My first combat rogue - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shokatsuryou May 01, 2008 11:12:30	Hello everyone. The game I am currently playing in has become quite deadly, and the DM has hinted we might need back up characters in case of sudden tragedy. Case in point, our party of three 4th level characters just barely survived an encounter with what I think was a mohrg. If not for my beguiler keeping it busy with invisibility and silent image, we would probably all be dead. Anyway, I am thinking about making some kind of combat rogue. I usually play wizards or other spellcasters, so I could use a little help. Here's some basic info on the game: Setting: Forgotten Realms. Specifically, Waterdeep. Books: 3.5 Core, any Forgotten Realms books, Monster Manuals 2-5, DMG 2, PHB 2, Complete Series, Races of series, Environment books (Frostburn, Stormwrack, etc.), Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium. No psionics (but general feats from XPH are ok). No books from other campaign settings (no Dragonlance, Eberron, etc.). Other sources must be approved by DM (I have had good luck with getting web enhancements like this one from the Wizards site approved, for example.) Stats: Unknown, have not rolled yet. 4d6 7 times, drop lowest score. must have at least two 15s and total modifiers +7 or better or reroll the set. House Rules: No multi-classing penalties. Healing potions and apparently healing wands always cure as if cast at highest level (so cure light wounds 1d8+5). The game will run until level 12-15. We are currently level 4. Two other steady players, and a third player who shows up about 50% of the time. I don't know what the other players will make, although one was talking about making a blaster mage. I was thinking it would be fun to make some kind of female rogue who fights with two kusari-gamas (DMG 145). The reach makes it easier to flank and get AoOs, but I'm not sure how else to optimize this style. I am guessing my Strength as a rogue will be fairly low, which makes it harder to utilize tactics like (Improved) Trip. I also don't have many feats to spare. I started working on a build, but I really have no idea if it will be any good. I think it's really important that the build be playable at all levels, but especially at low levels. Human Rogue X/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter2
#2 gaffer May 01, 2008 14:52:10	It actually looks pretty solid. I'd skip Able Learner. 15/20 levels of rogue seems fine for skills. I like the Opportunist/Combat Reflexes route. I seem to remember an Improved version of Opportunist, maybe in Comp Adv? It might let you take more Opportunist attacks. One thing to consider is a level or two of Swordsage and Shadow Blade. You'd have to get DM confirmation to allow Kusari-gamas as SH weapons, but they're pretty close. Edit: Savvy Rogue, CSouncrel. Opportunist as much as you want, but 1 per opponent per round.
#3 kurashu May 01, 2008 14:56:18	There are a lot of sudden strike and sneak attack granting classes. Obviously, you'd want more sneak attack than sudden strike...unless you are great at intimidating. A build I came up with a while ago is: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Ghost Faced Killer 9/Nightsong Enforcer 1. This has BAB 18, combined +8d6 SA/SS, and Fort 11, Ref 13, and Will 8. Though, you can change as you need. I've been thinking to drop some GFK and add in Assassin instead. But Avenging Executioner is crucial to the scare and strike of the build. Other choices: Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle, if you have it), Swashbuckler is great with the rogue combo feat. After I did some fanagling of my own, the build ended up looking like: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Dread Commando 5/Swashbuckler 5. That has a combined +10d6 of SA/SS, +18 BAB, Fort +10, Ref +14, WIll +7, and an average HP of 91. Pretty fragile, but just be agile and boost your con and AC. So it squeezes some more SA/SS out, but the saves suffer a little. =/ Here's the original thread as well: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=896489
#4 shokatsuryou May 01, 2008 23:08:24	Thanks for the input. You guys have giving me a lot to think about. I'd skip Able Learner. 15/20 levels of rogue seems fine for skills. Actually it's only 10/15 levels of Rogue. I'm not sure what to do with the last 5 levels of the build. (It probably won't matter since the campaign is supposed to end around level 15 anyway.) Still, I was definitely considering dropping Able Learner. Savvy Rogue, CSouncrel. Opportunist as much as you want, but 1 per opponent per round. Thanks. With this in mind I'd probably modify my first build to get Combat Reflexes at level 1 (human bonus feat), Double Hit at 12, then Savvy Rogue at 15. I am also considering something like Robilar's Gambit, but I'm worried my character might be a little too squishy to take the extra attacks & damage... A build I came up with a while ago is: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Ghost Faced Killer 9/Nightsong Enforcer 1. This has BAB 18, combined +8d6 SA/SS, and Fort 11, Ref 13, and Will 8. It's a little different from how I envisioned my character, but I'll play around with this build and see if I like it. The Avenging Executioner + Ghost Faced Killer synergy is pretty cool. Other choices: Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle, if you have it), Swashbuckler is great with the rogue combo feat. After I did some fanagling of my own, the build ended up looking like: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Dread Commando 5/Swashbuckler 5. That has a combined +10d6 of SA/SS, +18 BAB, Fort +10, Ref +14, WIll +7, and an average HP of 91. I have Heroes of Battle but my DM doesn't. That means I'd have to get the book approved first before I could use it. If I were to to something like that, I was thinking: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Avenging Executioner 5/Dread Commando 5/Nightsong Enforcer 1. I think this is BAB 17, Sneak Attack 5d6 (/w Daring Outlaw), Sudden Strike 6d6. Add another +20 damage if I can fit Craven into the build. I might drop the 5th level of Avenging Executioner if I could find another class with good BAB and Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike at first level. I don't really like getting subpar feats to meet prestige class prereqs though. (Dread Commando requires Dodge and Mobility ). Nevertheless, I am giving a build like this some serious consideration.
#5 kurashu May 02, 2008 8:13:42	I did some searching; I found an incomplete listing of classes that grant Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike. http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-598344 It looks like we've exhausted our +1 BAB/+1d6 at first level options. Next bet: Isn't there a Ranger/Rogue feat that advances sneak attack? Also, for dodge and mobility, take two flaws if your DM allows UA.
#6 shokatsuryou May 03, 2008 1:20:18	Thanks for the link of SA classes. Most of them seem to have medium BAB, but I'm looking through them to see if they have any abilities that fit nicely into my build. Next bet: Isn't there a Ranger/Rogue feat that advances sneak attack? Also, for dodge and mobility, take two flaws if your DM allows UA. If there is a Ranger/Rogue feat, I don't know where it is. A feat like that could be very useful. I will ask about flaws, but I doubt they will be allowed. I have been tweaking my original build, and thought it would be great if I could squeeze in a level of Barbarian for the Pounce ACF from Complete Champion. Here is what I'm considering (if flaws are allowed): Human Rogue 10-14/Swashbuckler 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1
#7 werebat May 03, 2008 9:15:32	There is a mask in MIC that gives you a bite attack -- nice for getting more SA. One level of monk can be nice -- you can flurry and get another SA, plus a save boost and possible AC boost from high Wis. Oh, and stunning fist. Consider a Draconic Human (Draconomicon, RotD) if your DM allows LA buyoff. Black or Shadow dragon heritage makes sense for a rogue. You get all human abilities plus Darkvision, two claw attacks (nice at low level), +1 Nat Armor, +2 Str, Con, and Cha, and probably other stuff I'm not thinking of. - Ron ^*^

