Initiate is good, but not that good.
the best arcane prestige classes are IMO shadowcraft mage and incantatrix.
Initiate is good, but not that good.
QFT.
the best arcane prestige classes are IMO shadowcraft mage and incantatrix.
Initiate is good, but not that good.
I'd agree. You see, IotSFV is too much a one-trick pony.
Fighter: "What do you do again?"
Initiate: "Domias Metraschi Venthos!" (Forms a bubble of multiple colors)
Fighter: You're one of those wizards...
Now, the initiate hopes that he doesn't have to move. As I said before, the Incantatrix simply walks over, makes a spellcraft check and now he controls all of the wards. :D
People rarely make use of the concentration class features of incantatrix. I believe that they're powerful. And you can concentrate on multiple spells with little trouble (extraordinary concentration, sonorous hum, etc).
Incantatrix is very good for playing with metamagic, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is the defensive star, Ultimate Magus is a strong Hybrid PrC. Personally, I'm a big fan of Malconvokers for those free twinned/extended summoning spells.
However, all-round best? Archmage.
Completely customizable (pick your favorite abilities) with some fantastic gems to pick from. Not hard to qualify for, and no big expenses like Incantatrix.
Also - it's core, and non-setting specific, so it will be allowed in almost any campaign.
As far as I'm concerned - it depends on your situation:
Incantatrix is very good for playing with metamagic, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is the defensive star, Ultimate Magus is a strong Hybrid PrC. Personally, I'm a big fan of Malconvokers for those free twinned/extended summoning spells.
However, all-round best? Archmage.
Completely customizable (pick your favorite abilities) with some fantastic gems to pick from. Not hard to qualify for, and no big expenses like Incantatrix.
Also - it's core, and non-setting specific, so it will be allowed in almost any campaign.
That's a strong argument. I'm still looking at Shadowcraft Mage, but I think you may have a winner with Archmage.
And Anima Mage... gee, every item creation feat whenever I need it? Yes please. Three free metamagics per day? Why helo thar, Persistant Spell. Seriously, so much raw power there.
JaronK
That's a strong argument. I'm still looking at Shadowcraft Mage, but I think you may have a winner with Archmage.
Or not.
If im not mistaken, for the archmage you have to sacrifice a lot of skills.
While with shadowcraft, even if it is specialized (illusion), you can even overcome the "sacrifice 2 schools rule" (by mimiking those spell) , and still have lot of skills as well.
If you start at level 1, it's kinda painful. If you start at level 10, that's where shadocraft mage begins to work his stuff.
AND, while keeping all the wizards spell knowledge, it works kinda like a sorcerer when talking about Conjuration (summoning and evocations only) and evocation (full school).
So, by starting at level 10, you have to sacrifice AT WORST only one school (if you choose evocation and Conjuration, it's only half a school).
Not bad i'd say, considering that with the right feats you can basically ignore enemy SR :D
If you wanna REALLY get down whit an exagerate PP arcanist, here is a compendium for Shadowcraft mage:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556
Very funny build to play and you can pretty much ALWAYS do something despite of the situation. And do it GOOD.
Think of it this way. First, cast Freezing Fog. Then use Metamagic Effect to put Fell Drain on it. That's probably one of the most frightening death traps you'll ever come across, all for a 6th-level spell and an ability with an absurd number of uses per day.
When the Cleric wants Persistent Buffs, you can provide for far cheaper than Nightsticks. Persistent Mass Vigor, Persistent Bless, Persistent Divine Favor, Persistent Divine Power, Persistent Righteous Might... That'd probably be about half your daily uses of your Cooperative Metamagic ability.
Archmage
Pros - Overall flexibility. Powerful options. Customizable.
Cons - Decreased skill selection.
Incantatrix
Pros - Vastly increased metamagic power. Wide array of options.
Cons - Metamagic focused. Wasted feat requirement (Iron Will). Requires an additional prohibited school. Setting specific (FR)
Shadowcraft Mage
Pros - Wide array of powerful abilities. Excellent Feat Synergy. Increased skill points.
Cons - Illusion focused. Low customizability. 7th level entry requirement. Race requirement.
Anima Mage
Pros: Many powerful inherent abilities. Item creation feats. Metamagic powers. Easy entry requirements.
Cons: Alignment restrictions. Loss of a caster level (major).
Anima Mage
For Anima Mage I don't have anything because I don't have sourcebook nearby. Any suggestions for pros and cons?
Pros: Persistant Shapechange! Also, two other Persistant spells per day. Free access to all item creation feats. Once/day cast spell as an immediate action. Can get 11th level binder abilities (Can bind 6th level vestiges, IIRC). Summon Monster V once per 5 rounds with 11 round duration with the right vestige. Many other fun goodies. Very easy entry (Binder 1/Wizard 3 with Improved Binding and any metamagic gets you in).
Cons: Lose one caster level. Alignment restriction.
JaronK
Pros: Persistant Shapechange! Also, two other Persistant spells per day. Free access to all item creation feats. Once/day cast spell as an immediate action. Can get 11th level binder abilities (Can bind 6th level vestiges, IIRC). Summon Monster V once per 5 rounds with 11 round duration with the right vestige. Many other fun goodies. Very easy entry (Binder 1/Wizard 3 with Improved Binding and any metamagic gets you in).
Cons: Lose one caster level. Alignment restriction.
JaronK
FIXED!
In the running so far we have:
Incantatrix
Pros - Increased metamagic power. Wide array of options.
Cons - Metamagic focused. Wasted feat requirement (Iron Will).
Add to Cons: Requires an additional prohibited school, setting specific (FR)
Archmage
Pros - Overall flexibility. Powerful options. Customizable.
Cons - Decreased skill selection.
This class is not nearly as good as anything as any other class mentioned. The thing about the specialization of the others is that they offer you far more versaitiliy than Archmage ever will.
Incantatrix
...
Cons - Metamagic focused. Wasted feat requirement (Iron Will).
Metamagic focus is not a con. Feel like Persisting all your spells? Go for it. And any feats you lose you make back with its bonus feats.
Shadowcraft MageCons - Illusion focused.
Wrong. The entire point of it is to emulate non-illusion spells.
Low customizability.
Wrong. If you enter with Wizard, take two feats and an alternate class feature, you will essentially be able to cast spontaneously:
--Any Conjuration spell in the game
--Any Evocation spell in the game
--Any Divination spell in the game
--Any Illusion (Glamer) spell in the game
7th level entry requirement. Race requirement.
QQ more. You have to be one of the best races in the game (whisper gnome) and wait two levels for essentially the best PrC ever.
Anima Mage
For Anima Mage I don't have anything because I don't have sourcebook nearby. Any suggestions for pros and cons?
Pros: Absurdly early entry, 3/day free metamagic, 1/day cast as an immediate action, dual casting with Binder
Cons: Lose a level of casting, limited uses compared to Incantatrix, nongood (may not fly with some DMs)
I seem to remember something about ScM being able to cast Miracle as a very low level spell, however.
For example a warmage (or beguiler or dread necro) with the arcane disciple feat benefits greatly from the Spell Like Ability high arcana. Normally you can only cast a spell from arcane disciple once a day but with the SLA high arcana you can assign one of your arcane disciple spells to the SLA and be able to cast the arcane disciple spell 2, 4, or 6 more times a day depending on the spell slot you use to power the SLA high arcana.
Add to Cons: Requires an additional prohibited school, setting specific (FR)
FIXED!
Do you have to be a specialized Illusionist for your build archer? I'm working on a Wizard 5/Incantatar 10/XX 5 in my current campaign and, I can't decide what to put for the last five levels. My first thought was Archmage (honestly, just for the title). I've never really looked into the SCM at all...right now I'm a Generalist Wizard (Elf racial sub)...
No, but you do have to be a gnome. ;)
Incantatrix combined with SCM is the clear wizard. Add in spontaneous divination for more epic win. IMHO, there is not stronger 20th level arcane build than Illusionist 5/ Incantatrix 10/ SCM 5
I'll see that and raise you a Binder 1/Illusionist 3/Anima Mage 10/SCM 5.
You're a melee powerhouse in addition to your insane casting abilities. And who can say no to limitless item creation!
But of course, this is so far off the charts for raw power that it's a little silly to even compare.
JaronK
+1 for Incantatrix. I haven't heard much of ScM or Anima Mage, but I know compared to Archmage it comes out better. This is at least partially because the greater depth of stuff you get from Incantatrix: as a 10-level PrC, it has room to offer more then the 5-level Archmage. Also, a lot of the Incantatrix just seem plain better then the options you can get through High Arcana. Also, add another con to Archmage: very late entry. I believe the skill/casting reqs for it make it impossible to take before level 13ish. That alone crosses it off the list for me; if I'm going for a PrC I want something I can take relatively early on. (Incidentally this is another strike against I7; It can't be taken til the 10th level range)
Incantatrix and shadowcraft mage are prestige classes that you rush to get into, when archmage comes late. Also it requires crappy feats. Finally the cheese level compared to those other two is relatively low.
I think it's more of a filler class.
Archmage
Pros - Overall flexibility. Powerful options. Customizable.
Cons - Decreased skill selection.
Con- cannot be entered until level 14. Decreased Skill Selection isn't really a Con, because Wizards get high ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft anyway.
Incantatrix
Pros - Increased metamagic power. Wide array of options.
Cons - Metamagic focused. Wasted feat requirement (Iron Will). Requires an additional prohibited school. Setting specific (FR)
Increased Metamagic Power should say Metamagic GOD. Incantatrix gives more bonus feats than any other 10-level full casting class as well, and there are plenty of easy schools to drop (Enchantment can be totally forgettable past level 6, Evocation can be emulated through Illusion spells, and Necromancy can be emulated through Fell Animate and Fell Drain). There really should be more emphasis placed on the Pros than the Cons.
Shadowcraft Mage
Pros - Wide array of powerful abilities. Increased skill points.
Cons - Illusion focused. Low customizability. 7th level entry requirement. Race requirement.
Race requirement? 7th-level entry? Hell, I'd go with Whisper Gnome Focused Illusionist 3/Master Illusionist 4 to enter anyway.
Anima Mage
Pros: Many powerful inherent abilities. Item creation feats. Metamagic powers. Easy entry requirements.
Cons: Alignment restrictions. Loss of a caster level (major).
Anima Mage's metamagic powers pale in comparison to Incantatrix's. The Item Creation feats are great for versatility, but the lost caster level is not only a heavy hit, it hits early. You also have to waste a feat on Improved Binding to get in without more lost levels as well.
Magelord :P love that class.
Oh, i almost forgot.
Magelord :P love that class.
A playable Magelord is what I wanted the Ultimate Magus to be.
Con- cannot be entered until level 14. Decreased Skill Selection isn't really a Con, because Wizards get high ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft anyway.
Additionally, it requires 2 mediocre feats and the powers just Aren't That Good. Maybe if we were talking about a core only game, but we're not.
Frankly, I don't think it deserves to be on the list
Incantatrix
Increased Metamagic Power should say Metamagic GOD. Incantatrix gives more bonus feats than any other 10-level full casting class as well, and there are plenty of easy schools to drop (Enchantment can be totally forgettable past level 6, Evocation can be emulated through Illusion spells, and Necromancy can be emulated through Fell Animate and Fell Drain). There really should be more emphasis placed on the Pros than the Cons.
I agree that the pros should be given heavier weight than they appear to get.
Incantatrix gets so much good stuff it isn't even funny.
ShadowCraft Mage
Like the others, I agree with it's awesomeness. The incredible feat synergy is also worth note. Residual Magic? Arcane Thesis? ...
Anima Mage
Anima Mage's metamagic powers pale in comparison to Incantatrix's. The Item Creation feats are great for versatility, but the lost caster level is not only a heavy hit, it hits early. You also have to waste a feat on Improved Binding to get in without more lost levels as well.
I think you under rate it (assuming we are using the web enhancements).
You get almost all Item Creation Feats, telepathy and mindsight, outsider type, free summons all day, etc. Also, you get the ability to apply persistent metamagic goodness earlier.
Yes, it is less powerful than incantatrix, but has a wider range of perks / more flexible.
Best,
David
P.S. Honorable Mention: Hathran
Pros Easy as pie requirements, 2 skills you should have allready, cant be a generalist. At worst its a free feat and a free spell known.
Cons Takes a while to get to the great stuff.
Incantatrix
I agree that the pros should be given heavier weight than they appear to get.
Incantatrix gets so much good stuff it isn't even funny.
Fixed!
Anima Mage
I think you under rate it (assuming we are using the web enhancements).
You get almost all Item Creation Feats, telepathy and mindsight, outsider type, free summons all day, etc. Also, you get the ability to apply persistent metamagic goodness earlier.
Yes, it is less powerful than incantatrix, but has a wider range of perks / more flexible.
As an Anima Mage, you are a significantly less powerful spellcaster than you otherwise would be 50% of the time. The nifty tricks you get from some soul binding are nice, but don't seriously kick in until later in the game.
Before you think you know what it does, go read the Shadowcraft Mage handbook.
Using the definition in the OP, the Shadowcraft Mage wins, hands down.
+1
I think Dweomerkeeper is fun too (free wishes), although since you need a level of a divine casting class, it probably does not belong here.
Oh, and SCM being a spontaneous spellcaster is not that great... wizards have been spontaneously casting their highest (and next-highest) level spells all since Exemplars of Evil was released.
Shadowcraft Mage wins for me, but a big part of that is the fact it combines so beautifully with many of the other big contenders, so the whole notion of picking one best PrC is rather flawed, but if forced to pick:
1. Shadowcraft Mage
2. Incantatrix
With honourable mentions for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (which is held back by its sucktastic prerequisites and comparative lack of diversity), as well as Anima Mage, Dweomerkeeper and War Weaver (all of which are held back by the fact they all entail at least 1 lost CL).
Another nice thing about the Archmage is that it's only a 5 level PrC, meaning that you could easily fit in another 10 level PrC, like wizard5/master specialist10/archmage5
That L10 Abjuration Master Specialist ability is wicked in high level play. AMF on the Power Attacking Barbarian against any Su / Sp heavy monster? Yes, please!
Do you have to be a specialized Illusionist for your build archer? I'm working on a Wizard 5/Incantatar 10/XX 5 in my current campaign and, I can't decide what to put for the last five levels. My first thought was Archmage (honestly, just for the title). I've never really looked into the SCM at all...right now I'm a Generalist Wizard (Elf racial sub)...
Either that or a generalist. The gnome illusionist sub levels are pretty darn hawt (emulating miracle from a cantrip just has style).
Actually, I'll amend that - if DM's allow all levels of cheese - the discussion is irrelevant as Pun Pun finds PrC's to be redundant - he has all their abilities anyways.
My DM does not allow heighten spell to be used with Shadowcraft Mage just as he does not allow Spontaneous Divination to be the qualifier for Ultimate Magus for a pure wizard.
Without heighten spell tricks - shadowcraft mage is still solid - but not nearly as good as some other PrC's.
I can't believe people are suggesting archmage ... the cheese level compared to those other two is relatively low.
True.
However I don't have the books for either of the other two. Granted AC is mainly for Gishes but that doesn't mean that's all it can do and could mesh well as the last five levels of a shadowcaster mage or incantatrix.
