Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ksbsnowowl Mar 08, 2008 21:20:54	I'm just about to join a second group (as opposed to the one I DM for) as a player, and I had a meeting with my new DM the other night. I didn't know until the meeting that what his group really needs is a mage character, and that was the one character archetype I had no ideas for going into the meeting. The DM picked up on my "deer in headlights" look, and suggested perhaps going with the Arcane Hierophant, as the party was about to head through a wooded, mountainous region. I rolled my stats and said I'd have to think on what to play. Later, as I was struggling with what I should play, the thought of the AH came back to my mind, and I thought it would be a fun class to play, especially when I saw the Killoren race while flipping through RotW. I've emailed a basic character build to the DM for his approval, but haven't heard back about the Killoren being approved yet (though he did say all "Races of ..." races, except Illumian, were ok). The DM said that he is very challenging, and encourages Optimization for the sake of player survival, so I don't want to screw this up. The party is currently 5th level, but he said they will most likely be 6th level by the time I enter the picture. Nothing definite, but I should plan on the character starting play in the 5-6 level range. He also said that they are likely to go to Sigil and go plane hopping in the not-to-distant future. The game is in "non-cannon" Greyhawk, and the party currently consists of a Human Cleric (of a GH deity that's not in the PHB, don't know), a Halfling Rogue, a Paladin, and a Barbarian. As I am supposed to be the "party mage" I'm aiming to cut down on the number of wizard caster levels I lose out on, and as such, plan on sliding two levels of Mytic Theurge in before starting Arcane Hierophant. I know about the Earth Spell "trick," and I actually think this DM might allow it, but I know you need to be human to pull it off (without varients); but I'll think about it if he turns down my choice of Killoren as my race. I've checked out the Arcane Hierophant Examined thread, and found it very informative, but I'm still at a loss for some of this. I'd like to play up the role of a reservoir of Ancient lore aspect of the Killoren, and am giving serious thought to the Killoren Ancient feat from RotW. It allows you to spend 10 minutes meditating on a subject, and then make a knowledge check (even if you have no ranks) with a +4 insight bonus. I'd also (for a role-playing aspect) like to be the mixing of the power of nature and the fey allure. Sure, sorcerer may do that "better," giving me a great Charisma and it would also make my life easier as far a spell organization goes, but the sheer number of skill points I'll have to spend with a high Int will be nice. Sorcerer also has the delayed casting, which would hurt doubly much in this case. Another option would be Beguiler; it would give me the illusion and enchantment fey allure, as well as gobbs of skill points, but again it would be a delayed caster. I also had the thought, that since I will have a relatively high number of skill ranks, that it would be a good idea to put ranks into Hide and Move Silently, thus allowing me to scout around (both in and out of wildshape). Thus why I initially thought to take the Guerrilla Warrior feat from Heroes of Battle (allows you to buy Hide and MS at one rank per skill point, but doesn't stop the 1/2 max ranks limit on cross-class skills). So, here are my stats, and my first sketchy build: Killoren Male Str: 12, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 16, Cha: 9 .1. Druid 1 - Guerrilla Warrior .2. Wizard 1 - Scribe Scroll .3. Druid 2 - Sudden Extend .4. Wizard 2 .5. Wizard 3 .6. Druid 3 - Touch of Healing [reserve] .7. Mystic Theurge 1 .8. Mystic Theurge 2 .9. Arcane Hierophant - ?Killoren Ancient? 10. Arc Hie -- Wildshape is gained 11. Arc Hie 12. Arc Hie - Natural Spell From there I would just max out AH, and then take 2 additional levels of MT. I'm not sure what feats I would take after that. Now, I realize that some of these feat choices may well be limiting my options. Touch of Healing just seems like a useful feat, but with the party already having a cleric and a paladin, we might not need it. But, it would help take the "healer" role off the shoulders of the cleric a bit (I don't know if he feels like a walking first-aid kit or not). I'm not sure if I should invest in Practiced Spellcaster, and if I do, which side should I place it on? (Or should I get it twice?) Another thought - Should I specialize as a wizard? It would be rather tough. Looking over the basic wizard list in the PHB made me see lots of spells I'd hate to give up. About the only school I'd want to give up is Enchantment, and the only way to give up that one school is to go Diviner, but I don't really want half the spells in my spellbook to be divinations, especially when I get most of them (and with less-expensive foci) as a druid anyway. One benefit of specialization would be to get the Metamagic School Focus feat from Complete Mage - then I could get normal Extend rather than Sudden Extend. Any ideas to help me sort my thoughts out? Help give me a little direction? One last thing, while researching feats for this build, I came across the Runesmith, which I had completely forgotten about. I could perhaps see myself playing one of those. I'm not sure of the best way to do that, though. I suppose I could just burn my levels 1, 3, and 6 feats on armor proficiencies. Or I could take the 1 level hit and start with a level of Fighter. A dwarven Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 5/Eldritch Knight 10 wouldn't be too bad; it only loses 2 caster levels. Or I suppose I could change the Eldritch Knight to Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/.... Anyway, enough rambling. Any help, ideas, and direction would be greatly appreciated.
#2 braithwaite Mar 09, 2008 9:34:13	Q1. Cant you get by with only 1 level of Mystic theurge before entering AH? Personally, I think bonded companion, companion spellbond and Practiced spellcaster (either) are all almost required for Arcane Hierophant. Letting your intelligent, high HD companion/familiar share the joy of Polymorph self at 30 foot range really makes him a combat beast. I think Specialist absolutely helps AH, particularly Transmuter, but Conjurer or Diviner work OK also. Abjuration and Evocation are both skippable for the AH, since he gets good similar spells on the Druid side. Necromancy is another good option to lose. Enchantment is not, in my opinion, a good school for the AH to lose, because at high levels, you will have good fort save-or-dies on Druid side, but enchantment is where most of the best will save-or-dies come from, and you will want a few of those as well.
