So weve got almost no magic support other than me and a little healing capabilities of the paladin.
Now my dwarf started out with the following stats, str. 14 dex 14 con 16 int 17 wis 9 and char 6. I took the role of leader in the party and everyone agreed to it and i talked to the DM, my dwarf is 110 years old so he gave me an automatic 3 point boost to wisdom so I could play my character as the voice of reason and wisdom needed to keep the kids out of trouble.
Now hes agreed to let me take cleric next level to improve the parties chances of survivability and has approved of me taking mystic theurge once i qualify for it. More wis boost will come later and for now Ill only have access to low lvl cleric spells anyways so its not going to hurt at first.
So next level I'm going to take my first lvl in cleric and if he approves Practised spellcaster cleric. Later Ill be taking it for wizard as well.
Can anyone give me some advice on how to optimize this situation. The dm has also informed us that hes going to try to avoid killing our characters :D Any advice would be greatly apprieciated. This is for 3.5.
The information you've given is good so far, but before much else can be said (by me, or by others), it would help to know the level of your character, and which books you're allowed to use for character options.
Can anyone give me some advice on how to optimize this situation. The dm has also informed us that hes going to try to avoid killing our characters :D Any advice would be greatly apprieciated. This is for 3.5.
I can't tell you how to optimize a Mystic Theurge, but I can tell you how to optimize the situation. It will require a folding chair and some reading, but it can be done.
1) The two players with absolutely ridiculous characters need to be slapped with a tempest for being the living embodiment of The Stormwind Fallacy. I can't find the original, but I would be surprised if Tempest_Stormwind didn't have it laying around somewhere. The basic gist: Your character doesn't have to suck in order to have good role-playing. A player who creates a low-strength fighter who only punches people and a player who creates a Paladin of Texas Ranger (the Talladega Nights Edition) are obviously in sore need of a tutorial on how not to **** the rest of their party in order to "role-play". Be sure to call them both Steve. Often. Even/especially if their name is not, in fact, Steve. Judging by your post and the other two players in your group, I suppose it's entirely possible that the player of the elf chose "Girl" as her class, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not include him in this.
2) That folding chair I mentioned earlier? Apply it, liberally, to your DM's forehead. No, seriously, he's being the biggest douche of the bunch. Do you know why? Because by flat-out telling you that he won't kill your characters, he allowed... nay, ENCOURAGED, the two Steves to become The Stormwind Fallacy. Their thinking is now "I'm not going to die, so I can suck harder than a black hole. My next character is going to be a blind, double-amputee, rogue who intentionally has a low Dex and no ranks in Move Silently because ROLE-PLAYING!"
3) If all else fails, wait until you're on watch and the rest of the party is sleeping. Drop a fireball, centered on the middle of camp, voluntarily fail your Reflex save, and immolate everyone. Then you (the player) walk off to jion another group whilst whistling a jaunty tune.
A note to all real Steves: I was actually involved in the thread where CryoSilver broke out the Folding Chair of Steve. Don't be offended; his original intent in using "Steve" has been corrupted by the internetz, as so often happens.
[1) The two players with absolutely ridiculous characters need to be slapped with a tempest for being the living embodiment of The Stormwind Fallacy. I can't find the original, but I would be surprised if Tempest_Stormwind didn't have it laying around somewhere. The basic gist: Your character doesn't have to suck in order to have good role-playing. A player who creates a low-strength fighter who only punches people and a player who creates a Paladin of Texas Ranger (the Talladega Nights Edition) are obviously in sore need of a tutorial on how not to **** the rest of their party in order to "role-play". Be sure to call them both Steve. Often. Even/especially if their name is not, in fact, Steve. Judging by your post and the other two players in your group, I suppose it's entirely possible that the player of the elf chose "Girl" as her class, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and not include him in this.
(Psst: You can drop the underscore from my name, or just stick to "Tempest" - WotC added the underscore once their login system changed post-4e.)
The definition I use is over at Dictum Mortuum's. The comments I added there (under the "unknown" name - it didn't register my login) go into more detail on related points that are missing from the definition.
