Quite a few years back, I used to play a nifty little point-buy-based system called 3D&T, released only on Brazil. It was remarkably simple: only d6s were used, 5 attributes (Strength, Ability, Stamina, Armor and Firepower), a simple skill system, and advantages/disadvantages with fixed costs each. Overall, it was extremely simple to make a character for it. Eventually, 3rd Edition and the D20 system rolled in. At the time, there was a lot of commotion in the Brazillian RPG community that WotC would take over the RPG world as we knew it, and that all diversity within it would plain disappear. The original 3D&T developers were not the least bothered by it -- they ran a magazine that claimed to be the only RPG-specialized in the market, their system was remarkably simpler and cheaper. In fact, where they once gave only stats for their own system, they started giving stats for D20 as well.
Over time, 3D&T all but shrank back in face of the quickly advancing 3rd edition (and the infighting of the editors of said magazine, but I digress). It's now in their 4th edition, but I don't think barely anyone remembers it anymore. That happened, I believe, because the system was exceedingly simple and VERY easy to break. Broken builds with starting characters were all but commonplace when the system was at its highest, and even when the system "suffered" a considerable nerf, it was still very, very possible to break it over again.
D&D suffers from a similar malady, although it's quite across the spectrum. The problem with D&D is that it's VERY complex. There are all kinds of rules and loopholes one can use to make their characters stronger, and there's no end of materials available to optimize. This problematic tends to be oversimplified into a "Role-play versus Roll-play" issue. In short, those who choose to optimize their characters are called "powergamers" and ostracized by their more "flavor-oriented" peers. An excellent thread has been posted on the CO boards (I believe it was called "The Optimization Gospel" or somesuch, but I didn't bookmark it) in that regard. It offered several points and counterpoints to the whole Roll-playing debacle, including things such as "overpowered casters" and other such subjects. It basically offered an alternative: instead of trying to correct flaws or trying to conciliate Roll-play/Role-play, it said, "embrace the flaws" (at least, that was my understanding).
And it was right on the spot.
Let's face it, D&D has been punched with more holes than swiss cheese. The abundance of materials is just the tip of the iceberg -- one can destroy the world only by being a 15-level Wizard with Craft Wondrous Item, Polymorph any Object and enough money to burn. All BY THE RULES. Now, this is, of course, unacceptable to most, even the most power-hungry optimizer -- people say you shouldn't actually PLAY Pun-Pun, but the fact is, the possibility of him existing at all is THERE. Even more "mild" optimizations tend to be frowned upon by so-called "serious roleplayers", saying it "detracts from the experience".
Bullcrap.
If the rules are so wrong, then why are any "serious role-players" playing D&D at all? And, by contrast, if all the "powergamers" care about is the number crunching, why the hell aren't they playing just another wargame?
Let's face it. In order for a good story to be told, THERE NEEDS TO BE RULES. I'd even go so far as to say that having a DM is a monstrosity to actual role-play; the only reason we have for it is that the characters by themselves can only interact between themselves. I've been writing a story with a very good friend of mine for the better part of the last two or three years. The ground rules are simple. I don't control my friend's characters, and my friend doesn't control mine. Our story happens in two different, parallel worlds at once. For the most part, I control what happens in my side and she controls what happens on hers. On occasion, we switch who's controlling what. We've had very few arguments over "rules" and such for the whole period. We don't even so much as use a system to determine success. One character attempts something, the other character reacts, and we both accept or retcon what transpired as needed by the story.
Ideally, D&D should be like that. We shouldn't NEED a DM. We shouldn't NEED rules, or even a system. But let's face it, we do need someone to coordinate and help us tell the story, and we need rules to determine the success and failure of our characters' actions. But the DM is only partially bound by the rules. If he decides that it takes a swift action to talk, then it takes a swift action to talk. Though D&D doesn't enforce this as strongly as other systems (let's be frank... how many books have been released "for DM eyes ONLY"?), it doesn't waive it, either. So it's up to the group's consensus on how this should work.