#3 callen Mar 09, 2008 10:23:51	I'm not sure if I should invest in Practiced Spellcaster, and if I do, which side should I place it on? (Or should I get it twice?) Personally, I find keeping the caster level high one of the only ways to stomach losing all the spells levels. A good way to think through its value is to consider how much you would pay for a +3 caster level bump from magic items versus how much that same money would buy for you elsewhere. For example, Boots of Elvenkind and a Cloak of Elvenkind together give you +5 to Hide and Move Silently for 5,000 gp. Meanwhile three Ioun Stones would cost you 90,000 for +3 caster levels. At the same time you want to consider the caster levels cost two feats and that you can by Hide and Move Silently more expensively without the feat. Then see how Guerilla Warrior stacks up in your mind against Practiced Spellcaster. Similarly, compare Sudden Empower and the cost of a Rod of Metamagic Empower (9,000 gp, 32,500 gp, or 73,000 gp), noting that you can use the rod three times as often so it's worth a third of those values. Also, how are you getting Sudden Empower? I don't see the prerequisite metamagic feat. Another thought - Should I specialize as a wizard? It would be rather tough. Looking over the basic wizard list in the PHB made me see lots of spells I'd hate to give up. About the only school I'd want to give up is Enchantment, and the only way to give up that one school is to go Diviner, but I don't really want half the spells in my spellbook to be divinations, especially when I get most of them (and with less-expensive foci) as a druid anyway. One benefit of specialization would be to get the Metamagic School Focus feat from Complete Mage - then I could get normal Extend rather than Sudden Extend. If you're allowed to use Dragon Magazine stuff (didn't see a book list, sorry if I missed it), then the Theurgic Specialist feat can be very nice, especially if the game isn't going to really high levels or if you can find some uncapped spells you like. My brother did that with conjuration. Even though he learns the conjuration spells late, when he gets them he can cast them significantly better than the normal caster of the same level. On another note, consider how much you'll get from Wild Shape, both based on how late you pick it up and based on the strength of the forms at those levels. If the campaign is unlikely to go far beyond 10th level or you can't make sure the forms are good enough because of the lost 5 levels (7 eventually) of Wild Shape, then you might consider the variant in Unearthed Arcana to get Wisdom to AC and Fast Movement. You'll have their benefits from early on while still waiting for 10th level; after 10th level comes the real question. Hope that helps, Chris
#4 callen Mar 09, 2008 10:26:56	Q1. Cant you get by with only 1 level of Mystic theurge before entering AH? BAB +4 is needed, which could be another Druid, Wizard, or Mystic Theurge level after Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 1. To reduce lost spellcasting, Mystic Theurge is preferable. Chris
#5 ksbsnowowl Mar 09, 2008 21:40:46	Q1. Cant you get by with only 1 level of Mystic theurge before entering AH? As callen answered, no, due to the BAB requirement. Personally, I think bonded companion, companion spellbond and Practiced spellcaster (either) are all almost required for Arcane Hierophant. Letting your intelligent, high HD companion/familiar share the joy of Polymorph self at 30 foot range really makes him a combat beast. Yeah, feats are just so tight, as I'm discovering... Companion Spellbond does look great though. I think Specialist absolutely helps AH, particularly Transmuter, but Conjurer or Diviner work OK also. Abjuration and Evocation are both skippable for the AH, since he gets good similar spells on the Druid side. Necromancy is another good option to lose. Enchantment is not, in my opinion, a good school for the AH to lose, because at high levels, you will have good fort save-or-dies on Druid side, but enchantment is where most of the best will save-or-dies come from, and you will want a few of those as well. Good point about the Will save or dies from Enchantment. I disagree with you about necromancy though. If you are going to put many of your wildshape forms to use, you'll need the extra hitpoints from False Life and possibly Vampiric Touch. So far, I guess conjuration is the best school to specialize in, but it's difficult choosing what to give up. Personally, I find keeping the caster level high one of the only ways to stomach losing all the spells levels. A good way to think through its value is to consider how much you would pay for a +3 caster level bump from magic items versus how much that same money would buy for you elsewhere. For example, Boots of Elvenkind and a Cloak of Elvenkind together give you +5 to Hide and Move Silently for 5,000 gp. Meanwhile three Ioun Stones would cost you 90,000 for +3 caster levels. At the same time you want to consider the caster levels cost two feats and that you can by Hide and Move Silently more expensively without the feat. Then see how Guerilla Warrior stacks up in your mind against Practiced Spellcaster. Good comparison between the feats and items. I'll certainly get Practiced Spellcaster with one side, if not both. But again, feats are rather scarce. I'd really like to take the Killoren Ancient feat by the time I enter play. Also, how are you getting Sudden Empower? I don't see the prerequisite metamagic feat. That was supposed to be Sudden Extend, which has no metamagic prereq... fixed it in the first post. If you're allowed to use Dragon Magazine stuff (didn't see a book list, sorry if I missed it), then the Theurgic Specialist feat can be very nice, especially if the game isn't going to really high levels or if you can find some uncapped spells you like. My brother did that with conjuration. Even though he learns the conjuration spells late, when he gets them he can cast them significantly better than the normal caster of the same level. The Completes and Races of series are mostly fine, beyond that, I'm not sure. I don't have much interest in Dragon material (no offense), and as I'm new to this group, I'd like to keep it to published books, which, true of not, have a better reputation. On another note, consider how much you'll get from Wild Shape, both based on how late you pick it up and based on the strength of the forms at those levels. If the campaign is unlikely to go far beyond 10th level or you can't make sure the forms are good enough because of the lost 5 levels (7 eventually) of Wild Shape, then you might consider the variant in Unearthed Arcana to get Wisdom to AC and Fast Movement. You'll have their benefits from early on while still waiting for 10th level; after 10th level comes the real question. He didn't give me a target level range, but from our talk he seems to be the kind that will run a group up to the upper teens before starting things over. I know I won't be the "normal" druid powerhouse; I mostly intend to use wildshape for scouting, increased mobility, and the occational buff before I do need to lay a touch spell on someone. Ok, so I'll want to start at 6th level with Practiced Spellcaster at least once, Killoren Ancient, and one other feat. Guerrilla Warrior probably isn't worth it, nor is Touch of Healing. Companion Spellbond might be worth it. I'll probably get that as my 6th level feat, and then pick up the other Practiced Spellcaster feat at 9th level, depending on how things work out. Going on the assumption that I only pick up Practiced Spellcaster once by the time the character comes into play, which class would you suggest I take it for? Still undecided about specializing. Conjuration is looking really good, but I'm still at a loss of what schools to lose. Here is an idea that will help focus any advice. I'd like to focus on battlefield control and dealing status effects (Poison, Cloudkill, Ray of Stupidity, Saltray, etc.) Generally, Evocation could be lost for that, but I'd hate to lose access to Wall of Ice, Wall of Force, and Wall of Fire. I'll have to think on it yet, and learn exactly what books I can draw spells from.