That said, this isn't quite Stormwind Fallacy territory. People commit the fallacy when they claim that weaker characters are better roleplayed, or vice versa. These people are just showing up as poorly built (low Strength + melee focus, for instance) and poorly roleplayed (there's no way a paladin would have been able to make it to level 1 as a wet-your-pants coward). That's a style choice, not necessarily a fallacious one.
Of course, there are such things as wrong style choices - at least to a point. The game makes a few tacit assumptions in the first place, and if you go so far off the deep end of the Low/Low spectrum that you violate those assumptions, you may as well switch to a different system.
D&D is a game about fantasy heroic adventurers. Two (and possibly three) of the characters here do not sound like fantasy heroic adventurers. Therefore, the game will not handle them well.
Just as you wouldn't play Mutants and Masterminds if you weren't interested in being a superhero, or you wouldn't play Exalted if you weren't interested in being a god, you shouldn't play D&D if you're being a weakling coward.
Now, if your players are interested in actually surviving with their concepts, here's a few resources to help.
-Elf: I think you're saying she's a ranger, but RPing her as idealistic and naiive (which is fine - I should note that an elf hits maturity (equivalent of human 15 years) at 120 years of age, so a 17-year-old elf would literally be a child.) Depending on her preferences in combat, though, I'm not sure what she'd find most useful.
-Human fighter: Please tell me the "attitude" is on the character, and not the player - D&D players should always be team players, even if their characters aren't. (As an example, see the Party Optimization Showcase link in my signature? I'm the one playing the hexblade - designed as a foil to other characters, and a notoriously selfish class. Despite this, I myself am still a good team player, even if I express my cooperative side out-of-character rather than during actual dialogue.)
If he's interested in doing nonlethal takedowns, that can actually work - even with low Strength! - but it will take a bit of rule finesse. The easiest way to handle this is to rebuild into an unarmed-variant Swordsage (Tome of Battle) with specific emphasis on Setting Sun and Stone Dragon maneuvers. Setting Sun is all about positioning and nonlethal "soft" martial arts (and allows him to bypass Strength to some degree), while Stone Dragon is about overwhelming power (I'm suggesting it here to compensate for his low Strength, rather than to synergize with it). Note that many maneuvers increase the damage dealt by an attack; if that attack is nonlethal to begin with, then the maneuver deals nonlethal damage.
-Paladin: Dude, you're a paladin. You don't get to wear that title if you don't earn it. No one said being a paladin is easy. In fact, the best answer I've ever seen to "Why did you choose to be a paladin?" was a simple reply from a humble yet valorous knight: "So others do not have to."
For what it's worth, here's the paladin's handbook. Read it, learn well, and go forth and be the light.
And for you, I would suggest following Slagger's advice. The list of Spells That Fvcking Kill People is a good place to start - it's nothing more than a list of spells that will make combats much simpler. There have been books written on the game of playing a wizard, but you won't need to go into quite that much depth if the DM's wearing industrial-grade kiddy gloves. On the flipside, you are not well set up to be a cleric, even with the age boost to Wisdom (which should also apply to your Intelligence and Charisma modifiers if it's what the DM says it is - it shouldn't be, though, since a 110-year-old dwarf is roughly a 25-year-old human). I would forget about the theurge and focus on your arcane strengths.
It's hard to tell anything else without knowing level, books, and so on, but we've already asked for that. I hope this helps somewhat.
I should note that an elf hits maturity (equivalent of human 15 years) at 120 years of age, so a 17-year-old elf would literally be a child.
If I remember correctly, Races of the Wild notes the approximately 120 years of age as being their age of adulthood with regard to elf society, their physical age of maturity being about age 25.
A note to all real Steves: I was actually involved in the thread where CryoSilver broke out the Folding Chair of Steve. Don't be offended; his original intent in using "Steve" has been corrupted by the internetz, as so often happens.
Appology accepted.
