Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tytalus Sep 29, 2008 14:06:46	Monster Manual 2 has the interesting Monster of Legend Template, which has some fun aspects to it. The big problem, however, is the utterly devastating LA of +7 (see 3.5 Update Booklet). Is there any way to make it work? mechanics Applies to: Animals, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids Type changes to: Outsider (native) Gains: Natural Armor +6 All saves +3 STR +10, DEX +6, CON +10, INT +2, WIS +2, CHA +4 Improved Initiative, Multiattack Special Attack: Choose one of: Breath Weapon (3D6 damage) Frightful Presence Poisonous Bite Raging Blood (1D4 damage to all within 5ft cone whenever damaged) Spellcasting (as 5th-level cleric with War, Protection, and Strength domains) Special Qualities: Choose two of: DR 10/magic Enhanced Attributes (DCs of spells, spell-likes, and special attacks +4) Fast Healing 4, Greater Damage (as Improved Natural Attack) Haste (as spell) Immunities (2 of: acid, electricity, fear, poison, polymorphing, mind-affecting) Reflective Hide (as permanent Spell Turning) Regrow Limbs (any, within 1 round) See in Darkness (incl. magical), Spell Resistance (10+1/2 HD) Subtype (fire or cold)
#2 phaxi Sep 29, 2008 16:07:34	You don't get 9th level spells with that build. You'll get 3rd level monster of legend spells and 7th level cleric spells. Casting spells as a cleric =/= spells stacking with the cleric class. It's a very bad template, you should be getting all those abilities, not choose a few of them.
#3 tytalus Sep 30, 2008 1:38:44	You don't get 9th level spells with that build. You'll get 3rd level monster of legend spells and 7th level cleric spells. Casting spells as a cleric =/= spells stacking with the cleric class. Interesting claim, but no. If you cast as a cleric, you do just that. And further cleric levels increase your casting. Or can you cite a rule reference? Note that there are no "monster of legend spells" note also that it's well-accepted on these boards that such things stack. For example, the White Dragonspawn [DLCS] template, which grants the ability to "cast spells as a 1st-level sorcerer" stacks with sorcerer levels. This is the basis for all those many cheesy kobold sorcererer builds that have a sorcerer spell progression ahead of their actual ECLs (plus using other tricks). Before that, there were Sylph [MM2] sorcerer builds, epic Black Ethergaunt [FF] wizard builds, Sharn [MoF] mystic theurge builds etc. Most of those are archived now, though, since those books came out a while ago.
#4 phaxi Sep 30, 2008 3:34:54	I'm away from books, but doesnt dragonspawn specifically say "if you already got levels in sorcerer, you add +1 caster level" or something like that? Theres a huge difference between adding mystic theurge to Sharn and adding cleric to monster of legends. Mystic theurge adds "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/ +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" per level. Clerics got their own spells per day table. What you're claiming is essentially that you could for instance, add your bard spellcasting to your assassin spellcasting. An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.
#5 natenate Sep 30, 2008 3:45:46	It's casting spells as though he had that many levels in Cleric, same as all racial spellcasting. Taking class levels in whatever class whose spell progression your racial casting uses will further increase the same spellcasting ability that you already have. This goes for every racial spellcasting ability in the game that goes off a class spellcasting progression. In this case, his Monster of Legend domains would count his racial HD in place of his Cleric level for level-dependent benefits of their granted powers, and at Cleric 1 he would gain two additional domains which would function normally. I would probably go Cleric 2/ Church Inquisitor 4/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 3.
#6 tytalus Sep 30, 2008 4:51:50	I'm away from books, but doesnt dragonspawn specifically say "if you already got levels in sorcerer, you add +1 caster level" or something like that? In the ways the template is usually used here, it's applied to the base race, before sorcerer levels are taken, so that point is moot. What you're claiming is essentially that you could for instance, add your bard spellcasting to your assassin spellcasting. Not really. Your quote refers to spontaneous casting (vs. prepared spells) only. Also, assassins have their own spell list. If it said "an assassin casts spells as a 5th level bard" it would be a different issue. Either way, for the purpose of this thread, let's simply assume that the MoL spellcasting is in all ways equivalent to a 5th level cleric's spellcasting. I would probably go Cleric 2/ Church Inquisitor 4/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 3. Nice. And we could even shave off another cleric level, since MoL adds +3 to all base saves. Any other builds?
#7 ikildkenny Sep 30, 2008 6:19:12	maybe some kind of Monk/Sacred Fist Build: Goliath1/MoL7/Monk5/SacredFist7 Take Cleric Casting, FastHealing/Greater Damange and Haste as specials Feats: 1st:Combat Casting, Stunning Fist 2nd:Combat Reflexes 3rd:Free (I would take Power Attack) 6th:Improved Natural Attack 9th:Superior unarmed Strike 12th:Free nets you cleric lvl 12(10) Casting, Unarmed Damage of a Gargantuan lvl 16 Monk (6d8), with flurry (and Haste and Divine Power) you get a Bab of 11/11/11/6/1 + STR and any kind of buffs Alternativly you could skip goliath as base race and be human, taking one level of cloistered cleric instead - you still keep your d8 HD, 3 Domains, skills ... same amount of Att, but with less damage (4d8+buffs), 3 Domains aka Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Undeath domain (and thus at least 7 Turnattempts for a total of 8 minutes of travel devoting)
#8 phoenix00 Sep 30, 2008 19:38:11	Combining the DCs of Special Abilities+4 with a very powerful strength or con based ability (which you get +10 to that stat) would be quite powerful. Especially if combine with primeval which can get you massive stat boosts. (Hey didn't saint also have a similar +2 to all special abilities?) ---- Or you can focus on an immunity build, something with regeneration plus immunities, plus spell turning, plus anything else to keep it immortal.