need to brush up my talents.
Anyone And I don't mean Monk 20//Druid 20 I'm talking about the ultimate Gestalt monk. With Monk 20 on one side and monk improving classes & PrCs on the otherside so that the sole focus on both sides of the Gestalt are for the purposes of being the ultimate Gestalt monk.
:P
You edited your message.
:P
You edited your message.
Sorry
I was seeking just a “pure monk(ish)” gestalt build but I was bit unclear at first.
I hear the PHB-2 has some nice options for the Monk, that make it more worthwile.
Could you tell a bit more about this or use this in your original post?
Thanks !
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=645814
check it out ^_^
prototype00
Better to be able to take Full Attacks, use ITWF, Karmic Strike and Double Hit than to increase damage on your AoOs. I guarantee that you'll be more versatile and capable of a much higher damage output.
Something worth mentioning. In the back of the PHB II, on the section for putting together quick characters, they have Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed) as one of the recomended feats.
You're darn tootin' they have that.
I wonder who gave them that idea.
You're darn tootin' they have that.
I wonder who gave them that idea.
I'm not saying that you didn't have the idea first. I just figured it would be something worth mentioning in this section.
On Improved Natural Attack: There's some controversy on whether or not a monk can take this.
I figure that having it actually printed out in a book might help quel some of the controversy.
I figure that having it actually printed out in a book might help quel some of the controversy.
The Official FAQ did a good job of that a while ago, which is why it hasn't come up since (except from people who haven't read the FAQ ;)).
PHB lists that with a unarmed monk there is no such thing as an offhand attack
why would you pick TWF as a monk using unarmed strike?
PHB lists that with a unarmed monk there is no such thing as an offhand attack
People used to fight about this endlessly, and finally Wizards of the Coast clarified it. Flurry of Blows and Two-Weapon Fighting stack. It was clarified in the 3.5 game FAQ, which can be found in the rules section on the main wizards website. Here is one of the sections that covers it:
Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?
A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.
Has anyone crunched the numbers between ITWF or snap kick? Both offer an additional attack. ITWF confers a -5 penality on the one single attack and from what I have read on the Boards (I do not own ToB), snap kick confers a -2 penality to all attacks. Which is better for a monk?
After reading all 32 pages I do not remember, though I am sure it has been addressed, does the monk's flurry ability depend upon the BAB of the character or the level of the monk? Does the monk have to be 5th level or the character have +3 BAB to get the better penality of only -1 to hit when Flurrying?
After reading all 32 pages I do not remember, though I am sure it has been addressed, does the monk's flurry ability depend upon the BAB of the character or the level of the monk? Does the monk have to be 5th level or the character have +3 BAB to get the better penality of only -1 to hit when Flurrying?
Five levels of monk to get the -1 to flurry penalty. The flurry penalty is based on monk levels only and not related to BAB.
Very good thread. I have finished reading all 32 pages.
Wow, that's an impressive feat unto itself.
I need help! I'd appreciate any help optimizing my monk. Heavy on AoO and such so far.
House Rules: extra feat every 5 levels in addition to regular feats. No XP penalty for multiclassing. Stat rolls purposefully high.
I plan to go monk 1-6 the Shou Disciple 7-11 then monk again from 12-20. I know this is suboptimal but ,hey, thats why I'm asking for help here! I've also been told to look at the Monk of the Long Death from the Player's guide to Faerun, but haven't had a chance yet.
Books: everything but exalted deeds
My build so far:
Race: Goliath Class: Monk Lvl: 4 Lvl Adjustment: +1
str 17 +4racial +1lvl = 22 =+6 mod
dex 17 - 2 racial = 15 = +2 mod
Con 17 +2racial = 19 = +4 mod
Int 15 = +2 mod
Wis 17 = +3 mod
Cha 14 = +2 mod
+9attack
+7/+7on flurry
2d6+6 damage(goliaths are supposed to have a 'powerful build' and can wield weapons one size larger than them, I don't know if this translates to unarmed or not)
I plan to go monk 1-6 the Shou Disciple 7-11 then monk again from 12-20. I know this is suboptimal, but hey thats why I'm asking for help here!
Feats: again extra Feats every 5th level (11 feats!!!)
Monk feats yada yada... Unarmed, flurry, stunning fist, Wis to ac...
1)Dodge
2)Combat reflexes(monk)
3)weapon focus (unarmed)
5)mobility
6)combat expertise, improved trip(monk)
9)Elusive target
10)Karmic strike
12)Pain touch
15)two weapon fighting
15)improved two weapon fighting
18)double hit
20) ... .. . yeah, I started improvising @ level 12
I know this can be switched around to make it more optimal and such, I'm just not sure how to go about that. I'm pretty sure the earliest I could take Shou Disciple would be level 6. Again, I'm open to adding any other Monk-like classes in there for flavor.
Also, Decisive Strike worth it? I can see use for that and Flurry of Blows
Thanks for the help!
The Dragon Desendant is a new monk PrC from Dragon Magic.
It's easy to qualify for: Conc. 8 ranks, still mind class feature, unarmed strike, combat reflexes, dragontouched feat [any chromatic dragon] (CHA 11, basically draconic heritage for non-sorcerers).
HD, BAB, and saving throws (except reflex) are the same as the monk and it advances monk unarmed damage, AC, and speed.
It gains 5 swappable features (initally a standard action to swap, then a swift action action at level 6, can use two features simultaneously at level 10).
Utimately (at level 10):
1) + 3 insight bonus to attack and damge, fists overcome magic and chaotic DR, immunity to fear
2) +10 insight bonus to hide and move silently, 5d6 sneak attack
3) a 5d6 60 ft. ray attack (spell-like)
4) +5 insight bonus to saving throws, DR 10/Chaotic
5) +5 insight bonus to AC, a better version of karmic strike
remember: only 1 feature at a time (2 at level 10)
The nice sneak attack works great with stunning fist and a flurry.
The ray gives the monk a viable ranged attack.
The respectable DR increases the monks ability to exchange blows round for round and the better karmic strike (no AC penalties) is wonderful.
It's probably the first 10 level monk PrC worth taking.
same LA
4 monster levels required instead of 6, get to class levels sooner
Attributes: The centaur has +8, +4, +4, -2, +2, +0, the minotaur has +8, +0 +4, -4, +0, -2. The difference is centaur have 4 more dex and 2 more wis, both nice for a monk, and 2 more cha and int, which doens't make as much difference, but definitely doesn't hurt.
Centaurs are faster, and can for a cheap 3000 gp get horseshoes of speed to make them even faster.
Why are Centaurs brushed over without even a reference? For pete's sake, they are actually good aligned, which means they can be used in many campaigns that a Minotaur could not due to RP reasons.
I think people are using Half-Minotaur template from Dragon magazine, not Minotaur itself. From what I've heard, the template is simply broken (giving you a huge boost in strength and large size for only +1 LA).
