Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 blinddagger95 Sep 19, 2009 13:53:32	One of the people at my school (an avid 4E supporter) says he will only play in our 3.5 group if he can use the TOB, which we have disallowed. His reasoning is that he wants to make a plain sword board and plate fighter who doesn't suck which he claims is "impossible" in 3.5. He clearly is using this as a jab at 3.5 so I want to make his lame character to get him to play in our group. He refuses to be "sneaky", magical, or undisciplined in any way and therefore anything based on dex or int is off the list. Is this character impossible after all?
#2 balmas Sep 19, 2009 14:33:46	In 3.5, regular people like fighters and barbarians did suck pretty hard. For a sword and board fighter like he wants to play, I'd probably work on buffing up your AC. The best way is to go for the Knight class from the PHBII. Pick up Shield Specialization, and maybe a few of the spinoffs from that feat. Find a set of mechanus gear (Planar Handbook), since you're not going to use Dex. Easiest way is to be a dwarf, since you don't suffer movement penalties in heavy armor plus you get a free dwarven waraxe prof. AC=46=10(base) +15(+5 mechanus gear) +11(+5 heavy shield +3 shield block +1 shield specialization) +5(Ring of protection) +5 (Amulet of natural armor) The good thing about Knight is that it has a high will saves, great HP, and a full BAB. Beef up your strength, Con, and Charisma. Consider a dip into the Deepwarden PrC, because at level three you can add your Con modifier to your AC.
#3 blinddagger95 Sep 19, 2009 17:59:46	Hey thanks, the feats help and I'd never heard of mechanus gear before. Deepwarden, iirc is from TOB and therefore a no go.
#4 walking_dream Sep 19, 2009 19:15:27	Deepwarden isn't from TOB, it's from Races of Stone.
#5 phaedrusxy Sep 19, 2009 22:16:55	Having a high AC is pretty meaningless at higher levels. And animated shields make the entire "sword and board" style obsolete. And all the "vanilla" casters out of the PHB are way more powerful than anything you can build with ToB. So yeah, your friend is basically right.
#6 steelblue Sep 19, 2009 23:26:35	Having a high AC is pretty meaningless at higher levels. And animated shields make the entire "sword and board" style obsolete. And all the "vanilla" casters out of the PHB are way more powerful than anything you can build with ToB. So yeah, your friend is basically right. This. I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't already be using ToB?
#7 bruceleeroy Sep 20, 2009 2:44:17	Right, what is the problem with Tome of Battle? Are you under the common, but mistaken, assumption that it is somehow "broken" or "unbalanced"? If so, please take a look at the PHB, page 37. No, not the fighter. The Druid class ability "Wild Shape". That class ability is more powerful than anything in the Tome of Battle.
#8 blinddagger95 Sep 20, 2009 17:03:37	The reason our games don't use TOB is not for the classic overpowered versus balanced debate but simply that my DM finds it annoying to learn a new system and have to know every move that the player using TOB has selected. Let's not turn this into a TOB debate thread pls. Yeah on the one side I think he's right that he can't play his archetype of choice, but to be honest it's kind of his fault for picking such a stale boring and unstylized character.
#9 vistarius Sep 21, 2009 0:42:41	I disagree that sword and board fighters are "boring" or "stale." There are tons of good options for playing sword and board fighters, and hundreds of awesome things they can pull off. One example is the Champion of Corellan from Races of the Wild that turns an elf into a pretty epic fighter. Another is the devotion feats from Complete Champion. War Devotion+Combat Expertise+Mithril Mechanus Gear+animated shield+Dodge+Nimbleness (armor enhancement)+Champion Class features=Ridiculous AC. Sure you're at a lower to hit chance, but you're also soaking lots of attacks. Sure you can't do something stupid and broken like 900 damage to all enemies or grant your own wishes or do other things that most forum goers would tell you that you need to have.   The point is to not break the game, but have fun. There are plenty of options for Sword and Board fighters to take to be on par with the other players. So I disagree they're boring.
#10 nighthawkfalconis Sep 22, 2009 14:49:59	I have the solution to this problem: don't let him play in your game! Honestly, this kid sounds like a real whiner, and if he really is using this as an excuse to make jokes about v3.5, he's probably going to try and be as terrible a character as possible.  My advice is to take a step back from this and ask yourself: "Do I really want this guy in my game?"  He wants to play a class he doesn't like just to prove a point.  In all likelihood, he's just going to drag down the rest of the group, both in-game (when he's constantly in need of something) and out-of-game (when he's whining that his character is sub-optimal and "ZOMG, 4th edition is better!").  Seriously.  Tell him to get his kicks elsewhere.  This sounds like a simple case of someone being a jerk.
#11 novabomb Sep 22, 2009 15:49:26	My first thought was I imagine he would like playing a crusader. But you are not playing with TOB (Which is unfortunate for you) It seems your not interested in playing with this dude, if you would go so far as to say the character he wants to play is "Unstylish".  Don't play with him if you don't want to, but do not mock others choice of character.  The fact S+B is weak in 3.5 is a failing of the rules, hold no illusions.
