I.E two characters optimized to provide support to one another for example the long reach chain fighter to keep people @ a distance and another characters whos sole purpose is damage from afar.
Any thoughts on building the optimized tag team?
ive searched the forums but found nothing but specific single character optimizations.
Ive heard of some prestige classes gaining bonuses for having other party members of the same class but ive sifted through all my books to no evail.
Combine this with a save or suck caster, preferably with AoE save or sucks that he can cast on top of you to hit everyone around you, and you're good to go.
JaronK
I mean it's an obvious combo, and people say it doesn't work with the trip AC bonus, but it was never a problem. He hit everything I didn't trip usually, and even if it was a solo BBEG that I kept on the ground, he had Ascetic Hunter with a couple 10ft trick items that he used in those situations. Kept him with a wand of cure moderate that he used in crazy situations, but there wasn't much we had trouble with.
The best part of this duo is you really have the out of combat roles covered, too. I also played this as a three-man party with a Druid. Lots of fun.
Both were 5th level games. One duo was an archer and a conjurer/alienist, where the conjured monsters sat and blocked off opponents while the archer shot stuff and the conjurer did stinking cloud and stuff. Another was a shield-based fighter and a White Raven spec'd warblade - it worked pretty well, since the warblade had a ton of HP and gave the shield guy a lot of attack and damage bonuses.
Right now I'm in a low-level team arena where my group is going to use escalating fear effects through Scare and Intimidating Rage. It should be interesting.
Best,
David
Best,
David
My favorite idea is for
Focused Abjurer3/master specialist10/initiate of the sevenfold veil7
banned evocation, necromancy, & conjuration
and a
Focused Evoker3/master specialist10/geometer5/(something)2
banned enchantment, transmutation, abjuration
Or something to that effect.
I am currently in a game where I'm running an optimized bard and another player is playing a focused conjurer build using varient abilities from the unearthed arcana book.
Bardic music/buffs + lots of (decently enhanced) summons = happy joyfulness
another interesting combination would be someone doing a two-man party.
one player would be a gish and another would be a rogue/divine caster (daggerspell shaper, perhaps).
Lots of interesting combinations can be done, especially when you can involve up to and including an entire group. I've been able to get my feet wet a little bit in trying these with enemy NPC groups in games I've run.
never ever ban transmutation or conjuration :P
No reason not to ban either conjuration or transmutation any more than any other school of magic.
There are only a few spells from any school that are 'must haves' that can't be replicated in magic items if they're that necessary to obtain, but I don't feel that way about any spell anymore.
No reason not to ban either conjuration or transmutation any more than any other school of magic.
There are only a few spells from any school that are 'must haves' that can't be replicated in magic items if they're that necessary to obtain, but I don't feel that way about any spell anymore.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of things to consider:
- Conjuration and transmutation are the strongest schools of magic. They are those that are worthy of specializing, not dropping.
- Teleport, Grease, Summon Monster X, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Web, Alter Self, Haste, Gaseous Form, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Planar Binding, Teleport, Polymorph Any Object, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop. You can't lose those. Not for specializing in evocation or abjuration. Evocation is more or less useless and abjuration only has a handful of useful spells (mainly dispels).
- You can't use use-activated items if the spell they contain is from a banned school. That means you need UMD and it is not that easy to get if you are a wizard.
Enchantment
Evocation
:D
Spellthief/Shadowcraft Mage
Warlock/Nosomatic Chirurgeon
Specifically im interested in peoples thoughts about optimizing duo characters.
I.E two characters optimized to provide support to one another for example the long reach chain fighter to keep people @ a distance and another characters whos sole purpose is damage from afar.
Any thoughts on building the optimized tag team?
ive searched the forums but found nothing but specific single character optimizations.
Ive heard of some prestige classes gaining bonuses for having other party members of the same class but ive sifted through all my books to no evail.
what do you want to optimize the duo for?
Unfortunately, there are a lot of things to consider:
- Conjuration and transmutation are the strongest schools of magic. They are those that are worthy of specializing, not dropping.
they're certainly the strongest at conjurations and transmutations. They also have a lot of spells that dip a little bit into the other school of magic's shtick (conjuration has numberous blasty spells, for example).
