Okay, that's a blatant lie. Planar Shepherd and Dweomerkeeper are far too broken for much else to complete.
But seriously, I +1 Dweomer Keeper for what it's worth.
If we take a step down in power: radiant servant of pelor, knight of the raven and fist of raziel are all quite powerful/excellent PrCs.
The latter two both lose CL's, so they're not nearly as good at divine spellcasting. Knight of the Raven does have the perk of giving Turn Undead, however.
It's tough, but I think I have to give it to the Planar Shepherd. Dweomerkeeper is more flexible in its abuse (PS is limited to 1 plane), but in raw power I feel like the PS is ahead.
+1
Sure you choose the Dal Quor plane and use the Planar Bubble class feature and take advantage of the time differential but the Quori forms SUCK (there are like 3 outsiders native to the plane and their stats and abilities blow).
Compare this to persistent supernatural spell-->Shapechange. You can shapechange into ANY non unique creature (can't exceed your HD). The only thing you lose out on is the spell-likes, you get everything else. Sure the druid can just cast Shapechange but the beauty of this is that it's undispellable, an Incanatrix can't seize the spell, etc....
The supernatural spell shapechanged Dweomerkeeper can become a Zodar, Concordant Killer, Golem (varies), Modron, etc.. without fear of having his spell stolen or dispelled. These creatures don't exist on any of the planes in Eberron (that I know of).
The -1 level to all metamagic is the icing on the cake with the Dweomerkeeper.
In a non-Eberron cosmology, there's no end to the brokenness of Planar Shepherd.
(Incidentially in my nothing-held-back RL game the gestalt Druid-Planar Shepherd / saint monk still hasn't quite hit his stride; it's the pixie that owns conbat right now - but that will change when he gets a few more levels under his belt)
Honorable mention to the Ruby Knight Windicator because of the heavy abuse of turning attempts.
I really don't feel like Dweomerkeeper can compete with a free Twinned Maximized Time Stop with no action restrictions every round.
Pardon?
Dweomerkeeper +1
10 straight levels of it gets you Steal SLA, which is one of the most abusive abilities in the game. One of my favorite builds is factotum1/duskblade4/ur-priest10/abjurantchampion5.
There are plenty of ur-theruge builds that abuse the Ur-priest's condensed casting: wizard5/minbender1/urpriest2/mystictheurge8/PrC4, bard7/mindbender1/urpriest2/sublimechord2/MT8, warlock9/ur-priest2/eldritchtheurge9, and more.
In a non-Eberron cosmology, there's no end to the brokenness of Planar Shepherd.
But isn't the Planar Sheperd an Eberron only PrC (like Bone Knight, Thief of Life, etc...). And even then you are still limited to magical beasts, elementals and outsiders from one plane and those can't exceed your HD.
You still wouldn't be able wildshape into Modrons unless you chose Mechanus, demons unless you chose the Abyss, undead unless you chose whatever plane undead are from, etc..
The supernatural shapechanged Dweomerkeeper doesn't have that limitation. That's just how powerful the shapechange spell is.
But isn't the Planar Sheperd an Eberron only PrC (like Bone Knight, Thief of Life, etc...). And even then you are still limited to magical beasts, elementals and outsiders from one plane and those can't exceed your HD.
You still wouldn't be able wildshape into Modrons unless you chose Mechanus, demons unless you chose the Abyss, undead unless you chose whatever plane undead are from, etc..
The supernatural shapechanged Dweomerkeeper doesn't have that limitation. That's just how powerful the shapechange spell is.
Ok but it doesn't give you spellcasting and SLAs...
Ok but it doesn't give you spellcasting and SLAs...
Actually it does give you spellcasting, ever since CustServ said spellcasting was an EX ability (which you get as well as SU with shapechange). Losing SLAs sucks but I'll gladly take the versatility of an undispellable Shapechange over the limited shapes available to a Planar Sheperd.
Add in "Initiate of Mystra" like Tweedledope said, and well.............
Stuff
This means the cleric needs:
1) Shapechange on it's list- Probably via a domain staff
2) DMM: Persist- Eats feats
Druids *don't* have shapechange (metamagic rod of extend + rainbow falls(CM) +7 easy CL boosts from items equals persist at 17) on their list?
Please. Supernatural spell vs outsider WS *and* Planer bubble is the issue.
PS wins hands down.
This means the cleric needs:
1) Shapechange on it's list- Probably via a domain staff
2) DMM: Persist- Eats feats
Druids *don't* have shapechange (metamagic rod of extend + rainbow falls(CM) +7 easy CL boosts from items equals persist at 17) on their list?
Please. Supernatural spell vs outsider WS *and* Planer bubble is the issue.
PS wins hands down.
DK doesn't have to spend XP for shapechange... or wishes, for that matter. PS does... unless you can WS into a form with Wish as a SLA.
I really don't feel like Dweomerkeeper can compete with a free Twinned Maximized Time Stop with no action restrictions every round.
Are you speaking of the bubble?
This means the cleric needs:
1) Shapechange on it's list- Probably via a domain staff
Why is this a problem? Clerics can choose two domains at level 1, you can just have a cleric of Set choose Magic and Skalykind domains setting you up for Dweomerkeeper and giving you the Shapechange spell. Or you can do this sans deity.
2) DMM: Persist- Eats feats
Druids *don't* have shapechange (metamagic rod of extend + rainbow falls(CM) +7 easy CL boosts from items equals persist at 17) on their list?
Sure they do, what happens when a disjunction or a greater dispel magic by a dispel specialist like Iot7FV/Master Specialist :Abjurer comes along? It's all gone. The Dweomerkeeper wouldn't be fazed at all.
Please. Supernatural spell vs outsider WS *and* Planer bubble is the issue.
Exactly! If you choose Dal Qour you're stuck with crap for your Planar Sheperd wildshape. If you choose the "angel" plane (forgot its' name) you get the Planetar shape but not the Quori planar bubble ability that gives you the 10:1 advantage in time. It's a trade-off. The supernatural spell ability of the Dweomerkeeper and the -1 to all metamagics ability isn't hindered like that.
PS wins hands down.
I disagree but then again I'm new to this optimization stuff.
DK doesn't have to spend XP for shapechange... or wishes, for that matter. PS does... unless you can WS into a form with Wish as a SLA.
Reread shapechange. Specifically the components. Wish XP-free is easy (titan, solar, etc)
PS - full casting
What're we getting at? Super druid v super cleric?
PS is sick, no doubt, but it does have the limitation of being connected to ONE plane. That's harsh. Dwk does not have that limitation.
In pure power, it's debatable about which is better, but in versatility, Dwk owns.
Steal your brain and now all your abilities belong to me.