Or the tauric templete. Can get a boatload of abilities for minimal LA.
Tell me about it!
For absurdity
a Tauric Lammasu/Human Monk 2/Sacred fist 8 (ECL 20):
-Human abilities (feat and skill points)
-Large size
-Fly speed 60 ft. with avarage maneuverability
-BAB 17
-Casts as 13th level Cleric (lots of good buffs)
-Unarmed damage as 10th level Monk (items and Superior unarmed damage can easily get it to 20)
-60 ft. Darkvision, 10 ft. Blindsense and low-light vision
-Two claw attacks
-Pounce
-Two rake attacks
-Constant Magic circle against evil
-Natural armor bonus of +10
-Strenght +12, Dexterity +2, Constitution +6
Slap in Vow of poverty and you get pure ownage!
-Human abilities (feat and skill points)
-Large size
-Fly speed 60 ft. with avarage maneuverability
-BAB 17
-Casts as 13th level Cleric (lots of good buffs)
-Unarmed damage as 10th level Monk (items and Superior unarmed damage can easily get it to 20)
-60 ft. Darkvision, 10 ft. Blindsense and low-light vision
-Two claw attacks
-Pounce
-Two rake attacks
-Constant Magic circle against evil
-Natural armor bonus of +10
-Strenght +12, Dexterity +2, Constitution +6
Slap in Vow of poverty and you get pure ownage!
Did anyone notice they reprinted the Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic? Grants Improved Natural Attack (and Improved Unarmed Strike feats) for only 10k gp.
Also in the same book is the Dark Clasp. 3x / day get an extra 5' reach as a swift action w/ one attack for only 2200 gp. Great for trippy monks.
Did anyone notice they reprinted the Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic? Grants Improved Natural Attack (and Improved Unarmed Strike feats) for only 10k gp.
Which is a nerf. IIRC, before it granted a size increase on damage which would have stacked with Improved Natural Attack.
Which is a nerf. IIRC, before it granted a size increase on damage which would have stacked with Improved Natural Attack.
True, but it frees a feat to use Superior Unarmed Strike instead.
Which is a nerf. IIRC, before it granted a size increase on damage which would have stacked with Improved Natural Attack.
Before, it did Con damage.
Where this gets really ridiculous is with the Heavy weapons from Magic of Faerun. See, a Heavy weapon is treated as one size category larger for damage, but it also increases the size of the weapon by a category. Noting that a Gauntlet is a light weapon that is treated as an unarmed strike, a Heavy Gauntlet is a one-handed weapon that does unarmed strike +1 size damage. If you really want to get ridiculous, you can Monkey Grip a Heavy Gauntlet for +2 sizes to unarmed damage. But I digress.
At first glance, I thought this was brilliant, so I put it past my DM....who pointed out that, weather I liked it or not, the PH shows that gauntlets actually do a specified amount of damage which happens to be the exact same amount as an unarmed strike. He used this to justify his belief that a heavy gauntlet simple does more damage based on the gauntlet's base damage, and had nothing to do with a monk's unarmed strike damage.
Are we SURE that this little trick actually works?
This trick works poorly where I play my monk (a place with multiple GM's that tend to conservative interpretations) to the point where I wouldn't bother with gaunts at all. Some in the campaign disagree and are willing to invest time/resources for when it works. I prefer easier battles such as "can I stick weapon capsule reatainers on my fist?"
Another option, if you have an old copy of Sword and Fist, is the Ward Cestus exotic weapon from that book. It explicitly does "unarmed strike" damage, to the point of its damage being listed as "*" in the weapon damage table.
Note that the same table has a damage listed for unarmed strikes; I doubt he also rules that this table overrides the increased damage you derive from Monk levels, so why would the gauntlet damage stay the same.
Another option, if you have an old copy of Sword and Fist, is the Ward Cestus exotic weapon from that book. It explicitly does "unarmed strike" damage, to the point of its damage being listed as "*" in the weapon damage table.
Good call on the ward cestus. My DM tends to be hyper conservative one some things, and utterly oblivious to others. Generally, if it's me presenting the idea, it gets shot down. If it's someone else, it gets passed. So, if he fights too hard about the gauntlets, the ward cestus should set things back on my side.
You'll all get a chuckle out of this too. I sent my question to CustServ. See if you can make any sense of the reply, because I don't get it at all...
See, a Heavy weapon is treated as one size category larger for damage, but it also increases the size of the weapon by a category. Noting that a Gauntlet is a light weapon that is treated as an unarmed strike, a Heavy Gauntlet is a one-handed weapon that does unarmed strike +1 size damage. If you really want to get ridiculous, you can Monkey Grip a Heavy Gauntlet for +2 sizes to unarmed damage.
The implication is that a monk with heavy gauntlets does unarmed damage as if he were one size larger than he truely is. On one hand, punching someone in the face after dipping your fist in concrete would seemingly hurt much more than a simple punch.
So my question is, does this really work as implied?
Their response:
Both effects treat the weapon as one size category larger, so the size effect only increases once, because both are looking at the weapons actual size to treat it as one size larger. These two effects do not stack.
Huh?
**********update**********
I asked for clarification and got this:
The entry in Magic of Faerun does not actually state that the Heavy Weapons are "treated as a size category larger for damage'. The entry says that you deal increased damage, as per the damage table, for wielding a Heavy Metal weapon. With Monkey Grip, you can wield a weapon as if you were one size category larger. So you could wield a Large heavy gauntlet and it would do 1d6 of damage, (a normal Gauntlet does a d3, a large gauntlet does a d4, a large heavy gauntlet would do 1d6).
One thing you need to understand, is that a monk can deal gauntlet damage or his unarmed strike monk damage. The two do not work together. So in a flurry of blows, you would not be able to use the gauntlets damage because it is not a monk weapon.
So, I guess if you can punch for 2d10 at lvl 20, you only do a d3 if you put your fist in a glove....
I see now why people on this board avoid CustServ like the plague.
I've read the thread, so I have some idea of the right direction to take. I've never played a monk, and haven't played the game much in general, so I'd appreciate the assistance of the wise and learned in the arts of monk-fu.
Thanks!
EDIT: Hmm might have been a good idea to read the board FAQ first. Disregard my ignorant newbishness, I shall make my request in a unique thread.
I've started the creation of a Level 7 Vow of Poverty monk. I've got some pretty good statistics, and I really dig the idea of having no items, but I worry about the level 18+ range.
Since the posting of the initial guide, has there been any changes that would allow monk characters to get a Cold Iron unarmed strike? Since I have a sorc. in my party, I don't worry about flying, but we're doing a Hell run, so I need that Cold Iron and devil-killing abilities.