Actually, given that a DM will allow all levels of cheese - Shadowcraft mage exploiting heighten spell is the cheesiest.
Meh, as long as you don't go above the spell level you can normally cast, I don't see what the problem is. That's basically what the PrC is supposed to do. Just SCM + Earth Spell lets you spontaneously cast up to your normal spell level. It certainly isn't as cheesy as a Dweomerkeeper's free wishes, or anything like that (which I notice hasn't been mentioned here).
Why L3rker? I agree the incantrix and Shadowcraft are probably better, but even a level 10 wizard will benefit from levels in Abjurant Champion.
However I don't have the books for either of the other two. Granted AC is mainly for Gishes but that doesn't mean that's all it can do and could mesh well as the last five levels of a shadowcaster mage or incantatrix.
The entry into AC requires a worthless feat (combat casting) and a way to get a martial weapon prof. The cost/benefit trade-off ratio just isn't that great when compared to the other godly PrCs being talked about here.
The entry into AC requires a worthless feat (combat casting) and a way to get a martial weapon prof. The cost/benefit trade-off ratio just isn't that great when compared to the other godly PrCs being talked about here.
The entry into archmage requires three more or less worthless feats :P That doesn't mean that archmage is worthless though. Abjurant Champion's 3rd level class feature (the one that lets you quicken abjurations) is a gem.
The entry into archmage requires three more or less worthless feats :P That doesn't mean that archmage is worthless though. Abjurant Champion's 3rd level class feature (the one that lets you quicken abjurations) is a gem.
I don't deny that the AC class feature isn't good, but we're talking about which is the most powerful arcane PrCs here. Heck, even archmage is slowly being voted off the list.
Meh, as long as you don't go above the spell level you can normally cast, I don't see what the problem is. That's basically what the PrC is supposed to do. Just SCM + Earth Spell lets you spontaneously cast up to your normal spell level. It certainly isn't as cheesy as a Dweomerkeeper's free wishes, or anything like that (which I notice hasn't been mentioned here).
I find it very hard to believe that Shadowcraft mage's Shadow Illusion ability uses the following spells: Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, Persistant Image and Programmed image - yet the designers intended for you to use heightened spell to make Silent Image whatever level spell you want and get rid of that pesky "one level below" restriction...
I've often thought that the designers should employ an optimizer to look at these things before they're published and say, "um - how about some kind of restriction on using heightened spell to modify the level?"
Then the DM doesn't have to be the bad guy all the time.
Now Incantatrix I will agree uses no tricks - it's power is all RAI.
I don't have the book where this class is mentioned but just by reading the posts in this thread and searching the web, with this class : you can take control of an Iot7FV's veils, you can steal control of elemental monolith's from clerics, you can "own" and then dismiss a druid's buffs, you can persist shapechange on yourself.
The only competition for this class is Dweomer Keeper.
Of course, Incantatrix is not the only "win, period" class in the PGtF. Hathran: what does it require? Four ranks in Knowledge: Local, and... Leadership. You are required to take leadership for this class. The most powerful feat in D&D, probably indisputedly. And it gives you a bonus to your leadership score. Plus, it lets you cast any spell known spontaneously (assuming you enter as a wizard, cleric, or druid, and if you don't then you're just silly.) And it pretty much bumps your caster level up to 40. Assuming a capped leadership score and an ethran cohort, at level 20 you can have 28 spell levels of niftiness to play around with. That's a massive caster level boost plus some free heightening, maximizing and empowering. Then, for the heck of it, give your cohort/followers the Cooperative Spell metamagic feat. Magic Missile really hurts, coming from over a hundred casters at a time at a caster level few epic casters could hope to match.
Wait let me get this straight, you have a class :Incantatrix , that's basically a metamagic god.
You can persist, empower, heighten, etc.. spells all day long putting DMM to shame, you can steal other people's "concentration" spells, you can own their "ongoing" spells, it's a full caster PrC, and you get lot's of bonus feats. How in the heck can ANY PrC (let alone arcane ones) compete with that?
I don't have the book where this class is mentioned but just by reading the posts in this thread and searching the web, with this class : you can take control of an Iot7FV's veils, you can steal control of elemental monolith's from clerics, you can "own" and then dismiss a druid's buffs, you can persist shapechange on yourself.
The only competition for this class is Dweomer Keeper.
Things on these boards are often explained in absolutes. Personally - although I agree that overall an Incanatrix is more powerful than an IotSV - I doubt very highly that the high level Incantatrix would have any real chance against the IotSV's primary ability (kaleidoscopic doom) which turns self-buffers into dogfood.
Even if he did (he won't) - He would then attempt to take control of the Incantatrix's veil - only to find that he fails because the veil does not require ongoing controls of the IotSV's thus making it not applicable to snatch spell.
And the hemisphere and wall veils do limit the IotSV's manoeverability, of course, if he wants manouverability, he won't be using those - he'll be using the personal veils - which move with the IotSV.
Also - an Incantatrix cannot persist all day long. They can persist 2/day (In which case they cannot use that ability with any other metamagic). That's once they reach 7th level in the PrC. Once again, these little facts get "missed" by the posters when describing the PrC.
Nothing is as extreme as the posters on the boards would have you believe.
That said - Incantatrix is a very strong PrC - well worth giving up an additional school of magic.
In the end - there is no "best" PrC for wizards IMO. There are many VERY good PrCs - of which Incantatrix, Shadowcraft Mage - and all the rest mentioned in this thread (and more - I'm still surprised nobody mentioned Mage of the Arcane Order...) qualify as.
Also - an Incantatrix cannot persist all day long. They can persist 2/day (In which case they cannot use that ability with any other metamagic). That's once they reach 7th level in the PrC. Once again, these little facts get "missed" by the posters when describing the PrC.
Remember, Instant Metamagic isn't an incantatrix's only way of persisting spells. The Metamagic Effect ability, gained at level 3 and usable 3+Int mod times a day, can also be used to persist things (albeit only if you pass a high spellcraft check). And from second level an incantatrix has Cooperative Metamagic, which does the same thing for other people's spells, such as your party druid's Bite of the X spell. Instant Metamagic is the easiest tool in the incantatrix's arsenal to persist high-level spells, but they have others usable earlier and more often.
Remember, Instant Metamagic isn't an incantatrix's only way of persisting spells. The Metamagic Effect ability, gained at level 3 and usable 3+Int mod times a day, can also be used to persist things (albeit only if you pass a high spellcraft check). And from second level an incantatrix has Cooperative Metamagic, which does the same thing for other people's spells, such as your party druid's Bite of the X spell. Instant Metamagic is the easiest tool in the incantatrix's arsenal to persist high-level spells, but they have others usable earlier and more often.
The spellcraft checks are 18 + (3x modified spell level). So persisting - oh say, shield would require a 39 spellcraft roll. Persisting a 3rd level spell would require a 45 spellcraft roll - etc.
with Int mod +3 uses per day, you don't have a lot of room for failures either.
Cooperative metamagic uses the same mechanic - with the same limitation on uses.
However - you are correct - there are other ways he can persist. Just the other ways are limited. Instant metamagic is the way of persisting that is usually referenced in Incantatrix-love threads.
So how high is 39? Consider a 9th level wizard who has just gotten his 3rd level of incantatrix and wants to persist "all day long".
his Spellcraft rank? 12. His intellegence mod? Probably around +6. That's a total modifier of +18. Perhaps he's gained skill focus (Spellcraft) - thats a total of +20.
In order to persist a first level spell he needs to roll a 19. He's got 9 tries.
There of course are other ways to increase spellcraft - but these aren't easy routes to take.
There of course are other ways to increase spellcraft - but these aren't easy routes to take.
There are so many, however, that it's hard to avoid them all.
To persist a 9th-level spell as a 20th level character, you would be going for a Spellcraft DC of 60.
23 ranks + 12 Int + 2 Synergy (Know: Arcana) = +37
You can be a Spellscale with the Draconic Aura (Insight) feat:
23 ranks + 12 Int + 2 Synergy + 10 Io Meditation + 4 Insight Aura = +51, take 10.
You can have an Item Familiar:
23 ranks + 12 int + 2 Synergy + 23 Item Familiar = +60, auto-success
You can take 2 levels of Unseen Seer for Divine Insight (can even be cast spontaneously thanks to Spontaneous Divination):
23 ranks + 12 int + 2 synergy + 15 Divine Insight = +52, take 10
And all this assumes you don't just take the easy route and grab a +Competence item.
I agree that it would be significantly harder to persist spells at earlier levels, but thats exactly why you use one of your other dozen metamagic feats at those levels.
There are so many, however, that it's hard to avoid them all.
To persist a 9th-level spell as a 20th level character, you would be going for a Spellcraft DC of 60.
23 ranks + 12 Int + 2 Synergy (Know: Arcana) = +37
You can be a Spellscale with the Draconic Aura (Insight) feat:
23 ranks + 12 Int + 2 Synergy + 10 Io Meditation + 4 Insight Aura = +51, take 10.
You can have an Item Familiar:
23 ranks + 12 int + 2 Synergy + 23 Item Familiar = +60, auto-success
You can take 2 levels of Unseen Seer for Divine Insight (can even be cast spontaneously thanks to Spontaneous Divination):
23 ranks + 12 int + 2 synergy + 15 Divine Insight = +52, take 10
And all this assumes you don't just take the easy route and grab a +Competence item.
I agree that it would be significantly harder to persist spells at earlier levels, but thats exactly why you use one of your other dozen metamagic feats at those levels.
Your right! How silly of me! I thought your solutions were "more difficult routes" but you've just shown the boards the error of my ways.
Spellscales with the Draconic Aura (Insight) feat - why, every second mage is that!
And unseen seer - I definitely take multiple levels in PrC's that don't advance spellcasting - why that's a great choice! What mage doesn't want to do that?
Item familiar - yes - optional rules from Unearthed Arcana that take a feat and 3 skill/points per level of +1 bonus. (Though admittedly, this is what I was think of it).
Magic item - yep - you can boost the check with a magic item. Of course any magic item you get that improves spellcraft is a magic item that improves something else you did not get.
Finally - the most simple solution of all - just take 23 ranks of spellcraft at level 9. I thought 13 was the maximum - my mistake...
It can be done - as I said it could - but, your suggestion that "it is hard to avoid them" is utterly ridiculous.
Int 18(base) + 2(race) + 4(item/spell) + 2(levels) = 26 (+8 bonus)
Spellcraft: 12(ranks) + 8(Int) + 2(synergy) + 10(item) = +30 to checks.
And there are spells for +x to skill checks as luck or morale bonuses?
It only cost you 1k for the +spellcraft item or 17k for the item and the +int item...
And Treantmonk, he said at level 20. You really need to stop being so defensive and learn to read first before opening mouth...
And unseen seer - I definitely take multiple levels in PrC's that don't advance spellcasting - why that's a great choice! What mage doesn't want to do that?
Unseen Seer is full casting advancement. So yes, it is a great choice for an Incantatrix.
Magic item - yep - you can boost the check with a magic item. Of course any magic item you get that improves spellcraft is a magic item that improves something else you did not get.
And all those persisted spells is worth far more than whatever else you could spend the money on (Candles of Inocation being a possible exception).
Finally - the most simple solution of all - just take 23 ranks of spellcraft at level 9. I thought 13 was the maximum - my mistake...
X-Codes was talking about 20th level, as he stated in the 2nd line of his post. Admittedly, the DCs get comparatively easier as you go up in levels, but the checks are still entirely doable.
Not to mention other things he doesn't mention - e.g. a Marshal in the party with Motivate Int (only needs a 1 level dip) or Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles), or Sacred Exorcist and the Ancestral Whispers feat, etc
And Treantmonk, he said at level 20. You really need to stop being so defensive and learn to read first before opening mouth...
Clearly - the "There are so many, however, that it's hard to avoid them all." put me on the defensive before I got to the second sentence. :embarrass
I'll give a more thought out response this time.
Unseen Seer is full casting advancement. So yes, it is a great choice for an Incantatrix.
Really? I agree it is full progression (I was thinking useen hand) - however, it is no better a choice since you are still losing caster progression.
Look at the requirements for Unseen Seer - there's simply no way a straight wizard is going to qualify as a precurser to Incantatrix.
Add the loss of 3 skill points/level into an Item Focus and it's going to be hard even with multiclassing...
So explain how it's such a good choice.
X-Codes suggested a Spellscale, Unseen Seer, Item familiar (to +23)
So show me the above in a build that shows Incantatrix as the "best" PrC (so your final build should be superior to a whisper gnome Wiz 5/MotAO 10/Archmage 5 for example)
Otherwise - I stand by my post that the spellcraft bonuses are possible - but involve difficult routes.
Using Item Familiar alone invalidates this IMO anyways - we are talking about 3 skill points/level. This is probably HALF your skill points at lower levels - a +23 item familiar will LOOSE your character 69 skill points.
23 ranks + 12 int + 15 divine insight + take 10 = 60.
At lower levels UMD a wand of Improvisation to make up the remainder.
"I will concentrate very hard (i.e., use autohypnotism) to stabilise myself. My familiar will aid me."
What the-???
Uh - oh ... effigy masters!
Couldn't a familar give you another +2 to the check with the aid another action.
Not sure. The creature aiding another has to be capable of performing the action themselves. I did forget the masterwork tool though.
Assuming you're a wizard 5/incantatrix 3 with 20 int and maxed spellcraft ranks you have:
11 ranks + 5 int + 2 synergy + 3 aid another + 6 familiar + 2 aura + 2 circumstance == 31, 41 with take 10. That's free checks for spells with a modified level of ~7 (7,6 actually). Not counting custom magic items and huge intelligence modifiers of course.
Cheesy, but does the job.
Second tier choices seem to include:
Archmage - anyone can do, and with certain class choices easy to do
Master Specialist - truthfully really easy to get and worth it even as just a dip
Initiate of 7fold Veil - strong abjuration effects and prismatic effects always nice. Possibly under appreciated as those wards can be used offensively if careful
Mage of the Arcane Order - Extra metamagics, some spontaneous casting good stuff.
Abjurant Champion - little difficult getting but those quickened spells full BAB, and d10 HD never hurts.
War Weaver - the little I understand about this class means it can perform some neat tricks with single target spells.
I would offer in addition:
Sacred Exorcist - Not difficult and opens up DMM cheese.
Fatespinner - useful abilities, not hard to get to, nice dipper
Loremaster - some uselessness getting in but the identify ability, secrets, and lore are good.
Finally what is up with all these "most powerful" Questions lately? Come on people open your own books and find what works for you! If you need us to think it up for you, then you probably can't use it right anyways.
Really? I agree it is full progression (I was thinking useen hand) - however, it is no better a choice since you are still losing caster progression.
Look at the requirements for Unseen Seer - there's simply no way a straight wizard is going to qualify as a precurser to Incantatrix.
A level of Ruathar gets all the required skills as class skills. With a high Int, PHB2 skill retraining, and just buying some cross-class it can be done without losing a CL. Granted, you have to decide what order to take it all in, but it's entirely possible.
So Wizard 5 / Ruathar 1 / Incantatrix 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / Incantatrix +6 / Summat Else 2 would be full casting.
