I'll start with some general buildings concepts about my favorite monster before i go into make actual builds, and my favorite monster is: True Dragons! Any (or at least almost all) of them.
-These creatures have the best Base Attack (plus a lot of natural attacks depending on their size category) and ALL good Saves, and these things don't end in the poor Epic Progression like a class character would do;
-They have the best Hit Dice too and the second best skill point gaining per HD;
-They have useful spell-like abilities (depending on the species) and a supernatural breath weapon that can be improved by metabreath feats and metabreath spells (and metabreath spells can be improved by metamagic feats);
-They can fly lol, and depending on the species they have others movement modes and/or a good to perfect maneuverability;
-They are the only creatures in D&D that can reach the Colossal+ size;
-They have a weak spellcasting ability when compared to fullspellcasters;
-Despite their raw power they don't have a lot of immunities like constructs and undeads do.
So in order to fix some of this traits i bring here some degrees of optimization:
-Abjurant Champion 5 raises its spellcaster level up to its Base Attack, what means that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, for instance, would have caster level of 45 instead of 19, an adult would have 27 instead of 7, a Colossal+ 52 HDs Red Dragon would have 57 instead of 27, and so on;
-Half-Celestial/Half-Fiend fix the "problem" of being only the second best at gaining skill points by changing the type's creature to outsider and giving it outsider's skill points;
-Templates or Prestige Classes to add Construct or Undead immunities to the dragon: Dracolich, Green Star Adept 10, Pale Master 10, and any others PrC and Templates we can remember!
-If you go with Pale Master, he has a Save or Die touch that raises who dies as zombies under the Pale Master control, and he can create and control a limitless number of zombies with this ability, but the Pale Master can only affect with this ability creatures with up to one size category larger than him, so a dragon of Gargantuan size can affect anyone with this (if Colossal+ is considered a separated size from Colossal, then the dragon needs to be Colossal in order to affect Colossal+ ones with this);
-Finally, after all these fixes and such, there's one thing left: Regeneration. If you guys know a way of puting this into dragons let me know, please!
Speaking of Regeneration, my next concept will be a War Troll with templates and PrC to aid its "acid weakness" and turn it immune to (almost) everything!
C ya.
The Prc thing works fairly well, stuff like Abjurant Champion and other caster advancing builds can make a caster focused dragon encounter work really well, usually being a better caster at a far lower CR.
Speaking of Regeneration, my next concept will be a War Troll with templates and PrC to aid its "acid weakness" and turn it immune to (almost) everything!
The tainted-blood template (Bestiary of Krynn) gives immunity to acid damage. It's +1 CR for large creatures and also +1 LA. It can be added to any corporeal creature with a constitution score.
The Imix-blooded template (Monster Manual V) gives immunity to fire damage by way of the fire subtype. It's +1 CR and also +1 LA. It can be applied to any evil creature.
The gheden template (Dragon 313, p63) gives immunity to nonlethal damage. It's +1 LA but doesn't note a CR adjustment. It can be applied to any giant, humanoid, of monstous humanoid.
The troll-blooded feat (Dragon 319, p61) gives regeneration 1 overcome by acid and fire. It can only be taken at 1st level and requires the toughness feat. It's also a regional feat for the Greyhawk campaign setting.
Of course, if you don't really care about your draconic spellcasting (especially if you're one of the MM5's xorvintaal dragons) the Dragon Ascendant, Elemental Master, and Hidecarved Dragon prestige classes from the Draconomicon are already designed for you, Dragon Ascendant being the best of them, though also the most costly to enter.
Andarious-Rosethorn indeed that dragons are so much about tactics, but they are so much about raw power too, and this is an optimization thread after all, so both tactics and power and any other aspects of dragons should be optimized! About Shivering Touch:
Being immune to ability damage works against Shivering Touch (since it's Dex damage), so dragons don't need always to rely on cold immunity in order to protect against this spell, they can rely on construct or undead templates, or any others templates or PrC that gives them immunity to ability damage (Pale Master, for instance).
Maat_Mons thanks for these tips! I was already thinking about an Human with the Troll Blooded feat and some levels in an Eberron PrC that turns you into a living construct (i forgot the name of this PrC), then i would be qualified to take levels in Warforged Juggernaut turning my character into a construct WITHOUT LOSING CONSTITUTION! What means i could keep Regeneration, which is awesome combined with construct traits AND immunity to both acid and fire acquired through some template or other PrC (Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant, anyone?).