At least this time that whole "Steve" thing didn't appear AFTER I'd done some extensive posting on a topic. It wasn't directed at me then but it was a spirited threat and you can never be sure in those days.
As for the original topic I'm in agreement that you're pretty much screwed if your "teammates" are going to act like complete idiots. I don't know what level you're at but I could point out that a "fearful" Paladin should be IMPOSSIBLE after 3rd-level when he'd gaining immunity to fear.
Now looking at your stats it is pointless to take levels in Cleric when you only have WIS 9 as you basically couldn't cast a thing anyway. Personally, your stats make it look like they could belong to a warrior/wizard or "gish" as the Githyanki call them. I'll point out that getting an age related +3 boost to WIS (and with it CHA and INT) should also bring at least -3 to all of your physical ability scores as well; I'll need to look up the aging tables to be certain.
Katie, actually a girl is new to D&D and she made a charater that was supposed to be origionally a human but made the mistake of not fixing the age, So we're playing it as shes in like a 14 year old body with the mentality of a human her age thanks to the background i gave her being raised by a human and not elves and not growing up in an elven society, thus not knowing what it means to be an elf.
The paladin is determined to live up to his three brothers examples and make it as an adventurer, but yes hes scared.
For levels, where all only level two and the first time were working together. So it kinda makes sence.
The dm encourages creativity with the game rules thinking outside of the box, wanna use a spell in a creative way,.. do it. make me not want to look up the rules style. Wanna do something other than I swing my sword, do it being creative will help us recieve rewards in game in experience and equipment. So far were still alive and the game is moving a lot faster than any PBP game I've played before.
Most books are ok hes approved the feat from Complete Arcane. We just have to run it by him first.
And I've already made amazing uses even of just simple cantrips, like prestidigitation that normaly wouldn't even come close to being allowed but hes allowed because of the creativity i put into it.
That's the thing, they're playing their characters well and making use of the stregnths and weaknesses built into them, so far their all a great group and team players, the attitude is only in charecter but we managed to straighten that out IC.
Good to hear about the teamwork. That's promising.
However, something like playing a fighter with sub-14 Strength and self-handicapping yourself even further is not "making use of your weaknesses". It's playing exactly into an existing weakness - sort of like a wizard opting to use a crowbar during combat instead of a spell.
An example of making use of strengths and weaknesses around that concept is constructing an unarmed character who does not make use of Strength. These are quite possible using the Tome of Battle (i.e. Shadow Blade + unarmed strike (possibly unarmed variant Swordsage) + Setting Sun gives you a very capable unarmed fighter who uses Dexterity instead of Strength), but are flatly impossible with the stock Fighter.
I misdiagnosed this before: This is pure Stormwind Fallacy. Your concept does not need to limit your mechanics.
He attacked because a guy that the rest of us couldnt even see had him with a knife at his throat and his character has a bad history with simular experience which is why he wont use a blade, he even managed to alert the rest of the party that we were surrounded by managing to drop a bell he carries just for that purpose off the tower.
And none of that dictates that he must be a fist-using Fighter. It's just RP details. Those are a good thing - when they aren't used as a straitjacket.
Taking a simple trait like "doesn't like fighting with blades" and cramming it into a class that does not work well with that concept might be interesting as a gag, but it does not mean the character is likely to survive or contribute well.
The paladin is determined to live up to his three brothers examples and make it as an adventurer, but yes hes scared.
For levels, where all only level two and the first time were working together. So it kinda makes sence.
Um, no, it actually doesn't.
The overwhelming majority of people in the world have NPC classes and are level 1. Level 2 characters have seen plenty of adventuring and are already pretty potent by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. If you read that article - and you really, really should! - it makes it clear that Aragorn himself is only level 5. That's also about the same point as real-world outstanding individuals - such as world-record-setting Olympic athletes or paradigm-shifting scientists who come along once in a generation or so. Level 2 does not make sense for apprentice-level cowardice and inexperience.
