I was wondering, what is the most powerful PHB+Dmg only character? I have been trying to make a totally optimized character for a campaign I'm in, but my DM is extremley strict. Core Races only, start at lvl 1, and only thing you can use outside the PHB are PRC from the DMG.
So I come to you, the powerful gods of character optimization, to humbly beseach you to help me create a character of ungodly proportions, using only the PHB and the PRC from the DMG.
From what I've looked at, a wizard or druid is my best bet, but can anyone point me to builds and such that only use the books I can?
Thanks in advance.
Human Druid 20. Maximize wisdom, put a lot of points to constitution. Distribute others as you see fit. Start with a riding dog companion and get a lot of javelins. Use Entangle to stop enemies, finish them with javelins while your dog kills anyone who gets too near. After this, win.
From what I've looked at, a wizard or druid is my best bet, but can anyone point me to builds and such that only use the books I can?
Thanks in advance.
Druid 20 with Natural Spell and anything else.
Wizard 20.
There's no point in brainstorming more than it is needed.....but you have to say what do you want to do..... Blasting? Battlefield Control? Buffing? Nothing?
EDIT: or what Tshern said.
(Plus, what's the fun of a riding dog if you're too big to ride on it?)
Alternately, something like Wiz10/Lore5/Archmage5 wouldn't be too bad. 3 secrets, 5 High Arcanas, 3 bonus feats not including Scribe Scroll. Follow the above listed spell progression.
How do you define powerful? If a character that can do anything well is powerful, what about a character that can do only that one thing, but he is the best at it?
A druid can be a great anything, but he won't be the master of skills and deception a Rogue is, nor a god of battlefield control as the Wizard.
In poor words, what do YOU want your character to excell in?
Anyone remember who made it up?
Gnomes make the best druids.
1) Spell Focus: Conjuration
3) Augment Summoning
6) Natural Spell
9) Nothing else
12) matters because
15) you kick
18) TOO MUCH ASS!!!11
to me the best Core Archer is:
Wood Elf
patron: Ehlonna
Domains: Animal,Plant
Ranger 2/ Cleric 18
this gives 2 extra feats, a whole lot more skill points than Cleric 20, and still gets 9th lvl spells(including Shapeshift)
if you want a more Ranger Approach... try this:
Wood Elf
Rogue 1/ Fighter 2/ Ranger 17 or Ranger 12/ Fighter 8 ... works great
get a ton of Skills, Extra Feats, and Still get Hide in Plain Sight
[sblock=Core Dragon Slayer]
CORE Dragon Slayer
This should be effective vs any creature....but especially vs Dragons(ANY)
try this ..... first what the Dragon of Similar CR can do.... CR 20 Red Dragon =
CR20 Old Red Dragon
CR 20 Old Red Dragon
[indent]
Gargantuan
HD 28d12+196 (378 hit points)
Speed:40 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy)
Initiative +0
AC 33 (–4 size, +27 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 33
DR 10/magic
SR 24
Sorceror caster lvl =11th , 5th lvl spells
35 Str
10 Dex
25 Con
20 Int
21 Wis
20 Cha
BAB+28/+52 Grapple
+36 Attack Bonus
saves(FRW) +23/ +16 /+21
Breath Weapon 16d10 (save DC 31) 60' cone
Frightful presence DC 29(240' range)
Blindsense (Ex): Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.
Keen Senses (Ex): A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.
Skills:
Spot 36
Listen 36
Search 36
[/indent]
CR 20 Old Red Dragon
[indent]
Gargantuan
HD 28d12+196 (378 hit points)
Speed:40 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy)
Initiative +0
AC 33 (–4 size, +27 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 33
DR 10/magic
SR 24
Sorceror caster lvl =11th , 5th lvl spells
35 Str
10 Dex
25 Con
20 Int
21 Wis
20 Cha
BAB+28/+52 Grapple
+36 Attack Bonus
saves(FRW) +23/ +16 /+21
Breath Weapon 16d10 (save DC 31) 60' cone
Frightful presence DC 29(240' range)
Blindsense (Ex): Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.
Keen Senses (Ex): A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.
Skills:
Spot 36
Listen 36
Search 36
[/indent]
From levels 11-20 the Wizard (Archmage ASAP) takes over
Of course, it's all subjective - the effectiveness of your character will be largely dependant on what the other players make.
If the party is melee-heavy - Wizards are better.
If the party is melee-light - Druids are better.