There are just 2 problems:
1)Fire immunity can be pierced with Searing Spell from Sandstorm, THEN i could go with War Troll since it's not fire-weak, but War Trolls don't qualify to entering that Eberron PrC that turns you into a living construct (needs to be humanoid not giant), so i should research others ways of acquiring immunities;
2)Troll Blooded is a Greyhawk feat and Warforged Construct is an Eberron PrC, but who cares about that when optimazing?!
Slagger_the_Chuul i already had thought about Walker in the Waste, but i hadn't about the Winterhaunt of Iborighu! Thanks for that, it looks appealing both in roleplay and in optimization.
About the Draconomicon prestiges, i wanted to do something with them without losing spellcasting, but that's kind hard... Including there was a time that i ignored spellcasting a little and tried to go with a Colossal+ 52 HD Red Dragon Barbarian 20/Bloodscaled Fury 12/Rage Mage 10/Frenzied Berserk 10 (yeah lol this is kinda too much, but i just wanted to make some "God of Rage" without resorting to Divine Rules), but i realized that all of these 52 class Hit Dices were weaker than just adding more racial HDs (virtual age categories) to the dragon.
Finally then i want to thanks all of you again, and say that i'll try optimize others monsters in this topic and you guys should try that too! If you don't wanna create builds just throw here your general concepts and i will make something with it. To close this post i let here a partial build (just the levels and feats) with an interesting monster:
Choker (from SRD) Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Cleric 1/Swift Blade 9
I used Middle Age modifiers (-1 physical +1 mental abilty scores) and Elite Ability Scores Array to give it as maximum Int and Cha as i can (it needs Concentration 6 and Spellcraft 6 for Swift Blade, and it has -6 Int... It ends with Cha 16 giving me 6th spells from Sorcerer 6 + 6 from Swift Blade 9 = 12 spellcaster level).
With the Fighter feat and some other feat i get Dodge and Mobility (requirements of Swift Blade), then i take Extend Spell -> Persistent Spell + Divine Magic (i need some domain that gives me Extra Turning, like the Undeath Domain from Libris Mortis), now i just persist Haste and since Swift Blade turns Haste into an Extraordinary Effect it can't be dispelled or affected by Antimagic Field! And the better: Quickness from Choker and Perpetual Options from Swifty when combined gives me 1 full-round actions + 2 standart actions or 3 standart actions instead (and still there is movement, free, swift and immediate actions...)!
This thing has CR around 15, casts 6th spells as a Sorcerer 12, has +15 Base Attack, 50% miss chance of ALL attacks against it, multiple actions and it has a flavour-fluffy thing about it.
I.e. the half dragon abyssal troll combo won't work.
==Aelryinth
Note that if you have a form of regeneration that stops with a vulnerability, and then the monster is made invulnerable to the weakness, the regeneration has been errata'd to be reduced to mere fast healing, not unstoppable regen.
I.e. the half dragon abyssal troll combo won't work.
I don't remember that errata; to which book does it relate?
Four words: Half red dragon Tarrasque
Why would it need to be a half-red dragon? It's already immune to fire.
Obs: I'm having problems formating these posts xD
The "problem" with Tarrasque is that its Regeneration gets defeated by Wish, and others Regenerations doesn't.
Other regenerations could be stopped by wish just as easily; they simply don't bother to state it since they don't have the tarrasque's all-powerful regeneration that works against pretty much anything that can "kill" it. For example, death effects can usually slay a creature with regeneration outright, regardless of what energy types can harm it, the tarrasque, not so much.
Since that's not stated i didn't know that, but even if Acid Immunity gives War Troll the Tarrasque's Regeneration and not a "Perfect Regeneration", it still can get Undead traits without losing Cons (to don't lose Regen) which includes immunity to nonlethal damage, and all we know that all damage against Regeneration is nonlethal but the thing that beats it (in this case is acid, but the troll is immune).
It's the only thing that the regeneration ability actually states, apart from regrowing limbs. Damage (which, unless otherwised noted is hit point damage) is converted to nonlethal damage, and that nonlethal damage is recovered at whatever rate the specific creature's regeneration states. Things like ability damage (from poison and similar effects), death effects (such as the slay living spell), negative levels, and so on can all kill a creature regardless of how much regeneration it possesses.
So, simple acid immunity doesn't give a war troll regeneration on the same level as the tarrasque, because the tarrasque's regeneration is an extra-powerful version that works against things that aren't simply hit point damage (and the tarrasque is also outright immune to a lot of things that normally bypass regeneration).