The dm encourages creativity with the game rules thinking outside of the box, wanna use a spell in a creative way,.. do it. make me not want to look up the rules style. Wanna do something other than I swing my sword, do it being creative will help us recieve rewards in game in experience and equipment. So far were still alive and the game is moving a lot faster than any PBP game I've played before.
...
That's another reason I want to theurge, the creativity that means I can combine a lot of spells in a lot of different ways that normally wouldnt be available in a normal D&D session.
First, it isn't surprising you're still alive: He's said he won't kill you.
Second, the game already does everything you suggest as novel. Do not confuse "running within the rules" with "running a slow, tedious, uninteresting game".
Considering your Wisdom is 9, you can't cast any cleric spells in the first place. You won't be able to combine spells in an interesting way if you can't cast them in the first place. Furthermore, as a wizard, the spells you get can already be combined in interesting ways - have you ever read the wizard list? You do not need cleric casting in order to do this.
Even assuming the DM handwaves your spellcasting - which he might, given his cavalier attitude towards the rules - the only thing theurging will buy you is a huge, huge delay in your spellcasting. Especially if you're playing from the low levels: you need to use cheeseball tricks to get into Mystic Theurge before level 6, and you will not be able to do much during at least half of those levels as you qualify for the class.
So I want to give my character access to as many spells per day as I can.
Given the gap between your Intelligence and your Wisdom, you will actually get more spells per day if you stay as a wizard, believe it or not.
If you're going to reply "But no, cantrips!" or something similar, note that a magic item that gives you a continuous Prestidigitation effect (i.e. most of anything you would ever want a cantrip to do, available at will) costs only 1000gp. That's pocket change to most people around levels 4-5 or so - note that this is the same point where you'd begin to qualify for the theurge if you multiclassed. (I make it a point to have an item that does this on almost every one of my characters.) It isn't worth giving up your class for something that cheap.
And were working out a way to boost his wis a little more. He seems to be more than willing to make my character more powerful to help carry the party as it where.
Translation: This is a tacit admission that a cowardly paladin and a poorly-built fighter aren't carrying their weight. See what I wrote above about demographics and the Stormwind Fallacy.
And I've already made amazing uses even of just simple cantrips, like prestidigitation that normaly wouldn't even come close to being allowed but hes allowed because of the creativity i put into it.
This is flat-out wrong. Considering the range of activities that Prestidigitation already allows (note: that was from an official book, so you can hardly say that's bending the rules!), it isn't a matter of "I'm creative, so screw the rules!" - it's more a matter of following the rules already. You're taking a spell that is, in essence, diet Wish and boasting that you were able to be creative with it.
And I've already made amazing uses even of just simple cantrips, like prestidigitation that normaly wouldn't even come close to being allowed but hes allowed because of the creativity i put into it.
This is flat-out wrong. Considering the range of activities that Prestidigitation already allows (note: that was from an official book, so you can hardly say that's bending the rules!), it isn't a matter of "I'm creative, so screw the rules!" - it's more a matter of following the rules already. You're taking a spell that is, in essence, diet Wish and boasting that you were able to be creative with it.
Ok, cant respond to all of that, you make some good points but the characters aren't mine. But allow me to elaborate being creative with prestidigitation: Range 10 feet, limited Cubic areas you can effect per round, etc, etc.
In one round I created a dust tornado that cleared years worth of dust buildup from a good sized room, cleared the air of red dust that was so thick you could only see about 20 feet in it, left it fresh and crisp and added a pleasent aroma to get rid of the smell of the people whod been living in said dust for years with no good method of personal hygene cleaned the occupants of said room, restored luster to metal beams that had been accumulating rust for a couple hundred years and made the dust tornado shrink into my hand making all of it dissappear completly. Leaving a pocket or bubble of fresh clean air.
The people had never seen magic,.. and somehow thought that the magic of the world had been drained away. I wanted to impress them using as little as possible and get the most out of it I could. He let it fly.
I would call this creatively bending the rules of prestigitation.
Ohh and as i mentioned in the first post he already boosted that wisdom score from 9-12 which would give me access to up to second level cleric spells.