#6 pfooti Mar 09, 2008 22:07:35	As far as conjuring goes, I suggest losing Illusion and Evocation. Both are very versatile schools (TreantMonk did a neat deconstruction of Evocation that made it look very pretty), but you can live without them. Personally, however, in a level 5-15 campaign, I'd suggest staying away from arcane heirophant in general. I'm not speaking from experience, so take my words with a big grain of salt, and consider of course what you really want to do, BUT... Dual progression classes are pretty weak early on. It takes a really long time to get to 4th-level spells (that's, IMO, where wizards start to get interesting), compared to straight casters. A transmutation specialist can work with alter self and suchlike (and I'm pretty sure I don't have to tell you about otherworldly, heh). And those dual progression classes really start kicking butt around level 12, which only gives you 2 levels to enjoy it. All the same, if you do end up going that way, practiced spellcaster is pretty kickin', and companion spellbond is simply amazing. Look at Evard's Menacing Tentacles from PHB2. Best druid spell, ever. Consider what you and you familiar/companion could accomplish with those. Then add on flame whips (SpC) later. There's some pretty awesome gishy buffs you could run with on you and your companion that could kick some butt. Both are nice targets for empowering (although you might end up doing that with a rod instead). That's what I would suggest - wildshape, buff you and your companion, and jump into combat with wizard transmutation spells supporting that.
#7 ksbsnowowl Mar 11, 2008 12:25:13	So I've not yet heard back from the DM, which is frustrating for me, but I'll make plans anyway... I've decided upon the following feats: 1. Killoren Ancient 3. Practiced Spellcaster (Not decided which, Druid or Wiz, yet - probably Wiz) 6. Companion Spellbond 9. Practiced Spellcaster (Probably) 12. Natural Spell My plan is to go Druid 3/Wiz 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10. I'm going to make the wizard side a Conjurer (banning evocation and illusion), and assuming the DM allows it, I'll be taking the Conjurer varient from the PHBII, that will let me teleport 10 ft. Int mod times per day as an immediate action. As I said before, I'd like to focus on Battlefield control, and also ability damage, disease, and some status effects (stunning, nauseated). As such, here is a preliminary spell list that I will focus on. Any opinions on this would be appreciated. Wizard spells Wiz 1 – Benign Transposition (SpC), True Strike, Corrosive Grasp (SpC), Orb of Fire, Lesser (SpC), Spirit Worm (SpC), Slide (SpC), Shivering Touch, Lesser (FrB), Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall. 2 – Ice Darts (FrB), Wraithstrike (SpC/CA), False Life, Baleful Transposition (SpC), Ray of Stupidity (SpC), Heroics (SpC), Slide, Greater (SpC) 3 – Mind Poison (SpC), Contagious Fog (SpC), Nauseating Breath? (SpC), Shivering Touch (FrB) 4 – Wall of Sand (SpC - D5), Orb of Acid (SpC), Blast of Flame? (SpC), Flame Whips (SpC) 5 – Lightning Leap (CM), Cloudkill, Night’s Caress (SpC), Mind Frost (FrB) 6 –
#8 eldong Mar 11, 2008 12:50:41	There's an elf variant that gives you +1 spell per level, and you gain 3 at each level...for simply *not* specializing! I'd go that route, for an arcane heirophant...
#9 mittenninja Mar 11, 2008 13:04:17	IIRC AH doesn't grant you wildshape if you don't already have it. EDIT: Yep, just progresses it if you already have it. "If you do not already posses the ability, you gain no new ability to wild shape."
#10 ksbsnowowl Mar 11, 2008 13:04:21	I specifically wish to play a Killoren, so that's not a option. Besides, you truely do get a large majority of the Wizard Evocation spells on the Druid list, in some form or other (Flame Strike rather than Fireball, etc.) And many others are somewhat replicated via conjuration (Ice Darts are similar to Scorching Ray). I've not found the loss too painful. And I'll enjoy playing around with my 10 ft teleports. Cast touch spell, move in, teleport through BBEG's reach, and lay on the pain.
#11 ksbsnowowl Mar 11, 2008 13:10:42	IIRC AH doesn't grant you wildshape if you don't already have it. EDIT: Yep, just progresses it if you already have it. Nope, it specifically gives the example of a character with less than 5 druid levels getting it because the Druid and AH levels stack. It then specifies (and clarifies its first sentence) that if you do not have Druid levels, you do not gain wildshape. Let's include more of that quote, why don't we? If you do not already possess the ability, you gain no new ability to wildshape. However, you add your arcane hierophant level to your druid level and gain the wild shape ability of a druid of the resulting level... [Druid 4/Wiz 3/AH 3 wildshapes as Druid 7]... If you are not a druid,... you do not gain the ability to wild shape.