Steal your body outside body brain and suddenly we have an infinte loop where you can have unlimited uses of eating other peoples brain and now their abilities belong to me.
Wish as a SLA gets around all the component costs of Wiz/Sorc spells of 8th level and lower, and Planar shephards get access to Wish earlier than Dweomerkeepers (14th level). Time stop on crack without any of the drawbacks (you can affect other creatures), for your whole party? Free high level spellcasting (like spells as a 17th level Cleric in addition to your Druid casting, as early as 14th level)? There also happens to be the fact that you can turn into creatures with templates with Planar shephard. And these are all in addition to all the slightly less broken abilities like regeneration etc.
Aren't we supposed to compare the potential of the prestige classes, and not specific builds? Even if you can build Dweomerkeepers that are stronger than Planar shephards, the amount of truly broken options the Planar shephard as a PrC offers is far, far greater if you ask me. That is real power.
stuff
No, Dweomerkeeper gets 4 uses of Supernatural Spell, thank you very much. You're also forgetting the free spontaneous casting, and the free metamagic...
Also, Dweomerkeeper can be taken without losing a cleric caster level.
Wish as a SLA gets around all the component costs of Wiz/Sorc spells of 8th level and lower, and Planar shephards get access to Wish earlier than Dweomerkeepers (14th level).
That's great and all but you are now officially "married" to your plane (the one with access to genie forms). That means no Dal Quor time difference shenanigans. Or angel forms.
Time stop on crack without any of the drawbacks (you can affect other creatures), for your whole party?
Yup. Now since you are married to the Dal Quor plane, you don't have access to unlimited wishes available to the genies or angel forms. And whatever you do don't get hit with an anti-magic ray (NO SR, NO SAVE), you won't like what happens.
Free high level spellcasting (like spells as a 17th level Cleric in addition to your Druid casting, as early as 14th level)?
Sweet! Now you don't have unlimited wishes or Dal Quor time differential stuff.
That is real power.
That is power, limited but it's power non-the-less. Having the option to cast 4 spells per day as supernatural abilities and reduced cost for metamagics surpasses it.
Pseudonatural anything. Yes, one of the planes has all pseudonatural creatures. Pseudonatural makes the creature into an outsider.
That plain gives ANY Corporeal creature for WS.
1 to 0 time ratio ala far realms.
Druids can get anything corporeal via WS with PS. End of discussion on limitted forms. I need to recheck the time ratio though.
Also, Dweomerkeeper can be taken without losing a cleric caster level.
Most of the rest isn't bad but you confusing me here. Planar Shepherd can be gotten into without losing a CL. It can actually be gotten into at 6th level with out losing a caster level and with out wasting 5 extra skill point to buy Knowledge (The Planes) as a cross class skill. All you have to do is take the Alternate class feature from the Planar Handbook. It gives Knowledge (The Planes) as a Class skill. I am surprized this doesn't come up more often.
No, Dweomerkeeper gets 4 uses of Supernatural Spell, thank you very much. You're also forgetting the free spontaneous casting, and the free metamagic...
Yes, I know it's 4/day, but it's a single ability, even if very strong. The rest of the abilities are nice, but they're just gravy. If Dweomerkeeper wouldn't have Supernatural spell, you'd get laughed at if you'd try to bring it up here.
Hmm, reading the sister thread made me realize something, we're missing a PrC here: Shadowcraft mage works for divine casters also. It takes a little more effort to enter it, but it pays off even more, considering you get a spontaneous access to all Wizard evocation and conjuration (creation and summoning) spells. An Archivist/Shadowcraft mage is in a league of it's own.
Read my last post on the sister thread for why dweomerkeeper is less powerful than PS.
Oh crap, yeah. The class specifically gives you the ability to use any Evo or Con (Cre/Cal) from the SOR/WIZ list...
It goes quite well with DMM: Heighten Spell. :D
You can get in as a cleric with the right domain/feat choices (Shadow domain from Eberron, or Initiate of Cyric feat), or even just by heightening the 2nd level spell Dark Way from the Spell Compendium to 4th level. With DMM: Heighten + Earth Spell, you can get in early (cleric 5/SCM 3), and cast 9th level wizard spells at level 8.
Assuming this cheese is allowed, this comes in 2nd place. I still think Planar Shepard comes in 1st, and Dweomerkeeper 3rd.
1 to 0 time ratio ala far realms.
Yeah according to the PS handbook it's something like 1 minute in Xoriat = 1 hour on the Material Plane. But with such a huge discrepincy between "time zones", what's stopping someone from just TPing away to buff and summon and then come back to fight (by the time 1 round is over in the Planar Bubble I think like minutes will have gone by on the Material Plane)? Or worse yet tping into the Planar Bubble itself?
Druids can get anything corporeal via WS with PS. End of discussion on limitted forms. I need to recheck the time ratio though.
But you are STILL limited to ONLY corporeal forms. Some very interesting (not to mention powerful) incorporeal forms are off limits like Dream Vestiges (incorporeal undead with sick touch attacks and incredible touch AC). Sure you can use Shapechange but you open yourself up to dispels/disjunctions/reavings.
(Su) abilities not being dispellable is not true in Epic anymore. Your (Su) Shapechange is mostly for levels 17-20.
Yeah according to the PS handbook it's something like 1 minute in Xoriat = 1 hour on the Material Plane. But with such a huge discrepincy between "time zones", what's stopping someone from just TPing away to buff and summon and then come back to fight (by the time 1 round is over in the Planar Bubble I think like minutes will have gone by on the Material Plane)? Or worse yet tping into the Planar Bubble itself?
It's not Xoriat that makes that Planar bubble thingie so broken, it's Dal Quor: "for every 10 minutes spent on Dal Quor, 1 minute passes on the material plane". So for every 10 rounds you get when in the bubble, everyone outside it only get one. It does have to be said that maintaining the bubble requires concentration, so unless the Planar shephard has something that lets him avoid using all his standard actions to that, he can't do much himself, and needs allies or summoned creatures to use it to the max.
But you are STILL limited to ONLY corporeal forms. Some very interesting (not to mention powerful) incorporeal forms are off limits like Dream Vestiges (incorporeal undead with sick touch attacks and incredible touch AC). Sure you can use Shapechange but you open yourself up to dispels/disjunctions/reavings.
While that is a big downside, the Planar shephard still has his Wild shape to fall back to, should he get dispelled (Wild shape first, Shapechange only after that). I'd gladly take Wild shape that gives all spell-like abilities and spellcasting abilities of the forms I take, if the only downside is that my Shapechange can be dispelled, myself, as I will still have that Wild shape. Though I haven't played that many high level games, so I don't have that much experience on how big a problem the dispel fests can be.