Besides which, as archer says, Spontaneous Divination may do the job.
Or failing all that, UMDing a CL 3 Divine Insight wand can get you an easy +8 bonus.
Add the loss of 3 skill points/level into an Item Focus and it's going to be hard even with multiclassing...
I wouldn't touch an Item Familiar personally, always struck me as appalling value for what it actually does.
Plus a lot of good Personal spells aren't necessarily the higehst level you can cast. You can Persist them with Metamagic Effect and use Instant Metamagic on a couple of higher level ones you want.
The endless item creation is not to be triffled with either, nor is the amazing binder flexibility.
JaronK
Stuff...
There are certainly ways to get that spellcraft high enough to cast persistant with metamagic effect or cooperative metamagic - I just think that they all are quite difficult and require lots of preplanning.
I expect most Incantatrix builds end up using Instant Metamagic for the Persistant effects, and more often end up using Metamagic effect/Cooperative for Chain, extend, or similar effects - which will have spellcraft rolls that are achievable for a more standard spellcraft score.
I don't want it to seem like I'm suggesting the Incantatrix is anything but a great option for wizards - it truly is, but when I read comments like, "Metamagic focus is not a con. Feel like Persisting all your spells? Go for it." I feel the need to point out that it is not quite as good as presented, in fact, there are other PrC's in the same league as far as excellent choices.
Originally posted by: Dictum Mortuum:The entry into archmage requires three more or less worthless feats That doesn't mean that archmage is worthless though
This seems like an overstatement to me. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is not that great I admit, but it is also extremely easy to pick up for free (1 level dip into Master Specialist). Spell Focus feats give a +1 DC to spells of one school. DC increases are not easy to get, and although I don't think spell focus is a great feat - I do think it is an OK feat.
I expect you agree or you would have made them RED in your guide.
IMO - these are 9 of the most powerful Arcane PrC's in the game (not an exhaustive list either):
Core
Archmage: (DMG):evillaugh Yes - this is "filler" for 5 of your last 6 levels (or less) - but it is FANTASTIC filler. If you are playing a specialist wizard - you likely are going to already have 2 of the 3 feats required - meaning one feat you wouldn't normally take (the spell focus in the non-specialized school). 3 levels will get you the best stuff - though it's viable for all 5.
Why it's great:
With one level - grant all your touch spells "Reach" metamagic for free. Yep - that qualifies spells that are not normally applicable for "Chain spell" metamagic to be used this way. Chain spell Greater Magic Weapon to enhance an entire party's weaponry for example. There is no limit on the uses of this ability.
With 2 levels - Don't cast enough 9th level spells? Use the SLA ability to add 2 more 9th level castings. Also - this is a great way to work around "Specialization" and "Focused specialization" restrictions so you can trade those 9th level conjuration specialization slots for Time stop!
With 3 levels - Hey - is Mastery of Shaping as good as it sounds? Answer is YES! Have an Antimagic Field effect every square but the one you are in, or have your Maw of Chaos effect every square except the ones with your party members. This is extraordinary spell aim on every spell for free!
And it's customizable - want mastery of shaping with the first level of Archmage? No problem.
Hint - give up "Specialization" slots to power the High Arcana abilities.
Archmage: (DMG):evillaugh Yes - this is "filler" for 5 of your last 6 levels (or less) - but it is FANTASTIC filler. If you are playing a specialist wizard - you likely are going to already have 2 of the 3 feats required - meaning one feat you wouldn't normally take (the spell focus in the non-specialized school). 3 levels will get you the best stuff - though it's viable for all 5.
Why it's great:
With one level - grant all your touch spells "Reach" metamagic for free. Yep - that qualifies spells that are not normally applicable for "Chain spell" metamagic to be used this way. Chain spell Greater Magic Weapon to enhance an entire party's weaponry for example. There is no limit on the uses of this ability.
With 2 levels - Don't cast enough 9th level spells? Use the SLA ability to add 2 more 9th level castings. Also - this is a great way to work around "Specialization" and "Focused specialization" restrictions so you can trade those 9th level conjuration specialization slots for Time stop!
With 3 levels - Hey - is Mastery of Shaping as good as it sounds? Answer is YES! Have an Antimagic Field effect every square but the one you are in, or have your Maw of Chaos effect every square except the ones with your party members. This is extraordinary spell aim on every spell for free!
And it's customizable - want mastery of shaping with the first level of Archmage? No problem.
Hint - give up "Specialization" slots to power the High Arcana abilities.
This seems like an overstatement to me. Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is not that great I admit, but it is also extremely easy to pick up for free (1 level dip into Master Specialist). Spell Focus feats give a +1 DC to spells of one school. DC increases are not easy to get, and although I don't think spell focus is a great feat - I do think it is an OK feat.
I expect you agree or you would have made them RED in your guide.
seriously, when was the last time you saw a wizard build taking spell focus and that wasn't a listed requirement for the build's prestige classes?
Why not take improved familiar, uncanny forethought, craft wondrous item, etc? There are lots of better feats than a static spell focus. You should know that a wizard can survive without forcing saving throws just fine.
//edit: spell focus isn't red, because it is often listed as a requirement (for feats and prestige classes). That makes it more useful, but it doesn't increase its actual power.
seriously, when was the last time you saw a wizard build taking spell focus and that wasn't a listed requirement for the build's prestige classes?
Why not take improved familiar, uncanny forethought, craft wondrous item, etc? There are lots of better feats than a static spell focus. You should know that a wizard can survive without forcing saving throws just fine.
Are you telling me that "There are better options out there", and "useless" are the same thing?
Also, is that spellcraft check for Incantatrix lowered by things that lower the cost of the metamagic feat you're applying?
Are you telling me that "There are better options out there", and "useless" are the same thing?
Where did you get that from? :S
Where did you get that from? :S
Ummm - from "The entry into archmage requires three more or less worthless feats..."
and then: "There are lots of better feats than a static spell focus..."
What am I missing?
Ummm - from "The entry into archmage requires three more or less worthless feats..."
and then: "There are lots of better feats than a static spell focus..."
What am I missing?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/better
1. Greater in excellence or higher in quality.
So apply that definition to
There are lots of better feats than a static spell focus
Also:
- Fact: Archmage requires three feats: spell focus x2 and skill focus.
- Fact: When you are optimizing characters and not fulfilling requirements, using better than average feats is a nice choice.
- Opinion: Spell focus is worthless.
- Opinion: Choosing one of those feats that are better than spell focus is optimized.
Also, is that spellcraft check for Incantatrix lowered by things that lower the cost of the metamagic feat you're applying?
Yes.
@TML20: I'm sorry, but none of those classes seem to me as good as making all of your duration spells better, no matter how many you cast in a day. Wild Shape gets replaced by Persistent Shapechange; IotSfV's defensive spheres can be stolen from an IotSfV if you really need them and have limited uses per-day. Archmage is nice (and a good way to cap out a build), but Incantatrix is better. Sacred Exorcist is also a great dip, but just flat out isn't as strong.
Master Specialist is filler -- good filler, but still filler. Incantatrixes can get free Twin and Extend on summons, too -- and Maximize, which can lead to all kinds of abuse depending on your interpretation. (There's a good case to be made that you'd treat all of your creature's d20 rolls as 20... but even if you don't want to go that far, there's still HP. Also getting swarms of lower-level list monsters.) And Repeat. And pretty much anything else you want. Abjurant Champion is a great gish class, and is a decent way for an abjuration specialist to finish off an Incantatrix build, but Incantatrix again flat-out overpowers it.
Mage of the Arcane Order is nice... if you really want to spend twice as long casting all your spells. Between Alacritous Cogitation, Uncanny Forethought, Spontaneous Divination, Proteus, and the Shadow X spells, Wizards are fine on spontaneous casting options... most of which don't take extra actions. There are also magic items for that kind of thing.
There's something that in my mind takes away a great deal of credibility from your list, which is that Shadowcraft Mage isn't on it. This class is one of the flat-out most powerful ever, and it's hard to find a wizard build that's better than Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcrafter 5.
Didn't LogicNinja state a while back that he wouldn't touch SCM due to the power level?
Seriously the abilyty to cast spell without components it is just too powerful.
And they have other abilities that help them.
I think that the most powerful is the dweormerkeeper.
Seriously the abilyty to cast spell without components it is just too powerful.
And they have other abilities that help them.
Without abusing loops that every wizard can do? What class abilities? A weaker version of Incantatrix's capstone? A weaker version of uncanny forethought?
Please, powerful != broken.
I'm of the belief that there is no wizard build that touches illusionist 5/ Incantatrix 10/ SCM 5.
Didn't LogicNinja state a while back that he wouldn't touch SCM due to the power level?
Nah, SCMs are fine unless you pull Miracle cheese.
It's Incantatrix which I won't use anymore.
Nah, SCMs are fine unless you pull Miracle cheese.
It's Incantatrix which I won't use anymore.
That explains it. They must be drugging my food.
Yes.
@TML20: I'm sorry, but none of those classes seem to me as good as making all of your duration spells better, no matter how many you cast in a day. .
Yeah - I agree that Malconvoker rocks - oh wait, you're talking about something else
Wild Shape gets replaced by Persistent Shapechange;
No - not remotely. Go check out the Druid Handbook - those Druid lovers are all drooling overTHIS. Persistant shapechange (despite requiring 9th level spell casting ability) just doesn't qualify.
Shapechange is broken for entirely different reasons (though just as broken - or moreso).
Finally, suggesting that an ability you would get at level 12 is somehow invalidated because another build could get something just as good at level 17 is just silly. That's like saying Polymorph isn't a good spell because Shapechange is better. Just because a second ability gained at a higher level is better than a first ability gained at a lower level, it doesn't mean the first ability isn't good.
And casting shapechange uses one of your 9th level slots, and the Incantatrix gets limited free metamagics/day, and blah blah blah
All those threads that suggest Druids are the bestest class ever will constantly refer to Natural Spell - and I admit its pretty rockin'
IotSfV's defensive spheres can be stolen from an IotSfV if you really need them and have limited uses per-day.
You keep saying this - I keep saying you can't because they veils aren't controlled or concentrated on. What gives?
Archmage is nice (and a good way to cap out a build), but Incantatrix is better.
Better abilities - higher cost. I think your conclusion is debatable, especially since you apparently think that an Incantatrix can take control of spells that don't fit the requirements listed under the class ability.
Sacred Exorcist is also a great dip, but just flat out isn't as strong...Master Specialist is filler -- good filler, but still filler...
You did the divination guide - so you already know that :evillaugh beats
So what point are you trying to make?Incantatrixes can get free Twin and Extend on summons, too -- and Maximize, which can lead to all kinds of abuse depending on your interpretation.
On how many summoning spells per day? (before you answer - the answer is 2x - Metamagic effect doesn't count since you could just use that action to Summon again)
My Malconvoker can cast summoning all day long, and they're all twinned and extended.
In addition - My malconvoker can potentially double twin, since the first effect is not technically a twin spell but merely copies the effect.
Hmmm...Now I'm wondering about Wiz 5/Malc 5/Incantatrix 10....Double twinned, extended summoning...
(There's a good case to be made that you'd treat all of your creature's d20 rolls as 20... but even if you don't want to go that far, there's still HP. Also getting swarms of lower-level list monsters.) And Repeat. And pretty much anything else you want.
Instant metamagic 2/day - You twin, Maximize - whoops you're out.
Use the next round to metamagic effect for repeat? Guess what - the malconvoker just summoned up another twinned, extended summoning while you were doing that.
Etc, etc.
(Your maximize arguement is definitely compelling - though I've generally found maximize on summoning is interpreted as number of creatures summoned since HP, and damage are usually considered random features of the creature summoned - not the spell)
Abjurant Champion is a great gish class, and is a decent way for an abjuration specialist to finish off an Incantatrix build, but Incantatrix again flat-out overpowers it.
The way you seem to suggest that the Incantatrix gets unlimited metamagic (you're wrong) - I can understand that view.
Abjurant Champion gets unlimited quicken on abjuration spells of levels 1-3 - that's limited only by number of castings, unlike the imaginary unlimited metamagic of the Incantatrix you keep pretending exists.
Mage of the Arcane Order is nice... if you really want to spend twice as long casting all your spells.
Do you count that hour memorizing spells as part of the casting time? The MotAO basically reduces the 15 minute time to memorize one spell to 1 round - and lets that spell be any spell - even if it's not in your spellbook - and once again, specialists can abuse this by RAW by giving up their specialization slot as their "open" slot to cast a non-specialized spell.
Think of it this way - Mage of the Arcane Order automatically gets an indestructable, weightless spellbook with every wizard spell known in the game world on its near infinite pages that takes 1/300th as long to use as a regular spellbook for memorizing spells as a class feature.
There's something that in my mind takes away a great deal of credibility from your list, which is that Shadowcraft Mage isn't on it. This class is one of the flat-out most powerful ever, and it's hard to find a wizard build that's better than Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcrafter 5
Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft Mage are 2 seperate PrC's.
I guess my post lost credibility since you didn't read it :
Originally Posted by ME:
This list is far from exhaustive, and specifically avoids PrC's which I have limited familiarity, but hopefully this shows why...
Without abusing loops that every wizard can do? What class abilities? A weaker version of Incantatrix's capstone? A weaker version of uncanny forethought?
Please, powerful != broken.
Huh?
Maybe i got it wrong since english is not my native tongue but doesn't this class ability let you cast some spell per day wihout components including material and xp?
So couldn't you use this to cast spells that otherwise you weren't likely so?
Did i got something wrong?
Huh?
Maybe i got it wrong since english is not my native tongue but doesn't this class ability let you cast some spell per day wihout components including material and xp?
So couldn't you use this to cast spells that otherwise you weren't likely so?
Did i got something wrong?
Or you can planar binding (1400 gp) to have a Planetar cast said spells for you (It can have wish as a domain spell) or gate (1k xp) in a solar that gates in even more solars.
Point accepted.But still it is another thing to cast these spell yourself beacause you decide the effects and another to endanger it by having another creature to do it for you.
And slightly off topic but i think that a planetar couldn't have wish as a domain spell, i mean i can't see how an Angel would have the greed domain.
Oh.Ok.I thought you said that its abilities didn't work this way.
Point accepted.But still it is another thing to cast these spell yourself beacause you decide the effects and another to endanger it by having another creature to do it for you.
And slightly off topic but i think that a planetar couldn't have wish as a domain spell, i mean i can't see how an Angel would have the greed domain.
Gate isn't problematic. Planer Binding could though.
Offtopic: Envy, but yeah.
Yeah - I agree that Malconvoker rocks - oh wait, you're talking about something else
I'm sorry, I thought I said ALL my spells, not my Conjuration (Calling or summoning) spells.
No - not remotely. Go check out the Druid Handbook - those Druid lovers are all drooling overTHIS. Persistant shapechange (despite requiring 9th level spell casting ability) just doesn't qualify.
You wanna know a secret? You can still cast while shapechanged, so far as I can tell.
Finally, suggesting that an ability you would get at level 12 is somehow invalidated because another build could get something just as good at level 17 is just silly. That's like saying Polymorph isn't a good spell because Shapechange is better. Just because a second ability gained at a higher level is better than a first ability gained at a lower level, it doesn't mean the first ability isn't good.