But they're hardly the strongest. Transmutation certainly had that title in 3e when polymorph & time stop were more awesome and teleport was a transmutation spell, but that doesn't appear to be the case anymore.
Teleport, Grease, Summon Monster X, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust, Web, Alter Self, Haste, Gaseous Form, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Planar Binding, Teleport, Polymorph Any Object, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop. You can't lose those. Not for specializing in evocation or abjuration. Evocation is more or less useless and abjuration only has a handful of useful spells (mainly dispels).
They're all certainly handy spells, but wizards have other tremendously useful spells that I would pick over those and perform quite well within a game. I mean, if there's a spell so desparately awesome that I simply can't have a wizard without it, then I'll plug ranks in use magic device or make magic items to replicate the necessary effects and be done with it.
The only spell you mentioned that I would consider worth that much would be teleport (and maybe dimension door), which is easily aquirable without needing to cast it from a spellbook.
If you think evocation and abjuration are weak, that's your perogative to think that, but I handidly disagree.
You can't use use-activated items if the spell they contain is from a banned school. That means you need UMD and it is not that easy to get if you are a wizard.
I never implied that use-activated items could be used without UMD - the implication was in regard to items that don't require spellcasting ability - like a helm of teleportation or boots of speed, which merely require a free (or some other) action to activate.
A human wizard should be getting around 5 skill points/level - it should be easy enough to plug one set of that into UMD and the rest into other skills. Otherwise, it would just be a matter of optimizing a UMD check - which is also easy enough.
Though it isn't strictly necessary to go so far out of your way to garner the ability to cast a few spells that aren't on your list. If I bothered to go that far with UMD, I would probably be doing so in order to cast cleric or druid spells.
Sorcerers, however, have an easier time optimizing UMD than wizards do if for no other reason than because of their considerably higher charisma score.
they're certainly the strongest at conjurations and transmutations. They also have a lot of spells that dip a little bit into the other school of magic's shtick (conjuration has numberous blasty spells, for example).
But they're hardly the strongest. Transmutation certainly had that title in 3e when polymorph & time stop were more awesome and teleport was a transmutation spell, but that doesn't appear to be the case anymore.
Well, they certainly are the strongest in conjurations and transmutations since they are the only ones that got them
You need to compare those two in terms of damage, save-or-suck and utility spells.
Compare conjuration to evocation. Evocation has direct damage spells (boring). Conjuration can out damage easily an evocation spell with a summon. Moreover you get to do nasty stuff with your summons (like grapple, or maybe they have a useful spell-like ability!). Banning evocation you lose, what? Wall of Force and Contigency and you can replicate contigency with shadow evocation. Conjuration also has planar binding, which is a base for broken stuff.
I like abjuration, but has only a few great spells to be worthy of specialization. Namely, protection from x, dispel magic and mind blank. Comparing transmutation to abjuration, transmutation has probably the best all-around spell, polymorph. It can outdamage evocation (with a hydra form) and does great work at buffing, too.
They're all certainly handy spells, but wizards have other tremendously useful spells that I would pick over those and perform quite well within a game. I mean, if there's a spell so desparately awesome that I simply can't have a wizard without it, then I'll plug ranks in use magic device or make magic items to replicate the necessary effects and be done with it.
The only spell you mentioned that I would consider worth that much would be teleport (and maybe dimension door), which is easily aquirable without needing to cast it from a spellbook.
If you think evocation and abjuration are weak, that's your perogative to think that, but I handidly disagree.
All schools have useful spells. However, transmutation offers, say, 10 useful spells when abjuration offers 4 or 5 and evocation 2. Because specializing gives you bonus slots, the best thing to do is to specialize in the school that offers the most useful stuff. Straightforward no :P? That way you can spend less money on items that replicate those spells, too.
I never implied that use-activated items could be used without UMD - the implication was in regard to items that don't require spellcasting ability - like a helm of teleportation or boots of speed, which merely require a free (or some other) action to activate.