Current stats:
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 15
Cha: 15
(and that's with all the att. bonuses for my current monk level with VoP)
Suggestions? thoughts?
Argent fist from Faiths of Eberron will give you the ability to overcome silver damage reduction if you need that.
prototype00
EDIT: Damn, I forgot the VoP! Hmm, an Artificer could probably use that infusion that gives weapons enhancements to make your fists Metalline.
Now I'm not sure a monk's fists qualify for metalline, just as bludgeoning weapons don't qualify for vorpal.
prototype00
However, enchanting your armor only works for the purpose of enchanting armor and does nothing for your attacks. This has already been stated in the errata. So Dragon's idea, while possessing merit, does not strictly work.
prototype00
I was hoping to stay as a human, however, for the extra feats granted at first level (with VoP you get an extra Exalted feat on top of everything else). However, the benefits of the Warforged with the tracery may outweigh any extra Exalted feats I grab.
Any hope with the human template?
EDIT: So the Warforged, even with cold iron and silver tracery, couldn't bypass DR?
prototype00
Dragon is right though, you could take both feats, and you would be able to overcome both DR/silver and DR/cold iron. DR/Good is hard though.
prototype00
If, however, you had armor spikes on the armor you could enchant the spikes as a weapon ... but you'd pay for that separately.
I am currently creating a new character for a game I am playing in. I am making an 11th level character and have decided on a Cleric 4 / Monk 4 / Sacred Fist 3. My DM allows me to pretty much get whatever gear I want, as long as it doesn't exceed the 1/4 of my total wealth rule. So that means I can't go over 16,500 gp per item. Anyways, one of the items I gave my Sacred Fist is a Monk's Belt (DMG pg. 248). I also gave him the Improved Natural Attack feat (MM pg. 304). Both of these improve his unarmed damage (which is great for a sacred fist who is forbidden to use weapons). My question is whether or not these will stack. From my calculations, I believe my monk will do 3d6 damage with an unarmed strike. This just seems a tad bit high to me as our greatsword wielding fighter only gets 2d6 per attack (not counting enchantments and what not). So is this correct?
Also, I outfitted him with Sandals of the Tiger's Leap (Sword & Fist pg. 77). This gives him double damage on a charge on account of it being a "flying kick". I know this text is really just flavor, but since this item is 3.0 and was never updated, I am curious to see if it is too overpowered. I see that in Complete Warrior there is a new feat called "Flying Kick" (pg. 99) that basically gives you the same benefits as the sandals. However, it only gives 1d12 extra damage. So I am wondering if I should point this out to my DM and see if he wants to change the effect of the sandals to just give my character the benefit of the feat by wearing them, or if the sandals are fine the way they are.
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated !!!!!
I was hoping to stay as a human, however, for the extra feats granted at first level (with VoP you get an extra Exalted feat on top of everything else). However, the benefits of the Warforged with the tracery may outweigh any extra Exalted feats I grab.
Any hope with the human template?
It can be done, but it'll take you two feats, a one-level dip, and a GM willing to let you use the Tome of Extreme Twinkery (aka the Book of the Nine Swords). But on the plus side, you'll be able to overcome any DR by the end of it.
The secret lies in harnessing the power of the Stone Dragon discipline, and the Tactical Feat "Shard of Granite".
Stone Power
Prerequisites: STR 13, one Stone Dragon maneuver
Benefit: Take a penalty (up to -5, but not more than your BAB) when you attack, full attack, or use a Stone Dragon strike. You gain temporary hit points equal to twice the penalty you took, which last until the beginning of your next turn. Can be used in place of Power Attack to qualify for Feats/PrCs/etc
Shards of Granite
Prerequisites: Stone Power feat, BAB +6, any two Stone Dragon maneuvers
Benefit: Grants the use of three tactical maneuvers
Battering Smash: Using Stone Power, take a -5 penalty on your attack with a Stone Dragon preferred weapon. If you hit, you ingore the target's hardness, if any.
Eviscerating Strike: Hit any one creature at least twice in the same round using a Stone Dragon weapon. On your next turn, you ignore any Stone Power penalty when you roll to confirm a critical.
Unstoppable Onslaught: Take a -5 penalty using Stone Power, and attack with a Stone Dragon weapon. If you hit, ALL your attacks on that creature in the next round automatically overcome any DR.
The key thing here is that Unarmed Strike is one of the Stone Dragon discipline's preferred weapons.
So, basically, you charge into combat using Stone Power, and take a swing. If you hit, then next round, you can flurry with your fists, and all your attacks will bypass the DR of that Balor/Golem/Lich/Tarrasque/whatever.
I think the best way to do this is to take a level of any Martial Adept base class (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade) to gain your first batch of maneuvers, sure two of them are Stone Dragon ones. Taking the Adept level at 1st works because then you don't have the Monk multiclassing restrictions. Which class you take is up to you.
Crusader: +1 BAB, good Fort save, d10 HD, 4+INT skills, Delayed Damage Pool, Furious Counterstrike
Warblade: +1 BAB, good Fort save, d12 HD, 4+INT skills, Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude
Swordsage: +0 BAB, good Ref/Will, d8 HD, 6+INT skills, Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus
Crusader fits your Holy Theme best, and the Delayed Damage pool works quite nicely with Stone Power. Warblades have the best Maneuver Recovery Mechanic, and an INT bonus to Reflex saves. Swordsages mesh best with Monk abilities (Discipline Focus: Stone Dragon is worth a free Weapon Focus feat for your Unarmed Strike), have the most maneuvers known, and 6+INT skills is even better when you quadruple them at 1st level.
EDIT: Fixed tags
I'm pretty noobish still (so bear with me
) playing a PHB/DMG/MM only monk starting at level 5. I'll probably be following the example for these books from the first post (except I'll be human), but I'm not sure how I should distribute my ability points.Thanks to a generous system and decent rolling, I have the following: 16, 16, 15, 15, 14, 14. It seems like these stats will be good for monk MADness, but I'm not sure how I should prioritize.
I was thinking STR/Wis for the 16s, DEX/CON for the 15s and CHA/INT for the 14s. How does that sound? If that's good, should I raise DEX or CON at lvl 4? I'm thinking CON, but I thought I'd check here since I had other questions.
I'll also get to choose 1-2 minor magical items. I was thinking Periapt of Wisdom and gloves of dexterity, but I had a few concerns. Should I save my neck for an Amulet of Mighty Fists? Should I forgo stat boosts for now and look at things like Ring of Protection / Bracers of Armor? Am I right to be looking to up my AC or should I concentrate more on strength? I've only played once before, so I wasn't sure what's considered good/normal AC for a lvl 5 monk, but mine seemed a little low.
Thanks in advance all, I'm always amazed at the amount of information you always seem to have readily available and at your willingness to help
16s in DEX and WIS, go for the AC. CHA and STR can take the 14s, with 15s for CON and INT; raise CON at 4th of you want, but it's not necessary.