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

shokatsuryou

May 01, 2008 11:12:30

Hello everyone. The game I am currently playing in has become quite deadly, and the DM has hinted we might need back up characters in case of sudden tragedy. Case in point, our party of three 4th level characters just barely survived an encounter with what I think was a mohrg. If not for my beguiler keeping it busy with invisibility and silent image, we would probably all be dead.

Anyway, I am thinking about making some kind of combat rogue. I usually play wizards or other spellcasters, so I could use a little help. Here's some basic info on the game:

Setting: Forgotten Realms. Specifically, Waterdeep.
Books: 3.5 Core, any Forgotten Realms books, Monster Manuals 2-5, DMG 2, PHB 2, Complete Series, Races of series, Environment books (Frostburn, Stormwrack, etc.), Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium. No psionics (but general feats from XPH are ok). No books from other campaign settings (no Dragonlance, Eberron, etc.). Other sources must be approved by DM (I have had good luck with getting web enhancements like this one from the Wizards site approved, for example.)
Stats: Unknown, have not rolled yet. 4d6 7 times, drop lowest score. must have at least two 15s and total modifiers +7 or better or reroll the set.
House Rules: No multi-classing penalties. Healing potions and apparently healing wands always cure as if cast at highest level (so cure light wounds 1d8+5).

The game will run until level 12-15. We are currently level 4. Two other steady players, and a third player who shows up about 50% of the time. I don't know what the other players will make, although one was talking about making a blaster mage.

I was thinking it would be fun to make some kind of female rogue who fights with two kusari-gamas (DMG 145). The reach makes it easier to flank and get AoOs, but I'm not sure how else to optimize this style. I am guessing my Strength as a rogue will be fairly low, which makes it harder to utilize tactics like (Improved) Trip. I also don't have many feats to spare.

I started working on a build, but I really have no idea if it will be any good. I think it's really important that the build be playable at all levels, but especially at low levels.

Human Rogue X/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter2

gaffer

May 01, 2008 14:52:10

It actually looks pretty solid. I'd skip Able Learner. 15/20 levels of rogue seems fine for skills. I like the Opportunist/Combat Reflexes route. I seem to remember an Improved version of Opportunist, maybe in Comp Adv? It might let you take more Opportunist attacks.

One thing to consider is a level or two of Swordsage and Shadow Blade. You'd have to get DM confirmation to allow Kusari-gamas as SH weapons, but they're pretty close.

