Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jagi_03 Jan 21, 2009 19:33:52	With the spate of monk/psion/gestalt advice threads springing up I feel it's quite an opportune time to ask some advice for character I'm in the process of creating. The basics are as follows: 6th level Gestalt 42 point buy Human (Arkaiun, Shaaryan, Halruaan, Durpari, Chondathan) I was thinking of the following: Monk 2/Ardent4 // Unarmed Swordsage 6 Stats: Str:12 Dex:16 Con:16 Int:10 Wis:18 Cha:8 Feats: FR Regional - Blooded Human - Adaptive Style Level 1 - ? Monk 1 - Stunning Fist Monk 2 - Monastic Training (Ardent) Level 3 - Tashalatora Level 6 - Shadow Blade Basically I'm trying to make an unarmed psi-gish who will be able to keep pace in a gestalt party. Suggestions as to my class progression, feats, psionic mantles, stances/maneuvers and equipment would be most appreciated.
#2 carnivore Jan 21, 2009 19:48:43	you also might list what books are allowed .... since Psionic abilities will eventually surpass martial abilities... keep a Primary Manifester on one side of the Gestalt usually it is best to put a Full BAB class on the other side, or some combination another question.... do you plan on wearing Armor or not? :D
#3 emansdrawkcab Jan 21, 2009 19:56:32	What he means is, you're better off doing something like Monk 2/Psion 18// Warblade 20.
#4 carnivore Jan 21, 2009 20:06:16	What he means is, you're better off doing something like Monk 2/Psion 18// Warblade 20. +1 it really depends on what attributes he wants to focus on: Int + Dex or Wis + Dex :D
#5 jenos Jan 21, 2009 20:07:14	Do you have access to Kung-Fu genius, or another method to get Int to AC? Warblade 1/Psion 1 Monk 1/Psion 2 Monk 2/Psion 3 Warblade +17/Psion +17. Lots of int synergy if you can get monk to function off of int. Obviously you can throw in prestige classes and what not in there, but thats the basics.
#6 carnivore Jan 21, 2009 20:11:22	Carmondine Monk from Champions of Valor is far better than Kung Fu Genius... and it is official WoTC as opposed to Dragon Magazine, .... but it does the same thing and more... here are some useful feats for Psionic/Monkish characters: Feats of Note: feats from Core/XPH: [indent] IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different natural attack. [/indent] Feats from Secrets of Sarlona: [indent] Ascetic Psion...............req:Narrow Mind....allows you to freely multiclass with Psion and Monk, also use Int to AC instead of Wis, and lets you re-Focus as a Standard action, as well as progresses unarmed Damage Tashalatora..............req:Monastic Training(psionic class)(ECS)....progresses AC, Unarmed Damage, Flurry of Blows [/indent] feats from Champions of Valor: [indent] Carmondine Monk.........req:Int 13, member of special organization(which allows you to freely multiclass with Cleric and Monk) gives: Int to AC and the DC for Stunning fist and Quivering Palm are based on Int instead of Wis, also +2 monk lvls for one of the following(each day you pick one): [indent]1)Unarmed Damage 2)Speed 3)AC[/indent] Silver Fang................Base fort save +4, member or ally of special organization Natural Weapon or Unarmed Strike considered Silver vs DR Sun Soul Monk............ Monk 6, member of special order patron= Selune= +1 point cold damage with unarmed strike and considered Silver vs DR, also +3 monk lvl for Speed bonus [/indent] Feats from Tome of Battle [indent] Superior Unarmed Strike.........