You have 7 skill points per level; have a discussion with your party Rogue, see what direction he's going, and see if you can't become the party scout, leaving him/her to take more esoteric skills. And tumble. DO NOT FORGET TUMBLE.
Forget the amulet of Mighty Fists, it's overpriced for what it does, and your neck slot will benefit from availability for +WIS Periapts. Bracers of armour are good.
Consider trying to grab yourself a Wounding monk weapon... Let rip with a flurry while holding one (or two, with Two-Weapon Fighting) of those and watch your enemy's CON score drop like a stone.
Any help?
Weapon Finesse at 3rd level is *such* an obvious choice for most monk builds that, although I mentally factored it into the advice, I forgot to write it down.
Weapon Finesse at 3rd level is *such* an obvious choice for most monk builds that, although I mentally factored it into the advice, I forgot to write it down.
I have played quite a few monk builds, and only one of them had Weapon Finesse. It is also very possible, and effective, to make a "bruiser" monk that focuses on damage, grappling, and tripping. Half-orcs are a good race for this kind of monk if you're playing core-only.
Basically, there are many different ways to build a monk, and the various types of monk builds will perform quite different roles. A dextrous "skirmisher" is only one of many.
Make sure to work with your party spellcasters to secure some buffs for yourself. I think monks benefit more from buffs than most other classes. They can easily make a monk go from being mediocre to fantastic. A monk polymorphed into a hag or giant is a LOT scarier than a wizard polymorphed into one.
A monk with moderate to high strength and wisdom has all of these options.
meaningful flurry damage
grapple
trip
stun fist
A monk with low strength and high wisdom has only this option:
stun fist
The flurry damage is what you use when the opponent is resistant or immune to your tactical feats. A monk who can't do decent damage is a walking save/stun effect that needs the rest of the party to do anything useful.
Finesse/low str rogues work because the real damage is in the sneak attack. monks don't have anything like that (their unarm progression somewhat keeps up with weapon damage enhancements, but it does nothing to substitute for not having a strength bonus to damage). Giving up the feat on an already starved character is also not exactly optimal design.
I don't think it is a good design rule to ignore wisdom/stun fist either - the stun fist and related feets add a useful weapon in the arsenal, it helps AC a bit, including flatfooted AC and part of why monks tend to have good saves is they have both the class bonus AND decent wis/dex/con scores.
But you can make a pretty darn good stun fist oriented monk with 14-16 base strength and no need for weapon finesse, just as you can make a pretty good "bruiser" monk with 14-16 wisdom (taking imp grapple as a "Real" feat instead of as a bonus feat).
Dumping either str or wisdom will hurt you. Dex and con are second tier compared to either (and about equally important, although past a certain point where you get "enough" AOO's from combat reflexes, con might matter a touch more)
To me, all monks are skirmishers. But also to me, what skirmisher means is you place your char wherever you want on the battlefield, do something to lock down a vulnerable target (trip, grapple, stun fist) and then you destroy that opponent in the following round with your flurry. It doesn't mean flit around being ineffective except when you stick a stunning fist (and still being incapable of exploiting the momentary weakness of your enemy on your own.)
A low str monk pretty much needs the polymorph buff to function well. This may become less useful in future as the steady nerfs to polymorph make such effects more and more dependent on your base attributes, but right now it still works quite well if the PHB2 rules that say polymorph subschool spells strip you of class abilities are ignored.
Hadouken, Cleric 4/Monk 2/Sacred Fist 3
Books Allowed: Core, Completes other than Scoundrel, PGtF, MoF, and there are various banned things from each book. (Complete list of banned stuff found here)
STR 12
DEX 18 (+2 Gloves of Dex)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 22 (+2 from levels, +4 Periapt of Wisdom)
CHA 8
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Fleet of Foot (PGtF), Combat Casting, Stunning Fist (Bonus Monk), Combat Reflexes (Bonus Monk), Pain Touch, Rapid Stunning
Skills: Balance 9 ranks, Jump 11 ranks, Tumble 11 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks
Items other than listed above: Monk's Belt and Ring of Deflection +1
So from all that information, do you guys have any suggestions?
EDIT: I did mean Sacred Fist. My bad.
Taking some ideas from this thread, I created the following build for a 9th level Cleric/Monk/Enlightened Fist with 32-point build
Hadouken, Cleric 4/Monk 2/Enlightened Fist 3
Do you mean Sacred Fist? I think Enlightened Fist only progresses arcane spellcasting. If not, enlighten me. :P
Also, see above where solbergb talks about why low Str monks are crappy. I actually agree with him, I just didn't come out and say it explicitly in my earlier post. Monks don't really need high Dex. Wisdom does for them most of what Dex does for other people, and you're better off relying on Str for your attack rolls anyway, as it is also added to damage.
STR 12
DEX 18 (+2 Gloves of Dex)
Feats: Weapon Finesse,
starting strength 16 and gaunts of ogre power
dex 14
Feat: improved grapple instead of weapon finesse
Same character, same emphasis on stun fist but with two less AC and reflex save traded for an extra tactical option and significantly more damage in the flurry.
Strength is more important than dex for most monks. When you eventually upgrade to a belt of strength, you can beef up your dex with gloves.
Otherwise I think your build is pretty good. But I really don't think a primary melee character should be running around with 12 strength if he doesn't have sneak attack. (I also feel that way about archers - if you aren't a PHB2 crossbow-sniper getting bonuses from dex to damage, you need strength)
So you've got metric ton of class abilities that make you fight unarmed and naked almost as well as an armed fighter does... Why not be armed? It takes less training, and you fight better. Even you, who has spent years studying this, do more damage and hit more often when you're using a big honkin' greatsword. So what's the point?
Face it: a lifetime of training, and you still get owned by any schmuck with chainmail and an axe
If I wanted to play a damage machine, I'd be a Barbarian, Fighter, or Martial Adept. Maybe a combat Cleric. If I'm playing a monk, I like to go for something different.
Example: Githzerai Monk, Cobra Stance fighting style, in a plane-hopping campaign. He was the party scout (the Dwarven Rogue was more of a combat/tinkerer-type, wearing full plate, with levels in Gatecrasher), set up the flanking maneuvers, tumble around the battlefield like a maniac, and could 'Steal', Final Fantasy style (Spring Attack + Improved Disarm = YOINK!). If we'd ever made it to high enough levels, he would have been stealing the Vorpal Longswords clean out of the the Balor's hands.
He wasn't a damage-dealer; he didn't have to be. The Kensai and the Gatecrasher handled that side of things quite excellently. Instead, he did his own thing, and served the party well.