#12 green_eyes Mar 11, 2008 13:12:55	Pst, the OP wants to play a Killoren. That's not an elf, FYI.
#13 mittenninja Mar 11, 2008 13:16:48	Wow, never caught that before. I always thought it was a "only if you have wild shape you progress it" thing. Nevermind then.
#14 braithwaite Mar 11, 2008 15:57:07	Good point about the Will save or dies from Enchantment. I disagree with you about necromancy though. If you are going to put many of your wildshape forms to use, you'll need the extra hitpoints from False Life and possibly Vampiric Touch. Heart of Earth (CMage? or CChamp? look it up) is a level 4ish hour per level buff that gives you double your caster level in HP and can be burned to give yourself a short term stoneskin. Can be cast by druids or wizards and replaces false life in my opinion. Vampiric touch is still pretty good tho.
#15 pfooti Mar 11, 2008 16:16:55	Heart of earth is also a druid spell at a lower level (3, I think). Also, the way I understand DR, having the stoneskin effect (for free, no less) means you're not afraid of constructs anymore when you're in wildshape. Since you've got DR/adamantine, your natural attacks should penetrate DR/adamantine too. Not as big a deal for ksb, though, who looks to be shying away from the big bear wildshape route.
#16 jameswilliamogle Mar 11, 2008 16:46:13	Alacritious Congitation + Versatile Spellcaster: use spell slots from either side to power the other's spells known of one level higher spontaneously. I find it invaluable in theurgic builds (and its not really that inefficient: you don't really have enough opportunity to use all your daily spells, after all).
#17 sinfire_titan Mar 11, 2008 16:48:46	Wiz 1/Druid 4/Mt 2/AH 10/MT 4 Feats: 1st: Precocious Apprentice 3rd: Free (Metamagic is nice) 6th: Free (Reserve Feat perhaps) 9th: Natural Spell 12th: Free 15th: Free 18th: Free Alternate Class Features: Focused Specialist (Conjuration or Transmutation) (CM), banning Enchantment, Necromancy/Abjuration, and Evocation/Illusion. Druid nets you several good Evocation spells, so you aren't losing out there. I say Illusion because using a 4th or 7th level spell to mimic anything between 1st-6th level is a waste of a slot, no matter what people will tell you about it. Evocation has several very versatile spells, and is meant to be a strategic school the way Conjuration is. Necromancy or Abjuration is a negligible lose, seeing as Druid lets you keep Dispel and such Abjuration would probably be the best bet (unless you want Maw of Chaos). And Enchantment is a given. How it works: Loophole between the wordings of Precocious Apprentice and Focused Specialist allows for a potent trick. PA gives a single 2nd level spell slot from which you are able to cast a single spell. Focused Specialist makes you ditch that slot to get two more in its place, and those are not tied to PA by any means, so unhindered 2nd level Wizard spells provided they are your specialty school. And when you hit Druid 3rd, normally PA would switch the 2nd level Wizard slot over to Druid. It can't, because it is no longer there. And you retain the ability to cast 2nd level Wizard spells, thus qualifying you for Mystic Theurge. Natural Spell at 9th, the soonest you can enter AH. Note: This build will probably tick off your DM. Talk it over with him prior to making it, and let him know what you are doing exactly as it will be done.
#18 ksbsnowowl Mar 11, 2008 18:03:17	Wiz 1/Druid 4/Mt 2/AH 10/MT 4 How it works: Loophole between the wordings of Precocious Apprentice and Focused Specialist allows for a potent trick. PA gives a single 2nd level spell slot from which you are able to cast a single spell. Focused Specialist makes you ditch that slot to get two more in its place, and those are not tied to PA by any means, so unhindered 2nd level Wizard spells provided they are your specialty school. And when you hit Druid 3rd, normally PA would switch the 2nd level Wizard slot over to Druid. It can't, because it is no longer there. And you retain the ability to cast 2nd level Wizard spells, thus qualifying you for Mystic Theurge. Natural Spell at 9th, the soonest you can enter AH. Note: This build will probably tick off your DM. Talk it over with him prior to making it, and let him know what you are doing exactly as it will be done. I'd not heard of this before. The precocious apprentice trick was never very appealing to me, in large part due to its shakey legality, but this has me intrigued. Now, which book is Precocious Apprentice in...? Edit: Found it; it's in a wierd spot in Comp Arcane. I'm intrigued, but it would force me to take my first level as a wizard, which would cost me 4 assured HP's, and cost me 8 skill points. It certainly is an interesting option, and I'd never looked at that alternate class feature before (the Focused Specialist). I'll have to see exactly how much optimizing the DM will allow. If he's ok with it, I'll probably do it, playing somewhat more as a druid, but being the group's arcane go-to guy. I I can do it, I'll probably drop Abjuration as my third school (having lost Abjuration, Evocation, and Illusion). I didn't see much on the abjuration list that I wanted, other than ones I already get from Druid (Protection from Energy, et al). I'll really have to give this some thought.
#19 phoenix00 Mar 11, 2008 19:16:43	Heart of Earth (CMage? or CChamp? look it up) is a level 4ish hour per level buff that gives you double your caster level in HP and can be burned to give yourself a short term stoneskin. Can be cast by druids or wizards and replaces false life in my opinion. Vampiric touch is still pretty good tho. replace it? It compliments it, due to MIC saying temp hp from other sources now stacks.
#20 jameswilliamogle Mar 11, 2008 19:34:56	replace it? It compliments it, due to MIC saying temp hp from other sources now stacks. Wasn't that rules compendium? Anyways, yeah, they stack.