EDIT: Stats for Animal companions come from Monster manual, too.
Thanks for all the stuff about a druid and wizard, I'll probably pick a druid (for their survivability at low levels). I've already tried an archer build thanks, but I found that I don't really like clerics at low levels (because all they are is a walking first aid kit).
What are the best strategies for a low level druid/wizard? I'm hesitant of playing a wizard only because my first char (a sorcerer) died in the first encounter from 1 hit.
Thank you so much Tshern for that advice! Why a riding dog over a wolf? Wouldn't trip make the wolf a better companion?
also the attack bonus is beter than a wolf if I remember correctly.
Combine that with better all-around stats than the wolf, and you've got a much better companion. However, if your DM doesn't give the riding dog its trip attack, I'd stick with the wolf, personally.
Here's my advice for core druids:
Levels 1-2: Don't engage in melee. Send your animal companion to fight for you, and be prepared to buff/heal it. In outdoor encounters, entangle + ranged attacks is killer. Fearie fire + obscuring mist is also fun.
Levels 3-4: Entangle + summon swarm is now oodles of fun (spiders are best). Also, SNA is reasonable by now, especially since you'll have Augment Summoning. Crocodile for grapples, dire bat because fliers kick ass at low levels, or wolves for trip attempts. (It's mean to your summons, and takes three spells, but SNA (wolf) + Entangle + Summon Swarm (spiders) is sick - restrict their movement and trip them to keep them in the swarm and away from you).
Level 5: Your spells just got a lot better. Sleet storm is crazy good battlefield control (remember, the opponent is flat-footed if they have less than 5 ranks in Balance), call lightning is your first good blast spell, and poison is an awesome save-or-be-screwed. SNA3 gives you some excellent summons (Dire Weasel for no-save Con drain, Dire Wolf for great tripping, Lion for damage).
Oh yeah, and when that gets boring, you can, say, Wild Shape into a dinosaur for a few hours. Fun!
Level 6+: You now have Natural Spell. There is never any reason to leave wild shape, unless you're the talkative sort. You will outclass the core fighter/barbarian in melee, and have an excellent assortment of spells, including blasting that keeps up with the wizard, OK healing and battlefield control, and some of the best buffs in the game.
Congratulations, you just beat Core D&D!
By alternative, I'd suggest that even with core, it pays to be God in the wizard(see Treantmonk's guides). I think making the rest of your group super-effective will have greater payoffs in both satisfaction and in group unity. Be a druid, and you get to outshine everyone. Be God(so to speak), and you won't NEED to outshine anyone. Furthermore, given the knowledge level of most groups(ie, casual players), it is more likely that they already have characters who can fill the roles a druid would(albeit not as spectacularly), but in my experience a good 'God'-style wizard is much more rare.
In summary, druid may have more power individually at certain stages of the game, but I think your group as a whole would be more powerful if you were a battlefield control wizard.
Read Treantmonk's guide to wizards: Being a God, it's worth it.
Druids can do battlefield control too! It's not only for wizards!
True - but wizards are quite a bit better at it. You can also get a whole lot more castings per day with a wizard.
Druids are often too busy biting things to cast.
True - but wizards are quite a bit better at it. You can also get a whole lot more castings per day with a wizard.
Druids are often too busy biting things to cast.
That's what I was trying to say.
It is true that druids can do anything, but they're not the best at anything, nor probably they WILL actually do anything in a "standard" game; they specialize as any other character do, and often, as Treantmonk stated, specialize in biting things.
CoDzillas are not the be-all-end-all:
if your druid or cleric focus is self-buffing to replace the BSF, then the primary spellcaster role has to be filled by someone else.
If instead you focus more on spellcasting, your melee capacity is still good, but an optimized barbarian will blow you out of the water.
That's my opinion anyway. Flame away!
True - but wizards are quite a bit better at it. You can also get a whole lot more castings per day with a wizard.
Druids are often too busy biting things to cast.
At 1st level, druids get Entangle, which is one of the best low level BC spells in the game. It won't work outdoors or in caves and stuff, so it is a bit encounter dependant. But if you know you're going to be fighting outside alot, there isn't any better BC to be had at that point.
Later, I agree that druids are surpassed by wizards as the BC masters. But at first level, wizards can't touch Entangle.
That's what I was trying to say.
It is true that druids can do anything, but they're not the best at anything, nor probably they WILL actually do anything in a "standard" game; they specialize as any other character do, and often, as Treantmonk stated, specialize in biting things.
