Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frerezar Dec 29, 2008 15:44:22	Ok i mentioned this somewhere before but now i am giving it's own topic. I made this little built last week but i am having a lot of trouble figuring out what to do with it after lvl6. It seems like this combination can{t be made strong. So take it as a challenge. this is what I have so far Strongheart halfling (flaw murky eyed) rogue (mimic )sacred sttrike / Imp Iniciative / yondalla's sense rogue monk stunning fist / ascetic rogue monk (invisible fist) weapon finesse (as for the halflign variant) rogue (mimic2/day) rogue craven I plan on taking snap kick at some point to get an extra sneak attack as i charge at the beggining of combat (good init). beyond that I am kind of stuck. I want something that gives me good BAB and sneak attack. Then add some more lvl's of rogue to amp my monk unarmed damage via ascetyc rogue. A couple questions, is it possible to use two weapon fighting on top of the base flurry of blows? what would be the best way to get into unseen seer if i chose too? I appreciate your attention and hope for answers PS book of nine swords isn't allowed, exepto for feats that have nothing to do with maneuvers.
#2 DeAnno Dec 29, 2008 15:53:57	One thing an up close an personal Rogue really needs is Pounce, to always get his Full Attack in. The easiest way to get that is Barb 1 Lion totem (Complete Champion). The issue, obviously, is chaotic alignment. There are two solutions: 1)Start as Chaotic, then become Lawful and keep Pounce (you lose Rage, big whoop) 2)Play the Chaotic Monk variant. It's in Dragon Magazine 335, but you can also find it at Crystal Keep. They actually get more attacks (on average) in a flurry, so are superiod in this sort of build. It IS possible to stack TWF and Flurry, though your TWFed attacks do half strength damage due to being forced into off handedness. The penalties also stack for a total of -4, making it sometimes unwise to do both, especially at later levels. As for BaB and issues hitting, that's tough. You could go Assassin or gish and get Wraithstrike somehow, but that wouldn't stack with monk. The better route may be Precise Strike (Dragon Magazine 310), which allows you to exchange dice of SA for to hit.
#3 ninjarabbit Dec 29, 2008 18:20:25	3 levels of swashbuckler wouldn't be a bad idea You'd get free weapon finesse, unarmed strikes work with insightful strike, you'd get some much needed BAB and hps and the daring outlaw and superior unarmed strike feats make up for loss of sneak attack and unarmed strike damage.
#4 frerezar Dec 30, 2008 8:49:00	I forgot to mention the DM doesn's allow any dragon or dungeon (my bad). and I did consider swashbuckler. But I get weapon finesse from monk 2 anyway (yay for halfling variants) wich I am taking one way or another (to get invisible fist). Sadly enought I rolled my stats yesterday and my INT ended up being 11 (i put a 17 in dex and a 14 in wis, wich were my highest rolls). So getting INT to different things wouln't work. Ok now i have different questions, is there a way for me to take a one lvl dip into cleric then go into unseen seer? (is ther a way to mak my divine spells be considered arcane, at lest two, to qualify for it, divine magician maybe) That wuld allow me to abuse travel devotion (semi pounce) and eventually get awesome cleric buffs.
#5 ikildkenny Dec 30, 2008 11:12:42	As for your last question: afaik there is no option of counting divine spells as arcane - the southern magician feat lets you do it the other way round, but that doesnt help you ... for your build: Im clearly missing carmedine monk in this build: you could completely dump WIS, as you need a higher int anyways for your Skills ... and knowledge devotion (as a "i have a lot of skillpoints" char) is imho also a solid choice - maybe something like this: Rouge 1 Rouge 2 Monk 1 (Carmedine Monk) Monk 2 Cloistered Cleric 1 (Knowledge devotion, Travel devotion, Time Domain) Swashbuckler 1 to 3 Rouge the Rest Feats of interest and not mentioned yet: Ascetig Rouge, Daring Outlaw You would only have to exchange WIS with INT (11 wis is enough to cast you few chleric spells - and you mostly work with int and dex)
#6 frerezar Dec 30, 2008 11:41:24	That solves my problem completly. Now i have toconvince the DM to alter mi character's first lvl and stat placement before the next session. This is the built i like now. Rogue (mimic) Inp Iniciative / Craven / Carmendine Monk Monk Stunning fist Rogue Ascetic Rogue Monk (invisible fist) weapon finesse Wizard (focused specialist, abrupt jaunt) Unseen seer Practiced Spellcaster Unseen seer Unseen seer Unseen seer Knowledge Devotion Unseen seer Unseen seer Unseen seer Arcane disciple (war) Arcane trickster Arcane trickster Arcane trickster * Arcane trickster Arcane trickster Arcane trickster * Arcane trickster Arcane trickster
#7 NiteCyper Dec 30, 2008 22:53:35	What's a Rogue (Mimic)? What's an Invisible Fist? I mean, where are you getting the initial spell-casting from? That is my main source of confusion. Touch of Golden Ice.