#21 phoenix00 Mar 11, 2008 20:15:15	Wasn't that rules compendium? Anyways, yeah, they stack. one or the other I am away from my books right now so I can't check
#22 ksbsnowowl Mar 12, 2008 20:23:38	So I got a reply from my DM, and much of it looks fine. He'll allow the Precocious Apprentice/Focused Specialist "trick," but there are a few other issues I'll have to work around. I'll share the heart of the emails with you, so you can better assist me, but I first want to state that I have no issue with DM's altering the rules, so long as they let the players know beforehand, especially during character creation. As I'm still 2 weeks away from my first joining of the game (family weekend was already planned for their next session), I've got time to work with these new "rules." My first letter to the DM I've researched some more stuff, and altered a few of the fine points of the character, though I'm still planning to play a Killoren Arcane Hierophant. At the moment, I've got two alternate builds, depending on what you'll allow. You did say that you encourage optimizing one's character, but everything must be done with DM approval, of course. In either case, I'm interested in taking the Immediate Magic Wizard alternate class feature from the PHBII, and there is a decent chance I'll want to take the Focused Specialist alternate class feature from Complete Mage. I'm planning on being a Conjurer, and giving up the schools of Abjuration, Illusion, and Evocation (or only 2 of those, if the Focused Specialist alternate class feature is not allowed). The less optimized approach is to merely go Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10, with the feats Practiced Spellcaster, Killoren Ancient, and Companion Spellbond (PHBII) - that is assuming a starting level of 6th (I'd adjust as needed). I'd then go on to take Practiced Spellcaster again at 9th, and Natural Spell at 12th. The more optimized build would a Wizard 1/Druid 4/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge +3, taking Precocious Apprentice (Comp Arcane p.181) and the Focused Specialist Wiz alternate class feature from Complete Mage. That feat and the alt class feature combine to give the first level wizard two 2nd level spell slots in his specialty school as a 1st level wizard. It is fully within the rules as they are printed, but it may be too powerful for your game, and I would have no issue with you disallowing it. Again, it just depends how optimized you want my character to be. Also, I wanted to ask, what books can I choose spells from? Thus far I've been looking mostly at the PHB, the Spell Compendium, and Frostburn, though there are a few others from a scattering of books that I'm interested in (a few from the PHBII, a few from Comp Mage, etc.)
#23 sinfire_titan Mar 12, 2008 20:54:08	So I got a reply from my DM, and much of it looks fine. He'll allow the Precocious Apprentice/Focused Specialist "trick," but there are a few other issues I'll have to work around. I'll share the heart of the emails with you, so you can better assist me, but I first want to state that I have no issue with DM's altering the rules, so long as they let the players know beforehand, especially during character creation. As I'm still 2 weeks away from my first joining of the game (family weekend was already planned for their next session), I've got time to work with these new "rules." My first letter to the DM I've researched some more stuff, and altered a few of the fine points of the character, though I'm still planning to play a Killoren Arcane Hierophant. At the moment, I've got two alternate builds, depending on what you'll allow. You did say that you encourage optimizing one's character, but everything must be done with DM approval, of course. In either case, I'm interested in taking the Immediate Magic Wizard alternate class feature from the PHBII, and there is a decent chance I'll want to take the Focused Specialist alternate class feature from Complete Mage. I'm planning on being a Conjurer, and giving up the schools of Abjuration, Illusion, and Evocation (or only 2 of those, if the Focused Specialist alternate class feature is not allowed). The less optimized approach is to merely go Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10, with the feats Practiced Spellcaster, Killoren Ancient, and Companion Spellbond (PHBII) - that is assuming a starting level of 6th (I'd adjust as needed). I'd then go on to take Practiced Spellcaster again at 9th, and Natural Spell at 12th. The more optimized build would a Wizard 1/Druid 4/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge +3, taking Precocious Apprentice (Comp Arcane p.181) and the Focused Specialist Wiz alternate class feature from Complete Mage. That feat and the alt class feature combine to give the first level wizard two 2nd level spell slots in his specialty school as a 1st level wizard. It is fully within the rules as they are printed, but it may be too powerful for your game, and I would have no issue with you disallowing it. Again, it just depends how optimized you want my character to be. Also, I wanted to ask, what books can I choose spells from? Thus far I've been looking mostly at the PHB, the Spell Compendium, and Frostburn, though there are a few others from a scattering of books that I'm interested in (a few from the PHBII, a few from Comp Mage, etc.)
#24 ksbsnowowl Mar 12, 2008 22:04:23	Note: Obtain Familiar is your friend. Yeah... I don't think teleporting 10 ft 4 or 5 times per day is really worth a feat though. Don't get me wrong - it could be a nice, handy ability to have, but I don't think it's worth a feat in a build that's already rather feat-starved.
#25 sinfire_titan Mar 13, 2008 0:06:37	Yeah... I don't think teleporting 10 ft 4 or 5 times per day is really worth a feat though. Don't get me wrong - it could be a nice, handy ability to have, but I don't think it's worth a feat in a build that's already rather feat-starved. Try 10+. Most 20th level Wizards have Int's in the 30's, so the trade is really fair. If you want to keep the familiar, then use either Obtain Familiar (which grants it again) or Dimension Step (or whatever that Reserve feat is called. CM) to get the best of both worlds.
#26 andyjames Mar 13, 2008 0:58:23	Doesn't the Arcane Hierophant simply states that you apply all arcane caster levels to the animal companion to figure out its familiar abilities? It doesn't actually requires that you have or can have a familiar?
#27 green_eyes Mar 13, 2008 1:01:33	Also about those wildshape rules http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=639448 - Read the beginning of this thread.
#28 ksbsnowowl Mar 13, 2008 5:06:20	Doesn't the Arcane Hierophant simply states that you apply all arcane caster levels to the animal companion to figure out its familiar abilities? It doesn't actually requires that you have or can have a familiar? That's exactly what it says. I pointed this out in my last email to the DM. I've not gotten a response yet.