+5 monk lvls for Unarmed Damage [/indent] Feats from Eberron Campaign setting book: [indent] Double Steel Strike...Req: Exotic Weapon Prof(2 bladed Sword), Weapon Focus(2 Bladed Sword), Flurry Allows you to treat 2 Bladed Sword as Special Monk Weapon and can Flurry with it Whirling Steel Strike...Req: Martial Weapon Prof(Long Sword), Weapon Focus(Long Sword), Flurry Allows you to treat Long Sword as Special Monk Weapon and can Flurry with it Serpent Strike...Req: Simple Weapon Prof(Long Spear), Weapon Focus(Long Spear), Flurry Allows you to treat Long Spear as Special Monk Weapon and can Flurry with it Flensing Strike ....... Req: Exotic Weapon(Kama), Weapon Focus(Kama) as a Full round action,..1 attack..if hits do normal damage and enemy must save(Fort DC 10+1/2 Character lvl+Wis mod(+2 if using Kama)) or -4 penalty to Attacks, Saves, Checks for 1 min Powerful Charge ....... Medium or Larger, BAB+1 when charging....do extra damage....+1d8 Med,+2d6 Large, +3d6 Huge, +4d6 Gargantuan, +6d6 Colossal Greater Powerful Charge ......Powerful Charge, BAB+4 considered +1 size larger [/indent] Feats from Dracominicon [indent]Endure Blows ..... Req: Con 19, Dragon Type, Toughness gives DR 2/- stacks with existing Rapid Strike .......req: Dex 9, pair of Natural weapons, Type=Aberation,Dragon,Magical Beats,Plant,BAB+10 gain 1 extra attack with natural weapon @ -5 Imp Rapid Strike .......req: Dex 9, pair of Natural weapons, Type=Aberation,Dragon,Magical Beats,Plant,BAB+15,Rapidstrike gain 1 extra attack with natural weapon @ -10 Sense Weakness ......req:Int 13, Combat Expertise, Weapon focus(type of weapon) Ignore 5 points of DR or Hardness [/indent] Feats from Complete Warrior: [indent] Flying Kick ........ req: Str 13, Jump 4 ranks, Imp Unarmed Strike, Power Attack +1d12 damage on charge(with unarmed strike) Improved Toughness ...... req: +2 Base Fort save +1 hp/ HD Combat Brute(tactical feat) Elusive Target(tactical feat) Giant Bane(tactical feat) Raptor School(tactical feat) Shock Trooper(tactical feat) Sun School(tactical feat) ....req: Flurry, BAB+4 1)Hit foe with first 2 unarmed attacks in Flurry..and move foe 5'(you can also move 5') 2)stun foe 2 rounds in row....they are Confused 1d4 rounds also 3)Make attack after instantaneous move(Dimension Door,Teleport,etc)[/indent] Other feats: [indent] KNOCK-DOWN [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15. Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target. HOLD THE LINE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +2. Benefit: You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten. Your attack of opportunity happens immediately before the charge attack is resolved. Normal: You only get an attack of opportunity against a character that exits a square you threaten. FLEET OF FOOT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 15, Run. Benefit: When running or charging, you can make a single direction change of 90 degrees or less. You can’t use this feat while wearing medium or heavy armor, or when carrying a medium or heavy load. If you are charging, you must move in a straight line for 10 feet after the turn to maintain the charge. Normal: Without this feat, you can run or charge only in a straight line.[/indent] Feats from Races of Stone: [indent]Earth Sense .........req: Con 13,Wis 13 while you touch the ground....you can sense # creatures in 20' rad also touching ground Earth Fist(racial) .......... Req: Dwarf, Gnome, Goliath, Earth sense, Imp Unarmed Strike while you touch ground...Unarmed Strike = Cold Iron vs DR Feats from Mini Handbook: [indent] Double Hit Deft Opportunist [/indent] [/indent] :D
#7 jagi_03 Jan 21, 2009 20:15:43	Books: Anything official WotC. Yes Psion//Warblade is the most optimal choice, I just appreciated the fluff for the Ardent more. But this isn't the place for that (I can just adjust it in my background writeup). So take 2: Monk 2/Warblade 4 // Psion (Egoist) 6 Stats: Str:16 Dex:14 Con:16 Int:18 Wis:8 Cha:8 Feats: FR Regional - Blooded Human - Carmadine Monk Level 1 - ? Monk 1 - Stunning Fist Monk 2 - Monastic Training (Psion) Level 3 - Tashalatora Level 6 - ?