In one round I created a dust tornado that cleared years worth of dust buildup from a good sized room, cleared the air of red dust that was so thick you could only see about 20 feet in it, left it fresh and crisp and added a pleasent aroma to get rid of the smell of the people whod been living in said dust for years with no good method of personal hygene cleaned the occupants of said room, restored luster to metal beams that had been accumulating rust for a couple hundred years and made the dust tornado shrink into my hand making all of it dissappear completly. Leaving a pocket or bubble of fresh clean air.
All of the actual effects of that spell are well within Prestidigtation's defined effect, though. There's only two elements from that which come close to bending the rules for Prestidigitation: The scale ("good sized room") and the speed (one round). Since it was out of combat, and the spell lasts for a full hour, though, nothing stops this from being consistent with the rules anyway (it'd just take longer than six seconds and would affect parts of the room sequentially, like a wave of magic moving over the area).
Bending the rules for Prestidigitation might include something like "Transform his hat into a blindfold, rendering him blind" or "tying his shoelaces together while he's running" or similar twists. What you've done is the rules-equivalent of taking 20.
Ohh and as i mentioned in the first post he already boosted that wisdom score from 9-12 which would give me access to up to second level cleric spells.
You still have a good five extra points on Intelligence, and it's an odd score, so +1 at 4th level raises you to 18. Furthermore, it's not so much the raw number of spells that matters so much as their effects, which is largely a function of caster level, as well as spell level.
Let me show you what I mean. I am disregarding cantrips, because of the dirt-cheapness of an infinite Prestidigitation item.
Here's a level 7 mystic theurge with 18 Intelligence and 12 Wisdom.
Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Theurge 1
Wizard spells (CL 4): 4 1st / 3 2nd.
Cleric spells (CL 4): 4+1 1st / 2+1 2nd.
15 individual spells (8 1st level, 5 2nd level, plus one domain spell of each level). Your highest level spell on either side is 2nd, and your CLs are both 4.
Here's a regular level 7 wizard.
Wizard 7
Wizard spells (CL 7): 5 1st / 4 2nd / 3 3rd / 2 4th.
14 individual spells (described above). Your highest level spell is 4th, and your CL is 7.
Both of them get virtually the same number of spells. The second is far more powerful and much better able to support and protect his team. His CL is higher, so his spells last longer, are harder to dispel, have longer ranges, hit more targets, have bigger effects, and punch through SR more reliably. He has access to 4th level spells, which have better effects than 2nd level spells.
I know, I left out ability score boosting items. However, this effect is trivial. If you enhance your Wisdom score, all it buys you in terms of spells per day is a single extra cleric spell of 2nd level, and it costs you money you could have used to enhance your Intelligence (which raises your wizard spell DCs - a spell that the enemy saves against is a spell that is wasted).
This is what I meant when I said a theurge isn't all that hot at low levels, and when I specifically said you'd get about as many spells as a pure wizard. I left out the part where the wizard is much more effective than the theurge. It isn't until the higher levels, and two Practiced Spellcaster feats, that theurges can begin to outclass their single-classed counterparts, unless the theurge used a cheese trick for easy qualification.
Ohh and as i mentioned in the first post he already boosted that wisdom score from 9-12 which would give me access to up to second level cleric spells.
You still have a good five extra points on Intelligence, and it's an odd score, so +1 at 4th level raises you to 18. Furthermore, it's not so much the raw number of spells that matters so much as their effects, which is largely a function of caster level, as well as spell level.
Let me show you what I mean. I am disregarding cantrips, because of the dirt-cheapness of an infinite Prestidigitation item.
Here's a level 7 mystic theurge with 18 Intelligence and 12 Wisdom.
Wizard 3 / Cleric 3 / Theurge 1
Wizard spells (CL 4): 4 1st / 3 2nd.
Cleric spells (CL 4): 4+1 1st / 2+1 2nd.
15 individual spells (8 1st level, 5 2nd level, plus one domain spell of each level). Your highest level spell on either side is 2nd, and your CLs are both 4.
Here's a regular level 7 wizard.