It's not Xoriat that makes that Planar bubble thingie so broken, it's Dal Quor: "for every 10 minutes spent on Dal Quor, 1 minute passes on the material plane". So for every 10 rounds you get when in the bubble, everyone outside it only get one. It does have to be said that maintaining the bubble requires concentration, so unless the Planar shephard has something that lets him avoid using all his standard actions to that, he can't do much himself, and needs allies or summoned creatures to use it to the max.
That goes back to the initial point, PS can't have everything people are saying it can. You either link yourself to Dal Quor and get the planar bubble time abuse or you link yourself to a plane that has pseudonatural everything, not both. It's a great class, but it does have more limits than people are really acknowledging...
Ur-RKV anyone?
Ahem.
Ur-RKV anyone?
Wait you mean the combo Ur Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator? Isn't that impossible? Ur Priests hate gods and Ruby Knight Vindicator's are dedicated to their gods and temples (BoNS says RKV's revere Wee Jas but the adaption lists some other suitable deities. Doesn't say you can worship a concept or ideal or have no gods at all).
But thanks for mentioning those PrCs.
I think top tier PrCs for divine casters are : Planar Shepherd, Dweomerkeeper, (and amazing that divine casters can even qualify for) Shadowcraft Mage.
Second tier (I'm guessing) would be : Ruby Knight Vindicator, Bone Knight (lot's of insane EX immunities!), and IMHO Church Inquisitor
Honorable mentions IMHO : Talontar Blightlord (plant immunities and disease immunity EX), Thrall of Zuggtmoy (plant and disease immunities EX), Forest Master (plant immunities and stat boosts EX). My reason for these is you only lose at most 2 caster levels but you gain some awesome immunities that function anywhere. They are powerful without being game breaking.
But you are STILL limited to ONLY corporeal forms.
And? That's missing practically nothing. Name me one reason getting incorporeal forms from shapechange at level 14 (the level planer WS comes into play) is a weakness compared to DwK.
And? That's missing practically nothing. Name me one reason getting incorporeal forms from shapechange at level 14 (the level planer WS comes into play) is a weakness compared to DwK.
Especially compared to the 17th level Clerical casting of that Planetar form of yours. Use that to cast Shapechange if you want it so damn much.
Especially compared to the 17th level Clerical casting of that Planetar form of yours. Use that to cast Shapechange if you want it so damn much.
Correction: Pseudonatural Planetar
Even with Planar WS, I'd still take the cheater of mystra :shrug:
Dweomerkeeper is only needed for (Su) AMF. Everything else is just being a cleric. Clerics get NI wealth pretty easily.
Yes they do. Dweomerkeeper's versatility is ideal with DMM. If you take DMM away you may as well take Wildshape away?! We're discussing the PrC in complete builds and debating which has the most versatility. I claim Cheater and its use of Dwk as being incredibly versatile in a multitude of situations.
But that's like saying that Alienist is a strong prestige class for Clerics, as you can get 9th level spells with it. It's not the PrC you get most of your power from. Only a small part of Cheater's versatility (although some of its biggest cheese) come from Dweomerkeeper. To determine what PrC gives you more, you have to compare them in a vacoom.
Correction: Pseudonatural Planetar
no templates with wildshape or shapechange remember
no templates with wildshape or shapechange remember
Actually the class allows templates to be added to make a Creature native to a plane. What all Templates it allows though and if the creatures abilities are all availible is up for debate though.
Actually the class allows templates to be added to make a Creature native to a plane.
I think that's only for magical beasts no? I don't see it for outsiders or elementals.
EDIT :
I actually just double-checked and the text specifically mentions that you can change into magical beasts INCLUDING those that become so because of templates. However no such stipulation is given for the ability to change into outsiders or elementals. Unless I'm missing something you can't wildshape into creatures that become outsiders or elementals because of templates.
To determine what PrC gives you more, you have to compare them in a vacoom.
I think that's a pretty silly position to take. Also, it's vacuum.
I think that's a pretty silly position to take. Also, it's vacuum.
Oops, thanks for cathing that. :embarrass
Well, I do have to agree that a complete vacuum wouldn't work. My point was that we should leave out things that don't really depend on the prestige classes. DMM: Persistent spell and Initiate of Mystra work almost as well with straight Clerics as they do with Dweomerkeepers, so one shouldn't argue that the Cleric based Dweomerkeeper is a stronger PrC than the Druid based Planar shephard because of those things. After all, every Cleric can have them. We should be comparing the things the prestige classes give, not the strengths of the base classes.
We should be comparing the things the prestige classes give, not the strengths of the base classes.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it is very realistic. Prestige classes don't exist in a vacuum. You don't play a Dweomerkeeper. You play a cleric with that PrC. You have to compare characters, with all the feats that synergize best with their PrC and base classes, in order to get an accurate judge of just how powerful characters built with those PrCs can be.
Both SCM and Dweomerkeeper are powerful, but there is nothing that can compare with getting ten rounds of actions per every round your enemy takes. And this isn't even subject to the limitations of Time Stop. These are real rounds. Actions are the most precious commodity in D&D, IMO, so this is totally and insanely game breaking. I can't imagine a DM in a real game ever allowing this. I can imagine them allowing a Dweomerkeeper, even with the free wishes and supernatural AMF. I can even imagine allowing a cleric/SCM with the DMM: Heighten cheese. You can deal with those as a DM. 10:1 action ratio is off the charts, though.
Fine. Then take off natural spell of a druid. With the above information that you cannot take pseudonatural anything, but only creatures that become magical beasts, I still think in versatility alone, Dwk wins.
Looks like I'm still not making my point clear. I'm not saying that we should take all those standard tricks away, we shouldn't base our opinions on them. I think that adding Dweomerkeeper to a standard Cleric build gives less power than adding Planar shephard to a standard Druid build. Clerics already have a lot of cheesy options and broken tricks up to their sleeves, so even if Dweomerkeeper has strong class features, they make a lot smaller impact when added to the Cleric than adding the Planar shephard abilities to a Druid.
Clerics already have things that are broken or at least very near it, including things like Persistent spell + Nightsticks, Initiate of Mystra, Gate, Greater consumptive field, and can get Shapechange and/or Mordenkainen's disjunction with the right domains. What Dweomerkeeper brings to this list ia basically undispellable buffs. Component free spells are accessible through Gate cheese, but Dweomerkeeper makes it a little easier.
Druids have a lot of strong features, too, but they actually don't have access to that much pure cheese. While things like Shapechange, Enhance wild shape and Greenbound are very strong, they're not what you'd call broken. Planar shephard, on the other hand, can add things like free high level spellcasting, free Wishes, time bending planar traits, and free spell like abilities, even if not all of them in the same build.
