Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 j2.504 Jul 05, 2010 16:14:53	First, I'm 99% sure there is no official errata for Savage Species. My questions deal with monster classes from chapter 3.  (Monster classes, essentially meaning that a higher ecl race is broken into a class-like structure, allowing a character to advance through it from 1st level, until attaining the end of the monster class, at which time the character is treated as a fully developed monster). Here's my questions: 1)  The book says you gain feats and ability scores at every 3rd and 4th levels, in addition to your monster feats/abilities dictated in the monster class you chose.  Is this correct? 2)  The book says monster classes do count against you for multiclass xp penalties.  Is this correct? I've seen some monster classes from more modern 3.5 books.  They do not incur multiclass xp penalties.   Also, the feat progression is usually built into the monster class progression in these newer supplements. Anyway, my way of looking at it is this:  By the end of the monster class progression, you should essentially look exactly like a Monster Manual creature at full power (plus pc style "elite" ability scores, and flavored by your player's choices of feats, etc.).  This would mean you would not get ability score additions every 4th level, nor would multiclass xp penalties apply for your monster class.  Multiclass xp penalties would apply for non-favored classes as normal, but the racial/monster class would not factor into the equation.
#2 salla Jul 05, 2010 16:17:26	1. Yes; specifically, you get feats and ability score bonuses every 3 and 4 Hit Dice, respectively.  A monster with two racial HD and two class levels is entitled to an ability score bump (IIRC) 2. Correct.
#3 j2.504 Jul 05, 2010 16:24:21	I answered half of my question... The FAQ says the monster class does not factor into multiclass xp penalties at all, contrary to what Savage Species states.
#4 urpriest Jul 05, 2010 16:29:45	As for question 1, can you point me to a source that lays out the monster feat progression in the monster class description? As far as I was aware they just give hit dice and bonus feats, assuming that you know that they get feats at regular monster rates.
#5 j2.504 Jul 05, 2010 16:35:36	1. Yes; specifically, you get feats and ability score bonuses every 3 and 4 Hit Dice, respectively.  A monster with two racial HD and two class levels is entitled to an ability score bump (IIRC) That's what Savage Species states.  The problem I have with that (regarding the ability score increases), is I believe that would make your monster class character have higher ability scores than if you had just adopted the monster straight out of Monster Manual at the same equivilant character level. In other words, an 8 level monster class would have a +2 ability score increase above and beyond what the base Monster Manual monster would have at the same equivilant character level. I haven't looked closely enough at the feats, but I believe the 1 feat per 3 levels should be taken, and is accounted for, and would match up with the Monster Manual entry. That's why I question the equation (for ability scores) for monster classes.  It sort of defeats the (unwritten) intent of Monster Classes, which is to end up with the Monster Manual monster at the end of you monster class progression.
#6 j2.504 Jul 05, 2010 17:10:47	As for question 1, can you point me to a source that lays out the monster feat progression in the monster class description? As far as I was aware they just give hit dice and bonus feats, assuming that you know that they get feats at regular monster rates. All of them have the feat progression built into their monster class tables.  Specifically page 28 of Savage Species shows the feats for the minotaur at 1st, 4th, and 8th level within the minataur table.  Races of Destiny (for example) does the same. Here's the problem, which may help clarify why I'm asking these questions: From Savage Species page 27: "Monster Classes and Level Dependent Benefits: A character progressing in a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to table 2-5: Experience and Level Dependent Benefits.  That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-class skills.  Each monster class description specifies when the character gains feats and ability score increases." My confustion regarding the feats/ability scores is caused by: "A character progressing in a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to table 2-5: Experience and Level Dependent Benefits." But then, two sentences later, it states: "Each monster class description specifies when the character gains feats and ability score increases.". At this point, I'm pretty sure ability score increases and feats are already built into the monster class tables.  The last line is the relevant text.  I think the first sentence is probably just poorly worded, causing the confusion.   That would make a lot more sense.  The end result is a monster that matches up with the Monster Manual creature of equivilant level. Additionally, monster classes would not get the +1 ability score every few levels.  Instead, they would use the Monster Class table for their class, which builds in predefined ability scores specific to that monster. Again, I'm open to all suggestions.  I'm not experienced in this area compared to many of you, but I think I'm on the right track.
#7 j2.504 Jul 05, 2010 17:17:06	I think I figured it out.  Actually that paragraph does make some sense... From Savage Species page 27: "Monster Classes and Level Dependent Benefits: A character progressing in a monster class gains feats and ability score increases according to table 2-5: Experience and Level Dependent Benefits.  That table also limits their maximum ranks in class and cross-class skills.  Each monster class description specifies when the character gains feats and ability score increases." What they're saying is the specific monster's table (such as minotaur) is what you use for your feat/ability score progression.  However, when you add regular character class (like fighter), then you use table 2-5 to match your overall character level vs. when you gain ability score and feat increases.  In other words, during your monster class progression, you use the specific monster's feat/ability progression.  But once you've COMPLETED that progression, then you use table 2-5 to figure when you get your feats/ability score increases with your regular class + monster class levels. Regarding Favored class/multiclass penalties, it's fairly clear cut that the Savage Species paragraph is totally wrong, as future books and the FAQ handle it otherwise (no penalties for your Monster Class itself).
#8 urpriest Jul 05, 2010 19:11:49	For feats, if the level progressions are telling you you get a feat every 3 hit dice then there is no contradiction: you follow the progression and you follow the rule. Again, if there's a progression that breaks this then that would be a problem, but I don't think there is one. The progressions simply tell you when you get feats for convenience. I thought you were wrong about ability scores until I looked at some of the monsters  with class levels in the MM. For example, the Hound Archon Hero has, before racial ability bonuses, Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 14. The character has 6 outsider hit dice and 11 paladin hit dice. If they used the elite array (consistent with other monster characters) they used three ability boosts. Total hit dice would give four, while paladin hit dice only would give two. However, not getting any bonuses from outsider hit dice but then getting bonuses according to level as you describe gives three. Thus, you're right, this seems to be how monster characters work.