Wizard 7
Wizard spells (CL 7): 5 1st / 4 2nd / 3 3rd / 2 4th.
14 individual spells (described above). Your highest level spell is 4th, and your CL is 7.
Both of them get virtually the same number of spells. The second is far more powerful and much better able to support and protect his team. His CL is higher, so his spells last longer, are harder to dispel, have longer ranges, hit more targets, have bigger effects, and punch through SR more reliably. He has access to 4th level spells, which have better effects than 2nd level spells.
I know, I left out ability score boosting items. However, this effect is trivial. If you enhance your Wisdom score, all it buys you in terms of spells per day is a single extra cleric spell of 2nd level, and it costs you money you could have used to enhance your Intelligence (which raises your wizard spell DCs - a spell that the enemy saves against is a spell that is wasted).
This is what I meant when I said a theurge isn't all that hot at low levels, and when I specifically said you'd get about as many spells as a pure wizard. I left out the part where the wizard is much more effective than the theurge. It isn't until the higher levels, and two Practiced Spellcaster feats, that theurges can begin to outclass their single-classed counterparts, unless the theurge used a cheese trick for easy qualification.
Ok, everyone assume 3/3/1 for quick theurge, but I was thinking something a little different.
First Im taking practiced spellcaster cleric at level 3, and first lvl in cleric. My next 3 lvls will be in wizard making him lvl 5 wizard lvl 1 cleric with a caster lvl of 5 in both. but wait theres more lvl 6 I take practiced spellcaster wizard making him caster level 6/5 for determining strenth of spells.
I dont need a lot of cleric spells early and he has a low wisdom.
So at level 6 hell be with 1st lvl 4 2nd lvl 3 3rd lvl 2 wizard spells perday. CL6
and 1st 3 +1 domain cleric spells CL 5
Next two levels in cleric: So level 8, stat boost wis, hell belvl 5 wizard/ lvl 3 cleric CL8 Wizard 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd
and CL7 Cleric 3 +1 Domain 1st and 1 + 1 2nd
9th level he takes Mystic Theurge lvl one. Making him effectively 6 wizard/4 cleric CL9 Wizard 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd
and CL8 Cleric 4 +1 Domain 1st and 2 +1 second
End game Im thinking something like this 7 wizard/3 cleric/10 mystic theurge giving me acces to 9th lvl wizard spells and 7th lvl divine spells
Caster Level 21 wizard 17 cleric
Ok, everyone assume 3/3/1 for quick theurge, but I was thinking something a little different.
First Im taking practiced spellcaster cleric at level 3, and first lvl in cleric. My next 3 lvls will be in wizard making him lvl 5 wizard lvl 1 cleric with a caster lvl of 5 in both. but wait theres more lvl 6 I take practiced spellcaster wizard making him caster level 6/5 for determining strenth of spells.
I dont need a lot of cleric spells early and he has a low wisdom.
So at level 6 hell be with 1st lvl 4 2nd lvl 3 3rd lvl 2 wizard spells perday. CL6
and 1st 3 +1 domain cleric spells CL 5
Next two levels in cleric: So level 8, stat boost wis, hell belvl 5 wizard/ lvl 3 cleric CL8 Wizard 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd
and CL7 Cleric 3 +1 Domain 1st and 1 + 1 2nd
9th level he takes Mystic Theurge lvl one. Making him effectively 6 wizard/4 cleric CL9 Wizard 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd
and CL8 Cleric 4 +1 Domain 1st and 2 +1 second
End game Im thinking something like this 7 wizard/3 cleric/10 mystic theurge giving me acces to 9th lvl wizard spells and 7th lvl divine spells
Caster Level 21 wizard 17 cleric
NOooooooo!!!!!!!