#29 nordicbirch Mar 13, 2008 10:41:20	Since you're going focused conjurer and thinking whether to take the abrupt jaunt ACF or not... Check out Being God (the TreantMonk guide that was mentioned earlier in the thread)
#30 pfooti Mar 13, 2008 10:45:02	My 0.02$ Abrupt jaunt is spectacular. My focused conjurer has it, and it saves him from full attacks and grapples, 8/day. You have to be smart about using it, but since it's an immediate action, you can really annoy your DM with it, especially if you're not a frontliner. I'd pay a feat for it, although my character doesn't have a familiar for other reasons anyway (he needed to take Leadership because the party was healer-less).
#31 trackstar Mar 13, 2008 16:04:04	I'm a fan of the AH built from wizard and druid. I have fun playing with it by making my school focus enchantment and buffing my animal companion and sending it to battle while controlling the battlefield with enchantment spells. Assuming all books and magazines this is what I've gone with: 3 druid 3 wizard *7 Geomancer (lets you make intelligence or wisdom your main casting stat, intelligence is the right choice) *7 Arcane Heirophant Feats: Spell Focus Enchantment, tattoo focus(enchantment), natural spell, Faery Mysteries Int., Insightful Reflexes, Keen Intellect, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment, Practiced Caster Arcane, Practiced Caster divine *Make sure you switch between geomancer and AH as you level to optimize the casting progression and intelligence for casting druid spells.
#32 andyjames Mar 13, 2008 16:06:00	I'm a fan of the AH built from wizard and druid. I have fun playing with it by making my school focus enchantment and buffing my animal companion and sending it to battle while controlling the battlefield with enchantment spells. Assuming all books and magazines this is what I've gone with: 3 druid 3 wizard 7 Geomancer (lets you make intelligence or wisdom your main casting stat, intelligence is the right choice) 7 Arcane Heirophant Feats: Spell Focus Enchantment, tattoo focus(enchantment), natural spell, Faery Mysteries Int., Insightful Reflexes, Keen Intellect, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment, Practiced Caster Arcane, Practiced Caster divine Geomancer only advances one side of your casting. Why would you want to do that in a dual caster build?
#33 trackstar Mar 13, 2008 16:11:14	Geomancer only advances one side of your casting. Why would you want to do that in a dual caster build? For the benefit of being able to focus on one stat ability. Intelligence. The skill points and high spell saves will pay off. And oh yea, Faery Mysteries Int. from dargon magazine lets you use intelligence for hit points instead of constitution. Also Keen intellect lets you use your intelligence for will saves and insightful reflexes lets you use your intelligence for reflex saves. You basically want to pump your intelligence big time in this build. You get tons of hit points, super high saves, super high spell DC's, etc etc. All combined, its huge.
#34 andyjames Mar 13, 2008 16:22:16	For the benefit of being able to focus on one stat ability. Intelligence. The skill points and high spell saves will pay off. And oh yea, Faery Mysteries Int. from dargon magazine lets you use intelligence for hit points instead of constitution. All combined, its huge. Oh. You are advancing Druid casting with Geomancer, not Wizard. So, basically, you are making a hp monster for 3 lost casting levels?
#35 trackstar Mar 13, 2008 16:52:46	Well it depends on what you want to do but in my case I always progressed both with wizard progressing a little more than druid for the purpose of getting better enchanting spells. The druid spells mostly went to buffing the animal companion. And since you missed this in your quote: "Also Keen intellect lets you use your intelligence for will saves and insightful reflexes lets you use your intelligence for reflex saves. You basically want to pump your intelligence big time in this build. You get tons of hit points, super high saves, super high spell DC's, etc etc."
#36 andyjames Mar 13, 2008 17:00:49	Well it depends on what you want to do but in my case I always progressed both with wizard progressing a little more than druid for the purpose of getting better enchanting spells. The druid spells mostly went to buffing the animal companion. And since you missed this in your quote: "Also Keen intellect lets you use your intelligence for will saves and insightful reflexes lets you use your intelligence for reflex saves. You basically want to pump your intelligence big time in this build. You get tons of hit points, super high saves, super high spell DC's, etc etc." Wait, wait, wait. You are saying that with the above build, you have, at the end of the day 13 Druid caster levels and 14 Wizard caster levels at ECL 20? If that is so, I really don't see how it is any good. You are only getting level 7 spells, and you have burnt quite a number of feats. The opportunity costs are way to high, IMO.
#37 trackstar Mar 13, 2008 23:15:34	It just depends on what your shooting for. If you want a pur caster then its not the right choice, if you want a good all around character then it is.
#38 andyjames Mar 14, 2008 0:02:03	My Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/AH 10/MT 3-4 would disagree with you there. The spells really made up for the all-roundedness as I had at least 2 back-up plans available in every combat/situation (it was really God mode with this beast).
#39 ksbsnowowl Mar 14, 2008 0:08:42	It just depends on what your shooting for. If you want a pur caster then its not the right choice, if you want a good all around character then it is. Well, in this case it is neither a good choice nor an available option, as my DM stated (in the email I posted) that once I start a PrC I must finish it. Thus, I couldn't hop back and forth, as you suggested. And as I stated in the OP that I'm fulfilling the role of the party mage, I'm shooting for pretty much a pure caster, and by your own words, "[it's] not the right choice." Still haven't heard back from the DM about my last email, but i do have wealth guidelines. I'll get the standard starting wealth for a character of my level (which could be either 5th or 6th; it depends upon if the group advances during this next game that I can't attend, before I join them). So, standard wealth for 5th or 6th level, no more than 1/4 of it spent on any one item. In either case, the obvious choices (periapt of wisdom, wilding clasp) are still out of reach, as I'll only have 2250 gp or 3250 gp as my limit on a single item. I thought Boots of Elven Kind would be decent. I plan on making use of the Chameleon spell from Complete Arcane (Drd 3, +10 comp bonus to hide for 1 hr/level) for times I need to scout around. A ring of protection +1 wouldn't be bad, as my AC will be rather low - I'll mostly be relying upon mage armor for a level or two yet, and even after I enter Arcane Hierophant, magic leather armor isn't going to be much better for a long while. Any good ideas that "break the mold" of standard basic items that every character tries to have? I do have the Magic Item Compendium, and the DM seemed quite pleased that I have it (he does not himself), so maybe there are good cheap items from there that I've not noticed yet?