In a single build, due to the supernatural spell, reduced metamagic, and mantle of spells a dweomerkeeper is, IMO, more versatile than a build that can do 1 of the following: free wishes, time bending, free SLA. YMMV
That gives us 20th level Cleric casting, Wish as an SLA, a lot of other SLAs and time bending. Booya!
And that was just Syrania. How about Fernia then? All demons and devils. They have astounding SLAs, phenomenal physical stats and great special abilities. Too bad the abilities of the Planar Shepherd don't end here. That was just outsider wild shape we've been dealing here.
Planar bubble alone is one of the most game breaking abilities in the entire system we know as D&D 3.5e. You can get some mild benefits such as flying, 20d6 fire damage, freely empowered spells, but you can go as high as getting 10 times the amount of actions as your foes and there's a plane that has even wilder time flow. Who needs Quicken spell?
After dealing with those two abilities, it's pretty useless to even mention how you become an outsider, get Plane shift as an SLA, full wild shape and spellcasting progression and some even more negligible abilities that no-one even bothers to remember.
What do you mean one of the following? Wildshape into a Planetar, bend time with Time stop and use something like Gate for semi-free Wishes.
But by default, a domain with Time Stop isn't available to Planetar's. You are at the mercy of the DM letting you wildshape into a Planetar who's deity provides appropriate domain.
And also, doesn't a Gated creature have a mind of it's own? What's to say it won't attempt to twist the Wish into something you didn't expect.
The Dweomerkeeper isn't at the mercy of the DM or the Gated creature.
Should Skin of Kaletor be allowed, you can get Wish as an SLA by being a Solar.
What exactly is this Skin? You can't wildshape or shapechange into a creature with more HD than you have and Solar's have 22HD. How would you wildshape/shapechange into one?
And even then, they can only Wish ONCE per day.
But by default, a domain with Time Stop isn't available to Planetar's. You are at the mercy of the DM letting you wildshape into a Planetar who's deity provides appropriate domain.
Wrong. It depends on the domains of YOUR deity. Glittergold has Trickery domain, so just go for that win like you mean it.
And also, doesn't a Gated creature have a mind of it's own? What's to say it won't attempt to twist the Wish into something you didn't expect.
In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level.
You control it, so it doesn't matter what it wants.
The Dweomerkeeper isn't at the mercy of the DM or the Gated creature.
Every single character is at the mercy of the DM. Planar Shepherd's abilities, like I elaborated above, are depend on the DM's discretion just as much as the abilities of the Dweomerkeeper.
What exactly is this Skin? You can't wildshape or shapechange into a creature with more HD than you have and Solar's have 22HD. How would you wildshape/shapechange into one?
A horrendous Dragon magazine items. +4 virtual wild shape levels...
And even then, they can only Wish ONCE per day.
And you can wild shape into one, what, three times a day? That's three Wishes and getting extra wild shapes is not that difficult.
The truth is, Planar Shepherd is to Dweomerkeeper what Cleric is to a Commoner.
So four spells that converted into supernatural abilities daily is better than getting a completely new set of spellcasting including domain spells?
Yes it is, since you can get spellcasting by shapechanging into said creature.
Throw in constant True seeing, Detect evil, Detect snares and pits, See invisibility, Discern lies, a bunch of at will SLAs, regeneration and such. I can tell you, Supernatural spell does not compare to those.
Actually yes it does, since you can get most of the good stuff just by casting a supernatural spell --->bastion of good.
How about Fernia then? All demons and devils. They have astounding SLAs, phenomenal physical stats and great special abilities. Too bad the abilities of the Planar Shepherd don't end here. That was just outsider wild shape we've been dealing here.
Now you just lost access to cleric spell casting by the PS wildshape, you lost the time shenanigans of Dal Quor, and you are forced into an alignment (non-good) since you can't choose a plane with an alignment who conflicts with an aspect of your alignment.
Planar bubble alone is one of the most game breaking abilities in the entire system we know as D&D 3.5e. You can get some mild benefits such as flying, 20d6 fire damage, freely empowered spells, but you can go as high as getting 10 times the amount of actions as your foes and there's a plane that has even wilder time flow. Who needs Quicken spell?
And that power comes at a price. Only two planes do that funky time thing and both those planes natives suck for wildshaping purposes.
So four spells that converted into supernatural abilities daily is better than getting a completely new set of spellcasting including domain spells? Throw in constant True seeing, Detect evil, Detect snares and pits, See invisibility, Discern lies, a bunch of at will SLAs, regeneration and such. I can tell you, Supernatural spell does not compare to those.
And that was just Syrania. How about Fernia then? All demons and devils. They have astounding SLAs, phenomenal physical stats and great special abilities. Too bad the abilities of the Planar Shepherd don't end here. That was just outsider wild shape we've been dealing here.
Planar bubble alone is one of the most game breaking abilities in the entire system we know as D&D 3.5e. You can get some mild benefits such as flying, 20d6 fire damage, freely empowered spells, but you can go as high as getting 10 times the amount of actions as your foes and there's a plane that has even wilder time flow. Who needs Quicken spell?
After dealing with those two abilities, it's pretty useless to even mention how you become an outsider, get Plane shift as an SLA, full wild shape and spellcasting progression and some even more negligible abilities that no-one even bothers to remember.
Tshern. What? That's my exact point. A Planar shepherd is strong. But one build does not get ALL of that. It only gets what it chooses. A dweomerkeeper gets ALL of what it wants. Also, on that note, I'll take Cleric casting, level 20 times 2 over druid 20/cleric 20. That's my opinion, though. I dont like druid casting.
What you're referring to is using wildshape as a minor shapechange. Nice. That's good, no doubt. But Shapechange beats it in versatility. So if we're breaking down shapechange, both can do it, and that's not the point.
If you're of the belief that actions are the greatest commodity, then yes, Planar Bubble is the strongest ability in the game. Strength =/= Versatility. That's my point.
A horrendous Dragon magazine items. +4 virtual wild shape levels...
Does it allow you to go over your HD for the purpose of wildshaping?
And you can wild shape into one, what, three times a day? That's three Wishes and getting extra wild shapes is not that difficult.
That's still only for the 22HD Solar, which unless that Skin item allows you to wildshape above your HD doesn't even come into play.
The truth is, Planar Shepherd is to Dweomerkeeper what Cleric is to a Commoner.
In your opinion. Myself and some other posters on this thread disagree.
Wrong, very wrong. Pit fiends can do it just as well.
I am still waiting for your evidence. Free Wishes is easy, what else does the Dweomerkeeper bring to the table? To limit our search down a bit, does it have any abilities that are comparable to Dal Quor's Planar bubble?
Wrong, very wrong. Pit fiends can do it just as well.
Once per year and at caster level 18?