Voidmind War Troll Wizard 5/Pale Master 10 = CR 22, just 2 more than Tarrasque, but much more immunities (mainly against nonlethal), and if someone knows a way to get Vampiric Touch as a 2th level spell then we could go with Wizard 3 and this thing would have the same CR as Tarrasque. The only "problems" that i see with this creature is that unlike undeads it still needs to breathe, eat, sleep, and still ages normally, but i'm sure there's ways of getting rid of these, unfortunately the CR would increase.
There's others things that this creature is not immune to, but not all of them can vanish, still it's better than Tarrasque.
EDIT: But you just need Pugilist or Improved Resiliency since both do the same thing.
Wish only works to kill the tarrasque if it's taken enough nonlethal damage. If you make it immune to nonlethal damage, it's unkillable.
If you want to deal with the need to eat, breath, and sleep, the paraelemental templates from Dragon 347 (pages 58-65) might help.
As far as I know, credit has to go to Maat Mons for discovering that trick.
That said I think undead's one of the weakest ways to become immune to ability damage and non-lethal damage. You are still vulerable to several things including BoED's afflictions (which will ruin the day of most undead). Also, turning outright destroys the undead in question, as can Disintigrate (which will work on construct based variants as well).
Nope; Shake it off changes all damage to non-lethal. Improved Resiliency makes you immune to non-lethal damage. And that's at level 1. Level 3 if you want to go Warforged Juggernaut, since that requires a 1st-level only feat.
Warforged Juggernaut already is immune to non-lethal damage, so i personally would go with Improved Resiliency and would drop Pugilist since i didn't like this Fighter variant.
You want to be immune? Fine: Warforged Pugilist with Shake it Off class ability, Improved Resiliency feat, and Warforged Juggernaut PrC.
I, personally, prefer Troll-Blooded Bone Knight, but that's just me. Less immunity in an AMF(Unless you're pulling out Initiate of Mystra), but so much more raw power.
Also, I'm surprised nobody's posted the gold standard Ikea Tarrasque yet.
WTF what a monster. In the end of that post JeminiZero points that Ikea Tarrasque is not immune against certain things, then there i go with 10 levels of Entropomancer to get immune against Sphere of Annihillation, 10 levels of Master of Many Forms to get immune against any Transmutation effects (it includes Petrification), and some template to get Death Effect immunity. Against the other things i don't think there's a way to get immune, like the Pyroclastic Dragon Breath.
Spark of Life anyone? I'd look out for using Undead Templates to gain immunity to non-lethal. And while I love a good CO excercise I tend to not enjoy the ones that revolve around creating something nobody would use, or want to see used. Although sometimes you find a gem while making these things.
That said I think undead's one of the weakest ways to become immune to ability damage and non-lethal damage. You are still vulerable to several things including BoED's afflictions (which will ruin the day of most undead). Also, turning outright destroys the undead in question, as can Disintigrate (which will work on construct based variants as well).
But you don't need to be Undead, you only will get its immunities, so you'll not be vulnerable to Turning. And Disintegrate deals damage that is turned into non-lethal and then the creature has immunity against it, even if it's not the case, a Master of Many Forms is immune against any Transmutation effects, and Disintegrate is a Transmutation spell.
I thought Monstrous Humanoids counted as Humanoids for the purpsoses of prereqs and templates. There's other Large humanoids or giants that'll do the job, surely (need to be within one size category of the Huge Battletitan).
I don't recall reading any general rule for this (lest you bust out the Tauric Centaur - twice as much horse as the human body can hold, and he's only half-human!). There's a few feats that do similar things, but those always seem to work with subtypes (i.e. you might end up being an Outsider (Human)), rather than types themselves.
For everyone else, yes, RT really does love undercosted CR effects. Most of what we've fought in Dead for Nothing, monster-wise, is from the deliberately under-CR Monster Manual 3, and several of them have been advanced or templated in other ways. He refers to it as "D&D on Legendary" and it shows. (Although not insurmountable - our team has been able to handle everything he's thrown at us so far.)
Despite the Choker has one more standart action per round, the Drake can uses its movement actions as free actions, what means it may be more tactical, and it has better Initiative checks and a lot of useful abilities. While the Choker has around CR 15, this new Swift Blade Monster has around CR 23 which is kind high, so i don't know if it's worth.
Any thoughts?
At the first i don't think so because Blurred Alacrity states that Displacement or similar spell effects doesn't stack with it, BUT happens that Temporal Displacement is not a spell effect (it's a supernatural effect) and it even doesn't work like Displacement (Displacement works giving you Total Concealment which can be nullified by True Seeing, and TD works giving you 20% miss chance for all attacks against you and it doesn't get past by True Seeing and such).