#8 jenos Jan 21, 2009 20:24:44	You're going to want to switch that up a bit, I think. You want warblade as your first level to get that BAB. Also carnivore, amazing post. Warblade 1 | Psion 1 Adaptive Style(1) Carmedine Monk(Human) Blooded(Fr regional) Warblade 1/Monk 1 | Psion 2 Stunning Fist(Monk 1) Warblade 1/Monk 2 | Psion 3 Superior Unarmed Strike(3), Monastic Training(Monk 2) Warblade 2/Monk 2 | Psion 4 Warblade 3/Monk 2 | Psion 5 Warblade 4/Monk 2 | Psion 6 Tashalatora(6)
#9 erhnamdj Jan 21, 2009 22:25:23	Actually, if you have access to all Wizards feats and you like Wisdom: 1 paladin//monk - Monastic Training - Law Devotion - Intuitive Attack 2 paladin//ardent 3 paladin//ardent - Serenity 4 paladin//ardent 5 paladin//ardent 6 paladin//ardent - Tashalatora 7 paladin//ardent 8 paladin//ardent 9 paladin//ardent - Battle Blessing
#10 emansdrawkcab Jan 22, 2009 0:21:37	BUILD This build isn't bad, but begs the question: Why not use ToB if you can?
#11 erhnamdj Jan 22, 2009 0:46:47	Why not use ToB if you can? Because you get more without it? Much higher saves, turn undead cheese, smite evil, Paladin spells, the need for nothing other than Wisdom. You don't really get a whole lot of synergy from combining monk (which grants more attacks) with ToB (which, in most cases removes the ability to make full attacks). You get pounce from Ardent. You just wouldn't get much else from ToB.
#12 emansdrawkcab Jan 22, 2009 2:16:29	Because you get more without it? Much higher saves, turn undead cheese, smite evil, Paladin spells, the need for nothing other than Wisdom. You don't really get a whole lot of synergy from combining monk (which grants more attacks) with ToB (which, in most cases removes the ability to make full attacks). You get pounce from Ardent. You just wouldn't get much else from ToB. I wouldn't say you get more out of it. Saves are fine with my build, the weakest being Reflex, the least important save. If someone were really that worried about REF saves, one could take Insightful Reflexes. I don't think Turn Undead, Smite Evil and Paladin spells are better than Maneuvers. Turn Undead is only really good when paired with DMM, and not when you're DMMing Paladin spells. Both our builds have pretty good SAD, but what's so good about WIS? I'd rather have a good INT personally. I do like my skills. As for synergy with ToB and full attacks, that's pretty much how ToB builds reach their ridicullous heights. Avalanche of Blades and the Mongooses, and Time Stands Still, and Island in Time and such... And Pounce is a 1 level dip away for anyone.
#13 erhnamdj Jan 22, 2009 4:57:09	Both our builds have pretty good SAD, but what's so good about WIS? I'd rather have a good INT personally. I do like my skills. My build has a significantly higher attack bonus, thanks to Intuitive Attack. And Law Devotion. At higher levels, those Paladin buffs add up too. It also has access to Shiba Protector for +Wis to attack and damage. But yeah, not having those skill points sucks, though.
#14 carnivore Jan 22, 2009 5:09:16	what does Serenity do?... i forget, does it add Wis to Hp instead of Con? :D
#15 carnivore Jan 22, 2009 5:44:12	Actually, if you have access to all Wizards feats and you like Wisdom: 1 paladin//monk - Monastic Training - Law Devotion - Intuitive Attack 2 paladin//ardent 3 paladin//ardent - Serenity 4 paladin//ardent 5 paladin//ardent 6 paladin//ardent - Tashalatora 7 paladin//ardent 8 paladin//ardent 9 paladin//ardent - Battle Blessing Knowledge Devotion or Travel Devotion or Protection Devotion would be better than Battle Blessing..... since you really wont have that many spells to speed up the casting time on. :D
#16 jagi_03 Jan 22, 2009 5:46:12	Use Wisdom for all Paladin abilities (Divine Grace etc). With that said I had a word with the DM and he's not allowing stuff from other campaign settings (not that he thinks that what I want is too powerful, he just doesn't want to set the precedent). So with that would a straight Psion // Warblade serve me best?
#17 erhnamdj Jan 22, 2009 7:15:03	Bah. Starting at sixth level, I'd say to go with wizard over psion. Trade your wizard feats for fighter bonus feats and take heavy armor proficiency with one of them. Take a level of spellsword at sixth level, then go into some wizard prestige class. Mithral chain shirt would have 0% spell failure. But Warblade//Psion would do you just fine. Not as fun as a monk build, but c'est la vie.