That doesn't weaken them in the slightest. They perform as the BSF alot of times, but that doesn't mean they lose the ability to cast...
if your druid or cleric focus is self-buffing to replace the BSF, then the primary spellcaster role has to be filled by someone else.
No it doesn't. It doesn't take that many spells to replace the BSF. You still have plenty.
That's my opinion anyway. Flame away!
These arguments are old and just not true. This probably gets brought up more than anything else on the entire WotC boards.
At 1st level, druids get Entangle, which is one of the best low level BC spells in the game. It won't work outdoors or in caves and stuff, so it is a bit encounter dependant. But if you know you're going to be fighting outside alot, there isn't any better BC to be had at that point. Later, I agree that druids are surpassed by wizards as the BC masters. But at first level, wizards can't touch Entangle.
Ain't saying it is ineffective, just more limited. You stated just the same.
That doesn't weaken them in the slightest. They perform as the BSF alot of times, but that doesn't mean they lose the ability to cast...
Not saying they're weak at all. let me get this straight: If you are focusing on being the BSF, you'll be in melee most of the time, you'll fill your spell slots with buff mostly (sure there will still be some utility spells, no arguing that) and you'll cast less then a focused caster. Why? because you LIKE being the BSF, and you'll try to resolve "issues" almost the same way as a BSF: beating 'em very hard. You'd prefer to charge-pounce-rend than cast entangle most of the time, right?
No it doesn't. It doesn't take that many spells to replace the BSF. You still have plenty.
Is the same thing, the other way around: if you LIKE being a caster, controlling the battlefield, or summoning things, you'll keep your damage-dealing shapeshift-forms as a last resource in battle.
As I said, you could do anything, but in a real game you probably won't. because you don't really WANT to, I suppose.
These arguments are old and just not true. This probably gets brought up more than anything else on the entire WotC boards.
Old arguments? maybe, but my point of view nonetheless.
I was just asking for it, wasn't I? ;)
The druid doesn't need to do much besides walk around as a bear all day and maul monster's faces off. So I think what I said still applies to him.
You know... since this is for core only, you're probably right as far as the cleric. The cleric won't have DMM: Persistent, which means he'll have to rely on Quicken Spell and/or Contingency to get his buffs up, and he'll have to cast them for every combat. That is quite draining.
The druid doesn't need to do much besides walk around as a bear all day and maul monster's faces off. So I think what I said still applies to him.
An "almost right" is more then sufficent for me with this kind of thorny argument :D
Glad this hasn't degenerated in a flame war (yet...)
That doesn't weaken them in the slightest. They perform as the BSF alot of times, but that doesn't mean they lose the ability to cast...
No it doesn't. It doesn't take that many spells to replace the BSF. You still have plenty.These arguments are old and just not true. This probably gets brought up more than anything else on the entire WotC boards.
(hah, I was typing up a full response and got beat to it).
Ditto to Shigunaru. The point isn't that a druid CAN'T do it, and it's not that the druid is less powerful, but that by replacing the BSF he is committing a certain number of actions to the kind of stuff a BSF does. In short, he won't be casting at the rate that you'd want a Battlefield Control mage to be casting at(though at earlier levels this is obviously not as important), and he won't be doing it with the effectiveness of a 'God' either.
At 1st level, druids get Entangle, which is one of the best low level BC spells in the game. It won't work outdoors or in caves and stuff, so it is a bit encounter dependant. But if you know you're going to be fighting outside alot, there isn't any better BC to be had at that point.
Agreed. Entangle is great.
However - I'll still take a 1st level illusionist with Silent Image for BC becuase of greater number of castings and vastly improved versatility.
A first level conjurer also has more castings, and although Grease doesn't measure up to a well-placed entangle- again there is more versatiliy.
However - I am a big entangle fan - because when you are in the environment to get one off - it's almost as good as a web.
Once the wizard gets to level 3 - it's over.
Evil cleric with his undead army with the travel and trickery domains
Damn. +1
Go wizard if your DM is that strict, but well..
Hope he is not.
Wizard 10 / Loremaster 7 / Archmage 3
Druid fails, you have no access to Monster Manual, therefore you can't shapeshift into anything. Except for humans/elves/gnomes/half orcs of course.
See post #11
I also vote for Druid.
Play one while you can, they won't be around in 4e for a year or so, and even then, they will more closely resemble shapeshift variant.