Rules aren't supposed to suck the fun out of gaming, they're supposed to enhance it. I have two separate groups I game with, and I have fun with both. But I have to say that both groups could use improvement.
Rules can only be bent or changed so far before the whole system falls over. Items/abilities/spells can only be forbidden so far until the players get sick of it. DMs can only be such bossy and railroading BASTARDS until the group gets fed up. What's important is to have fun. To have your character be all that he can be. To have the story unfold as well as it can!
Enough of this "Role-playing versus Roll-playing" bigotry. Let's just FRIGGIN' PLAY!
Whats the point with your post?
Why is it here?
I read your post.
Whats the point with your post?
Why is it here?
The (wo)man has probably has a rough day at the office, wife yelled at him for not cleaning up his dirty socks, the shed still needs to be repaired, he ran out of shampoo while taking a shower and on top of it all his favorite soccer team lost horribly...
He just needs a place to ventilate his emotions and feel loved...
Although I hardly think this is the place to be :P
I don't think you are going to get any reaction past, "I concur," as a lot of people have previously discussed this concern. The most popular thread tackling this issue is probably The Stormwind Fallacy, so most of "us" already know everything you touched on.
Sweet Mama of the Bahamas, look at those walls of texts...
Cry me a friggin' river.
The (wo)man has probably has a rough day at the office, wife yelled at him for not cleaning up his dirty socks, the shed still needs to be repaired, he ran out of shampoo while taking a shower and on top of it all his favorite soccer team lost horribly...
He just needs a place to ventilate his emotions and feel loved...
Although I hardly think this is the place to be
Somehow I figured there was going to be some sort of reply like this. You are partially correct in that I wrote this to vent out frustration (or part of it anyways).
I don't think you are going to get any reaction past, "I concur," as a lot of people have previously discussed this concern. The most popular thread tackling this issue is probably The Stormwind Fallacy, so most of "us" already know everything you touched on.
I felt that I'd get the most responses if I started a fresh, new thread, rather than chime in on someone else's thread. Further, I feel that the whole "Roleplay vs Rollplay" debate is an oversimplification of the issue, and there is FAR too much prejudice (from WITHIN the role-playing community, no less) against the so-called "powergamers" -- in case the post wasn't clear.
Not to mention the fact that I don't feel like wallowing through the Stormwind Fallacy thread.
Not to mention the fact that I don't feel like wallowing through the Stormwind Fallacy thread.
If you aren't willing to put effort into reading the Stormwind Fallacy, which is the most popular thread about your particular subject, then why would anyone put the effort into reading your "Manifesto"?
Show
Sorry, I had to... I just had to... I'll go back to my hole now... :D
- always good to hear from the land that created Soccer ;)
"Stormwind Fallacy"
- we got you covered, welcome aboard.
"D6"
- various attempts have been made over the last 30 years.
"myopia"
- I googled Portuguese to English translation; entered this; and found it has no straight translation.
"Gary Gygax"
- the man.
- Said the point of the game is FUN.
- He prefered to have less rules, so you had to make stuff up.
"Pun-pun"
- If you really were gonna try to play that in a so-called Real game, you'd have to let other infinite builds in too; like Tsuyoshikentsu's Shaedling thread; or LoP's Omnificer; or my continuation of the Hive called Blingy The Psicrystal. It would be a fun game for the time it took to debate the outcome. "I'm infinite in 18 rounds." "I'm inifinite in 1 round." "I'm infinite during round one." "Yeah, but how old are you?" "Let's debate the rules!"
If you want to break your home game, go ahead ... it is considered rather un-Ethical.
If you aren't willing to put effort into reading the Stormwind Fallacy, which is the most popular thread about your particular subject, then why would anyone put the effort into reading your "Manifesto"?
