Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ikildkenny Aug 22, 2008 13:28:41	Hi I'm starting a low-level Campaign next month ... start will be at lvl4 and I thoght of playing a MT ... and I want to enter ist asap ... so I thougt of 3 possible builds: All Human 1) Charisma based: Favoured Soul 1 / Sorc 1 / Monk 1 / MT 1 Feats: Versitile Spellcaster, Hieghten Spell, Ascetic Mage Pros: Uses VS/Heigten Trick to enter asap, 2 spontanous casters, MAD minimal (Dex, Con, Cha), FS for buff and healbot, sorc(monk) for AC and offense/GOD spells, 2*D8 HD, minimum loss for Casterlevel Cons: "wastes" 2 skillpoints (once each for know rel/arc as cc Skill), less versatility due to spont. casters, BAB 0 2) Cha based: Favoured Soul 1 / Warmage 1 / Monk 1 / MT 1 Feats: Versitile Spellcaster, Hieghten Spell, Ascetic Mage Pros: Uses VS/Heigten Trick to enter asap, 2 spontanous casters, MAD minimal (Dex, Con, Cha), FS for buff and healbot, Warmage(monk) for AC and offense spells, 2*D8, 1*d6 HD, minimum loss for Casterlevel Cons: "wastes" 2 skillpoints (once each for know rel/arc as cc Skill), less versatility due to sopnt. casters, "useless" armormored mage (could skip monk for one of the other two- thus less AC (possibly less HP) but light armor), no GOD spells (ok .. minimal but not much), BAB 0 3) Int Based: fucused Conjurer 1 / Archivist 3 / MT 1 Feats: Precautios apprentice, Able learner, practiced spellcaster (aka free) Pros: Precautios apprentice trick to enter with wizard, 2 prepared casters - more versitility, max. use of skillpoints, only one level loss of archivist, good offense/buffs/god-spells, BAB 1, MAD minimal (Dex, Con, Int), more skillpoints (du to high Int), doubled Scribed scroll can be "ACF-d" (or retrained because of house-rule) Cons: 3 levels loss for wizard (= classic entry), less HP (D4 only), later entry in MT, bad AC 4) Cha Based: Favoured Soul 1 / Paladin 2 / Warmage 1 / MT1 Feats: Versitile Spellcaster, Hieghten Spell, free Pros: Uses VS/Heigten Trick to enter asap, 2 spontanous casters, MAD minimal (Dex, Con, Cha), FS for buff and healbot, Warmage for armored mage and offense spells, 2*D10, 1*D8, 1*d6 HD (max. possible), good saves, detct magic at will, smite, BAB 2 Cons: less versatility due to sopnt. casters, no GOD spells (ok .. minimal but not much), high loss of CL (3 each), later entry, code of conduct 5) Cha Based: Favoured Soul 1 / Warlock 1 / Warmage 1 / MT1 Pros: Uses VS/Heigten Trick to enter asap, 2 spontanous casters, MAD minimal (Dex, Con, Cha), FS for buff and healbot, Warmage for armored mage and offense spells, 1*D8, 2*d6 HD, minimum loss for Casterlevel, all-day-buffs, eldrich blast in case I EVER go out of spells Cons: "wastes" 2 skillpoints (once each for know rel/arc as cc Skill), less versatility due to sopnt. casters, no GOD spells (ok .. minimal but not much), BAB 0 So .... Im looking for the best build (CO-wise of course)... he should mainly be a (good) caster that will not fall apart after 1 or 2 hits by the BBEG ... and im not sure what will work best ... please help/suggest other builds... Sorces are: All core (including PHB/DMG II), all Completes, All races books, possibly but rather disliked FR, no Eberon, no DragonMag
#2 natenate Aug 22, 2008 14:12:56	Every single one of those should include Con: Uses Mystic Theurge; can't hold a candle to any single-classed spellcaster at any level after 1st.
#3 jaronk Aug 22, 2008 14:44:41	May I suggest Archivist 4? It does the same thing, only better. You can research all the Wizard spells anyway (since all Wizard spells exist as divine spells, thank you Favored Soul, Cleric, Hexer, and Domain spells). JaronK
#4 gyorscalfneh Aug 22, 2008 15:02:30	I'm quoting this from another forum: Human Archivist 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge 10 with the feats: 1) Heighten Spell, Human) Magical Training and 3) Versatile Spellcaster ... So, Archivist 1/Wizard 2/Mystic Theurge x/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant y Magical training is a regional feat that takes care of the spontaneous casting requirement, so you don't have to lose any more caster levels, and you only have to really worry about one attribute, since Archivist and Wizard share the same casting stat. You do have to be an elf in order to qualify for arcane hierophant, if that's a problem. You end up with wizard CL of 18, and archivist CL of 17, I think. I would go with Mystic Theurge 6, Arcane Hierophant 10, if that's possible (I don't remember all the prereqs off the top of my head). I would also choose the alternative class feature from Unearthed Arcana that replaces your familiar with an animal companion, because otherwise you lose your familiar and don't get much use from the Arcane Hierophant special class features. edit: The upper part of the build I quoted assumes that you're human...obviously you're not, you'd need to be an elf, so this build would require a single flaw to pull off. Alternatively, you could go with Ur-Priest and be any race you want - I'll post up a skeleton build if you want - but then you'd need to be evil.