I am still waiting for your evidence. Free Wishes is easy, what else does the Dweomerkeeper bring to the table? To limit our search down a bit, does it have any abilities that are comparable to Dal Quor's Planar bubble?
Yes it's supernatural spell ability! For the love of Cyric, that Dal Quor Planar bubble ability means YOU NEVER can use the PS wildshape to change into a Planetar, a Pit Fiend, or a Titan. You must now rely on your regular druid spell casting to shapechange into said creature. You now open yourself up to reaving dispels (meaning the person casting it OWNS any spell they dispel from you) and disjunctions (no caster level check dispel magic).
The supernatural spell ability means nothing and no one can remove your buffs. Not an Iot7FV, not an Incanatrix, not a high level mage disjunctioning or reaving your spells. NO ONE.
Once per year and at caster level 18?
A Pit fiend can do it once a year. That doesn't mean you cannot use it just as many times as you care to wild shape into one of those.
Yes it's supernatural spell ability! For the love of Cyric, that Dal Quor Planar bubble ability means YOU NEVER can use the PS wildshape to change into a Planetar, a Pit Fiend, or a Titan.
Even if you just pick up Dal Quor, you get amazing Quori forms. And Supernatural spell still doesn't compared to the sheer utility and party buffing given by that specific Planar bubble. Throwing supernatural spells doesn't help you when the Druid in front of you does 10 full attacks with his animal companion.
The supernatural spell ability means nothing and no one can remove your buffs. Not an Iot7FV, not an Incanatrix, not a high level mage disjunctioning or reaving your spells. NO ONE.
All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.
Supernatural abilities are magical effects. Bye bye buffs.
Even if you just pick up Dal Quor, you get amazing Quori forms.
Really? What's so amazing about the Quori forms? I don't have the book but my friend has lot's of Eberron material and those forms never stuck out to me. I'll check later.
And Supernatural spell still doesn't compared to the sheer utility and party buffing given by that specific Planar bubble. Throwing supernatural spells doesn't help you when the Druid in front of you does 10 full attacks with his animal companion.
Actually yes it does, supernatural shapechange : Zodar. You better hope those 10 attacks are doing blunt damage.
Supernatural abilities are magical effects. Bye bye buffs.
See now that's up for dispute, the text says :
All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.
The very next sentence says :
That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item.
There's nothing there that mentions supernatural abilities. Its clear the "magical effects" mention are "spells and spell-like abilities".
Actually yes it does, supernatural shapechange : Zodar. You better hope those 10 attacks are doing blunt damage.
Sure, then they do bludgeoning damage. I can't see the problem here.
Good thing that you quoted that. I'll give you a chance to find the mistake in your argument.
Correct answer
Spell-like EFFECTS, not abilities.
See? They are magical effects, so Disjunction takes 'em out. To enforce my point even further, I dare you to find 'spell-like ability' in Disjunction's description. There are none.
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
See? They are magical effects, so Disjunction takes 'em out. To enforce my point even further, I dare you to find 'spell-like ability' in Disjunction's description. There are none.
Good thing that you quoted that. I'll give you a chance to find the mistake in your argument.
Are you reading the same text I am?
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
And in the text of mage's disjunction :
That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)
Can anyone confirm or deny this? That mage's disjunction actually dispels supernatural effects?
The text CLEARLY states spells and spell-like effects AS A DISPEL MAGIC it's right there in black and white. Mage's Disjunction has no effect over supernatural abilities.
The PS also gains from Disjunction not working on (Su) effects since Planar Bubble is (Su).
You're overestimating the power of Disjunction: it's a powerful but blunt tool - there are nifty items like the Ring of Spell-Battle (redirect the effect of a spell) that make using Disjunction dangerous. And one has to optimize his dispelling for Reaving Dispel to actually work.
Dwk is more versatile than a Dal Quor-based PS, but Planar Bubble just wins (we can always use Shapechange for free Wishes - who cares). A syrania-based ps has more versatility but its power is less unbounded.
*shrug*
The PS also gains from Disjunction not working on (Su) effects since Planar Bubble is (Su).
I realize that. I was just pointing out that if you went with Dal Quor for the time exploit your wildshape would suck (and vise versa if you went for another plane to get better shapes, your bubble would suck), sure you could use the Shapechange spell to get the forms you want but it would be subject to Disjunctions/Dispels/Reaving/etc...
The Dweomerkeeper doesn't have that problem. For example imagine a Dweomerkeeper with the following 4 supernatural spells :
1) Shapechange -->Concordant Killer (immune fire/cold/acid/elec/petrification/poison, DR 10/--, True Seeing, and a bunch of nice SU abilities, very respectable physical stats). This creature doesn't exist on any plane in Eberron so you couldn't use your PS wildshape to become it (you would need to rely on the dispelable shapechange spell).
2) Magic Circle against X -- immune to charm/compulsion/possesion and summoned creatures can't melee you
3) Death Ward - immune death spells, death effects, negative energy, energy drain
4) Divine Power - BAB as a fighter your character level +6 to strength and bonus HP
ALL this undispellable. An Incantatrix can't do jack to it. Master Specialists/Iot7FV can't reave it. A high level mage can't Disjunction it.
You're overestimating the power of Disjunction: it's a powerful but blunt tool - there are nifty items like the Ring of Spell-Battle (redirect the effect of a spell) that make using Disjunction dangerous.
Isn't Disjunction an AoE spell? Unless the ring can redirect an AoE spell(that's not even directed right at you), the Disjunction is unaffected by it. I mean it's a 40ft burst.
And one has to optimize his dispelling for Reaving Dispel to actually work.
It can't be that hard, there's a counter-spell/dispel guide on this forum that showed how even the lowly dispel magic could be used to automatically dispel a spell cast by a level 21 caster.
....Planar Bubble just wins ....
This actually brings up something interesting. How is the PS planar bubble different from the spell of the same name in Spell Compendium (aside from one being a SU ability and the other being a spell)?
I realize that. I was just pointing out that if you went with Dal Quor for the time exploit your wildshape would suck (and vise versa if you went for another plane to get better shapes, your bubble would suck), sure you could use the Shapechange spell to get the forms you want but it would be subject to Disjunctions/Dispels/Reaving/etc...
[...]
ALL this undispellable. An Incantatrix can't do jack to it. Master Specialists/Iot7FV can't reave it. A high level mage can't Disjunction it.
Well, we haven't cleared the Disjunction vs (Su) problem, but let's go with your interpretation for now. I don't see any immunity to force or sonic (they can be acquired, but they wouldn't be Su), so I don't see why an Incantatrix would be that bothered. The Io7V is more about defense - you would still have trouble reaching her.
Also, as soon as you reach epic, (Su) abilities can be dispelled.