Okay. Draconic Polymorph is better than Wild Shape. Happy?
and the Incantatrix gets limited free metamagics/day
Because INT isn't hard to boost. Also because Metamagic Spell Trigger with no "maximum you could cast" or "ninth level" limits TOTALLY isn't an Incantatrix class ability.
You keep saying this - I keep saying you can't because they veils aren't controlled or concentrated on. What gives?
I hate to tell you, but I'm pretty sure the IotSfV controls that spell effect.
Better abilities - higher cost.
I disagree. (In that the abilities are better.) But they're dissimilar enough that it's a matter of opinion... and it seems that by voting majority, the opinion is with me here.
You did the divination guide - so you already know that :evillaugh beats
Categorically going through the list.
On how many summoning spells per day?
Let me flip that around: how many times can a Malconvoker do it on a non-summoning spell?
Hmmm...Now I'm wondering about Wiz 5/Malc 5/Incantatrix 10....Double twinned, extended summoning...
While I beleive in Itx 10/ScM 5, this is definitely worth exploring.
Use the next round to metamagic effect for repeat? Guess what - the malconvoker just summoned up another twinned, extended summoning while you were doing that.
In a direct battle, I would drop a Maw of Chaos on your area and then Maximize it. Or just SoD you.
(Your maximize arguement is definitely compelling - though I've generally found maximize on summoning is interpreted as number of creatures summoned since HP, and damage are usually considered random features of the creature summoned - not the spell)
Interesting thought. But then what you could do is power up the Itx 10/ScM 5 build even more and say that since Shadow Conjuration summons ARE a direct function of the spell, it works for them.
Abjurant Champion gets unlimited quicken on abjuration spells of levels 1-3 - that's limited only by number of castings, unlike the imaginary unlimited metamagic of the Incantatrix you keep pretending exists.
METAMAGIC.
SPELL.
TRIGGER.
Do you count that hour memorizing spells as part of the casting time? The MotAO basically reduces the 15 minute time to memorize one spell to 1 round - and lets that spell be any spell - even if it's not in your spellbook - and once again, specialists can abuse this by RAW by giving up their specialization slot as their "open" slot to cast a non-specialized spell.
Think of it this way - Mage of the Arcane Order automatically gets an indestructable, weightless spellbook with every wizard spell known in the game world on its near infinite pages that takes 1/300th as long to use as a regular spellbook for memorizing spells as a class feature.
That's really great, but Proteus, Spontaneous Divination, and Shades (let's use shades, because it's better and shorter to write) don't limit you to knowing the spell, being able to cast it normally (IE, you can cast banned school things) and has that same specialization slot advantage that you mentioned. So do Uncanny Forethought and Alacritous Cogitation, though they're indeed limited to spells you know.
Also: leaving slots empty takes just as much time. Annoying, but true.
Shadowcrafter and Shadowcraft Mage are 2 seperate PrC's.
I edited right after. I always, ALWAYS mix the names up, and it annoys the heck outta me.
And to be fair, I missed the hole in logic between you not including Races of spells in your guides and you being familiar with a Races of class. My mistake.
Gate isn't problematic. Planer Binding could though.
Offtopic: Envy, but yeah.
I always mix them up because in my language greed and envy means almost the same.But with gate don't you pay 1000 xp?
I know that it isn't much but with dwermeorkeeper you wouldn't pay anything nor gold or xp.
I always mix them up because in my language greed and envy means almost the same.But with gate don't you pay 1000 xp?
I know that it isn't much but with dwermeorkeeper you wouldn't pay anything nor gold or xp.
It's such a small cost for an infinite loop that supernatural spell isn't important. Dweomerkeeper is to gamebreaking as your left arm is to playing soccer. Nice to have, but by no means required to do it.
I'm sorry, I thought I said ALL my spells, not my Conjuration (Calling or summoning) spells.
Though reading your post what you actually mean is "All" your spells that you cast out of spell trigger items.
Your actual spells have the limits that I previously mentioned.
You wanna know a secret? You can still cast while shapechanged, so far as I can tell.
This polymorph guidewill guide you through some nice forms that you can and can't cast from.
General rule - if you can't talk - your verbal component is screwed, if you don't have hands - your somantic component is screwed. The Natural Spell feat specifically addresses these limitations and gives you an alternative.
Shapechange says it functions as polymorph and then lists some exceptions - ignoring verbal and somantic components while shapechanged isn't one of them (I just double-checked)
Okay. Draconic Polymorph is better than Wild Shape. Happy?
I agree - I also expect that Persistant Draconic Polymorph is superior to Wild Shape + Natural Spell.
I also expect that Apples taste better than Oranges. However, comparing them is difficult because they aren't really the same.
Because INT isn't hard to boost. Also because Metamagic Spell Trigger with no "maximum you could cast" or "ninth level" limits TOTALLY isn't an Incantatrix class ability.
Int is easy to boost - to some degree. Int mod + 3 times/day is still limited.
Metamagic Spell Trigger has to do with using Spell Trigger Items - and by using them, I mean using them up very very quickly. Mechanically the ability works like a metamagic wand grip (which I mentioned in the description) this is a 6,000 gp item from CM that mechanically works the same as the class feature you are lauding.
In the end - your just talking spending gold on magic items - spend a little more and other wizards can do basically the same thing (with metamagic wand grips). Lets talk about spellcasting.
I hate to tell you, but I'm pretty sure the IotSfV controls that spell effect.
Controlls what? They raise it - it's done, like a wall of fire (they can even make it a wall). Incantatrix description gives examples of the kind of spells that are controlled:
Excerpt from Players Guide to Faerun: Specifically - Incantatrix "steal spell" ability:
The effect must be one that does not rely on concentration but still rely's on or responds to the caster's control (such as a summon monster or spiritual hammer but not a wall of fire or acid fog)
So a Wall of Fire is no good (as specifically stated in the ability description) - but a veil is? Please explain...
I disagree. (In that the abilities are better.) But they're dissimilar enough that it's a matter of opinion... and it seems that by voting majority, the opinion is with me here.
Voting majority is clearly with the Incantatrix by my count too. It is definitely a top teir PrC - I'm just not sure it's a runaway. I also think you overstate its abilities - greatly.
Let me flip that around: how many times can a Malconvoker do it on a non-summoning spell?
2 less times than a 10th level Incantatrix. The same number of times as a 5th level Incantatrix (the point where the Malconvoker's abilities peak).
Unless of course you are counting Metamagic Spell Trigger - then he needs a Metamagic Wand Grip.
While I beleive in Itx 10/ScM 5, this is definitely worth exploring.
Again, I have no real experience with Shadowcraft Mages - since my DM's don't allow the "heighten spell" tricks.
I'm curious whether people think this PrC is still good without Heighten Spell...
In a direct battle, I would drop a Maw of Chaos on your area and then Maximize it. Or just SoD you.
Not sure how this became a direct battle.You were saying how an Incantatrix could summon better than a Malconvoker - I was explaining how you were incorrect.
Direct battle between them once 9th level spells are in the game is a matter of initiative and contingency spells - always has been, always will be. Adding or subtracting Incantatrix or Malconvoker doesn't make timestop any less effective.
Interesting thought. But then what you could do is power up the Itx 10/ScM 5 build even more and say that since Shadow Conjuration summons ARE a direct function of the spell, it works for them.
I doubt my DM would see it your way...
METAMAGIC.
SPELL.
TRIGGER.
METAMAGIC
WAND
GRIP
and the abjurant champion still gets unlimited quickens on his actual 1-3rd level abjuration spells.
That's really great, but Proteus, Spontaneous Divination, and Shades (let's use shades, because it's better and shorter to write) don't limit you to knowing the spell, being able to cast it normally
Shades is a single 9th level spell that gives you spontaneous casting of one school of spell levels 8 and lower. Mage of the Arcane order can give you a 9th level spell out of any school (that you don't have banned - we'll assume you have access to more than just conjuration) with that same slot. Oh yeah - and if that spell doesn't normally allow SR - it doesn't alter that like Shades does.
So do Uncanny Forethought and Alacritous Cogitation, though they're indeed limited to spells you know.
Yep - both decent options - but with the restriction you mention neither are as flexible as spellpool.
Also: leaving slots empty takes just as much time. Annoying, but true.
Depends how many you leave open - but yes - that is true.
I edited right after. I always, ALWAYS mix the names up, and it annoys the heck outta me.
No problem - I too need to edit my posts often.
And to be fair, I missed the hole in logic between you not including Races of spells in your guides and you being familiar with a Races of class. My mistake.
OK - I do have the PDF - but have never played a SCM (nor has anyone I play with) - so I really don't know how they play out.
Being that my DM's don't allow heightened spell tricks - I'm not sure how well they would play out without that.
Though reading your post what you actually mean is "All" your spells that you cast out of spell trigger items.
Your actual spells have the limits that I previously mentioned.
Still better than on just all my summoning spells.
General rule - if you can't talk - your verbal component is screwed, if you don't have hands - your somantic component is screwed. The Natural Spell feat specifically addresses these limitations and gives you an alternative.
Yup -- being able to turn into a limited list of forms that aren't nearly as good.
I agree - I also expect that Persistant Draconic Polymorph is superior to Wild Shape + Natural Spell.
I also expect that Apples taste better than Oranges. However, comparing them is difficult because they aren't really the same.
Oh? They're both shapechanging magic. Why are they so dissimilar?
Metamagic Spell Trigger has to do with using Spell Trigger Items - and by using them, I mean using them up very very quickly. Mechanically the ability works like a metamagic wand grip (which I mentioned in the description) this is a 6,000 gp item from CM that mechanically works the same as the class feature you are lauding.
In the end - your just talking spending gold on magic items - spend a little more and other wizards can do basically the same thing (with metamagic wand grips). Lets talk about spellcasting.
Actually, let's talk about metamagig wand grips for a moment. There are two things you've missed.
First of all, since you're so hung up on per-day uses I feel compelled to mention that they're 3/day only. Oh, you can get a bunch, true, but that might be more trouble than it's worth.
Second, and this is the important part, the grip works like the FEAT Metamagic Spell Trigger... which contains that oh-so-loved "Spell level above 9th" clause.
Also, about cost: You wrote the handbook. You know as well as I how little money matters to a Wizard.
Controlls what? They raise it - it's done, like a wall of fire (they can even make it a wall). Incantatrix description gives examples of the kind of spells that are controlled: So explain again how the veil can be controlled with this ability?
I was talking about the bubble ability, not the area or the wall. (TBH, I always forget the class can do area or wall; I've never seen it used any other way.)
2 less times than a 10th level Incantatrix. The same number of times as a 5th level Incantatrix (the point where the Malconvoker's abilities peak).
Metamagic Effect, not Instant Metamagic.
Use the next round to metamagic effect for repeat? Guess what - the malconvoker just summoned up another twinned, extended summoning while you were doing that.
I doubt my DM would see it your way...
*Shrug* It was a musing. It's not really pertinent to this; anyone can Maximize a spell. Incantatrixes can just do it a lot more easily and frequently.
METAMAGIC
WAND
GRIP
SEE.
ABOVE.
Shades is a single 9th level spell that gives you spontaneous casting of one school of spell levels 8 and lower. Mage of the Arcane order can give you a 9th level spell out of any school (that you don't have banned - we'll assume you have access to more than just conjuration) with that same slot. Oh yeah - and if that spell doesn't normally allow SR - it doesn't alter that like Shades does.
Well, this disregards several restrictions of the PrC. And while gaining SR resistance sucks, being able to ban Evocation and Conjuration and not losing any spells is nice. (Not that I'd do this.)
General rule - if you can't talk - your verbal component is screwed, if you don't have hands - your somantic component is screwed. The Natural Spell feat specifically addresses these limitations and gives you an alternative.
Shapechange says it functions as polymorph and then lists some exceptions - ignoring verbal and somantic components while shapechanged isn't one of them (I just double-checked)
So very, very wrong.
Not being able to talk just means you need use the silent spell feat for everything.
Not having hands has zilch to do with being able to cast spells. In fact the only part that comes into play in casting spells is that spells are assumed to have somatic components (if gestures) that are meant for hands with 4 fingers and an opposable thumb.
Why would a creature with no hands, say a Formian or a Celestial Charger learn, or create spells that they could not cast? Wouldn't they design spells with somatic components that can do? In fact isn't this exactly how the Celestial Charger MUST cast spells since it lacks hands and already has spells with somantic components as listed in the Monster Manual?
Oh? They're both shapechanging magic. Why are they so dissimilar?
Because Draconic Polymorph is more versatile, and Wild Shape with natural spell allows spellcasting in forms that would normally not allow spellcasting.
Draconic Polymorph is clearly better than wildshape (except duration - which is also trumped if the polymorph is persisted) - however - Natural spell is a completely different ability that Draconic Polymorph in no way duplicates.
Actually, let's talk about metamagig wand grips for a moment. There are two things you've missed.
First of all, since you're so hung up on per-day uses I feel compelled to mention that they're 3/day only. Oh, you can get a bunch, true, but that might be more trouble than it's worth.
I've placed emphisis on the telling part of your statement.
yes - more trouble than it's worth. So NOW we have a value of persisting 3 spell trigger items per day via the metamagic wand grip/spell trigger mechanics. Less than 6,000 gp. (or 6 times is worth less than 12,000gp etc)
Why is it worth less than 6,000gp? Simple - Spell Trigger items are already expensive - and the mechanics of adding metamagic to them makes them use far more charges per use.
So what's the value of using the same mechanic more than 3 times/day - well - in your words, "more trouble than it's worth"
I'm already cautious about buying spell trigger items - going through 7 charges per use...ugh!!!! (except, as I previously mentioned - for 1st level wands)
Second, and this is the important part, the grip works like the FEAT Metamagic Spell Trigger... which contains that oh-so-loved "Spell level above 9th" clause.
Persist is 6th level metamagic - using up 4th + level spell trigger items like water makes the expense of metamagic wand grips pale in comparison.
Also, about cost: You wrote the handbook. You know as well as I how little money matters to a Wizard.
Exactly. Of course, as I repeatedly say through my handbooks, I'm cheap. Class mechanics that rely on spending extra charges from spell trigger items don't blow me away at all.
I was talking about the bubble ability, not the area or the wall. (TBH, I always forget the class can do area or wall; I've never seen it used any other way.)
How does the bubble ability require control? Because it is centered on the Initiate? Hardly control as exampled in the ability - spiritual hammers and summoned monsters follow the commands of the caster. Just because a mage armor spell moves with you - hardly means you "control" it in the same sense as controlling summoning or spiritual hammers.
Metamagic Effect, not Instant Metamagic.
Already pointed out why Metamagic Effect doesn't work the way you brought up in your example (you need to use it after the spell has been cast, while a non-incantatrix would just be casting another spell instead). Since you never defeated the point, I'm assuming it still stands.
Well, this disregards several restrictions of the PrC. And while gaining SR resistance sucks, being able to ban Evocation and Conjuration and not losing any spells is nice. (Not that I'd do this.)
I'm not sure of which restrictions of the PrC I disregarded in my example.