#40 andyjames Mar 14, 2008 0:14:35	Well, in this case it is neither a good choice nor an available option, as my DM stated (in the email I posted) that once I start a PrC I must finish it. Thus, I couldn't hop back and forth, as you suggested. And as I stated in the OP that I'm fulfilling the role of the party mage, I'm shooting for pretty much a pure caster, and by your own words, "[it's] not the right choice." Still haven't heard back from the DM about my last email, but i do have wealth guidelines. I'll get the standard starting wealth for a character of my level (which could be either 5th or 6th; it depends upon if the group advances during this next game that I can't attend, before I join them). So, standard wealth for 5th or 6th level, no more than 1/4 of it spent on any one item. In either case, the obvious choices (periapt of wisdom, wilding clasp) are still out of reach, as I'll only have 2250 gp or 3250 gp as my limit on a single item. I thought Boots of Elven Kind would be decent. I plan on making use of the Chameleon spell from Complete Arcane (Drd 3, +10 comp bonus to hide for 1 hr/level) for times I need to scout around. A ring of protection +1 wouldn't be bad, as my AC will be rather low - I'll mostly be relying upon mage armor for a level or two yet, and even after I enter Arcane Hierophant, magic leather armor isn't going to be much better for a long while. Any good ideas that "break the mold" of standard basic items that every character tries to have? I do have the Magic Item Compendium, and the DM seemed quite pleased that I have it (he does not himself), so maybe there are good cheap items from there that I've not noticed yet? In this case, be Wiz 3/Druid 4 or Wiz 4/Druid 3 before going into AH, and then into MT. You will miss out on 9th level spells for one side, though. There isn't much that you need other than +stat items as a AH. That was all my old AH truly had (the other stuff were all cast-offs from the party and I was just using them to fill in item slots for fun). If you can't think of anything, keep a large chunk of it as free cash and think about buying stuff after the game starts if your DM allows that.
#41 green_eyes Mar 14, 2008 1:23:31	You could get a lesser metamagic rod of Extend. That will help with the buffs.
#42 jameswilliamogle Mar 14, 2008 6:50:06	Rod of Shadowshaping in CM is really nice. Shadowcraft Mage-Light in one item.
#43 tytalus Mar 14, 2008 7:29:54	I'm intrigued, but it would force me to take my first level as a wizard, which would cost me 4 assured HP's... True for the first level, but the difference between the average HP of a Wiz1/Druid1 and a Druid1/Wiz1 is only 2 HP. Doesn't seem like a big deal, although the skill point loss is a pain.
#44 tytalus Mar 14, 2008 7:45:19	Any good ideas that "break the mold" of standard basic items that every character tries to have? I do have the Magic Item Compendium, and the DM seemed quite pleased that I have it (he does not himself), so maybe there are good cheap items from there that I've not noticed yet? Healing Belt is decent, especially since you can't spontaneously cast Cures. Alternatively, a Wand of Lesser Vigor is good, too. Both give you some healing self-sufficiency and allow you to do (minor) backup healing. 750gp each Other neat low-cost items: - Quaal's feather token: tree (useful and fits thematically), 500gp - Arcanist's gloves (for the extra caster level 2x day), 500gp - Enduring Amulet (for fire & cold resistance), 1500gp More standard choices: - Handy Haversack (always useful), ring of wizardry, pearl of power, cloak of protection +1. You might also want to check if one of the MIC relics can be adapted to your god; some of them can be obtained relatively cheaply.
#45 ksbsnowowl Mar 14, 2008 9:38:11	You could get a lesser metamagic rod of Extend. That will help with the buffs. Oooo - that's a great idea. I'll just have to get it upgraded (or buy a second, more powerful one) as we advance in levels. The one druid I played before this had extend spell, and it was always quite useful. Healing Belt is decent, especially since you can't spontaneously cast Cures. Alternatively, a Wand of Lesser Vigor is good, too. Both give you some healing self-sufficiency and allow you to do (minor) backup healing. 750gp each Yeah, a wand of CLW and a wand of lesser vigor both sound like good ideas. Other neat low-cost items: - Quaal's feather token: tree (useful and fits thematically), 500gp - Arcanist's gloves (for the extra caster level 2x day), 500gp - Enduring Amulet (for fire & cold resistance), 1500gp More standard choices: - Handy Haversack (always useful), ring of wizardry, pearl of power, cloak of protection +1. You might also want to check if one of the MIC relics can be adapted to your god; some of them can be obtained relatively cheaply. Had a Quaal's feather token with my previous druid - it was a means of emergency escape via Transport via Plants. It may well be useful again. Those arcanists gloves may be a great investment. They'll lengthen Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, and a few other key spells. Good suggestion. I also noticed the Anklet of Translocation in the MIC. It would be a useful investment if the DM doesn't allow me to take the Sudden Jaunt alternate class ability. The Healing Belt does look good. I might just get that in place of the wand of CLW. And the pearl of power was already sitting in the back of my mind. I should have mentioned it before. Excellent suggestions thus far, thank you!
#46 pfooti Mar 14, 2008 10:02:03	Healing belt is great. The funny thing is, they don't have an attunement or anything, so as your character advances in wealth, it's pretty cost-effective to have two or three of them. 6d8 healing per day is pretty good for the price, since it doesn't run out of charges. I'd consider staying away from most items that fill bodyslots and are more in-combat, though. You'll be wildshaping soon enough, and then the anklet of translocation is pretty useless. Depending on the campaign, an everfull mug and an endless rations (both around 300g apiece, IIRC) are good investments. Food? What food? A wand of Mage Armor, for both you and your animal companion, will help save some precious wizard-side spell slots.