#5 ikildkenny Aug 22, 2008 16:30:54	Con: Uses Mystic Theurge; can't hold a candle to any single-classed spellcaster at any level after 1st. I know that .. thats not the point^^ May I suggest Archivist 4? It does the same thing, only better. You can research all the Wizard spells anyway (since all Wizard spells exist as divine spells, thank you Favored Soul, Cleric, Hexer, and Domain spells). ... cons same as with the wizard/archivis build ... only that I have more spells and lose only one CL ... that somehow makes the wizard /archivist build more attractive to me ... Magical training is a regional feat that takes care of the spontaneous casting requirement ... thats new ... you only need to be able to cast 2nd lvl divine and arcane spells ... ...arcane hierophant, if that's a problem. You end up with wizard CL of 18, and archivist CL of 17, I think. afaik I must be able to speek druidic... not sure whether that willl work ... (and going into abjurant champ after MT gives me max. Caster Level anyways (Divine Power)) Alternatively, you could go with Ur-Priest and be any race you want - I'll post up a skeleton build if you want - but then you'd need to be evil. ... except for the evil part (id rather go with good in some way ... lawfull evil at best) that still will lose me alot of CL... thanks for all the advice so far ... any more suggestions?
#6 nunkuruji Aug 22, 2008 16:56:18	Druid 3 / Sorc 1 / MT 4 / Arcane Hiero 10 / MT 2 VS/Heighten Better hit dice Wiz5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / MT Evil
#7 gyorscalfneh Aug 22, 2008 17:08:59	Arcane Hierophant doesn't require that you be able to speak Druidic. You're thinking of the Fochlucan Lyrist. You need Magical Training in order to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster, which requires the "ability to spontaneously cast spells". You of course need Versatile Spellcaster to get into Mystic Theurge early. Abjurant Champion only advances your arcane casting, and will be a sucky class for you unless you have fighter levels (in which case you will be a ****** caster). When I said "caster level" I was talking about your actual level of spellcasting, i.e. spells known, spells per day, and all that. You could end up with 20 caster level in both Wizard and Archivist if you took practiced spellcaster twice, but I think that would be a waste of feat slots. Regardless, 17th effective level+ as a wizard or archivist is all you need to cast 9th level spells (and you would have 18 effective level as a wizard and 17th effective level as an archivist). Arcane Hierophant is also better than Mystic Theurge because it gives you d6 hit die, and some special abilities, while mystic theurge just advances your spellcasting (which Arcane Hierophant does as well).
#8 gyorscalfneh Aug 22, 2008 17:14:54	Druid 3 / Sorc 1 / MT 4 / Arcane Hiero 10 / MT 2 VS/Heighten Better hit dice Wiz5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / MT Evil Druid/ Sorcerer works well enough, but you have to waste points on two different casting stats. I've seen the wizard / mindbender/ ur-priest build before - using Earth Spell to qualify? - and it is also very good, though I think you only need one level of Ur-Priest, and the OP said he doesn't want to play an evil character.
#9 natenate Aug 22, 2008 20:26:40	Druid/ Sorcerer works well enough, but you have to waste points on two different casting stats. I've seen the wizard / mindbender/ ur-priest build before - using Earth Spell to qualify? - and it is also very good, though I think you only need one level of Ur-Priest, and the OP said he doesn't want to play an evil character. You take Ur-Priest 2 anyway for Turn Undead for divine feats, so no need for early qualification cheese. A favorite of mine is Elf (any), Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Heirophant 8/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Contemplative 1, using Elf weapon proficiencies to qualify for SA and taking SotMI early to get enough Kn: Religion ranks for Contemplative. That gets 19/20 animal companion with Natural Bond, 8 levels of Familiar abilities, full SA spellcasting, and 18/20 Druid spellcasting. Plus you start out as a single-classed Druid so the character is actually playable from the early levels.
#10 sinfire_titan Aug 23, 2008 11:54:36	Wiz 1/Druid 5/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10 Use Precocious Apprentice+Focused Specialist loophole to enter MT at 4th level. thus only putting yourself a level behind Druids of equal level (though tons behind on Wizard's side, this is made up for). This allows you to dump Cha for the most part, allowing you to get stats that are relevant to other abilities.