Isn't Disjunction an AoE spell? Unless the ring can redirect an AoE spell(that's not even directed right at you), the Disjunction is unaffected by it. I mean it's a 40ft burst.
The ring does work on AoE spells. Any spell for that matter - I wonder if it would work on a Supernatural Spell being cast nearby (if you can persist it, it has to have some qualities of a spell still).
It can't be that hard, there's a counter-spell/dispel guide on this forum that showed how even the lowly dispel magic could be used to automatically dispel a spell cast by a level 21 caster.
I happen to be the author of this guide. ;)
Dispelling can be extremely powerful but let's face it not everybody will be an uber-dispeller.
It's not that hard to find builds that hose your Dweomerkeeper too (Lockdown+AMF for instance - the druid may be able to sacrifice her companion to escape).
I don't deny that your build has powerful defense and offense, but except when facing a dispeller it's just like a persisting cleric.
This actually brings up something interesting. How is the PS planar bubble different from the spell of the same name in Spell Compendium (aside from one being a SU ability and the other being a spell)?
I don't know if it works - but I thought you didn't like Quori shapes ? The druid could have the bubble and be in any shape thanks to Shapechange.
But what you're missing IMO is that the Dwk, even though it's very powerful by itself, cannot rival the PS bringing all those extra actions to his party (in a 20' radius). And it gets this ability 1/day at level 10. Like people said: you can always deal with a Dwk. Dealing with 10:1 actions is a whole lot harder.
Well, we haven't cleared the Disjunction vs (Su) problem, but let's go with your interpretation for now.
The text in Disjunction is pretty clear on what it meant by "magical effects" the very next sentence states "spells and spell-likes" and "as dispel magic" there is NO mention of supernatural abilities anywhere in the text.
Can anyone contact CustServ?
I don't see any immunity to force or sonic (they can be acquired, but they wouldn't be Su), so I don't see why an Incantatrix would be that bothered. The Io7V is more about defense - you would still have trouble reaching her.
The whole point of this was they can't take control or dispel (the Iot7FV's with some levels in Master Specialist : Abjuration has a nasty bonus on it's dispel checks).
And as to reaching the Iot7FV's, the Dweomerkeeeper with supernatural Shapechage---> Concordant Killer can walk right through all 7 veils (having TOTAL immunity to the first 5 colors. The only threat would be the 6th veil will save or go insane but that's not exactly hard seeing as how will saves are no problem for Dweomerkeerps, it's their "good" save).
Also, as soon as you reach epic, (Su) abilities can be dispelled.
True but this is a problem for everyone even the PS.
The ring does work on AoE spells. Any spell for that matter - I wonder if it would work on a Supernatural Spell being cast nearby (if you can persist it, it has to have some qualities of a spell still).
I just saw this item today, the item description says "as dispel magic" not "greater dispel magic" but "dispel magic". Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't dispel magic have a CL limit of +10? How would you win a caster level check vs a full caster being limited to +10? And it's only once a day. And the Disjunction even if it were reflected back on the Dweomerkeeper wouldn't dispel it's supernatural buffs.
I happen to be the author of this guide. ;)
Congrats, it was most excellent!
It's not that hard to find builds that hose your Dweomerkeeper too (Lockdown+AMF for instance - the druid may be able to sacrifice her companion to escape).
And an Initiate of Mystra Dweomerkeeper wouldn't be fazed. I realize this isn't a feature of the Dweomerkeeper class, but let's face it, what cleric of mystra doesn't take this feat?
I don't deny that your build has powerful defense and offense, but except when facing a dispeller it's just like a persisting cleric.
With the exception that the cleric's buffs can be taken clean off, while the Dweomerkeeper's 4 supernatural spells would survive.
I don't know if it works - but I thought you didn't like Quori shapes ? The druid could have the bubble and be in any shape thanks to Shapechange.
Yes I'm not arguing this, all I'm saying is that at higher levels that shapechange spell can be taken down easily. What I've been trying to say is : If you pick a plane like Dal Quor you have crap wildshpes with your PS class feature. If you pick a plane like Fernia for sweet wildshape forms with your PS class feature you get a crappy Planar Bubble. That's it. That's all I'm saying. I will be the first to tell you that the Planar Shepherd class is nothing short of insanely awesome. I (and some others) merely said Dweomerkeeper is awesome as well and more versatile (in our opinion) since :
a) Dweomerkeeper isn't limited to the Eberron setting
b) It's class abilities always work (unlike the Planar Shepherd trade-off, ie bubble vs shapes).
But what you're missing IMO is that the Dwk, even though it's very powerful by itself, cannot rival the PS bringing all those extra actions to his party (in a 20' radius). And it gets this ability 1/day at level 10. Like people said: you can always deal with a Dwk. Dealing with 10:1 actions is a whole lot harder.
It can't be that hard, another way to hose someone (anyone even Dweomerkeeper) would be anti-magic ray. There we go : no supernatural spell, no wildshape, no planar bubble, nothing.
And what about the "Planar Bubble" spell in Spell Compendium, it says it emulates a creatures native plane . I'm sure an optimizer can come up with a way to exploit this.
I am going to be different and say Illithid Savant.
Steal your brain and now all your abilities belong to me.
Steal your body outside body brain and suddenly we have an infinte loop where you can have unlimited uses of eating other peoples brain and now their abilities belong to me.
i agree why choose between dk and PS when u can eat both?:D
Can anyone contact CustServ?
You can. ;) I don't care about it enough to bother.
And as to reaching the Iot7FV's, the Dweomerkeeeper with supernatural Shapechage---> Concordant Killer can walk right through all 7 veils (having TOTAL immunity to the first 5 colors. The only threat would be the 6th veil will save or go insane but that's not exactly hard seeing as how will saves are no problem for Dweomerkeerps, it's their "good" save).
It's better to leave the Io7V out of the debate, since the 7th veil effect has been debated to death without resolution (does it destroy even attended items and effects ? ...).
True but this is a problem for everyone even the PS.
But the PS and his party will get 10 rounds of action before the Bubble gets dispelled.
I just saw this item today, the item description says "as dispel magic" not "greater dispel magic" but "dispel magic". Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't dispel magic have a CL limit of +10? How would you win a caster level check vs a full caster being limited to +10? And it's only once a day. And the Disjunction even if it were reflected back on the Dweomerkeeper wouldn't dispel it's supernatural buffs.
Re-read the "or change the target" part. Mmh, now that I see it the rewrite is not very clear - the CA version made it clear it didn't have to be a targeted spell.
And an Initiate of Mystra Dweomerkeeper wouldn't be fazed. I realize this isn't a feature of the Dweomerkeeper class, but let's face it, what cleric of mystra doesn't take this feat?
Do note that Initiate of Mystra says nothing about bringing spells into an AMF. You have to walk around with a persisted AMF for the combo to work.