As for the limitations of using Shadow Magic for spontaneous casting vs spellpool - we're comparing wildshape and draconic polymorph again - only now our positions are reversed.
Originally posted by Previn:
So very, very wrong...
Sigh...:surrender
The ORIGINAL druid handbooks lauds Natural spell as the best feat a Druid can take - it's been up for YEARS
Polymorph thread seperates casting vs non-casting forms - it too - been up a very long time.
Yet you wait until I bring up Natural Spell (For the first time I can remember) - and this is the moment you decide to come up with "Natural spell is redundant since you can cast freely without speaking or hands."
Sigh - and people will say I'm not jinxed...
I can't believe people are suggesting archmage :P
Incantatrix and shadowcraft mage are prestige classes that you rush to get into, when archmage comes late. Also it requires crappy feats. Finally the cheese level compared to those other two is relatively low.
I think it's more of a filler class.
Arcane Reach for Irresistible Dance is pretty Dirt Mcgirt.
Ultimate Magus has a potent free metamagic ability, while not quite as good as Metamagic Effect or Cooperative Metamagic, it's definitely better than just about everything else. You also get a dash of spontaneous in your prepared spellcasting and a very healthy CL bump. Throw in a couple bonus Metamagic feats to round out the class. The only problem is that you lose 2 (!) caster levels off your Prepared spellcasting, but wise metamagic picks and the Residual Magic feat can make up for it IMO.
Spellguard of Silverymoon also has a little metamagic ability of it's own, and adds a lot of versatility when using AoE and "Defensive" spells. If you don't want to break out an Incantatrix, IotSV, or Shadowcraft Mage for fear bloodied shins under the D&D table or flying splat books, you can still make a decently powerful character with this PrC.
Persist is 6th level metamagic - using up 4th + level spell trigger items like water makes the expense of metamagic wand grips pale in comparison.
It has nothing to do with expense. It has to do with switching the bloody things out.
Treant, you WROTE the Wizard guidebook. You should know better than anyone how little Wizards care about money.
Also, I just remembered: you can use MST with staves. You can't use a metamagic wandgrip with staves.
How does the bubble ability require control? Because it is centered on the Initiate? Hardly control as exampled in the ability - spiritual hammers and summoned monsters follow the commands of the caster. Just because a mage armor spell moves with you - hardly means you "control" it in the same sense as controlling summoning or spiritual hammers.
I'd let my incantatrix player steal an NPC's mage armor. But whatever.
Already pointed out why Metamagic Effect doesn't work the way you brought up in your example (you need to use it after the spell has been cast, while a non-incantatrix would just be casting another spell instead). Since you never defeated the point, I'm assuming it still stands.
To turn that around, you're using twice as many spells as I.
I'm not sure of which restrictions of the PrC I disregarded in my example.
Donating back to the spellpool, the RP restrictions on time, only being able to pick spells from the PHB unless the DM rules otherwise.
Oh, yeah, and the big one: you can only get spells per day equal to one-half caster level.
Another thing, Wards could technically be construed to be caster-responsive due to the fact that they are dismissable. However, that is definitely a gray area and would make Snatch Spell even more obscene then it already is.
Another note about Ultimate Magus, its lost to prepared caster levels can be passed to your spontaneous class through a certain trick involving Practiced Spellcaster.
Yes, and that makes it two lost caster levels. Actually, if you also tack on the Illumian's Krau sigil, you can get it down to one, but AFAIK thats the only way to get it down to one.
Also, just a little side thing from the discussion on Pgs 2 & 3: Item Familiars. There seems to be an unspoken consensus that you sacrifice 3 skillpoints to get a +1 bonus. Unless I've completely lost my mind, you don't. You "assign the skill points normally,<...>not that they now reside in the item familiar." The feat then goes on to explain that a loss of the familiar will result in the loss of the invested skill points, and describes a 7th level character buying skills. For every 3 points you house in the item (while assigning them normally), you gain a +1 unnamed bonus to add to a skill of your choice, up to the max ranks of any one skill.
So, back on topic, this is huge for an Incantatrix. Assuming a Human Wizard with 16 Int (just to lowball), you gain 6 skillpoints a level. Invest even half in the item, and you effectively gain +2 to your Spellcraft each level instead of +1 (+1 rank, +1 bonus). Add to that the bonus XP (item crafting/spells with XP costs? No problem), and the free spell slot (notice, the language for investing spell slots is the same as for skills. There's no mention of actually losing access to what you invest.), and you're getting a heck of a return for a single feat. Just make your familiar an adamantine Ring of Protection so it can't be easily taken or destroyed, and you're good to go.
Note: If I'm incorrect in judging the CO board stance on the Item Familiar and this is all old news, feel free to compress my post down to "+1 Incantatrix'
~FS
My ranking is nothing original:
1. Incantatrix - queen of offense
2. ScM - king of versatility
3. Io7V - king of defense
Somewhere below :
War Weaver
Anima Mage
...
Snatch Spell only ever mentions spells - how would it work on a SLA ?
Also, Instant Metamagic was errata-ed to not go over the max. spell level the Incantatrix can cast. Cooperative Metamagic & Metamagic Effect still rule though, not to mention Improved Metamagic.
It has nothing to do with expense. It has to do with switching the bloody things out.
Treant, you WROTE the Wizard guidebook. You should know better than anyone how little Wizards care about money.
I think you read someone elses handbook -
Originally from: Treantmonk's guide to wizards - Being a God
Here's the straight goods on wands - generally - they aren't great. You are stuck with a lousy caster level, they're charged, and if you want a decent level spell they are hideously expensive....
Staves are very powerful - they are also ridiculously expensive and charged. The more spells your staff has - the worse the deal is (since extra spells add to the value of a staff but not to the charges). Generally - I don't recommend staves unless it is a spell you cast very inconsistantly
Originally from: Focused Specialist is better than you think:
First Reality: Every time your wizard uses a Scroll, Wand or Staff - he's made himself less powerful forever.
No kidding. Now in perspective - casting a spell off a 1st level wand or scroll is almost non-existant in terms of cost - the higher the spell level - the greater the cost to you.
Where on earth did you get the idea I said in any of my guides that you should disregard the cost of spell trigger items???
Also, I just remembered: you can use MST with staves. You can't use a metamagic wandgrip with staves.
I included my opinion of staves above.
To turn that around, you're using twice as many spells as I.
Ah, yes, now THIS is a solid argument. OK - I'll give you this one - an Incantatrix can use twin/repeat on an existing spell in order to save castings. Actually, that's a pretty good use IMO.
Now we're actually making progress - Incantatrix can use his Metamagic Effect to save on castings by twinning/repeating (and I suppose chaining too) previously cast spells. That's going to add up to Int mod + 3 spells - that's quite a few.
Of course - you are still dealing with a high Spellcraft check - and unlike doing it when not in combat - you can't afford failure.
Donating back to the spellpool, the RP restrictions on time, only being able to pick spells from the PHB unless the DM rules otherwise.
Oh, yeah, and the big one: you can only get spells per day equal to one-half caster level.
I understand your arguement better now, I thought you were suggesting that my example somehow ignored PrC restrictions while you are just reminding me of them. Yes - there are some restrictions (though I'm not sure where you got the "restricted to PHB spells" restriction from).
Originally posted by Lur3r:
Another note about Ultimate Magus, its lost to prepared caster levels can be passed to your spontaneous class through a certain trick involving Practiced Spellcaster.
The 2 lost CL assumes using the trick. If you don't, you loose more.
Originally Posted by FractalSoul:
Also, just a little side thing from the discussion on Pgs 2 & 3: Item Familiars. There seems to be an unspoken consensus that you sacrifice 3 skillpoints to get a +1 bonus. Unless I've completely lost my mind, you don't.
I just reread it and I'm pretty sure you are correct...wow. Good call!
How does the bubble ability require control? Because it is centered on the Initiate? Hardly control as exampled in the ability - spiritual hammers and summoned monsters follow the commands of the caster. Just because a mage armor spell moves with you - hardly means you "control" it in the same sense as controlling summoning or spiritual hammers.
Sigh - and people will say I'm not jinxed...
Isn't the fact that the Veil can be dismissed by the Initiate is evidence enough that it follows his commands?
The description for Snatch Spell states that a magical effect must be one that "...still relies on or responds to the caster's control..."
Surely if you're dismissing an effect, that counts as it responding to your control?
I understand your point about it not relying on the Initiate's control, but that's only half the ability...
Because other class features aside, i have yet to see a prestige that grants you 4 metamagic feats, 1 epic feat (the capstone ability, there is an epic feat just like it IIRC) and a feat normally accessible to characters of 12+ level two levels earlier (metamagic spell trigger - appears in CM). And complete mage's version doesn't let you to increase the spell level more than 9.
Cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect are limited per day, yes, but persisting spells on your friends makes them last all day long. Hell, if spellcraft check is the problem, use long duration buffs and extend spell. Assuming an intelligence score of 18 at 8th level and that you can make the check of course (if that's a problem, assume a higher level), it's like having 14 free persistent spells. Compare it with DMM (Persistent) and how many nightsticks (and thus money) you are required to have for this to work - and that's only for yourself.
The fun doesn't stop here of course. You get to use other spellcasters' spells, too. And free metamagic 2/day. And all that for dropping evocation :P
I have yet to see a wizard that persists wraithstrike on the party's melee character, arrow mind on the party's ranged fighter, mass vigor, holds concentration of the druid's elemental monolith while he is wild shaped bashing things and STILL is able to cast spells (persistent sonorous hum) to help the party.
//edit: i don't think that snatch spell works on veils, either.
While I agree that Incantatrix may be the most powerful PrC, just wanted to throw this out there--when people talk about broken spellcasting, notice how the word "persist" is almost always used. I know I'm not the first to say this, but maybe it's not necessarily that a lot of the "broken" class features for various PrC's that we talk about here are the problem... Just saying.
Oh, and about the +10 or +30 spellcraft items--let's just say that some DM's can see that one coming, and won't let them in. Or it may be that I play with too many cheese-hating, crusty old* geezers, dunno.
*Using the definition of the 30-40 range as "old" here. Hey, it works in sports, right?
I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring for Anima Mage.
My opinion is that I feel that not enough weight is given to the early entry of the prc.
Depending on wheter or not you gain your feat first or have to choose a class first you may be able to enter this as early as 3rd Wis1/binder1/AM 10 using your 3rd level feat for improved binding before choosing a class.
Still thought personally I feel it gives you the most amount of win the fastest. Which important as many, many games dont' last.
You get to 10th and someones schedule changes or blah blah(life takes over)
Further Its still a great entry for the other two classes SCM and Trix.
AnimaMage has the least oppurtunity cost even at the cost of one spell level.
You also get to bind 2 vestiges of up to potentially 6th level (which is just ambiently excellent but don't take my word for it take a look at JWO&others Consolidated binder handbook about the binder stuff) and/or can add up to at least 12 spells each day of the highest level spell you can cast through exploit vestige...
Great for nova-ing or even having extra slots to toss more metamagic.
The problem is that not enough people have actually played Animamage to go nuts with it like that, and everyone been sold incatrix on the board for so long its pretty much just accepted. Not to say I'm some crackpot I KNOW ICX
Stout but AnM is stout and swift...
It's such a small cost for an infinite loop that supernatural spell isn't important. Dweomerkeeper is to gamebreaking as your left arm is to playing soccer. Nice to have, but by no means required to do it.
Tell that to Maradona.
Hmm...
I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring for Anima Mage.
My opinion is that I feel that not enough weight is given to the early entry of the prc.
Depending on wheter or not you gain your feat first or have to choose a class first you may be able to enter this as early as 3rd Wis1/binder1/AM 10 using your 3rd level feat for improved binding before choosing a class.
Still thought personally I feel it gives you the most amount of win the fastest. Which important as many, many games dont' last.
You get to 10th and someones schedule changes or blah blah(life takes over)
Further Its still a great entry for the other two classes SCM and Trix.
AnimaMage has the least oppurtunity cost even at the cost of one spell level.
You also get to bind 2 vestiges of up to potentially 6th level (which is just ambiently excellent but don't take my word for it take a look at JWO&others Consolidated binder handbook about the binder stuff) and/or can add up to at least 12 spells each day of the highest level spell you can cast through exploit vestige...
Great for nova-ing or even having extra slots to toss more metamagic.
The problem is that not enough people have actually played Animamage to go nuts with it like that, and everyone been sold incatrix on the board for so long its pretty much just accepted. Not to say I'm some crackpot I KNOW ICX
Stout but AnM is stout and swift...
You can't gain a feat until you have taken the level, unfortunately. This is because the gaining of the feat is triggered when you have 3 HD, not when you are going to have 3 HD. Thus, you have to get the third HD before you get the feat.
Isn't the fact that the Veil can be dismissed by the Initiate is evidence enough that it follows his commands?
A wall of fire can be dismissed by the caster, yet it is provided as an example of a spell that does not require control in the description of the ability.
So no.
Ok, i don't get it. Are you saying incantatrix's power is overrated?
That depends how you define "overrated". I think the Incantatrix is potentially the most powerful arcane PrC (and therefore - potentially the most powerful PrC in the game because I'm arcane-casting biased) - however - I've seen multiple misinterpretations on this thread that are having posters conclude that there is nothing else even in the same league as the Incanatrix including:
-Steal spell works on any spell that can be dismissed or isn't stationary
-An Incantatrix can add any and all metamagic to all his spells for free
-Using metamagic spell trigger has no real cost of significance
Take those misconceptions away and you are still left with what may be the most powerful PrC in the game - but it isn't in a league of it's own anymore IMO.
So if you define "overrated" as the Incantatrix being probably the top contender for most powerful arcane PrC - then no, I don't think it's overrated.
If you define "overrated" as the Incantrix can cast all his spells as persistant for free and can control any spell or affect created by any other spellcaster - then yes - I think it's been badly overrated.
Of course I could just ignore that it's being misrepresented, except that I know that will come back to bite me when the misconceptions become "accepted truths" - and I constantly have to correct people who PM me or email me discussing their Incantrix "can do anything" builds.
Lists many great features of the Incantatrix .
Yes - these are all great features - Incantatrix's rock.
Cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect are limited per day, yes, but persisting spells on your friends makes them last all day long.
Persist spell is great - persist spell for free on high level spells is uber. However, I ask to consider this exercise with an open mind...
Consider this - an Incantatrix of 9th level (say a 16th level caster) can cast a 8th level spell with free persist - that's equivalent to a 14th level spell. He can do this 2/day.
Now consider a 7th level IotSV (say a 16th level character) - he can raise a partial prismatic sphere as an immediate action. What level of spell is that equivalent to?
The veil has 2 of 7 layers - which isn't as good as a prismatic sphere, but the initiate picks which layers are included and can modify the shape to be personal (and move with him), wall, or area (like the sphere). Overall - probably not quite as good as the actual sphere...
On the other hand - consider quicken spell (5 level metamagic) which changes a spell's casting time to swift. The Initiate gets their veil as an Immediate action - this is many times superior to quicken.
Now a quickened Prismatic Sphere would be equivalent to a 14th level spell. I realize the Initiate's ability isn't identical to that (as I previously broke down - partially worse, partially better) - but IMO this is still a reasonable estimate of power.