Example: Githzerai Monk, Cobra Stance fighting style, in a plane-hopping campaign. He was the party scout (the Dwarven Rogue was more of a combat/tinkerer-type, wearing full plate, with levels in Gatecrasher), set up the flanking maneuvers, tumble around the battlefield like a maniac, and could 'Steal', Final Fantasy style (Spring Attack + Improved Disarm = YOINK!). If we'd ever made it to high enough levels, he would have been stealing the Vorpal Longswords clean out of the the Balor's hands.
It's possible to do that with any class setup. Certain classes are better at certain things, but that doesn't mean that you can't do something sub-optimal for your class.
I could play a druid that didn't cast spells, at all, and still be playing an effective character. It's still a waste.
Monks are bad at disarming.
Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll.
If you're trying to disarm a Balor you have to beat an opposed attack roll. The Balor gets +33 (it's attack bonus), plus 4 (because he's large sized).
As a 20th level human monk ('cause I have no idea what your Gith looked like), you have a BAB of 15. Let's be very generous and say that you're using Greater Magic Fang (+5), and have Weapon Finesse and a dexterity of 18 +4 (levels) +6 (enhancement), for a bonus of 29 Subtract 4 'cause you're using a light weapon, and you're at +25.
At this point, trying to disarm a Balor is a really bad idea.
But say you do disarm him. Twice, because he has a whip too. Now what? He still can use Blasphemy at will. He still has Power Word Stun. He can ready an action to grapple you when you spring attack by. Thanks to your low strength, he will win. I hope you maxed Escape Artist.
Githzerai get +6 racial dex, so a base score of 22 is easy, even in point-buy. Stats plus enhancements gives 32, for a +11. Monk 19 (XP total for 20th, reduced by the LA buyoff) = +14 BAB. GMF for +5, -4 for a light weapon, +4 for Improved Disarm. If there's pre-buffs on the go, getting Enlarged is easy enough.
Items-wise, Pale Green Ioun Stone is good. Custom items could be considered cheating here, so I've not factored them in, but I don't think a "+5 to Disarm checks" item is unreasonable. Money no object, I'd favour a ring of 3/day True Strike which activates when I make a disarm attempt (I've seen them. Expensive, but worth it).
That's my +31 against his +33, then I spring back out of the way, taunting him by waving his sword in his face.
He wants to grapple? He can go ahead. If he's got hold of me, he can't do anything else. The readied action it took to do so means everyone else get free hits. Fire resistance will absorb the worst of the damage (because nobody's stupid enough to visit the Nine Hells without protection). And he's quite welcome to try and SLA me... As a monk, I have the best chance of making my saves. The party's better off if *I'm* the one making the Fort Save vs Nasty Death than if the Wizard's doing it.
Which is another thing I like doing with Monks - Aggro Magnet. A sky-high AC, excellent saves, and decent HP means you can draw fire from the enemies, at which point the rest of the party hit hard and fast. As a sorcerer I once knew used to say "Just drop the fireball on the monk. He's got Evasion, he can handle it"
When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x 1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands.
Would this mean that a Monk two-weapon fighting gets his full Strength bonus to damage with the off hand weapon, too? I know it doesn't say anything about wielding two weapons, but that is the only instance I can think of when he would gain only 1/2 Str to damage with an unarmed strike/Monk weapon.
I have no idea why a monk that specialized in Disarming wouldn't carry a quarterstaff. You make your unarmed attacks with your elbows and feet and head; the only reason you carry the quarterstaff is because its a two-handed weapon and gives +4 to disarm attempts since its otherwise generally useless. There's no real drawback in carrying one and they're cheap. Keep 10 of them in an Efficient Quiver if they keep getting sundered.
Re: off-hand attacks
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv12202006a.zip
FAQ, p12 answers this. 1/2 STR for off-hand attacks, even for Monks making off-hand unarmed attacks.
Three attacks, one normally, one from Flurry of blows and one from two-weapon fighting. That -4 penalty from both TWF and Flurry will hurt, though, so hitting with any of them might not be that easy.
Thanks
I figure I can "test the water" before going all out... swing once... if it's got a low AC, try twice next round... then maybe 3 times the following round to put icing on the cake.
They are not the best damage dealers, but they're at least as good as a sword+board melee and they're within 20% of so of the 2h fighters at everything but single hit damage. They're better in a full attack if they get buffs, because buffs apply to more attacks. The one place they have trouble is vs very high AC opponents or DR that they can't penetrate for some reason. A monk will also outdamage any cleric attempting the divine power thing that hasn't been built to be a primary melee. If it's ok for a generalist cleric to sometimes wade into melee, it's foolish to not assume a monk, who has less tactical options than a cleric, shouldn't make an effort to do meaningful damage as part of his build.
Nothing in that above paragraph is true if you dump strength though. Do that, and your monk is nothing but a save/stun machine vs one opponent a round. If I wanted to be a cheerleader for other party members, I'd play a bard and do a whole lot more for the party than attempting (and often failing) to stun one enemy a round.
The reasons to play a monk instead of some other primary melee character is to play a melee that isn't afraid of spellcasters or other skirmishers. You've got the mobility to get out of and around battlefield control, you've got the saves to shake off spells, the touch AC to avoid some ray/touch spells, the improved evasion to dodge the area stuff and the SR eventually to handle stuff that all of the above didn't cover. Once you get to the enemy, you can lock them in place with whatever tactical feat is most likely to work, shake off the counterattack (if they're capable of one, with grapple and stun fist they might not be) and destroy them with the flurry.
Unless your flury does the damage of an anemic chipmunk. Most monks don't actually have that problem. Only the monks who worried overmuch about defense and didn't spend feat/equipment on offense.
I thought it was like improved natural attack but a different feat which definately aplied to monks?
Re: Disarming
I have no idea why a monk that specialized in Disarming wouldn't carry a quarterstaff. You make your unarmed attacks with your elbows and feet and head; the only reason you carry the quarterstaff is because its a two-handed weapon and gives +4 to disarm attempts since its otherwise generally useless. There's no real drawback in carrying one and they're cheap. Keep 10 of them in an Efficient Quiver if they keep getting sundered.
He wanted to sping attack grab the weapon. He cant do that if he disarmed with a quarterstaff.
I posted this in it's own thread, but didn't get much of a response.
The Dragon Desendant is a new monk PrC from Dragon Magic.
It's easy to qualify for: Conc. 8 ranks, still mind class feature, unarmed strike, combat reflexes, dragontouched feat [any chromatic dragon] (CHA 11, basically draconic heritage for non-sorcerers).
HD, BAB, and saving throws (except reflex) are the same as the monk and it advances monk unarmed damage, AC, and speed.
It gains 5 swappable features (initally a standard action to swap, then a swift action action at level 6, can use two features simultaneously at level 10).