#18 jagi_03 Jan 22, 2009 9:30:42	Yeah I know, but without the likes of Tashalatora I can't see how it would keep pace with the rest of a gestalt party. So take 3: Psion (Egoist) 6 // Warblade 6 Stats: Str:14 Dex:14 Con:16 Int:18 Wis:14 Cha:8 Feats: Regional - Blooded Psion 1 - Extend Power Human - Adaptive Style Level 1 - Level 3 - Psion 5 - Expanded Knowledge: (Psionic Lions Charge) Level 6 - Metamorphic Transfer
#19 carnivore Jan 22, 2009 11:13:19	a Psion 20 is a powerhouse all by himself... so is Warblade 20.... combine the two together: d12 HD Good Will and Fort saves.... can base ref save on Concentration check with a manuver if needed Bonus Feats: 4 from Warblade, 5 from Psion Int based Powers, 9th lvl Powers, Full Psion manifesting.... with Overchannel, can manifest Powers @ 23rd lvl Manifester without any items Int based Class Abilities: [indent] Battle Clarity (Ex): You can enter a state of almost mystical awareness of the battlefield around you. As long as you are not flat-footed, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus (maximum equals your warblade level) on your Reflex saves. Battle Ardor (Ex): The sheer love of battle lends uncanny strength to your blows. Starting at 3rd level, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits. Battle Cunning (Ex): Your instinct for seizing the moment gives you a significant advantage over foes unprepared for your attack. At 7th level, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on melee damage rolls against flat-footed or flanked opponents. Battle Skill (Ex): You anticipate your enemies' ploys and tactics. At 11th level, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on any check made to oppose an enemy's bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt. Battle Mastery (Ex): You notice the most subtle openings and cues offered by your opponents. At 15th level, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on melee attack rolls and melee damage rolls made whenever you make an attack of opportunity.[/indent] Additional Powerful class abilities: Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 6th level and higher, you can no longer be flanked; you can react to opponents on opposite sides of you as easily as you can react to a single attacker. See the barbarian class feature (PH 26) for more information. Stance Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, you can have two stances active simultaneously. When you use a swift action to initiate or change your stance, you can initiate or change one or both stances. Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Your training with a wide range of weaponry and tactics gives you great skill with particular weapons. You qualify for feats that usually require a minimum number of fighter levels (such as Weapon Specialization) as if you had a fighter level equal to your warblade level -2. For example, as a 6th-level warblade, you could take Weapon Specialization, since you're treated as being a 4th-level fighter for this purpose. These effective fighter levels stack with any actual fighter levels you have. Thus, a fighter 2/warblade 4 would also qualify for Weapon Specialization. You also have the flexibility to adjust your weapon training. Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). You must have the newly designated weapon available during your practice session to make this change. For example, if you wish to change the designated weapon for your Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, you must have a longsword available to practice with during your practice session. You can adjust any number of your feats in this way, and you don't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, you can't change the weapon choices in such a way that you no longer meet the prerequisite for some other feat you possess. For instance, if you have both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), you can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless you also change the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way. this is a great build, and it can keep pace with ANY Gestalt Build :D
#20 phaedrusxy Jan 22, 2009 11:21:02	Yeah I know, but without the likes of Tashalatora I can't see how it would keep pace with the rest of a gestalt party. Are you kidding? Tashalatora is nice, but not that nice. The two monk levels mainly just get you a boost to saves, a couple of feats, and Wis/Int to AC. With the way Ardent interacts with Practiced Manifester, you don't really lose much from taking them with it, either. You do have to worry about XP penalties, if you're using that build, though. You'd need to have monk specifically as a favored class, which is more tricky without the Sarlona stuff (Monastic Training). If you want more unarmed damage, monk 2 + Superior Unarmed Strike + Monk's Belt + Improved Natural Attack + Metamorphosis into something with really big freakin' fists should do it. You lose out on getting a better flurry of blows, but that's not that bad, and that's about it.
#21 emansdrawkcab Jan 22, 2009 13:20:50	It depends on what level you plan on playing until however. If you're going to 20+, I'd definitely agree that Warblade 20 is the bomb. Stance Mastery? HELLO. But if not, consider levels of Factotum. More actions per round can do a caster some real good. If you're going well past 20, take the Factotum after 20.