The Initiate can use this ability 4 times/day (2x as many as the Incantrix's instant metamagic ability). It does not count against his regular spell memorizations in any way.
Now I already know what people are thinking - so I'll adress it proactively.
1) The Incantatrix's Instant Metamagic power is many times more versatile than the veil
2) Instant Metamagic may be the ability most lauded of the Incantatrix, but they get tons of other stuff too.
3) Once the Incantatrix reaches 17th level - he's persisting 9th level spells - that's a 15th level spell. Never mind all kinds of other ways I can think of making the spell level even higher - if this is a test to see which can cast a higher level spell - the Incantatrix wins.
These are all completely valid points. However, the Incantatrix NEEDS better abilities than the IotSV in order to be EQUAL in levels of power, since the cost of entering the PrC is higher (you lose an entire school of magic), and the abilities are spread over 10 levels instead of 7.
Even then I agree that the Incantatrix may be better than the IotSV - I just happen to think they're in the same league of fantastic. (Along with a few other select PrC's which I've previously mentioned)
Hell, if spellcraft check is the problem, use long duration buffs and extend spell.
I think this is the more likely use of metamagic effect and cooperative metamagic - while instant metamagic is likely to be used for persists.
Assuming an intelligence score of 18 at 8th level and that you can make the check of course (if that's a problem, assume a higher level), it's like having 14 free persistent spells. Compare it with DMM (Persistent) and how many nightsticks (and thus money) you are required to have for this to work - and that's only for yourself.
The fun doesn't stop here of course. You get to use other spellcasters' spells, too. And free metamagic 2/day. And all that for dropping evocation :P
The spellcraft check is a problem. For your 8th level character to persist a 1st level spell - he needs a spellcraft roll of 39. Being that he's likely working off a 20 base INT and 11 ranks, a synergy bonus of +2 - that's a +17 before magic items and feats kick in. That missing 21 +'s is a big bridge to build for an eighth level caster.
So, as you suggest, lets consider a higher level. Eventually - a high level wizard can use all kinds of tricks to up that spellcraft roll. One possibility already mentioned on this thread is use some tricks to qualify for Unseen Seer level 2, get Divine Insight on your spell list - and then cast it before each spellcraft roll (so thats 14 castings of it for those keeping track).
By the way - there is NO WAY an 8th level wizard can get 2 levels of unseen seer - so we're talking higher level.
Unless of course you buy that Spontaneous Divination allows an arcane caster to cast divine spells of the divination school. (I don't buy that - wizards are arcane casters IMO, and limited to arcane casting unless a rule specifically says otherwise, but your DM may well go for it if you ask)
Either way, it is nowhere near free - nor is it enough on it's own to bridge the spellcraft gap - even for 1st level spells.
Another method suggested - become a spellscale (because they rock for wizards, I love taking a Con hit to bump Cha) and getting Draconic Aura for a +4 boost. To me that's a lot of work for +4, but it was suggested as an option. Not a good one, so lets move on.
Item Focus from UA was the easiest route IMO - especially with FractalSoul's insight. However, this still uses up a feat, a magic item, stores many of your skill points in a DM's plot device wetdream, and all relies on an optional rules variant.
So - there are a number of ways to get that spellcraft roll up - but all of them require a lot of maneuvering - and no single option is enough - you will need multiples.
As for a Cleric and DMM cheese - it's a different beast entirely since no roll is needed, but as you mention - nightsticks cost. Personally, I think an Incantatrix beats a DMM cleric hands down. Then again, I think a straight wizard beats a DMM Cleric hands down - so that doesn't say much then.
IMO metamagic effect and cooperative metamagic are strong abilities - but the suggestion that they add up to "14 free persists" I just don't buy. I expect most Incantrix's will be using these abilities for extending 1 hr/level spells or similar lower level effects due to the spellcraft requirements. If I'm missing something - let me know -
So - to address your points, yes, I foresee spellcraft checks as a problem for persisting - yes, I think extending buffs and the like is a perfectly realistic alternative that I will buy into no problem.
I have yet to see a wizard that persists wraithstrike on the party's melee character, arrow mind on the party's ranged fighter, mass vigor, holds concentration of the druid's elemental monolith while he is wild shaped bashing things and STILL is able to cast spells (persistent sonorous hum) to help the party.
Well, I will give you this - even if the Incantatrix can only do 2 of those persists completely reliably - that's pretty awesome.
//edit: i don't think that snatch spell works on veils, either.
Once again, I'm not arguing that Incantatrix's don't rock and roll, they clearly do (and REALLY do) - only that they've been misrepresented in this thread through exaggeration and misinterpretation.
Incantatrix is as good a choice as anything, and much, much better than most choices - but it is not so good that it is a "must-have", or is leaps and bound better than an IotSV/AC build or a MotAO build IMO.
As for SCM's - I really don't know how fantastic they play out - so I will take the various posters word on it, yet I've heard testimonials ranging from "SCM is better than the Incantatrix" to "SCM is completely balanced against a straight conjurer - and their abilities are on par with Abrupt Jaunt." - So, obviously the jury is out.
My rant on TO vs CO (not what these boards are about)
IMO alot of the builds on the CO boards should be in the theoretical forums simply because what non teenager DM is going to allow some of this crap to fly and expect to run the appearance of a balanced game?
In all groups I have been in during my 18 year stretch playing the game, none have allowed random multiclassing for build purposes, and very few have allowed multiple prestige classes. Best bet I have seen is base class till 5-10 lvl range, and choose a single Prc to take to its end. These were not some kind of super restrictive games or anything either, we used the variants, almost all WotC materials, even some 3rd party material.
He hit the nail on the head on a few key points. Archmage is DMG. Thats huge for most real games. Incantatrix is FR, so for most its sorry if your doin Greyhawk. Non-combat versitility spellpool of MotAO is enormous. As far as the ScM goes, we havent even gotten to the point of ruling out heighten abuse it was so cheesy. Dont get me wrong I like the concept, but too much power for too little cost is how we view it.
In all groups I have been in during my 18 year stretch playing the game, none have allowed random multiclassing for build purposes, and very few have allowed multiple prestige classes. Best bet I have seen is base class till 5-10 lvl range, and choose a single Prc to take to its end. These were not some kind of super restrictive games or anything either, we used the variants, almost all WotC materials, even some 3rd party material.
He hit the nail on the head on a few key points. Archmage is DMG. Thats huge for most real games. Incantatrix is FR, so for most its sorry if your doin Greyhawk. Non-combat versitility spellpool of MotAO is enormous. As far as the ScM goes, we havent even gotten to the point of ruling out heighten abuse it was so cheesy. Dont get me wrong I like the concept, but too much power for too little cost is how we view it.
The spellcraft check is a problem. For your 8th level character to persist a 1st level spell - he needs a spellcraft roll of 39. Being that he's likely working off a 20 base INT and 11 ranks, a synergy bonus of +2 - that's a +17 before magic items and feats kick in. That missing 21 +'s is a big bridge to build for an eighth level caster.
So, as you suggest, lets consider a higher level. Eventually - a high level wizard can use all kinds of tricks to up that spellcraft roll. One possibility already mentioned on this thread is use some tricks to qualify for Unseen Seer level 2, get Divine Insight on your spell list - and then cast it before each spellcraft roll (so thats 14 castings of it for those keeping track).
By the way - there is NO WAY an 8th level wizard can get 2 levels of unseen seer - so we're talking higher level.
Unless of course you buy that Spontaneous Divination allows an arcane caster to cast divine spells of the divination school. (I don't buy that - wizards are arcane casters IMO, and limited to arcane casting unless a rule specifically says otherwise, but your DM may well go for it if you ask)
Either way, it is nowhere near free - nor is it enough on it's own to bridge the spellcraft gap - even for 1st level spells.
Another method suggested - become a spellscale (because they rock for wizards, I love taking a Con hit to bump Cha) and getting Draconic Aura for a +4 boost. To me that's a lot of work for +4, but it was suggested as an option. Not a good one, so lets move on.
Item Focus from UA was the easiest route IMO - especially with FractalSoul's insight. However, this still uses up a feat, a magic item, stores many of your skill points in a DM's plot device wetdream, and all relies on an optional rules variant.
So - there are a number of ways to get that spellcraft roll up - but all of them require a lot of maneuvering - and no single option is enough - you will need multiples.
Spellscale, imo, was suggested more for the Io Blood Quickening ability (+1/2 character level to Spellcraft checks), Draconic Aura is just a potential bonus on top of that. So for that, Spellscale is pretty good for an Incantatrix, I wouldn't recommend it for a Wizard otherwise though.
Now, you're saying it's hard to bridge the gap, so lets take your 8th level example:
Spellscale Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 3
Feats:
1: Apprentice (Spellcaster)
3: Iron Will
Wiz5: Extend Spell
6: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Inc1: Persistent Spell
11 Ranks
+5 Int 20 (your own assumption)
+2 synergy (Know Arcana)
+2 competence (Apprentice)
+8 insight (UMD a CL 3 Wand of Divine Insight, since UMD is a class skill thanks to Apprentice)
+4 Io Blood Meditation
+3 Skill Focus
take 10
= 45
That’s not using Flaws, that’s not using Otyugh Hole and Metamagic Storm to free up 2 feat slots (one of which could happily be Draconic Aura), it’s not using an item familiar, or Aid Another from the familiar, or even assuming a +5 competence item. All it assumes is that you can buy a 2nd level wand.
That 45 is enough to Persist 3rd level spells (18+[3x9]). Even just a +5 competence magic item hits the 48 required for 4th level spells (the highest level he can currently cast). With more resources devoted to it it’d be easy to get those 4th level spells persisted. And if not, he can happily Persist spells one level below his maximum as he progresses.
Not to mention the benefits of persisting low level spells like Wraithstrike, Hunter's Eye, etc on your party members.
And the cost? 4500 gp per Wand of Divine Insight you burn through. Now, don’t get me wrong generally I agree with you about the value of charged items, but in this case buying a supply of the relevant wand seems a small price to pay to me.
Level 8
20 Int, 11 ranks, 2 synergy = +18
+10 Competence Item (1k) = +28
+2 Int item (4k) = +29
Take 10 = 39
No feats, no wands, no charges. Cost is 5k worth of permanent items.
+10 competence is 10k iirc. +5 competence and the wand is probably more optimal use of wealth (Just cuz a wand of divine insight would be good to have anyway).
Hmm... I always thought it was the bonus x 100?
[EDIT]: No, it is bonus squared x 100. You're right.
Support.
Ah, thanks Auorix!! I was starting to feel very...alone :raincloud
And the cost? 4500 gp per Wand of Divine Insight you burn through
That's the GP cost. However - when I talk about cost of increasing spellcraft - I'm talking about more than GP.
How much character investment is involved here in getting your spellcraft up? HUGE investment - enough to make that 4500 gp a drop in the bucket. (By character investment I mean gearing Race, Feats etc. away from what's normally optimal for a caster just to deal with the one class feature)
However - lets not ignore the GP cost entirely. 4500 gp is a fair sized investment for an 8th level caster (considering an average wealth of 27,000 at that level - that wand makes up over 15% of your total wealth.
And that's for 1 wand. If you are doing those "14 free persists" everyday - that's a cost of 37,800 for one month of wands - etc, etc, etc.
So, basically you just proved my point. It can be done, but the idea that 14 persists/day is free is a crock. Thanks for the support.
+10 Competence Item (1k)...
Care to quote where this is from? The best item I could find for spellcraft competence was Spellsight Goggles from CAdv - they cost 2500 gp for a +5, the price of a generic item from DMG would be the same.
That's the GP cost. However - when I talk about cost of increasing spellcraft - I'm talking about more than GP.
How much character investment is involved here in getting your spellcraft up? HUGE investment - enough to make that 4500 gp a drop in the bucket. (By character investment I mean gearing Race, Feats etc. away from what's normally optimal for a caster just to deal with the one class feature)
However - lets not ignore the GP cost entirely. 4500 gp is a fair sized investment for an 8th level caster (considering an average wealth of 27,000 at that level - that wand makes up over 15% of your total wealth.
And that's for 1 wand. If you are doing those "14 free persists" everyday - that's a cost of 37,800 for one month of wands - etc, etc, etc.
So, basically you just proved my point. It can be done, but the idea that 14 persists/day is free is a crock. Thanks for the support.
Not much character investment at all afaic.
Apprentice is basically a feat for UMD as a class skill - that's a good deal imo.
And Spellscale opens up the various spells with enhanced effects for Dragonbloods (most notably the free quicken on Arcane Spellsurge for later levels), and the Io Blood Quickening gives you 3 uses of Empower Spell per day on top of the Spellcraft bonus. So I'd say all that is certainly worth the 1 feat cost compared to a human for example.
So as far as character investment is concerned there's two feats - Iron Will and Skill Focus. If a Spellcraft boosting item is available you can skip the Skill Focus, or you could just use it to cap the build with Archmage.
Plus, without the Divine Insight wand its a spellcraft check of 37 - enough to persist 1st and 2nd level spells without the wand. So personally I'd persist some low level choices and just use one or two charges of the wand each morning for the choice higher level spells. Which leaves you some high level slots for casting during the day.
I've never said it's "14 free persists". What it is, is a potential 16 (assuming Int 20) very low cost persists. And for that I think the cost, in both character and gold resource terms, is a very small price to pay.
A wall of fire can be dismissed by the caster, yet it is provided as an example of a spell that does not require control in the description of the ability.
So no.
Actually...I considered this example also, and it does not contradict the 'dismissal as control' theory.
Level: Drd 5, Fire 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Opaque sheet of flame up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of fire with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration: Concentration + 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
As you can see from this snippet, Wall of Fire is NOT dismissable. Additionally, it is concentration-based, and I believe those types of spells are specifically disqualified in the Snatch Spell description. However, that is beside the point anyway given the Incantatrix's seize concentration ability can still steal a wall of fire anyway.
I'm not saying the Dismissable Doctrine is necessarily correct per se - it isn't specifically mentioned in the RAW of the Incantatrix entry. However, as far as I can see it does not contradict any RAW. You'd probably have to toss a question off to Sage to see if its actually remotely allowable, and even then, like I said before, no sane DM would allow it.
Also, Instant Metamagic was errata-ed to not go over the max. spell level the Incantatrix can cast. Cooperative Metamagic & Metamagic Effect still rule though, not to mention Improved Metamagic.
What are we comparing the Incantatrix to ? At level 8, few PrCs give great class abilities. Personally I'd be willing to admit that Incantatrix is in full bloom only a few levels later. After all, Io7V only gets the immediate-action veils at level 13.
At level 15, an Incantatrix can bring most creatures to their knees with a metamagicked Enervation (with Arcane Thesis, Empowered Split Enervation is still a level 4 spell - add more metamagic to taste).
Dweomerkeeper is to gamebreaking as your left arm is to playing soccer. Nice to have, but by no means required to do it.
What's your point?
Since no single/individual PrC/Feat/Rule is required to break the game, you can say that for everything.