Edit: Savvy Rogue, CSouncrel. Opportunist as much as you want, but 1 per opponent per round.

kurashu

May 01, 2008 14:56:18

There are a lot of sudden strike and sneak attack granting classes. Obviously, you'd want more sneak attack than sudden strike...unless you are great at intimidating.

A build I came up with a while ago is: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Ghost Faced Killer 9/Nightsong Enforcer 1.

This has BAB 18, combined +8d6 SA/SS, and Fort 11, Ref 13, and Will 8.

Though, you can change as you need. I've been thinking to drop some GFK and add in Assassin instead. But Avenging Executioner is crucial to the scare and strike of the build.

Other choices: Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle, if you have it), Swashbuckler is great with the rogue combo feat.

After I did some fanagling of my own, the build ended up looking like: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Dread Commando 5/Swashbuckler 5.

That has a combined +10d6 of SA/SS, +18 BAB, Fort +10, Ref +14, WIll +7, and an average HP of 91. Pretty fragile, but just be agile and boost your con and AC. So it squeezes some more SA/SS out, but the saves suffer a little. =/

Here's the original thread as well: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=896489

shokatsuryou

May 01, 2008 23:08:24

Thanks for the input. You guys have giving me a lot to think about.

I'd skip Able Learner. 15/20 levels of rogue seems fine for skills.

Actually it's only 10/15 levels of Rogue. I'm not sure what to do with the last 5 levels of the build. (It probably won't matter since the campaign is supposed to end around level 15 anyway.)

Still, I was definitely considering dropping Able Learner.

Savvy Rogue, CSouncrel. Opportunist as much as you want, but 1 per opponent per round.

Thanks. With this in mind I'd probably modify my first build to get Combat Reflexes at level 1 (human bonus feat), Double Hit at 12, then Savvy Rogue at 15. I am also considering something like Robilar's Gambit, but I'm worried my character might be a little too squishy to take the extra attacks & damage...

A build I came up with a while ago is: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Ghost Faced Killer 9/Nightsong Enforcer 1.

This has BAB 18, combined +8d6 SA/SS, and Fort 11, Ref 13, and Will 8.

It's a little different from how I envisioned my character, but I'll play around with this build and see if I like it. The Avenging Executioner + Ghost Faced Killer synergy is pretty cool.

Other choices: Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle, if you have it), Swashbuckler is great with the rogue combo feat.

After I did some fanagling of my own, the build ended up looking like: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Avenging Executioner 4/Dread Commando 5/Swashbuckler 5.

That has a combined +10d6 of SA/SS, +18 BAB, Fort +10, Ref +14, WIll +7, and an average HP of 91.

I have Heroes of Battle but my DM doesn't. That means I'd have to get the book approved first before I could use it.

If I were to to something like that, I was thinking: Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Avenging Executioner 5/Dread Commando 5/Nightsong Enforcer 1. I think this is BAB 17, Sneak Attack 5d6 (/w Daring Outlaw), Sudden Strike 6d6. Add another +20 damage if I can fit Craven into the build.

I might drop the 5th level of Avenging Executioner if I could find another class with good BAB and Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike at first level.

I don't really like getting subpar feats to meet prestige class prereqs though. (Dread Commando requires Dodge and Mobility

). Nevertheless, I am giving a build like this some serious consideration.

kurashu

May 02, 2008 8:13:42

I did some searching; I found an incomplete listing of classes that grant Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike.

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-598344

It looks like we've exhausted our +1 BAB/+1d6 at first level options. Next bet: Isn't there a Ranger/Rogue feat that advances sneak attack?

Also, for dodge and mobility, take two flaws if your DM allows UA.

shokatsuryou

May 03, 2008 1:20:18

Thanks for the link of SA classes. Most of them seem to have medium BAB, but I'm looking through them to see if they have any abilities that fit nicely into my build.

Next bet: Isn't there a Ranger/Rogue feat that advances sneak attack?

Also, for dodge and mobility, take two flaws if your DM allows UA.

If there is a Ranger/Rogue feat, I don't know where it is. A feat like that could be very useful.

I will ask about flaws, but I doubt they will be allowed.

I have been tweaking my original build, and thought it would be great if I could squeeze in a level of Barbarian for the Pounce ACF from Complete Champion. Here is what I'm considering (if flaws are allowed):

Human Rogue 10-14/Swashbuckler 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Nightsong Enforcer 1

werebat

May 03, 2008 9:15:32

There is a mask in MIC that gives you a bite attack -- nice for getting more SA.

One level of monk can be nice -- you can flurry and get another SA, plus a save boost and possible AC boost from high Wis. Oh, and stunning fist.

Consider a Draconic Human (Draconomicon, RotD) if your DM allows LA buyoff. Black or Shadow dragon heritage makes sense for a rogue. You get all human abilities plus Darkvision, two claw attacks (nice at low level), +1 Nat Armor, +2 Str, Con, and Cha, and probably other stuff I'm not thinking of.

- Ron ^*^