Utimately (at level 10):
1) + 3 insight bonus to attack and damge, fists overcome magic and chaotic DR, immunity to fear
2) +10 insight bonus to hide and move silently, 5d6 sneak attack
3) a 5d6 60 ft. ray attack (spell-like)
4) +5 insight bonus to saving throws, DR 10/Chaotic
5) +5 insight bonus to AC, a better version of karmic strike
remember: only 1 feature at a time (2 at level 10)
The nice sneak attack works great with stunning fist and a flurry.
The ray gives the monk a viable ranged attack.
The respectable DR increases the monks ability to exchange blows round for round and the better karmic strike (no AC penalties) is wonderful.
It's probably the first 10 level monk PrC worth taking.
It simply kicks ass. I think its way better than the normal monk progression. The damage reduction is 10/cold iron I think though.
You didn't mention the bardic knowleghe ability based on concentration and the slippery mind(as rogue) it gives you. Plus maybe sneak attack is 7d6?
Anyway at level 10 you go in combat with +5 insight AC, +5 saves, karmic strike that doesn't require them to hit you and gives no AC penalty and 10/cold iron DR.
A sample build:
1st Ability focus(Stun), Dragon touched,
2nd Combat reflexes
3rd Draconic aura (senses)
6th Improved trip, Improved Natural attack
9th TWF
12th Deft oppurtunist
15th ITWF
18th Double strike
Stats: Str, Dex(17 minimum), Wis/Con, Charisma11
Sorry if this was asked before.
Does all of this stack?
Thanks
So, I'd say it depends on the exact wording of the corresponding abilities. If it says "you get a bonus to damage equal to your wisdom bonus", then it's technically an untyped bonus, and would thus stack with anything. If it says, "you add your wisdom bonus to damage", it could be argued as a typed bonus (wisdom), and would thusly not stack -- although "wisdom" isn't one of the official bonuses, I think it would fall under the category of "ability bonus".
In any case, adding the same bonus from the same source (wisdom) multiple times is pretty ludicrous. But then again, this is the min/max board. ;)
I have a bit of a tied assignment if anyone wants to help me
My char is a level 2 Wood Elf with the following stats (rolled and couldn't be moved around):
Str 19, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 11
He currently has IUS, TWF, Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes. TWF being his level 1 feat and the rest from being Monk of course.
I'm not looking to make a char with 24d20 damage here (besides the DM wouldn't allow it), but I'd love to hear some suggestions on which directions I could take to optimize him within reason. It's more fun to play a game when you're useful to the group. Also I'm looking to make a beat-em-down monk - not a tactician, although the karmic strike chain seems very nice and useful even so?
I've also considered a few fighter levels (4 to be exact) for the bonus feats, and because I figure 16Mnk gives me the important monk skills. My only regrets would be loosing some SR and SF DC. How bad would this be compared to +3 feats, and would Weapon Specialization be worth it then? It would also increase my BAB to give one extra attack at level 20 - not insignificant I think?
Perhaps there is a PrC with full BAB progression that could be substituted - any suggestions?
I've considered going for the complete TWF chain - mostly because once (if) I hit epic levels I can take Perfect TWF and get ridiculous amounts of attacks with flurry. This was actually behind my choice of Wood Elf for the dex bonus despite the con penalty. That and there is a distinct lack of non-cheesy large races with monk potential. Sure Half-Ogre and Goliath are amazing, but it stretches the imagination to think one of them would be a monk of all classes ;)
So anyone got any ideas?
All WotC sources are open - pending approval from the DM. Although I'd really prefer to stick with 3.5 material. It's a mess to mix 3.0 and 3.5 in my experience...Edit: Oh no VoP or other stuff form Exalted. I don't like it, my DM don't like it, and it won't fly ;)
power attack
improved natural attack (monster manual, see also FAQ explicitly allowing)
possibly ability focus (stunning fist) (monster manual) and improved grapple
Lets see. Statbumps to strength
1. TWF, stun fist
3. power attack
6. improved nat attack, improved trip
9. improved TWF
12. ability focus stun fist or superior unarmed strike (I forget what book this is in) or maybe weapon proficiency in some kind of 2h reach weapon or possibly Sun School Martial Arts (Complete Warrior) or combat acrobat (PHBII) so you can trip people with your zillions of attacks without worrying about being countertripped on failure.
15. greater twf
18. whatever you like. Maybe brutal throw, as your dex and str will likely have diverged quite a bit by now.
This is your basic TWF monk build. Power attack is for when you can't full attack or for when for some reason you are hitting DR that your fists or monk weapons can't penetrate. Consider carrying a quarterstaff for those kinds of hits, it is your only 2-handed monk weapon. Or carry a spiked chain and trip to make up for your lack of proficiency. Power attack will sometimes be useful on very low AC targets with your massive TWF/flurry too - unlike most off-hand attacks your unarmed strike and power attack are compatable.
This build gives gives you a lot of hits, with fairly high base damage per hit. It uses your strength but many of your damage increases aren't strength dependent so the off-hand attacks are still pretty good. You rolled fantastic stats so your stunning fist will also work ok and you'll have half-decent armor class without going crazy to invest in it. With this guy, I'd go with a con amulet rather than a wisdom one.
My DM is allowing just about anything from official material. So VoP is fine. Exhalted is fine. I'd consider Vow of Peace, but I probably won't since I don't know the others very well and don't want him to cause too many problems in the group.
Lord Arkhaven's post really made me decide that I wanted to go Aasimar instead of human so I can fly around on my wings
Something like this:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2947133&postcount=9
I'd like to come up with a build that is more wis/cha based with con/str close behind. My primary focus is going to be a healer, but I would like to be able to smack the crap out of things. :D I'm thinking -in no particular order- power attack, Divine Might/Shield, Intuitive Attack, Nimbus of Light/Holy Radiance, Sanctify/Holy Ki Strike, Nymph's Kiss (maybe), Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Fist of the Heavens, and Gift of Grace (if I take 2 paladin levels).
I figure my undead turning will be junk anyways, might as well get something useful for it. If I take paladin levels as well, I could net a nice bonus to saves, even for my whole group!
What would be a good order to take all of this stuff in? Are there any specific domains/deities I should follow? Is there any setup of feats that would function far better for a flyby punch to the face of doom?
Tome of Battle offers what I would call a "crap ton" of good options for either straight monks or monks who choose to go
-Snap Kick: an extra attack (usable on a Flurry, Standard Action or Full Attack), at -2 for all attacks.
-Superior Unarmed Strike: A separate Unarmed Strike progression that maxes at 2d6. Meant for non-monks, it works like a Monk's Belt on true Monks. SUS + INA gives you 3d6 base damage at level 20.
-Shadow Blade: A character in a Shadow stance may use their Dex to damage using any Shadow-affiliated weapon, including unarmed strike. How can you qualify for this?
A Monk with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade is now totally freed from Str, and gets +2d6 Sneak Attack damage to boot.