First of all, with all TM20 fanboi jokes aside, he has been like 95% right in his posts on this thread...but its moreso than just accuracy, its his point of view on things.My rant on TO vs CO (not what these boards are about)IMO alot of the builds on the CO boards should be in the theoretical forums simply because what non teenager DM is going to allow some of this crap to fly and expect to run the appearance of a balanced game?
In all groups I have been in during my 18 year stretch playing the game, none have allowed random multiclassing for build purposes, and very few have allowed multiple prestige classes. Best bet I have seen is base class till 5-10 lvl range, and choose a single Prc to take to its end. These were not some kind of super restrictive games or anything either, we used the variants, almost all WotC materials, even some 3rd party material.
He hit the nail on the head on a few key points. Archmage is DMG. Thats huge for most real games. Incantatrix is FR, so for most its sorry if your doin Greyhawk. Non-combat versitility spellpool of MotAO is enormous. As far as the ScM goes, we havent even gotten to the point of ruling out heighten abuse it was so cheesy. Dont get me wrong I like the concept, but too much power for too little cost is how we view it.
What's your point?
Since no single/individual PrC/Feat/Rule is required to break the game, you can say that for everything.
Because what dweomerkeeper adds to a cleric, wizard, or archivist is pretty darn negligible and easily duplicated.
Because what dweomerkeeper adds to a cleric, wizard, or archivist is pretty darn negligible and easily duplicated.
Undispelable buffs and exp free wishes up to 4 times per day are easily duplicated?
Undispelable buffs and exp free wishes up to 4 times per day are easily duplicated?
*duh*
First of all, with all TM20 fanboi jokes aside, he has been like 95% right in his posts on this thread...but its moreso than just accuracy, its his point of view on things.My rant on TO vs CO (not what these boards are about)IMO alot of the builds on the CO boards should be in the theoretical forums simply because what non teenager DM is going to allow some of this crap to fly and expect to run the appearance of a balanced game?
In all groups I have been in during my 18 year stretch playing the game, none have allowed random multiclassing for build purposes, and very few have allowed multiple prestige classes. Best bet I have seen is base class till 5-10 lvl range, and choose a single Prc to take to its end. These were not some kind of super restrictive games or anything either, we used the variants, almost all WotC materials, even some 3rd party material.
He hit the nail on the head on a few key points. Archmage is DMG. Thats huge for most real games. Incantatrix is FR, so for most its sorry if your doin Greyhawk. Non-combat versitility spellpool of MotAO is enormous. As far as the ScM goes, we havent even gotten to the point of ruling out heighten abuse it was so cheesy. Dont get me wrong I like the concept, but too much power for too little cost is how we view it.
*yawns* And so you think you are the only one with extensive experience in the older editions, or you are the ultimate authority on what is RP and what isn't? Sorry to disappoint you.
I'd like to see you single-class Conan. Go on. I dare you. Or King Arthur, come to think of it, given his background. Hell, try Chuck Norris. Seriously. All the jokes aside, let's see you make Chuck without multiclassing.
Classes are a metagame concept. If you are forbidding classes because they are classes, you've metagamed. Congrats. You now suck as a RP-er.
+1 Cause that was my rant exactly
I pity you that you haven't been allowed to multiclass for "build" purposes but
I feel that those people who sit down and say I wanna play fighter20 instead of saying "Well I'd like to play a bad-boy sword slinger who fights/and is capable of slaying Dragons or Giants. How do I make that?"
Those first group are the the ones who are metagaming.
Maybe so, but that's not what he said, he didn't say he was against multiclassing - he was pointing out that some campaigns have multiclassing restrictions - he's right, I had a DM who played the exact same rule. I don't necessary believe that most campaigns are run that way - but his point that it happens is just fact - not opinion.
Auorix never mentions in his rant whether he thinks such restrictions are fair - and frankly, his opinion on the matter would be irrelevant - the fact that such restrictions exist is what is.
The point is that just because a DM has restrictions doesn't mean that optimization is dead in that campaign. It just changes the rules. Being that we have many different posters who have DM's who draw lines in several different places - for these boards only to cater to those that have DM's who are more leniant with optimization techniques isn't what these boards are about.
In neither campaign I'm in now does my DM restrict multiclassing as Auorix's does - but both look for at least some kind of in-game reason for entering a PrC, and I can tell from your post that they are both far more restrictive than yours.
So I'll continue to cater to those who have DM's closer in perspective to mine. Even if it is distasteful to you.
Thats why I hate the practical commandments but love the 10 Commandments of optimization. Because "Practical" is such a relative term.
Same guy wrote both - "Practical" may be relative - but his points in the Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization are the kinds of points that weed out TO. They weed out the stuff that nobody's DM will allow. Reread here - and explain to me how breaking these could be anything but theoretical.
From The Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization
1. Not everything needs to be stated explicitly in the rules; some things just are.
A human doesn't have a hundred and fifty-seven arms, even though the rules don't explicitly say that he doesn't. A character doesn't continue running around after he dies, even though the rules don't explicitly list any negative effects for death. If the designers spelled out every single thing explicitly...even the glaringly obvious...the core rulebooks would be larger than the Encyclopedia Brittannica, and would likely cost as much as a Ferrari.
2. "The rules don't say I can't!" is not practical optimization.
The second commandment is like unto the first. There are many things that the rules don't explicitly say you can't do. The rules don't explicitly say you can't do the "I'm a Little Teapot" dance and instantly heal back to full starting hit points as a result. The rules don't explicitly say your first level character can't have a titanium-reinforced skeleton and cybernetic weaponry.
This is because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do--not what you can't. An underlying assumption is that, apart from common-sense actions which anyone can perform, the system will tell you if a given character has a given ability.
Practical opimization is what seperates the CO board from the TO board. The 10 commandments and the practical commandments (which are both written by Caelic) represent a kind of opimization where the DM is not the enemy, and the point of the rules is to use them to optimize your character - not see if there are ways to bend them.
When I see threads about "Destroying my DM's campaign", or "Help me break my game" it gives me a sour taste in my mouth because I feel so sorry for their DM and fellow players who are playing with someone who wants to use optimization as a way to ruin their fun. I like this game, and such behavior gives optimizers a bad name.
"Practical Optimization" is the term I use to seperate me from them.
Auorix hit the nail on the head when he says that some builds on these boards belong on TO. Many builds that seem to show up here aren't going to be allowed in any campaign that frowns on Nanobots. Yes - the rules contain ways that you can exploit infinite loops, or miswordings, or misprints. Discovering them is an interesting thought excercise - but that's where it ends for most of us.
Being that this is Character Optimization and not Theoretical Optimization - these builds are in the wrong forum.
I agree that different DM's draw the line in different places - but any experienced DM will draw it somewhere. Yes - there is a big list of levels of optimization between a Core only Fighter 20 (complete lack of optimization) and Pun Pun (the pure theoretical build). My DM has found a spot on that list where he draws the line, yours has too - as has 99% of posters/readers on these boards.
Frankly, I wouldn't want to play with a DM that didn't draw the line anywhere - because that's his job - and our job is to optimize within the guidelines the DM's have set up.
The closer a build is to the upper area, the less DM's are going to allow it, and it becomes useful to less people on these boards IMO.
First of all, with all TM20 fanboi jokes aside, he has been like 95% right in his posts on this thread...but its moreso than just accuracy, its his point of view on things.
IMO alot of the builds on the CO boards should be in the theoretical forums simply because what non teenager DM is going to allow some of this crap to fly and expect to run the appearance of a balanced game?
In all groups I have been in during my 18 year stretch playing the game, none have allowed random multiclassing for build purposes, and very few have allowed multiple prestige classes. Best bet I have seen is base class till 5-10 lvl range, and choose a single Prc to take to its end. These were not some kind of super restrictive games or anything either, we used the variants, almost all WotC materials, even some 3rd party material.
He hit the nail on the head on a few key points. Archmage is DMG. Thats huge for most real games. Incantatrix is FR, so for most its sorry if your doin Greyhawk. Non-combat versitility spellpool of MotAO is enormous. As far as the ScM goes, we havent even gotten to the point of ruling out heighten abuse it was so cheesy. Dont get me wrong I like the concept, but too much power for too little cost is how we view it.
I wish the conversation would have stuck to which single Prc we all liked the most as opposed to what builds were the best.
A few points:
1. Allow me to be the exception to your rule. I allow anything at my table, so long as it progresses from level 1 (where my campaign starts) to level 20 (where my campaign ends). So far, we've had 6 characters make some awesome optimization choices thanks to the help of these boards, and I've presented them with some extremely challenging enemies, once again thanks to the help of these boards. (PM me if you want to know how I dealt with Pun-Pun)
2. You're right that we've started discussing builds instead of single class. So far in the running we have:
Archmage
Incantatrix
Shadowcraft Mage
Anima Mage
Rules clarification: We are assuming a mid-level optimization build. That is, and equal number of optimal choices and an equal number of sub-optimal choices. Assuming 8 feats (1,3,6,9,12,15,18), that's 4 optimal, 4 sub-optimal. As for stats, we'll use the elite array, so max 15 int starting. Assume the character starts at level 1, so no LA buyoff and no templates. Now, based on this ruleset, which arcane prestige class is the most effective in the greatest number of circumstances. I look forward to further opinion and debate.
1. I thought Anima Mage required the Soul Binding class feature, not the ability to bind vestiges. The feats grant you the ability to bind vestiges, but they don't say you have the Soul Binding class feature. The Binder class specifically states that it gives Soul Binding, and not just the ability to bind vestiges. So am I being over technical here and going too far with my RAW or are the feats not enough to enter the prestige class? My thought is the feats don't give full access to the vestiges because they are not the equal to soul binding, and therefore don't allow access to Anima Mage.
2. Are we talking about the most useful prestige class? Most class abilities? Most commonly use? Most versatile? Does it have to be full progression or can dip classes work too? What makes a prestige class the most powerful? I would point out that even if you just dip it Master Specialist is a good class. Everyone can use it instead of Wizard. You get 2 feats that can help open other PrC's, it's easy to get into, it has several class features that are at least minorly helpful, and there is almost never a reason not to take a couple of levels before 5th level. I would argue this could place it close, if not in, the top tier.
As a complete Prestige Class, it certainly is not very strong, but hear me out.
As it is described in the FAQ, taking Practiced Spellcaster can net you anywhere between a +1 to +3 in caster level, without the downside of a CL loss.
Combined with a Greater Rite of Draconic Passage Kobold Sorcerer
As early as level 6, one could have a variable Caster Level of 7-10
Sorcerer 5 / +5 CL
Wild Mage 1 / +1 CL
Greater Rite of Draconic Passage / +1 CL
Wild Magic / +0-3 CL
The feat prereq is a pain, but it lends itself well to boosting CL very early. Magical Aptitude isn't a *complete* waste if one is going to follow up with Incantatrix and/or is a umd dragonblood sorcerer.
Another potentially interesting use might be in conjunction with non-early entry Theurge builds, where Precious Apprentice and the like are disallowed.
Divine 3 / Arcane 2 / Wild Mage 1 / Theurge Classes
Since these types of builds often take Practiced Spellcaster, and part of that CL boost may be wasted, on average Wild Magic nets a gain in CL. Though still a pain on feats.
Then again there could be more efficient ways to boost CL early on that I'm noobishly not aware of.
Perhaps worth a mention is the the 1-level dip into Wild Mage.
It's an ok option, but this thread is about the most powerful Arcane PrC, not useful 1-level dips.
Maybe so, but that's not what he said, he didn't say he was against multiclassing - he was pointing out that some campaigns have multiclassing restrictions - he's right, I had a DM who played the exact same rule. I don't necessary believe that most campaigns are run that way - but his point that it happens is just fact - not opinion.
Thanks, I am actually very pro multi-classing and do believe many well known heroes and villans would not have had any justice done to them with a single class. I like to come up with the unique backround stories explaining a build. Problem is DMs I have played with see too many classes in a build and will write it off as powergaming regardless of my story. The happy medium I have found is keep the story but reduce the "far-fetched" multitude of classes involved. This reduces optimization but does still allow some...alot of builds posted here on the CO boards break or are rendered handicaped when missing even a single piece of the puzzle.
I just have to figure out how to optimize within the lines drawn by the dms I run with like TM20 says. I wouldnt frequent these boards otherwise.
So I'll continue to cater to those who have DM's closer in perspective to mine. Even if it is distasteful to you.
I think thats the biggest reason I like alot of your works.
Practical opimization is what seperates the CO board from the TO board. The 10 commandments and the practical commandments (which are both written by Caelic) represent a kind of opimization where the DM is not the enemy, and the point of the rules is to use them to optimize your character - not see if there are ways to bend them.
I just look a step further when reading here and any combinations that RPing wise are too far fetched I write off and only finish reading to see if a portion of it can be salvaged to be used in some other build.
I like the way Cuindless does it. Start at lvl 1 and work for it if you want it.
Stuff
No. Actually you missed the point.
The point of my post is (minus the dramatics), in a discussion of "what is most powerful" I feel its a bad premise to attempt to add credence to things like "the Archmage" (for instance) based upon thier availability in the "Core" books.
It would be perhaps different if we were helping someone with a build because we'd have his available sources listed (hopefully) to chose from and work within the premise of. As this is not the case and its pretty much an objective power thing (as in not subjective to the rules of any dm) then no extra validity or import can be placed on any one class based upon it relative location in print to the DMG.
Perhaps if he said "whats the most poweful in each setting... or within these comfines then yeah.
It was more clearly defined though 5 posts up.
Basically, I feel like the argument that you support and Aurix defined is something akin to.
"The op said which arcane prestige class is the most effective in the greatest number of circumstances, well the archmage is portable into any campaign thus it's the most effective in the greatest number of circumstances" I don't agree with that logic.
On the subject of Caelic and the PC'oO.
My Pm box is full of our arguments. I respect his work. We disagree on things... alot. Mostly "DM's" role. So you're kinda talking to me about stuff I know by heart there, but I understand your position.
In neither campaign I'm in now does my DM restrict multiclassing as Auorix's does - but both look for at least some kind of in-game reason for entering a PrC, and I can tell from your post that they are both far more restrictive than yours.
I see your dillema there. I Dm, I run 2 games currently. I don't require that, because I feel like "Fluff is mutable" if you want to be a barbarian who isnt' from the wild but from the mean streets of the bronx I'm not gonna call you on "well thats a class from the wilderness, you can't be that if you're from the city!" (and yes I realize you said Prc. My example is a simplification of the idea) I don't need an in game justification of what you want to do with YOUR character. I understand that there are people that do there was a whole "What to do when your dm won't let you optimize" thread I dont' have the link but i should sig it probbably for situations like this.
So I'll continue to cater to those who have DM's closer in perspective to mine. Even if it is distasteful to you
Which really I'm cool with that, I read your guide, I really really read it. I see where your coming from so its not in general distasteful to me. I simply disagree in the context of this conversation.
Forgive me if I came off like a Rampaging troll. (Its just the barbarian levels...)
No. Actually you missed the point.
The point of my post is (minus the dramatics), in a discussion of "what is most powerful" I feel its a bad premise to attempt to add credence to things like "the Archmage" (for instance) based upon thier availability in the "Core" books.
Clearly I did miss the point, I didn't get that AT ALL from your last post.