I'm a huge fan of getting the best bang for your CR buck, and have a weakness for under-CRed template combinations. Phrenic lycanthropes are a personal favourite of mine (if you have the MM3, use a Blackscale Lizardfolk as your base humanoid and a battletitan dinosaur as your base animal).
This does not work. Blackscale Lizardfolk are Medium. Battletitans are Huge. Therefore, Blackscale Lizardfolk is inelligable.
It isn't? I'm away from my MM3 now but I was POSITIVE those guys were large. Screw it, Ogre it is then.
And nothing, NOTHING beats the under-CRed monstrousity that is the Adamantine Horror.
I consider that, like the Ruby Golem, to be a brainfart on the part of the monster writers. And I'll raise you a Monstrous Crab
Tempest: Am I forgiven for the DMG2 Mob Template? Cuz I wanna use that one again.
As for the Mob template? Let's just say it goes really well with outsiders and other creatures whose racial HD grant perfect BAB. And who tend to have the resistances that make area effect blasting less effective. I've got a better base creature in mind to use the mob template on than what I used in that game though.
It's not any better, since it just means you've got more distractions, and unless you effectively disable the adamantine horror (by blinding it with shatter, or by some other means) it's simply going to spam high-level spells at you until you die, but maybe you'll feel slightly better by dying at the hands of an entire assembly, rather than a single creature.
A good candidate for battle titan lycanthropy would however be either a half oger, orge, or war troll since the topic is on them.
Not quite: a phrenic werebattletitan war troll will end up in the CR ranges where the PCs can actually do something against such a monstrosity. An ogre or half-ogre will still be low enough CR to make the PCs wonder "the *$&@?".
Ephemeral Swarm
*looks innocently to the side*
*avoids eye contact with Tempest or any other members of my gaming group*
And this is a story I'd like to hear.
Blinding doesn't matter. Oh, yes, you'll stop its Disintegrate and impare its Disjunction, but then it'll just spam Implosion, and at that level, there's still a good chance they'll fail their saves.
You can't use a targeted spell on something unless you can see or touch it.
It knows all Enchantment and Necromancy spells, so it can take levels of Specialist Wizard dropping these schools, then take Ultimate Magus and Master Spellthief to synergize everything.
And if you wanna go really high, the Great Wyrm Hex Dragon can, as a Free Action, make anyone who damaged (Hit Points and Ability Damage only) it going through a Save (Will) or Die effect based on a Sphere of Annihilation, then you can apply an Undead Template to it since Undeads can only be destroyed by HP or Ability damage which are the two things that allow the Hex Dragon using its Save or Die ability.
No love for monsters with class levels?
Sorry if i went too epic with these dragons, the point is that i love to build Great Wyrms with Prestige Classes or something lol
Now i'm thinking about improving monsters with spellcasting, so this link can be useful:
www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=158...
Both Gloura and Nymph have CHA to AC and Saves, besides that Gloura is a good candidate for Sublime Chord while Nymph is for Mystic Theurge/Arcane Hierophant, the only problem is that Nymph's LA is too high for an easy LA buyoff, but this topic isn't just about optimizing monsters as players, but as challenges against the players too, so CR will be a more important stat rather than LA sometimes.
A good thing that could be done is add levels of a strong non-associated class on a powerful monster, this way its CR wouldn't get so much high and we would have a powerful weapon in our hands depending on how much sinergy this class has with this monster (theoretically they shouldn't have sinergy since we're dealing with a non-associated class, but we know that it doesn't work like this always).
Technically speaking, 5 levels of a martial adept class make them CR 16-- and that's if you consider them to be directly associated classes. They pick up 9th level maneuvers from those 5 levels though-- this technically works with almost any high hit dice creature.Adding Desert Wind maneuvers to a fire elemental makes for a much more flavorful fight though and the same can be said of a number of the other schools. (Tornado Throw was fun with an elemental with a 180 foot speed.)
A good thing that could be done is add levels of a strong non-associated class on a powerful monster, this way its CR wouldn't get so much high and we would have a powerful weapon in our hands depending on how much sinergy this class has with this monster (theoretically they shouldn't have sinergy since we're dealing with a non-associated class, but we know that it doesn't work like this always).
When it comes to "associated" and "non-associated" classes I'll usually just assume that if a class is strong for the build it will be an associated class. To put it another way I believe a "non-associated class" really needs to play against what one would normally use monster for while staying behind what an associated class would give.