A human wizard should be getting around 5 skill points/level - it should be easy enough to plug one set of that into UMD and the rest into other skills. Otherwise, it would just be a matter of optimizing a UMD check - which is also easy enough.
Though it isn't strictly necessary to go so far out of your way to garner the ability to cast a few spells that aren't on your list. If I bothered to go that far with UMD, I would probably be doing so in order to cast cleric or druid spells.
Sorcerers, however, have an easier time optimizing UMD than wizards do if for no other reason than because of their considerably higher charisma score.
Those items are not good enough. And you can't put a spell in a wand and expect to be good every time (there are great spells that require caster level to work or a higher DC). Spending ranks on UMD can work sometimes, but you can see results at mid to high levels. After all charisma is a dump stat and your priority isn't boosting UMD rolls.
Just for comparison, what spells do you consider extremely beneficial?
Wasn't there a contest about making two characters work together?
I remember that too - it was there "the Word" and "the Wish" were made, right?
It's certainly your opinion that direct damage spells are useless, but I handidly disagree, which is why I think my particular duo works. (you'll note that, between the two of them, they have access to all wizard/sorcerer spells - the only school of magic that niether one of them took as a prohbited school is illusion and divination.)
In fact, that's why I mentioned them. In a campaign, the two characters would be extremely effective based on their working together.
Those items are not good enough. And you can't put a spell in a wand and expect to be good every time (there are great spells that require caster level to work or a higher DC). Spending ranks on UMD can work sometimes, but you can see results at mid to high levels. After all charisma is a dump stat and your priority isn't boosting UMD rolls.
Just for comparison, what spells do you consider extremely beneficial?
They don't have to be useful every time - just when they need to be. Most of those spells that require caster level and a high DC are evocations, enchantments, illusions, and abjurations.
Of course spending ranks in UMD can work - that's why I mentioned it as a viable option. If you want to make it a viable option at an earlier level - don't dump charisma.
I'm not sure why you need to know what spells I consider 'extremely beneficial' - i mean, beneficial spells depend far more on circumstance than anything else. In combat, I would say 'combat viable spells.'
Gnome
Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 10/ Shadowcraft mage 5/ Shadow Crafter 2
banned: Evocation, Enchantment, & conjuration
Gnome
Warmage 10/ Rainbow Servant 10
but usually i prefer to have more options.... id do this:
Dragonborn Human
Warmage 1/ Psion 8/ Cerebremancer 10/ Sandshaper 1
and
Dragonborn Gnome
Beguiler 1/ Ardent 3/ Cerebremancer 10/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Sandshaper 1
:D
Gnome
Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 10/ Shadowcraft mage 5/ Shadow Crafter 2
banned: Evocation, Enchantment, & conjuration
This + forest gnome druid 20.
I remember that too - it was there "the Word" and "the Wish" were made, right?
So I'm not the only one who keeps remembering that particular entry when I see this thread. Pity that thread is no longer around (well unless you use Google to search anyways).
Anyways I suppose I ought to go ahead and offer some suggestions just to keep my post mildly on topic...
Paired dual casters (I'm AFB right now so this won't be detailed) with one using a combination of Ur-Priest/RKV, and the other using Beholder Mage/(Insert whatever the dual progression advancement psionics class is here)
Yes I know I'm lazy for not working it out more fully (or at least posting the rest of the classes) but meh.
Character 2 - Conjurer (Or another cleric)
My choices are solid and I know they are regardless of your opinion.
They aren't terrible I guess, but it's a stretch to say they are solid (regardless of your opinion).
They aren't terrible I guess, but it's a stretch to say they are solid (regardless of your opinion).
Not really, but you have to keep in mind that this particular team was mentioned because they are an optimized pair or duo - not indiviudal working units.
If you or someone else would like me to explain why I chose this particular duo and explain my choices in their design further (which I think would allow this issue to remain on topic) then I'd be happy to write something like that up when I have the time (might be a bit challenging, but I'm sure I'll find the time).
If you wish to ask me any questions in regard to my spell school choices in terms of school vs. school power (like why I don't really mind barring conjuration and transmutation, as that was brought up earlier), then send me a private message and we can discuss it over PM.