-1-2 levels of Swordsage, taken at levels 7-8.
-Martial Study (Shadow), Martial Stance (Shadow), Shadow Blade.
I like the first option, as you can also get Weapon Focus (Unarmed) and your Wis to AC in Light Armor.
Here's a full-on TOB build that takes advantage of those three feats and TOB maneuvers to out-monk a monk. It has Evasion, Mettle, excellent protection against spells and effects, a vareity of attack modes, and I've gotten around 1000 Avg. damage using Bracers of Striking, Raging Mongoose, Pouncing Charge and the Flying Kick feat.
Warblade 12/Swordsage 2/Pious Templar 1/Monk 2/Swash 1/Fighter 2
Reqs: Str 13, Dex 16, Wis as high as possible.
1 Monk (IUS) (Def. Arrows) (True Believer)
2 M (Combat Ref)
3 Swash (Wpn. Finesse) (Imp. Init)
4 Fighter (SUS)
5 Swordsage (Wpn. Focus)
6 Warblade (INA)
7 PT
8 Sword
9 F (Snap Kick) (Shadow Blade)
10-20 War (12 Stone Power) (15 ) (18 ) (War 13 Shards of Granite) (War 17 Unnerving Calm)
Maneuvers/Stances:
Sword: 7/2
Diamond Moment of Perfect Mind Counter 1
Diamond Action Before Thought Counter 2
Set Mighty Throw Strike 1
Set Devestating Throw Strike 3
Shadow Maneuver 1 TBD
Tiger Wolf Fang Strike 1
Tiger Sudden Leap Boost 1
Shadow Assassin’s Stance Stance 3
Tiger Blood in the Water Stance 1
War: 9/3
Diamond Insightful Strike 3/Greater Insightful Strike 6
Diamond Ruby Nightmare Blade Strike 4/Diamond Nightmare Blade Strike 8
Iron Wall of Blades Counter 2
Iron Iron Heart Surge Untyped 3
Iron Iron Heart Endurance Boost 6
Iron Adamantine Hurricane Strike 8
Stone Mountain Hammer Strike 2 (switch out later)
Tiger Dancing Mongoose Boost 5
Tiger Pouncing Charge Strike 5
Tiger Raging Mongoose Boost 8
Diamond Pearl of Black Doubt Stance 3
Stone Strength of Stone Stance 8
Stone Stance TBD
With that in mind and the very relevant fact that the character is a were-bear (+14 or something like that to Strength in "were" form...)
I was just thinking about maximizing damage, great cleave, combat reflexes....
I was thinking about Zhou Disciple but i don't know if the master would allow it (it's not in Forgotten)...
Oh yes, it's a level 18... (-3 for adjusment level)
Thanks in advance !
You'll end up with a super-high attack bonus, and only sacrifice a point or two of damage because you won't focus on STR.
By boosting Wisdom, you increase Attack, Will, AC, and Stun DC. You'll sacrifice Damage slightly by not focusing on STR, and your reflex save slightly by not focusing on DEX, but you'll be hitting more often and getting hit less.
Is there a feat somewhere that lets you use your Wisdom modifier for Reflex saves?
My own experience is monks need all of grapple, trip and stun fist to really have a good shot at keeping an enemy where you want it for the follow-up flurry (you pick the option most likely to work, eg, you trip the cleric-with-freedom-of-movement, you stun the wizard-with-dim-door, you grapple the rogue-with-elusive-target for your BDF's full attack, etc).
It is better than weapon finesse though, as cranking wisdom does a better job of cranking AC and helps indirectly with offense (stun fist) than cranking dex does. Likely the reason you don't see it more in the stun fist builds is that BOED isn't commonly used, and those who do use it tend to get stuck on vow of poverty and don't look at much else in there.
1. Don't, except maybe as Monk1/Druid19
2. If you ignore No. 1, then use the Druid Shapeshift variant from PHBII and do something like Monk2/Druid8/SacredFist10.
Eww, small level dips like that are ugly. Is there any way to play a non-lawful monk?
Once you've decided to stop leveling in Monk, you can change your alignment. Changing your alignment prevents you from taking any more levels in Monk, as does leveling in any other class. You don't lose any Monk skills, you just can't level anymore.
So if you're doing a short campaign, and you intend to level in Tattooed Monk or Drunken Master or something, you can be Neutral or Chaotic.
Eww, small level dips like that are ugly. Is there any way to play a non-lawful monk?
Sure...once you're ready to exit the class.
The ex-monk/barbarian grappler is almost a cliche.
Is there any way to play a non-lawful monk?
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Yes, play a monk and then stop being lawful.
There are a couple Monkish PrCs that don't require lawful alignment (Monk of the Long Death, Shou Disciple, etc.) and then some Dragon variants. But you don't give any of your books allowed or any other information, so it's hard to give you better data.
Working with Core, CW, BoED, XPH, FRCS, UA
I have been toying with this build as of late...
(RacconDog)Hengeyokri Monk6/Warshaper4/Shou5/Occult Slayer5
The feat progression would be,
1 Stunning Fist(Monk)
1 Kungfu Genius
2 Combat Reflexes(monk)
3 Expert Tactician
6 Improved Trip(monk)
6 WF(unarmed)
9 Dodge
12 Power Attack(Shou)
12 Knockdown
14 Improved Initive(Shou)
15 Defensive Throw
18 Improved Natural Attack
You end up with BAB +17, very nice saves, all the Warshaper and Occult Slayer nastiness AND greater flurry. Also with a fanged ring, monk's tattoos, and a monk's belt your unarmed damage will be 8d8 (avg 36 dmg) and 12d8 if you get enlarged(thank you mean_liar on the clairifications).
I've seen a lot of multi-class builds on here claiming they get greater flurry, but without the requisite 11 levels in monk. How do you manage that? The only prestige class I've seen so far with a flurry progression is the Initiate of Pistis Sophia. I'd love to be able to do a monk/shoud disciple/shen build... but don't want to pass up greater flurry. Is there an official source or explanation of what stacks for purposes of flurry?
Shou Disciple is in the Unapproachable East book, a FR supplement. I'll check Dragon 318 when I get home if I remember it.
Was Shou Disciple also updated in 318 or other source?
Trip is good, but is just one more option. The focus is the enormous number of attacks provided by Shou Disciple (Unaproachable East) martial flurry combined with 14 monk levels (Shintao Monk [Oriental Adventures] and Shou Disciple both add levels to monk's flurry of blows attack).
Has it really been confirmed that Shou Dsiciple, let alone Shintao Monk stack with Monk for flurry effect... lesser penalties and greater flurry included? I hate to post yet another message about it, but my DM won't let me get away with it without some kind of proof or reasonable argument.