#12 blinddagger95 Sep 25, 2009 16:46:18	Your response makes it clear that you don't get what character he is hoping to play. There are bad characters, this isn't kindergarten. He refuses anything dex based, int based, cha based, uses any casting, uses anything but three exact pieces of equipment, it's a boring build and your sympathy will not change that.
#13 Herrozerro Sep 25, 2009 16:58:04	Your response makes it clear that you don't get what character he is hoping to play. There are bad characters, this isn't kindergarten. He refuses anything dex based, int based, cha based, uses any casting, uses anything but three exact pieces of equipment, it's a boring build and your sympathy will not change that. So, because he wants badwrongfun because you dont like S&B? Does your group have a "must play interesting class" houserule?
#14 blinddagger95 Sep 25, 2009 17:05:38	No, but we don't have a "must not call boring builds boring" rule.
#15 blinddagger95 Sep 25, 2009 17:16:08	Also, I LIKE SWORD AND BOARD. Lots of ways to do it, but he's refused all but one, the most vanilla one out there.
#16 Herrozerro Sep 25, 2009 18:29:12	Also, I LIKE SWORD AND BOARD. Lots of ways to do it, but he's refused all but one, the most vanilla one out there. Well lets get a little background what other books do you disallow?  If its just the ToB he might have some justification.
#17 blinddagger95 Sep 25, 2009 18:44:34	Anything tome, magic of, and third party are disallowed, exceptions upon review.we don't use most things from campaign settings aside from races and some feats.
#18 Delusionist1 Sep 27, 2009 21:42:59	By all that's good and holy, just let the guy play a Warblade. If your DM doesn't want to take the time to learn a system that takes maybe a single afternoon and has no huge complex gimmicks, he's pretty damn lazy.
#19 steelblue Sep 28, 2009 2:30:41	Anything tome, magic of, and third party are disallowed, exceptions upon review.we don't use most things from campaign settings aside from races and some feats. So... you allow every significant non-setting source... except the TOB. Yeah, I'm inclined to side with Mr. Blandandlame on this, for many reasons. 1) He's right, a sword and board melee is nearly impossible to do well without TOB. You can do all kinds of optimization tricks to make a fighter more powerful, but most of them involve ditching sword and board for an animated shield and a two-handed weapon. In fact, it's probably safe to say that the fighter, as a class, can only be effective using two-handed weapons, because they must either use two-handed weapons for maximum damage, or they have to be a niche build - sunder, trip, or disarm, and those are all best with two-handed weapons. 2) TOB is good material. Many of the weaknesses of the fighter are addressed in the warblade, and the other two classes permit more variation in terms of what kind of melee you'd prefer to be. The system isn't OP, nor is it difficult to understand and use. In fact, it's probably safe to say that TOB has less borkedness in it than any of the splatbooks your group uses normally - certainly less than the PHB. 3) By permitting the books you do, you are allowing the best possible options for casters of all sorts - Spell Compendium and Complete Mage and Arcane are all amazing for arcane casters, and clerics and druids only need the PHB... but Complete Divine helps anyway. But you aren't allowing the best possible options for melee. Core melee are TERRIBLE. Complete Warrior doesn't help. Complete Champion does, but only because there's so very much abusable material in it. TOB is the piece needed to bring melee somewhere near the level it should be. I can't blame him for objecting to your group's book policies, since they pretty much say "Be a caster or some kind of support guy or suck." Which leads to 4) Why in God's name would you complain about him wanting to run a particular type of character? The point of the game is that you can run whatever you want. This is the strength of 3.5 - if you can conceptualize it, it can be done somehow. If he wants a sword and board melee, who are you to complain? Just give him the tools he needs to do it in the way he wants - and yes, that means TOB, because 5) You will not be able to create a melee character using your books to match a TOB character. You can't do it. I promise. TOB gives melee some power options besides charger builds, and... 6) TOB provides melee with a variety of options, which makes playing melee more fun. Think about it - if a core wizard or cleric is presented with an opponent, they have a number of options. DD, direct or indirect control, buffing party members to handle the situation, buffing self and going head to head with the opponent, or running away like a little girl are all viable options for a spellcaster. A fighter's options are usually limited to "Hit it." If they're a niche build, they might have a second option to disarm or trip or whatever. TOB opens that up so that melee has more options, which ensure a more interesting class in play. There are more, many more, but... just give him TOB. There's no reason not to do so, and every reason why you should... starting with the reason that he wants it and you want him to play with you.
#20 waazraath Sep 28, 2009 4:58:42	I think plenty of stuff is also possible with the Tome of Magic, going straight binder 20 or binder 15/knight of the sacred seal 5. If your friend insists on playing sword, board & plate his options are on the lower levels limitid to certain vestiges (aym, savnok, haagenti), but from level 8 onwards you can bind more then 1 and it's possible to make a character with several options. Still, sword & board won't be the best option for a binder melee character, but it is possible. It also depends a bit on which characterlevel you'll play. For some lowlevel adventures I once made a paimon-based character with shield proficiency (feat). With a darkwood shield, (relative) high dex, finesse, dance of death, whirlwind attack I had several attacks/round with a +8 and an AC of 23. Quite nice (but at higher levels it wouldn't have worked). Anyways, check community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... for some stuff on binders and their possibilities, maybe it'll help you.