With the exception that the cleric's buffs can be taken clean off, while the Dweomerkeeper's 4 supernatural spells would survive.
Re-read what I said: if you are not facing a dispeller, it makes no difference at all. How many times per adventure do you encounter a dispeller ?
a) Dweomerkeeper isn't limited to the Eberron setting
b) It's class abilities always work (unlike the Planar Shepherd trade-off, ie bubble vs shapes).
You can adapt the PS to other settings. If you argue from a practical point of view, I'll counter that Dwk is in a Web Enhancement and so is less likely to pass muster. ;)
I haven't been defending a multi-faceted PS: I'm saying that the 10:1 actions 1+ time per day from level 10 on are enough to make the PS the best PrC.
It can't be that hard, another way to hose someone (anyone even Dweomerkeeper) would be anti-magic ray. There we go : no supernatural spell, no wildshape, no planar bubble, nothing.
The ray (SC) allows a Will save : neither your cleric nor my druid have any trouble with it.
And what about the "Planar Bubble" spell in Spell Compendium, it says it emulates a creatures native plane . I'm sure an optimizer can come up with a way to exploit this.
For a Shadowcraft Mage with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, it means auto-maximization of the shadow illusions...
You can. ;) I don't care about it enough to bother.
Give me a day or two I have to figure out how best to word the question so it doesn't get some ambiguous reply from them. P.S. how exactly do I contact them? I've seen "CustServ" mentioned lot's on this board, I just never seen a link to them.
It's better to leave the Io7V out of the debate, since the 7th veil effect has been debated to death without resolution (does it destroy even attended items and effects ? ...).
True, True. But even then you get a will save to avoid the effect. Total immunity to the first 5 veils (in Concordant Killer form) and will save to avoid the effects of the last 2 (not that big a problem for Dweomerkeepers).
But the PS and his party will get 10 rounds of action before the Bubble gets dispelled.
True, but at those levels I'm sure someone has an epic something or other that would mimic the effects of the planar bubble.
Re-read the "or change the target" part. Mmh, now that I see it the rewrite is not very clear - the CA version made it clear it didn't have to be a targeted spell.
Even if it didn't have to be a trageted spell, you are still counterspelling "as a dispel magic" not greater dispel magic and that has a CL limit of +10.
Do note that Initiate of Mystra says nothing about bringing spells into an AMF. You have to walk around with a persisted AMF for the combo to work.
Even if that's the case, that's not exactly that problematic is it? Total immunity to all spells (the CK is immune to fire/cold/elec/acid/poison/petrification) except instant Conjuration sonic and force effects is pretty awesome. Especially since that form (Concordant Killer) can fly, has respectable physical stats, and has good DR.
Re-read what I said: if you are not facing a dispeller, it makes no difference at all. How many times per adventure do you encounter a dispeller ?
Depends on the DM though. I mean if you are a Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10 and he has you up against stone giants with 5 or so levels in fighter......
You can adapt the PS to other settings. If you argue from a practical point of view, I'll counter that Dwk is in a Web Enhancement and so is less likely to pass muster. ;)
Again you are right. But why would a web enhancement not pass muster? It's freely available to anyone (you don't have to go out and purchase another rulebook to access it).
I haven't been defending a multi-faceted PS: I'm saying that the 10:1 actions 1+ time per day from level 10 on are enough to make the PS the best PrC.
That's really all the PS has isn't it? The rest of it's abilities are really lackluster since you can shapechange into MORE forms than the PS wildshape ability losing only the spell-likes. If you don't pick Dal Quor it's rather meh. I don't know but I think someone can argue that the Planar Bubble spell from Spell Compendium grants the "time" of the selected plain too (I mean it grants everything else).
The ray (SC) allows a Will save : neither your cleric nor my druid have any trouble with it.
I'm looking at the Spell Compendium version, it says "Will negates (Object)". The will save is only for objects. Neither a cleric or anyone else would stand a chance against it (unless they had the Initiate of Mystra feat).
Omen don't get me wrong :
a) the Planar Shepherd class is stupid awesome compared to 90% of the PrC's out there
b) IF the Dweomerkeeper's ability to turn a spell into a supernatural effect can indeed by removed by a disjunction, then the Dweomerkeeper blows chunks and I'll be the first to admit it.
True, but at those levels I'm sure someone has an epic something or other that would mimic the effects of the planar bubble.
You face a lot of epic enemies at level 10?
You face a lot of epic enemies at level 10?
Doesn't everyone? ;)
That is a very good point, though. At level 10, even if it's only 1/day. Granting 10 actions to your allies is nice. The fact that you have to be concentrating those 10 actions is less useful for you.
So looking at it this way, Dweomerkeeper is very powerful self sufficiently, while Planar Shepherd rocks in a party. That of course assumes the Dal Quor plane...
Additionally, you must hit a wisdom score of 28 by level 14 to get a single 9th level spell as an Ur-Priest.
You face a lot of epic enemies at level 10?
No we were talking about epic levels and spells. He mentioned that at epic levels you CAN get a way to dispel SU abilities, I merely mentioned since we're talking about epic levels the Planar Bubble ability would also be easily replicated since you already have a 7th level spell "Planar Bubble" that does almost everything (if not everything) the Planar Bubble ability of the PS does.
Depends on the DM though. I mean if you are a Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10 and he has you up against stone giants with 5 or so levels in fighter......
Say your DM has a dedicated dispeller in 1 encounter out of 5 (damn high if you ask me). In the 4 other encounters, what has the Dwk got that makes him special ? Spontaneous spells: nice. Metamagic: hardly as useful in combat as it is for arcane casters, since the important spells are your persisted buffs. This really pales in comparison to PS.
That's really all the PS has isn't it? The rest of it's abilities are really lackluster since you can shapechange into MORE forms than the PS wildshape ability losing only the spell-likes. If you don't pick Dal Quor it's rather meh. I don't know but I think someone can argue that the Planar Bubble spell from Spell Compendium grants the "time" of the selected plain too (I mean it grants everything else).
I don't know, I'd like getting all those free SLAs (with Syrania for instance), but yes, it's Dal Quor and the extra actions that take the cake.
I'm looking at the Spell Compendium version, it says "Will negates (Object)". The will save is only for objects. Neither a cleric or anyone else would stand a chance against it (unless they had the Initiate of Mystra feat).
Take a look at Disintegrate : wow, you just discovered it doesn't allow a save for creatures ! :P
(object) means that it can be applied to objects, not that it doesn't apply to creatures.
Omen don't get me wrong :
a) the Planar Shepherd class is stupid awesome compared to 90% of the PrC's out there
b) IF the Dweomerkeeper's ability to turn a spell into a supernatural effect can indeed by removed by a disjunction, then the Dweomerkeeper blows chunks and I'll be the first to admit it.