Shou Disciple explicitly stacks for monk's unarmed BAB — which was how 3.0 handled the flurry issue. Most people have reasoned that this feature would carry over into the 3.5 flurry rules, though WotC hasn't said anything. Note that Unapproachable East is, according to the tiny text at the front of the book, compatible with the 3.5 rules. So go figure.
I was really amused by what the Initiate of Draconic Mysteries can do to your damage btw. Based off a TWF monk 6/Shou Disciple 5 (greater flurry), iirc you have no problem doing 8d8 damage per hit at lvl 20 (SUS, Monk Belt, Imp. Natural attack), with a triple damage on a critical. Even without strength bonus, that is an average of 36 damage per hit, raw. Get enlarge (easy enough) and enjoy attacks of iirc 12d8, average of 54. I'd say that can be pretty nice, especially in a grapple. Sure, the IDM capstone ability is quite cute, but you can wait a bit and get it at lvl 21.
BTW, does anyone know the caster level for the IDM capstone ability? I presumed that it is either equal to your character level or the maximum of the spell (which means a HD 25 dragon). Being limited only by the maximum size of the dragon would be pretty... wicked :D
In the OA update in Dragon 318, OA author James Wyatt said that Shintao Monk and other monk prcs stack for flurry. (Also note that they nerfed Shintao Monk to have fewer feats, so make sure if you want to open this up as a source).
Shou Disciple explicitly stacks for monk's unarmed BAB — which was how 3.0 handled the flurry issue. Most people have reasoned that this feature would carry over into the 3.5 flurry rules, though WotC hasn't said anything. Note that Unapproachable East is, according to the tiny text at the front of the book, compatible with the 3.5 rules. So go figure.
Excellent! Thanks for the info, rilem. This helps me immensely... went over to my buddy's place last night and borrowed 318 from him so my DM can have a look. I agree on Shou Disciple... as written it isn't clear, but based on how it was handled in 3.0, it should stack. Ahhh... now I can proceed with my monk progression. Thanks again!
Have you wondered why on Earth the Black Flame Zealot from CDivine requires EWP kukri? Well, that's where it comes from.
Especially considering that the UE Black Flame Zealot is a devout worshipper of Kossuth, and Kossuth's favored weapon is Spiked Chain. First thing that came to mind when I read the PRC was "Kukri? Ummm... okay, sure."
Especially considering that the UE Black Flame Zealot is a devout worshipper of Kossuth, and Kossuth's favored weapon is Spiked Chain. First thing that came to mind when I read the PRC was "Kukri? Ummm... okay, sure."
I suppose lugging a spiked chain around might be a little... less than inobtrusive? :P
I suppose lugging a spiked chain around might be a little... less than inobtrusive? :P
There is that to consider... kinda hard to hide a spiked chain in the waistband of your monk's outfit.
A Monk11/Ranger9 (allowing greater flurry) could be useful if your DM's particularly stingy with allowing prestige classes in the game.
As for "monk-like", that's pretty vague. What do you want to be able to do?
Are there any official ways to have a chaotic monk or monk-like class?
DR335 has the Chaos Monk. You have to be CG, CN, or CE, you trade flurry of blows for "flailing strike," you trade purity of body for "erratic advance," and a whole host of other abilities focusing on freedom, independence, and unpredictability.
I think you can get both full Flurry and high-level Decisive Strike capability. I was just looking at RotD Disciple of the Eye. You get flurry from the PrC. Here's the wording:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Your disciple of the eye levels stack with your monk levels (if any) for the purpose of determining the attack bonuses you use when making a flurry of blows.
So, you have Decisive Strike from your Monk levels, but your Monk level stacks w/ Disciple of the Eye for determining Flurry, thus it would be something like 15th level Monk for Decisive Strike, and 20th level Monk for Flurry.
Any reason why this wouldn't work?
it got really old.
this is a really old guide and we need an update
it got really old.
meh, monks are boring. i dont see an update coming.
meh, monks are boring. i dont see an update coming.
someone has to make a new one. There are tons of material available to monks with all these sourcebooks.
someone has to make a new one. There are tons of material available to monks with all these sourcebooks.
I couldn't agree more.
A question, due to my curiosity. I see some builds that use Improved Natural Attack. What if the DM specifically forbids monks selecting said feat?
The entirety of Greyhawk campaign setting bursts into flames leaving no man alive and everything is utterly destroyed. Tell him that and he should allow it.
No really, your damage output gets smaller. What did you expect?
RACES
I'd say being Large for +1 ECL is your first priority ... Goliaths and (Krynnish) Minotaurs make up my favorites, but HalfGiants are servicable.
Okay, I haven't read the whole thread, so this might have already been mentioned... Half Giants (from Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Goliaths (Races of Stone) are not large and don't have 10' reach. The only function as large races when it comes to wielding larger weapons and for favorable size bonuses to grapple and trip attacks, and such like that.
The way your original post was worded, it sounded like you were stating that these races were such. Again, I don't know if this is an err that was pointed out later or if I just misunderstood the wording of the post.
:P
to save this resource:D
The amulet of Mighty Fists is expensive because it applies to all the monk's natural weapons, which is at least 5 to 9 weapons. (Fist, elbow, knees, feet, head but) depending on how you want to count them. Spells like magic fang, or greater magic fang, only effects one of those weapons. Ie you cast it on a dragon and you choose which, it's bite, one claw, or a wing or it's tail or crush, will be effected, or greater magic fang can give the, all a +1 (or one of them up to +5) whereas the amulet effects all his attacks.
with that functionality the expense is justified, as the amulet can also be used on summoned animals, animal companions of the druid, the druid themselves, and of course monsters the party encounters.
The Necklace of Natural Weapons looks good, but note it's cost is based on it only effecting one natural attack (ie a dragon with htis could have it effect it's bite, but not the claws, wing or tail sweep) while flurry of blows doesn't state what exact body parts are used to attack, (especially since a monk can use it while armed with weapons) i think a DM should reasonably require a monk to pay for it to effect at least two to 4 different natural attacks.
Savage species is a 3.0 and not a 3.5 book, so the DM should be weary, especially as unloke creatures with multiple natural attacks, the monk's unarmed attacks aren't clearly defined, as far as cost is comcerned I would recomend that the dm makes the monk pay for at least 2 natural weapons, myself i would say that they should pay for each attack made with flurry of blows up to a maximum of 4 (basically 1 enhancement for each limb), while this is expensive, it affords far more versatility then amulet of Mighty Fists, as othe enhancement types can be used ( ie flaming, bane etc) and different effects, such as one attack flaming, the second frost, third shock etc, so as to be better prepared for resistances then others. Also it can excede the +5 limit of Mighty Fists.
Such a cost is easily justified because Savage Species is 3.0 and thus not actually applicable in 3.5 rules and because the Necklace of Natural Weapons requires you to choose the natural attack, whereas the monk's unarmed attacks aren't defined by body parts.