#47 callen Mar 14, 2008 13:24:40	My 0.02$ Abrupt jaunt is spectacular. My focused conjurer has it, and it saves him from full attacks and grapples, 8/day. You have to be smart about using it, but since it's an immediate action, you can really annoy your DM with it, especially if you're not a frontliner. I'd pay a feat for it, although my character doesn't have a familiar for other reasons anyway (he needed to take Leadership because the party was healer-less). I agree, though I've found it depends on the character. Right now I have a charging warrior I built as Fighter 1 / Focused Conjurer 6 with Abrupt Jaunt / Eldritch Knight 1+. (I thought it would be more interesting than a straight charger.) I'm using Abrupt Jaunt both to get out of nasty attacks and to set up Leap Attack (teleport 10' to set up the charge). It's fabulous there. Chris
#48 ksbsnowowl Mar 19, 2008 22:22:32	I'm meeting with the DM tomorrow evening to discuss and finalize rules, as well as character background. Due to the limitation on Mystic Theurge, and thus pushing me more toward Druid, the question I must ask myself is, should I go Wiz 2/Druid 4 or Wiz 1/Druid 6 before my entry into Arcane Hierophant? The first will advance my wizard casting one level sooner, but will also slow my druid casting. The second will make me more of a pure druid with the bonuses of extra wizard casting for a large chunk of my career, and it will allow me to take Natural Spell at 6th level (I think; depends on the order of operations of leveling up). It will of course preclude me from taking Practiced Spellcaster for my wizard side until 9th level. So, which do you all suggest as being the better option for AH entry?
#49 aftercrescent Mar 19, 2008 22:59:32	I just skimmed, so I don't know what level you are starting at, but it is below 6, take the second option. Natural spell early is nice. If you're starting at higher level, take the first one... That's my take anyways.
#50 pfooti Mar 20, 2008 9:59:11	I'm AFB, and surprisingly, there's nothing about the order of operations during leveling in the SRD that I can find. But I do know it's in the PHB. And I'm pretty sure that you can't get natural spell at level 6 if that's the level you get your wildshaping. From what I recall, you get BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Feats, Class Features in that order. Which is weird, and I'm sure your DM will cut you some slack there. And of course, I could be wrong, too.
#51 aftercrescent Mar 20, 2008 10:19:49	I just checked my PHB, pfooti, and you are close. Feats do come before Class features, though. I would just assume that ksb would take something like Dr5/Wiz1/Dr1 in order to qualify. The level shuffling isn't too hard.
#52 pfooti Mar 20, 2008 10:53:13	The problem is that precocious apprentice needs to be taken at character level 1 and wizard level 1, so you must take wizard1 at CL1 to do the early entry trick.
#53 callen Mar 20, 2008 12:41:10	I just checked my PHB, pfooti, and you are close. Feats do come before Class features, though. I would just assume that ksb would take something like Dr5/Wiz1/Dr1 in order to qualify. The level shuffling isn't too hard. No, that is not true. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. Thus if a class feature is the prerequisite, then gaining that feature at that level allows you to take the feat. No level shuffling is needed. Just take Druid 5 at 6th level. Chris
#54 wazabo Mar 22, 2008 11:22:39	Wiz 1 druid 6 AH 10 druid 3 in my opinion is a really nice build. You're like a full druid with wizardry enhancement. Going into MT probably makes you stronger, but it's really off-rpg. Too bad you have only one feat at level one, Cloudy conjuration would be very nice.
#55 ksbsnowowl Mar 25, 2008 8:41:52	So I had that meeting with the DM a few days ago. Only big kink in my plans is that due to campaign reasons I need to be from a jungle area, rather than the polar region as I'd liked. I'm somewhat disappointed about that, as there were lots of neat spells I was interested in from Frostburn, and unless we take a jaunt to the far north (unlikely), I'll not have a chance to "learn" of them. But, that aside, I am really looking forward to this character. So I'm mechanically starting as Wizard for my first HD, and gaining precocious apprentice, with the focused specialist varient. I'm coming in at 6th level, as Wizard 1/Druid 5 (going Wiz 1/Druid 6 for entry to AH). I'm looking things over, and the only thing I'm questioning is if I should put the 18 in Intelligence, or shift it to Wisdom, and, if I do put the 18 in Int, should I increase it to 20 by 8th level? Or should I just leave it at 18 and boost my Wisdom from the start? I had originally planned on boosting Int to 20 first, then increasing my Wis, but with the shift in caster levels away from Wizard, I'm tempted to play it more like a druid, and just maintain the 18 Int. The one advantage of boosting my Int though is that it would keep the DC's of my highest level Druid and Wiz spells about even for quite a long time. Now I'm really thinking about having the 18 Int, and just boosting Wisdom from the start. Thoughts? Well, here is my build for play entry at 6th level (still haven't finalized equipment yet): Killoren Wiz 1/Druid 5 1. Wizard 1 - Scribe Scroll, Precocious Apprentice 2. Druid 1 3. Druid 2 - Killoren Ancient 4. Druid 3 5. Druid 4 6. Druid 5 - Natural Spell ............................................. 7. Druid 6 8. Arcane Hierophant 1 9. Arcane Hierophant 2 - Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) 10. AH 3 11. AH 4 12. AH 5 - Companion Spellbond 13. AH 6 14. AH 7 15. AH 8 - ? 16. AH 9 17. AH 10 18. Mystic Theurge 1 - ? 19. MT 2 20. MT 3 I'll be starting play with a Leopard animal companion (from the Druid level -3 list), and will later upgrade him to a Tiger, and then a Dire Lion.
#56 The_Orange_Pet Mar 25, 2008 10:41:09	Scouting is good, I agree. As a Druid though, you would probably be better served by simply casting Spider Hand (BoVD). It'll be just as effective and will save you bunches of GP on scouting items.