Dwk is excellent, PS is better.
Now that I think about it, how does your Cleric of Mystra get Shapechange ? I doubt she's got the Animal domain.
Ur-Priest makes you lose the domains you had, so you can't qualify for Dwk. I guess you may be able to do with Contemplative and the dead god adaptation, but that's a big stretch.
Say your DM has a dedicated dispeller in 1 encounter out of 5 (damn high if you ask me). In the 4 other encounters, what has the Dwk got that makes him special ? Spontaneous spells: nice. Metamagic: hardly as useful in combat as it is for arcane casters, since the important spells are your persisted buffs. This really pales in comparison to PS.
If you didn't choose Dal Quor (and assuming you can't get the exact same effect using the Planar Bubble spell from Spell Compendium) how exactly does Dweomerkeeper pale in comparison to PS? What the planetar form? The balor form? The pit fiend form? You could just supernatural spell either draconic polymorph or shapechange and outdo him in cool forms.
I don't know, I'd like getting all those free SLAs (with Syrania for instance), but yes, it's Dal Quor and the extra actions that take the cake.
Actually it's only Dal Quor's "fast time" ability that most Planar Shepherd fans keep mentioning that makes this PrC excellent. All of the free SLAs from the Planetar form don't really amount to much. I mean out of all the SLAs the only one that really stands out is dispel magic and even then it's only dispel magic not greater dispel magic.
Take a look at Disintegrate : wow, you just discovered it doesn't allow a save for creatures ! :P
(object) means that it can be applied to objects, not that it doesn't apply to creatures.
You are right, I just double checked the text and it says the target is encased in an anti-magic field if it fails it's will save.
Dwk is excellent, PS is better.
PS is better IMHO if and only if :
disjunction removes supernatural effects
and actually worse if :
the Planar Bubble spell mimics all the traits of a plane (the spell description doesn't list any planar traits that aren't emulated)
Now that I think about it, how does your Cleric of Mystra get Shapechange ? I doubt she's got the Animal domain.
The cleric of Mystra with the Initiate of Mystra feat could get by using a ghetto version of Shapechange, Draconic Polymorph. 20HD limit on forms, +8 to strength and +2 to con to any form assumed and it's not an enhancement bonus so it stacks with the +6 to strength from Divine Power. For giggles a Cheater of Mystra Dweomerkeeper would supernatural persist a Draconic Polymorph (greater dusk giant) and divine power (BAB as fighter your character level and a strength score of 62 (48 greater dusk giant + 8 draconic polymorph + 6 divine power) while encased in an anti-magic field and just go nuts smashing stuff into bits.
Though if you play in post-Spellplague FR, you could go for the dead Mystra !
If you didn't choose Dal Quor (and assuming you can't get the exact same effect using the Planar Bubble spell from Spell Compendium) how exactly does Dweomerkeeper pale in comparison to PS? What the planetar form? The balor form? The pit fiend form? You could just supernatural spell either draconic polymorph or shapechange and outdo him in cool forms.
I was still talking about the Dal Quor PS at that point.
Actually it's only Dal Quor's "fast time" ability that most Planar Shepherd fans keep mentioning that makes this PrC excellent. All of the free SLAs from the Planetar form don't really amount to much. I mean out of all the SLAs the only one that really stands out is dispel magic and even then it's only dispel magic not greater dispel magic.
From the Planetar: power word stun, raise dead, greater restoration, waves of exhaustion, true seeing
From the Astral Deva: at will holy word and planeshift ; heal 1/day.
That's fairly good IMO - though I agree it's not clearly better than the Dwk.
With the right items (Wildshape amulet from MoF + the item set in CC), the Solar is accessible too (at level 17 !!).
The cleric of Mystra with the Initiate of Mystra feat could get by using a ghetto version of Shapechange, Draconic Polymorph. 20HD limit on forms, +8 to strength and +2 to con to any form assumed and it's not an enhancement bonus so it stacks with the +6 to strength from Divine Power. For giggles a Cheater of Mystra Dweomerkeeper would supernatural persist a Draconic Polymorph (greater dusk giant) and divine power (BAB as fighter your character level and a strength score of 62 (48 greater dusk giant + 8 draconic polymorph + 6 divine power) while encased in an anti-magic field and just go nuts smashing stuff into bits.
Far from me the idea of denying the power of the Cheater of Mystra, but you have to admit the Dwk doesn't bring as much to the build as Initiate of Mystra and DMM(Persist) : a straight Cleric would be fairly similar.
And 10:1 actions are still better than your Hulk.
It was fun, but I've lost enought time in this thread: ciao !
I was still talking about the Dal Quor PS at that point.
And..
From the Planetar: ....
From the Astral Deva: ....
See that? That's mutually exclusive. That's what most of us saying the Dweomerkeeper is the more versatile/better/etc... class mean. You cannot have both the angel wildshape AND the Dal Quor time bubble. It's not possible.
You can however have the Dweomerkeeper supernatural spell on any spell you cast, you can have it's spontaneous spells, you can have it's metamagic reduction all at the same time.
With the right items (Wildshape amulet from MoF + the item set in CC), the Solar is accessible too (at level 17 !!).
I've been wrong before and admitted it but I'm finding it hard to believe that there's a group of items that allow you to wildshape into forms that far exceed your HD. The solar has 22HD at level 17 you'd have well 17HD.
Far from me the idea of denying the power of the Cheater of Mystra, but you have to admit the Dwk doesn't bring as much to the build as Initiate of Mystra and DMM(Persist) : a straight Cleric would be fairly similar.
True but don't underestimate the power of the reduction to metamagic, 4 persistant supernatural spells would cost a total of 4 less turn/rebuke attempts with a Dweomerkeeper than with a straight cleric. And in a game where the DM has had enough of "nightstick" abuse this can really be of help.
And 10:1 actions are still better than your Hulk.
Basically complete immunity to all direct damage spells the druid/PS can cast, summoned creatures cannot enter to the field to attack (and even if they did nothing SNA 1-IX has could survive more than one round with a creature with 62 str, with a huge two-handed weapon and power attack), the animal companion wouldn't last a round. It would be like a game of tag, the druid/PS running away from the "hulk" Dweomerkeeper lest he fall into his hands and...........
It was fun, but I've lost enought time in this thread: ciao !
It was fun, no personal attacks and I get to chat with someone who made one of the best guides (counterspell/dispel) on the forum.
And..I've been wrong before and admitted it but I'm finding it hard to believe that there's a group of items that allow you to wildshape into forms that far exceed your HD. The solar has 22HD at level 17 you'd have well 17HD.
If you wanna get really cheesy just use Divine Minion ;)
~Bowen