The argument that "core" shouldn't make a difference in a "most powerful" discussion unless the OP makes source restrictions is a solid one.
Your last post I took more as an attack on Auorix than on "core" equalling "more powerful".
"The op said which arcane prestige class is the most effective in the greatest number of circumstances, well the archmage is portable into any campaign thus it's the most effective in the greatest number of circumstances" I don't agree with that logic.
Certainly the "greatest number of circumstances" clause in the OP needs clarification.
On the subject of Caelic and the PC'oO.
My Pm box is full of our arguments. I respect his work. We disagree on things... alot. Mostly "DM's" role. So you're kinda talking to me about stuff I know by heart there, but I understand your position.
Caelic is my hero. When I read the Practical commandments it was like he read my mind. Some are a little redundant (1 and 2 are very similar) - but I guess he needed to make 10 to be a proper followup to T10CoO.
I see your dillema there. I Dm, I run 2 games currently. I don't require that, because I feel like "Fluff is mutable" ...
When I DM, I treat any core class flavor script as suggestion only. However, PrC's are supposed to be flavor driven (IMO), so I expect some kind of story reason for entering one. (or at least with PrC's that don't fit the character type - for example - I have issues with a character entering "Fist of the Forest" if their character is not "outdoorsy" and the campaign is primarily dungeoncrawl/urban unless the player has some in-character reason why)
Personally, I never force players to complete a PrC - but as I said, one player in our group does when he DM's. No big deal - as Auorix says, optimization is still possible - you simply work within the framework provided.
I see where your coming from so its not in general distasteful to me. I simply disagree in the context of this conversation.
Fair enough.
As for the new parameters of the discussion - I'm confused. If we are discussing a mid level build - how is there an 18th level feat obtained...?
Now, to further define this, we need to take a look at the supposed roles that need to be filled. Treantmonk's guide proposes 4 out of combat roles (Social, Sneak, Healbot and Utility Caster) and 4 in combat roles (Big Stupid Fighter, Glass Cannon, God and Waste of Space). Defining it this way would give Treantmonk an unfair advantage in the discussion because he literally wrote the book... er... thread. So, instead, we'll define the out of combat roles as follows:
Social - Primarily responsible for peaceful interaction with NPCs.
Scout - Primarily responsible for gathering intelligence about threats.
Vinayaka - "One who removes obstacles." Primarily responsible for getting passed locked doors, traps and hostile terrain.
Healer - Primarily responsible for healing and ressurections.
Transport - Primarily responsible for getting the party places.
Now the combat roles we'll define this way:
Tank - High hit points and AC. Responsible for absorbing most of the enemy's attacks.
Damage Dealer - Primarily responsible for inflicting an enormous amount of damage.
Buffer - Primarily responsible for making the rest of the party better at combat.
Debuffer - Primarily responsible for making the enemy worse at combat. This includes debilitating conditions such as prone, blind, deaf, et cetera.
Battlefield Controller - Primarily responsible for adjusting the battlefield to favor the party.
Now, obviously, a single arcane PrC can't fulfill all of these rolls 100% of the time with 100% effectiveness, so what we're looking for is the one that fulfills the highest number with the best results. Once again, I don't want to focus on builds, just on the raw potential of the PrC. Does that help make things clearer, or did I just muddy the waters?
Now, obviously, a single arcane PrC can't fulfill all of these rolls 100% of the time with 100% effectiveness, so what we're looking for is the one that fulfills the highest number with the best results. Once again, I don't want to focus on builds, just on the raw potential of the PrC. Does that help make things clearer, or did I just muddy the waters?
Oh - then Beguiler. Wait - does it have to be a PrC? - in that case - Beguiler into Unseen Seer.
First Reality: Every time your wizard uses a Scroll, Wand or Staff - he's made himself less powerful forever.
No kidding. Now in perspective - casting a spell off a 1st level wand or scroll is almost non-existant in terms of cost - the higher the spell level - the greater the cost to you.
I disagree with this, in that there is an estimated wealth by level guideline. Thus, if you burn up enough wands to actually have a significant effect upon your total wealth, your GM will eventually bring you back to the expected value by adding more treasure. Thus, the drop in your power level is only for a finite term. Longer term than casting a spell, certainly, but if you are willing to pay the price you can get items that far outstrip spells you can naturally cast. It's basically a gold-plated nova.
Now the combat roles we'll define this way:
Tank - High hit points and AC. Responsible for absorbing most of the enemy's attacks.
Damage Dealer - Primarily responsible for inflicting an enormous amount of damage.
Buffer - Primarily responsible for making the rest of the party better at combat.
Debuffer - Primarily responsible for making the enemy worse at combat. This includes debilitating conditions such as prone, blind, deaf, et cetera.
Battlefield Controller - Primarily responsible for adjusting the battlefield to favor the party.
Now, obviously, a single arcane PrC can't fulfill all of these rolls 100% of the time with 100% effectiveness, so what we're looking for is the one that fulfills the highest number with the best results. Once again, I don't want to focus on builds, just on the raw potential of the PrC. Does that help make things clearer, or did I just muddy the waters?
I'm partial to the IOT7FV for the tank/debuffer role myself. Last time I played one I killed more things with my veils than my spells.
As for the new parameters of the discussion - I'm confused. If we are discussing a mid level build - how is there an 18th level feat obtained...?
I mispoke (misposted?). When I said "mid-level" I meant the level of optimization would be middle of the road, i.e. average. I didn't mean between levels 8 - 12. That was poor semantics on my part.
It's an ok option, but this thread is about the most powerful Arcane PrC, not useful 1-level dips.
MAGICAL APTITUDE
Wild Mage requires the freakin' MAGICAL APTITUDE feat, which is not only crap on a stick itself, but the combo also requires Practiced Spellcaster which is also crap on a stick for a straight spellcaster not losing CLs.
Two feats for an average of a +1 bonus to CL. That's freakin' TERRIBLE.
Also, I'm going to post another cheap Spellcraft booster.
Azurin w/ feat Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) and Bonus Essentia at 12. +10 bonus to Spellcraft with all Essentia invested in Mage's Spectacles. +10 bonus to UMD as well.
Oh - then Beguiler. Wait - does it have to be a PrC? - in that case - Beguiler into Unseen Seer.
Beguiler/Shadowcraft mage!
MAGICAL APTITUDE
Wild Mage requires the freakin' MAGICAL APTITUDE feat, which is not only crap on a stick itself, but the combo also requires Practiced Spellcaster which is also crap on a stick for a straight spellcaster not losing CLs.
Two feats for an average of a +1 bonus to CL. That's freakin' TERRIBLE.
Also, I'm going to post another cheap Spellcraft booster.
Azurin w/ feat Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) and Bonus Essentia at 12. +10 bonus to Spellcraft with all Essentia invested in Mage's Spectacles. +10 bonus to UMD as well.
It is not great by any means, but it can boost CL early, and it does synergize with Incantatrix's need for Spellcraft. Yes there are better ways to max out Spellcraft straight up. Yes there are better ways to gain higher CL, but not many that can be done early that I am familiar with.
I was not going to continue since Cuindless clarified that he is looking at:
PrCs singularly and independently
PrCs fulfilling multiple roles
What's unfortunate is that usually a clever use of multiple PrCs outweigh the strength of one, and as such it's often better to look at builds as a whole. For the sake of argument, I suppose some DMs only allow one PrC, which makes this thread much more valuable to some. There are plenty of other what-if circumstances in the campaign to consider as well, what level it starts, what level it ends, etc, although it was not a consideration asked for by Cuindless.
Anyhow, that's it for me, carry on
Wrong. If you enter with Wizard, take two feats and an alternate class feature, you will essentially be able to cast spontaneously:
--Any Conjuration spell in the game
--Any Evocation spell in the game
--Any Divination spell in the game
--Any Illusion (Glamer) spell in the game
Can you show miss as well? I'm interested in seeing how this, especially any conjuration spell.
And then you get that Summon Monster vestige... now that's just insane.
JaronK
Human Wizard 1 with both Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige, Precocious Apprentice, and any Metamagic feat.
Omen of Peril stated it twice, I emphasize his posting again to clarify some misunderstandings here:
After the PGtF-Errata, the Incantatrix can use her "Instant Metamagic-ability" only up to a spell level which she would be able to cast (with the metamagic feat applied) in the first place.
So:
if you want to use - say - a Globe of Invulnerability and make it persistant, you must remember that it is a 6th level spell. Persistant Spell costs +6, +5 if you have the "Improved Metamagic" - ability.
So you would reach the spell level 11 or 12. You cannot cast both spell levels pre-epic. So you cannot use persistant on the globe normally, which means that you cannot use Instant Metamagic (Persistant) on the Globe, too.
Please, consider this Errata if you argue about the Incantatrix' powers.
Second, I dont understand why an Archmage would be a bad choice.
I read the following arguments:
1.) High Pre-Reqs: 3 "dead" feats, many skill points in 2 skills
2.) Weaker than the incantatrix as an better choice.
To 1: I don't think that a Spell focus is a dead feat. You have a very limited way to increase your DCs, here u get one for two schools. Every point counts, so the +1 is not much, but it can make the difference between save or suck (and it DID make the difference in many sessions).
Oh, and if you start the argument with "no save, no SR - Spells" like Conjurations, well, thats a good thing, yes, but it's not the only thing a wizard wants to do.
A Disintegration-Spell requires a high DC, so you have paid wisely in Spell Focus (Transmutation). Even the damage dealers of Evocation get way better with tremendously high DCs (no save means full damage, so what?).
Even the so "weak called" Spell Focus (Abjuration) is a very good investment. Yes, you heard right. Consider the abjuration spells and then look onto the saves. Just some spells to show what I am talking about: Dismissal/Banishment, Maw of Chaos, Wall of Good, (Greater) Sign of Sealing, Reciprocal Gyre, Reaving Dispel, Force Ward, Refusal, Explosive Runes, Repulsion, Imprisonment, Fire Trap and Guards & Wards.
Many of those spells are powerful, unique and versatile. Good, if they work wholly.
This brings us to the strong build of Master Specialist (Abjur) with the Iot7V where you get even a Greater Spell Focus and many bonuses to dispel checks.
The Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is not dead if you combine the Archmage with the Incantatrix since you get a synergy for all those class features with only 1 feat. For Roleplaying reasons, its never wrong to have a maxed out Spellcraft-skill as a wizard.
That bring us to the skill points. I can't imagine any wizard who does NOT max out Spellcraft, KL (Arcana) and Concentration. So, the 15 ranks in two of those skills is no barrier, it is a thing you do anyway.
To 2: The Archmage is not working against the incanatrix, it is working with the Incantatrix. The Archmage is - roleplaywise and in the mechanical way - the high end PrC. So, the Archmage works together with other powerful prestige classes like the Incantatrx or the Iot7V.
So, that's why he does not lose against the Incantatrix or the Initiate. There is no "either-or-choice." It's just the pure, raw high-level PrC for the ultimate raw power of magic.
As high-level-wizard, you want some High Arcanas.
- Think about getting Time Stop twice, but paying only one 9th-level-slot (and one 6th).
- Think about caster level boosters. You want every (!) point you can get to your spell power (remember dispel and SR).
- Think about arcane reach and shaping.
=> Yes, its a good investment to get 4 High Arcanas. As Number 5 i would even suggest a second SLA. What about Greater Dispel Magic? Greater Teleport?
Can you show miss as well? I'm interested in seeing how this, especially any conjuration spell.
Only Shades allows to use any conjuration spell, so he's exaggerating.
One vestige, created later (but official, it's on the website) lets them chose any item creation feat they want at the beginning of the day and keep it for the day. Just continually bind that vestige while crafting and you're good to go.
And then you get that Summon Monster vestige... now that's just insane.
Astaroth and Zceryll respectively.
I'm not sure if this has been stated before, but with the use of Flaws, you can qualify for Anima Mage by 2nd
Human Wizard 1 with both Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige, Precocious Apprentice, and any Metamagic feat.
But then you don't have a binding progression.
@SpecialK: thanks for the mention, though you massacred my nick. ;)
I haven't read this thread in ages, but I don't think consider the Archmage weak. It is however most certainly weaker than most options presented here. Since the thread is about the "most powerful arcane PrC" I feel leaving it aside is justified.
In a core game it's an obvious choice. It's good indeed to complement other PrCs, but that doesn't put it on the same level.
Forceward and Reaving Dispel don't have saves. The other interesting spell in the list are high-level. SF(Conj) and SF(Trans) are often the best choices since they are tied to the best schools, but of course an Enchanter/Necromancer will get the corresponding SF.
The SF are not weak, but they're not strong.
Spell Power is lackluster - there are better options vs SR and for dispels. SLAs, Arcane Reach & Mastery of Shaping are good but not necessarily needed.
After the PGtF-Errata, the Incantatrix can use her "Instant Metamagic-ability" only up to a spell level which she would be able to cast (with the metamagic feat applied) in the first place.
So:
if you want to use - say - a Globe of Invulnerability and make it persistant, you must remember that it is a 6th level spell. Persistant Spell costs +6, +5 if you have the "Improved Metamagic" - ability.
So you would reach the spell level 11 or 12. You cannot cast both spell levels pre-epic. So you cannot use persistant on the globe normally, which means that you cannot use Instant Metamagic (Persistant) on the Globe, too.
Please, consider this Errata if you argue about the Incantatrix' powers.
But he can cast Globe of Invulnerability first, then apply Metamagic Effect to it, right?
:D
@Thread: well, it seems like metamagic effect works with such a tactic. I have never bothered at all with Metamagic Effect and Seize Concentration, I was focused on Copperative Metamagic, Snatch Spell and Metamagic Spell Trigger.
But maybe this is a good opportunity to list which spells are good to use with Metamagic Effect and Seize Concentration (i don't like the latter feature because it is restricted to "concentration spells").
On the other hand, I think the wording of "metamagic spell effect" focused on the word "effect."
If you read it that way, then it could mean that the feature only works on spells with the entry "Effect."
There are two arguments to make this solid:
First, the feature talks about "effect." "effect" is settled in the rules and describes spell which create an effect.
Another variable would be Area or Target.
The lesser globe got an area entry.
Second, both spell examples stated in the PGtF are indeed effect spells.
Therefore, I think the wording is clear: metamagic effect can only be applied to spells with the entry: "effect."
So no, you cannot make the globe persistable with this feature (since the globe-spell has an area- and not an effect-entry).
@Omen of Peril: woops, I got confused with your nickname. You know, there is a spell called Omen of Peril, maybe that's the reason - though, a funny one
*cough*
Yes, I am aware of this (good) spell.
Area
[...]
Burst, Emanation, or Spread
[...]
A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area
Disproved. A spell effect is not always the effect created by an Effect spell.
"spell effect" is merely a word, a sentence, but without any connection to the term itself.
But if we read the incantatrix' description precisely, we see that the term "effect" is used as we know it - a rules term.
The exampled emphasize this assumption - only effect-spells are mentioned.
Finally, it would be way too powerful if you could use this feature with ANY spell.
"spell effect" is clearly not the same as "spell effect" indeed.
Yes, it is extremely powerful. You are free to houserule based on the examples, but they're just that, examples.