#8 frerezar Dec 31, 2008 8:59:38	The initial spellcasting is from the one level of wizard (really easy to miss among all the other stuff), wich also gives me the abrupt jaunt. 'mimic' and 'invisible fist' are alternate class features from Exemplar's of Evil. Mimic replaces trapfinding from rogue and allows me to use disguise self as a spell like ability once per day. Invisible fist replaces the monk's evasion (wich i get from rogue anyway) and allows me to become invisible (NOT as the spell) every 3 rounds as an inmediate action. So at the end of the build I'd get lvl 8 spells, one dice of sneak attack less than a pure rogue. And if needed in combat full BAB (yay divine power). On top of a nice array of roguish tricks like inisiblity, disuise self, and minor teleport. I remember reading about touch of golden ice once, i'll check it out thanks (btw I was also thinking split ray for scorching ray and sneak attack, 4 sneak attacks in a trn sounds cool) If there is something preventing me fom usin scorhcing ray and sneak attack that way please let me know
#9 NiteCyper Dec 31, 2008 10:18:08	Ah, I see. I am simply not used to seeing a build going for spell-casting but taking non-spell-casting classes for the first 6 levels. I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels... V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.
#10 frerezar Dec 31, 2008 10:45:00	LOL Thing is. This guy was supposed to be a party's combat rogue. However some dude playing a fighter decided to take a lvl in rogue at second lvl and plans on going for invisible blade. So I found myself not knowing what to do with the 4 levels I had already planned. Since for a combat rogue, invisible blade was way more optimyzed than anythign I could do with my little invisible fist trick. So i figured Id take it in a different direction. The roll of a main arcane acster is already filled as well so the lost of spell levels won't be detrimental to the group. So i plan on remaining a skillfull rogue with a fair amount of spellcasting for support. And in the long run I'll be better in evey possible aspect than the other rogue (*******)
#11 NiteCyper Dec 31, 2008 11:05:59	That dude playing a fighter is not very smart. It's highly recommended that one takes the Rogue level at 1st for the large skill pool to start. Also, Invisible Blade has badly thought-out prerequisites. It's hard to believe that you'd find someone else in your group taking some PrC, that isn't all that broken, usurps your character's abilities nearly completely... except if the boards gave you some bad recommendations in the first place. Were you planning on relying on 'your little invisible fist' (reminds me of Heavy from TF2) trick for sneak-attack damage the whole time? Don't get shoved into a role you don't want to play. Nobody should have to say, 'Oh, we have no Cleric and because I'm the last to roll my character... you know what that means. *sob*'. For another thing, there's a Player's Guide to Healing so that no one should have to be a party healer. Stick with what character you would have wanted to play and play it to your best ability. It seems to me, the sort of character you want is a good close-quarters combatant. I'd recommend Daring Outlaw or Swift Ambusher as well as Factotum/Swashbuckler/Chameleon if you still want to be gishy. If you feel Daring Outlaw/Swift Ambusher is too simple for you, just say so and we'll make some more recommendations since it seems you don't know what you want to play anymore.
#12 frerezar Jan 02, 2009 8:42:22	i am really gratefull for the imput. And I guess the built is less optimized that most things around for that kind of character (I've seen daring outlaw builds around here that would destroy this guy). However even if the invisible blade is a sub optyal PrC. It is as far as i know a pretty fast way to get a lot of sneak attack damage. Wich was what i wanted to do for this character flavorwise (wich i know is a bit unimportant in this boards), exploit sneak attack as much as I could. So either we get two similarly focused characters (precision warrior) in the group (wich will lead to trouble, as i know that guy to be quite conflictive). Or I do a bit of a change on the flavor of the character and still overpower said guy. besides i kind of like what this built turned out to be (flavorwise), and will probably take leadership and make a darign outlaw (just for spite). At any rate, I apologyze if at any point I sounded unthankfull for the sound advice, it wasn{t my intention. But now I'd like to know what feats I should take to complete this little thing.
#13 unundindur Jan 02, 2009 8:52:18	Take away ascetic rogue, you have too few rogue levels for it to pay of. Have you considdered playing a swordsage with the uanarmed variant (if GM allows, he should!)? That way you get what you want almost stright from the can, and you will be doing your job decently to boot. If you trapfinding, you can always multiclass a level with something to get that too (rogue if level 1, ranger if not [Dungeonscape to get ranger+trapfinding]). As for sneak attack, "assassin's stance" helps out and grants +2d6.
#14 NiteCyper Jan 02, 2009 11:04:44	If you trapfinding, you can always multiclass a level with something to get that too (rogue if level 1, ranger if not [Dungeonscape to get ranger+trapfinding]). Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment [Kobold Domain]). One feat nets you trap-finding. If you want to be stealthy while spell-casting, check out the 'Invisible Spell' and 'Deceptive Spell' feats. Loss of casting-class levels makes me sad.