Especially considering the format. Like someone said on the CharDevelopment Boards, "Paragraphs are your friend."
P.S. Myopia is near-sightedness.
(had to)
"Brazil"
- always good to hear from the land that created Soccer ;)
sorry, but i think it's england, Brazilians just play it better..
Not to mention the fact that I don't feel like wallowing through the Stormwind Fallacy thread.
I hear ya about wallowing. I felt like shooting myself when I was halfway through, but I kept reading until I got to the end...and decided that the Stormwind Fallacy post itself was worth the time.
My advice, read the first few posts, then skip to the last 10 posts or so. The Stormwind Fallacy is posted towards the very end, and that's what really matters: anyone who doesn't like the Roleplay versus rollplay stereotypes and lameness should read The Stormwind Fallacy first, then see if they have anything to say that TSF doesn't say better. Most of the debate is simply rehashing over and over anyway.
Me: Right. What do you want to play?
Player: Conan.
Me: OK. You are looking at Barbarian, maybe a few levels of Fighter, with Rogue and maybe that Shadowbane or Nightsong PrC thrown in. The one that gives you sneak attack and fightery stuff.
Player: But that is too many classes! What kind of roleplay is that?
Me: Look. You can be Conan, or you can be Steve Urkle. Your choice. Next!
sorry, but i think it's england, Brazilians just play it better..
WARNING !!! SOCCER "JOKES" COMMENCING
Brazil is Drunken Master + the Psi- feat that let's you charge not in a straight line
England is Arcane Arrow on the TO-board + really high Jump checks
American (football) is Candle of Invocation loop + Feeblemind
;) hopefully I've offended a soccer hooligan.
sorry, but i think it's england, Brazilians just play it better..
Actually, from what I hear, soccer was originally a Chinese military training exercise. They kicked around a ball made of pig bladder filled with sand and tried to push it between the opposite team's designated area -- supposedly the whole thing was done to increase leg strength and team play coordination.
WARNING !!! SOCCER "JOKES" COMMENCING
Brazil is Drunken Master + the Psi- feat that let's you charge not in a straight line
England is Arcane Arrow on the TO-board + really high Jump checks
American (football) is Candle of Invocation loop + Feeblemind
hopefully I've offended a soccer hooligan.
Supposedly, the best soccer players of all time played during the 60s-70s. Now THOSE were Drunken Masters. I don't think you managed to offend anyone, though -- as a general rule, Brazillian gamers don't care much for soccer.
Okay, now that I've ressurrected the thread...
Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here is mine:
Me: Right. What do you want to play?
Player: Conan.
Me: OK. You are looking at Barbarian, maybe a few levels of Fighter, with Rogue and maybe that Shadowbane or Nightsong PrC thrown in. The one that gives you sneak attack and fightery stuff.
Player: But that is too many classes! What kind of roleplay is that?
Me: Look. You can be Conan, or you can be Steve Urkle. Your choice. Next!
EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE. THANK YOU.
I hear ya about wallowing. I felt like shooting myself when I was halfway through, but I kept reading until I got to the end...and decided that the Stormwind Fallacy post itself was worth the time.
My advice, read the first few posts, then skip to the last 10 posts or so. The Stormwind Fallacy is posted towards the very end, and that's what really matters: anyone who doesn't like the Roleplay versus rollplay stereotypes and lameness should read The Stormwind Fallacy first, then see if they have anything to say that TSF doesn't say better. Most of the debate is simply rehashing over and over anyway.
Meh, I'll take a look.
If you aren't willing to put effort into reading the Stormwind Fallacy, which is the most popular thread about your particular subject, then why would anyone put the effort into reading your "Manifesto"?
So, wait, I have to take a PHD in what other people said about the same subject to express my opinion in a different thread now? Isn't that kinda like saying you have to have tried to play Pun-Pun to know what breaking the game feels like?