For example I would NOT consider Cleric to be a "non-associated" class with many fighting type monsters which would consider Fighter to be an associated class. Why? Look at it this way if I add Cleric4 to a monster and it only adds +2 CR while Fighter 2 adds +2 CR which is actually better? The fighter gets +2 BAB vs. +3 from the Cleric, +2d10 HD vs +4d8 HD, +3/0/0 vs +4/+1/+4 in saves and so on. The fighter does get martial weapons but the monster probably has that already. The fighter gets two bonus feats but the Cleric could gain a feat from it's domain and will definitely hit another feat due to the extra HD plus it also gets four levels of spellcasting assuming the monster has any WIS at all. As this example is showing there is little reason for Cleric to be a "non-associated class" if Fighter would be considered an "associated class."
When it comes to optimizing monsters using class levels there are just so many options and it is even better (or worse) when you consider that monsters can sometimes move directly into PrC classes. Maybe the feat and skill requirements are too much (or it really wants the kick butt familiar) but why would a Dragon with natural spellcasting ability ever take levels in Sorcerer which it could take Abjurant Champion or any number of other PrCs that would advance its spellcasting? Ok, this is definitely an example where you could see "non-associated" levels if Sorcerer is taken but when a Dragon is a natural spellcaster should spellcasting levels really be considered non-associated.
Ok, this is definitely an example where you could see "non-associated" levels if Sorcerer is taken but when a Dragon is a natural spellcaster should spellcasting levels really be considered non-associated.
The rules on associated/non-associated class levels address that directly actually-- if a creature has natural spellcasting then a spellcasting class that boosts that is always associated. (Adding cleric to a creature with sorcerer spellcasting on the other hand wouldn't be.)
I do think non-associated is appropriate for spellcasters, clerics, etc... on some "brute" monsters though simply because it allows the spellcasting to become a valid part of the monster. No one cares if the CR 14 giant casts cure light wounds. If he tosses down a few 4th or 5th level spells though? That's suddenly a legitimate part of the encounter.
That said, CR in general and associated/non-associated class levels in general can be abused way beyond the breaking point far more easily than standard optimization-- almost accidentally honestly. My favorite quote when I was running the elementals was in an interaction with PhoenixInferno:
Balthanon: I have pretty much been steadily increasing the CR on these guys as we've gone
to tell the truth. When the encounter is over, I'll make sure to post their stats.
PhoenixInferno: Why...why would you do that?
My comment was, of course, because I had been revising my CR estimate, but I got a kick out of the response.
The Tome of Battle thing does work well with dragons too, but they have so much going for them it tends to be an afterthought. They also aren't quite as cost efficient in terms of hit dice per CR. Elementals are up there in that regards along with giants and undead. Animals are actually really good for that too, which makes lycanthropes kind of deadly-- lycanthrope is just an absolutely deadly template in the hands of a DM period though.
Thanks for all replying!
StevenO your point has logic, but i'm going through Rules As Written so even in this case of the Cleric-or-Fighter Monster i would do as SRD says:
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.
Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.
Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.
A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.
Anyway, you've made your point and i agree with that, but for optimizing purposes i'll use RAW.
Balthanon thanks for the insight with the Maneuvers! I had not thought about that and now you're saying looks like a really nice combo!
About Lycanthropes:
What could be the Base Giant or Humanoid with Battletitan Dinosaur Lycanthrope Template?
I took a look on War Troll, but it is Monstrous Humanoid so it doesn't count, but if it counted we could apply Voidmind Template too.
StevenO your point has logic, but i'm going through Rules As Written so even in this case of the Cleric-or-Fighter Monster i would do as SRD says:
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.
Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.
A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.
Anyway, you've made your point and i agree with that, but for optimizing purposes i'll use RAW.
And if you use that it is really over optimizing CR and really defeating the difference. I have a hard time saying Cleric levels aren't an "associated" class for just about everything because everyone has clerics and they fight as well as or even better then fighters. From an optimization stand point I couldn't see taking a number of levels in Fighter when I could easily add twice that many in cleric for the same CR increase because cleric would be considered non-associated.
I know that CRs and ELs may be far from exact/perfect but some things really start throwing things off. I'll say blind devotion to the rules is one of them although ignorance of what some power up provides ("rolled stats" that equate to PB 50+ for example) can be just as bad if not worse.
(Tornado Throw was fun with an elemental with a 180 foot speed.)
...this worries me coming from my DM.
(Unless you count the vampire encounter. Or possibly the vasuthant encounter. Maybe the akritaur displacer too...)