Actually, from what I hear, soccer was originally a Chinese military training exercise. They kicked around a ball made of pig bladder filled with sand and tried to push it between the opposite team's designated area -- supposedly the whole thing was done to increase leg strength and team play coordination.
Still, England made it officially a sport, if left to chinese it wouldn't get done, anyway it's nice to know
Actually, from what I hear, soccer was Supposedly, the best soccer players of all time played during the 60s-70s. Now THOSE were Drunken Masters. I don't think you managed to offend anyone, though -- as a general rule, Brazillian gamers don't care much for soccer.
That can't be known for sure, times are different...
but about offending Brazilians (I'm one of them), did not offend me, heck our president is a drunken master, not that I don't like him or anything.
That can't be known for sure, times are different...
but about offending Brazilians (I'm one of them), did not offend me, heck our president is a drunken master, not that I don't like him or anything.
No, he's just a regular drunk.
No, he's just a regular drunk.
unoptimized, but still our president
Further, I feel that the whole "Roleplay vs Rollplay" debate is an oversimplification of the issue, and there is FAR too much prejudice (from WITHIN the role-playing community, no less) against the so-called "powergamers" -- in case the post wasn't clear. QUOTE]
So, where you expecting it to come from some place else? Who other than role players even cares about what role players are doing. Of course it comes from "WITHIN the role-playing community".
It would be funny though to be like looking through the job classified and seeing at the end of one ad, "Power gamers need not apply"
So, where you expecting it to come from some place else? Who other than role players even cares about what role players are doing. Of course it comes from "WITHIN the role-playing community".
It would be funny though to be like looking through the job classified and seeing at the end of one ad, "Power gamers need not apply"
Fair enough for a laugh. One point, though: power gamers are not exclusively Role-players, it refers to gamers in general. It is also appliable to people who play videogames (particularly fighting games).
The word has a different connotation in my language: it generally applies to cheaters and has a much less... appealing stigma to it.
And that's not the point anyways. I see lots of people criticizing X system or Y system because it's too "Rules-heavy" or "Too broken". Case in point here would be D&D and Vampire: The Masquerade.
Now, I'm not saying this has anything to do with power gamers (because it doesn't). This is purely a rules vs no rules thing. Sometimes I wonder why they pick a system at all if they won't use the rules.
Anyway, I myself enjoy a good dungeon crawl every now and then. I don't always want to talk to NPCs; I don't always want to explore the surrounding lands; I don't always want to discover the plots and schemes of the political groups in the major city. I like making things dead, and sometimes there is nothing more satisfying than laying waste to hordes of goblins and kobolds (and thus reducing the likelihood of Pun-Pun becoming real! meep!). Then again, sometimes nothing is more satisfying than overthrowing the evil wizard's plot to take over the world without hurling a single fireball at him.
I've always wondered why it is we can't seem to just bring both sides of it together. It's not like it's hard.
Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here is mine:
Me: Right. What do you want to play?
Player: Conan.
Me: OK. You are looking at Barbarian, maybe a few levels of Fighter, with Rogue and maybe that Shadowbane or Nightsong PrC thrown in. The one that gives you sneak attack and fightery stuff.
Player: But that is too many classes! What kind of roleplay is that?
Me: Look. You can be Conan, or you can be Steve Urkle. Your choice. Next!
What I would say to Player: Conan is a complicated character, so it would make sense for Conan to have complicated class levels.
...FAR too much prejudice (from WITHIN the role-playing community, no less...
... Of course it comes from "WITHIN the role-playing community"....
There is no role-playing community.
Pedantic alert
No more than there is an "american" community. It's a bunch of fragmented communities, mainly centered on local gaming groups. Even the internet hasn't really changed that. Everyone can talk at each other all they want via the internet ABOUT role-playing, but that doesn't make them a community.
This board represents a community in a real way. It has particular discursive practices, norms of behavior, and so on. I should point out here that the OP is NOT a part of that community yet. At best, s/he is a peripheral member, but is not really engaging in legitimate peripheral practices (for more on LPP, see Lave and Wenger, 1991). I'd probably go so far as to say that this board itself probably represents a Discourse (big-D, in the sense that Gee wrote about, try chapter 8 of "Developing Advanced Literacy in First and Second Languages: Meaning with Power").
Anyway, the point is that if you think of this board as a "community", it's a community of metagame practitioners. We talk ABOUT the game. We don't actually play the game together. Even PbP sites aren't usually a whole community, but a collection of little ones. We bump up against each other, and argue about whether or not a sane DM would allow this or that, but we don't actually play role-playing games together.
On this board, we don't even talk about playing role-playing games, for the most part. We talk about making characters; that's why I labelled us a metagame community. There are a few CO diaries where people actually talk about their games and there are interesting discussions there, but those are the exception, rather than the rule. Other boards here and elsewhere are better examples of that, though.
Anyway, back to my original point. Whenever you look closely at any particular subcommunity of role-players, you discover that the so-called "subcommunity" is actually a fully-fledged community in its own right, with its own local norms and practices. Those norms and practices do not overlap very often with the norms and practices of other communities - take two different games and you'll see very different emphases on CO-level, roleplay vs mechanical discussion at the table ("I hit AC 20" vs "I swing mightily"), balance between combat and interaction, and so on.
It looks like there's a role-playing community to you because you talk to your table-mates, and you probably talk to your game-store friends, and you all have created your own local community there, which shares a lot of features with other communities (you play the same game, etc). But you shouldn't take for granted that the entire "role-playing community" thinks anything, because it usually doesn't.
But as a whole, I don't think I'm convinced that there's enough interrelation or shared values to talk about the "role-playing community" as if it were at all monolithic. Sorry.
No more than there is an "american" community. It's a bunch of fragmented communities, mainly centered on local gaming groups. Even the internet hasn't really changed that. Everyone can talk at each other all they want via the internet ABOUT role-playing, but that doesn't make them a community.
This board represents a community in a real way. It has particular discursive practices, norms of behavior, and so on. I should point out here that the OP is NOT a part of that community yet. At best, s/he is a peripheral member, but is not really engaging in legitimate peripheral practices (for more on LPP, see Lave and Wenger, 1991). I'd probably go so far as to say that this board itself probably represents a Discourse (big-D, in the sense that Gee wrote about, try chapter 8 of "Developing Advanced Literacy in First and Second Languages: Meaning with Power").
Anyway, the point is that if you think of this board as a "community", it's a community of metagame practitioners. We talk ABOUT the game. We don't actually play the game together. Even PbP sites aren't usually a whole community, but a collection of little ones. We bump up against each other, and argue about whether or not a sane DM would allow this or that, but we don't actually play role-playing games together.
On this board, we don't even talk about playing role-playing games, for the most part. We talk about making characters; that's why I labelled us a metagame community. There are a few CO diaries where people actually talk about their games and there are interesting discussions there, but those are the exception, rather than the rule. Other boards here and elsewhere are better examples of that, though.
Anyway, back to my original point. Whenever you look closely at any particular subcommunity of role-players, you discover that the so-called "subcommunity" is actually a fully-fledged community in its own right, with its own local norms and practices. Those norms and practices do not overlap very often with the norms and practices of other communities - take two different games and you'll see very different emphases on CO-level, roleplay vs mechanical discussion at the table ("I hit AC 20" vs "I swing mightily"), balance between combat and interaction, and so on.
It looks like there's a role-playing community to you because you talk to your table-mates, and you probably talk to your game-store friends, and you all have created your own local community there, which shares a lot of features with other communities (you play the same game, etc). But you shouldn't take for granted that the entire "role-playing community" thinks anything, because it usually doesn't.
But as a whole, I don't think I'm convinced that there's enough interrelation or shared values to talk about the "role-playing community" as if it were at all monolithic. Sorry.