I'm afraid to break this to you but YOU are mixing up how Practiced Spellcaster works. Practiced Spellcaster increase your CASTER level up to +4 but is does NOT change your spell CASTING level. What's the difference? Caster level is the number you punch into any "caster level" variables you run into and what you use to determine if you can overcome SR. Casting level is the line in a class you follow across to determine your spells per day and spells known. These are two very different things and getting into Mystic Theruge requires spellcasting levels high enough to get both arcane and divine 2nd-level spells. Practiced Spellcaster can be a good feat for a MT because it boost the power of your individual spells but it does NOT give you the more powerful spells to start with.
Based on what you are saying I could take my Paladin4/Sorcerer2/AbjurantChampion5/whatever full BAB classes I like that don't do ANYTHING for spellcasting +9 and cast spells as a 19th-level Sorcerer. This is because AbC5 will let me set my caster level to my BAB and because that is +19 you're saying that is also what my sorcerer spellcasting level should be. This is not the case; my caster level is 19 which means my spell pack as much punch as they possibly can but I still only have the spells per day and spells know of a Sorcerer7. I could point out many other BROKEN examples when I can easily get caster level well above a character's actual level or spellcasting level.
If this makes any sense at all Casting level is like BAB but Caster level is like your total attack bonus. You may be able to attack something with +20 or more on your attack but if your BAB is just +5 you still don't get any itterative attacks and couldn't qualify for things that require BAB +6 or greater.
Afraid I may have miss read something. Part of this IS because peole make the mistake with Practiced Spellcaster and believe it will get them additional spellcasting and when you mention that you're NOT looking at 3/3 going into MT and mention PS that sent up a red flag there. In all honesty Practiced Spellcaster has NOTHING to do with getting you into MT which would have been a problem.
Now IF you are determined to go into MT I'd also favor a delayed entry but if I'm going to do that I'm putting my primary spellcasting into Cleric so I'm tough enough to handle the few levels of weakness I'd need to endure taking Wizard levels. To me it is also so much more thematic to have a Cleric of a magic deity to eventually pick up a little arcane casting and then go into MT; I have much harder time seeing why an arcane caster would go the other way.
Although it isn't relevant to this discussion I believe MT could defitely stand a little "upgrading" in light of the spellcasting combo classes that have followed. My "fixes" would include giving MT a 3/4 BAB and d6 HD to better reflect the divine casting side of the class; I may also let it ignore ASF for wearing armor although there are several ways to do that,
Ok, everyone assume 3/3/1 for quick theurge, but I was thinking something a little different.
First Im taking practiced spellcaster cleric at level 3, and first lvl in cleric. My next 3 lvls will be in wizard making him lvl 5 wizard lvl 1 cleric with a caster lvl of 5 in both. but wait theres more lvl 6 I take practiced spellcaster wizard making him caster level 6/5 for determining strenth of spells.
I dont need a lot of cleric spells early and he has a low wisdom.
So at level 6 hell be with 1st lvl 4 2nd lvl 3 3rd lvl 2 wizard spells perday. CL6
and 1st 3 +1 domain cleric spells CL 5
Next two levels in cleric: So level 8, stat boost wis, hell belvl 5 wizard/ lvl 3 cleric CL8 Wizard 4 1st, 3 2nd, 2 3rd
and CL7 Cleric 3 +1 Domain 1st and 1 + 1 2nd
9th level he takes Mystic Theurge lvl one. Making him effectively 6 wizard/4 cleric CL9 Wizard 4 1st, 3 2nd, 3 3rd
and CL8 Cleric 4 +1 Domain 1st and 2 +1 second
End game Im thinking something like this 7 wizard/3 cleric/10 mystic theurge giving me acces to 9th lvl wizard spells and 7th lvl divine spells
Caster Level 21 wizard 17 cleric
You forget that you have to play through all of those levels. When you're levels 6, 7, and 8 (in particular) you will notice your wizard spells lagging quite a bit because you're devoting entire class levels to Cleric when you only have a 12 Wisdom. You may not need a lot of cleric spells early on, but even getting those cleric spells ends up costing you a hell of a lot of wizard spells.
Let me prove my point to you.
Single-Classed Wizard vs. your build, which is Wiz/Wiz/Clr/Wiz/Wiz/Wiz/Clr/Clr/Theurge. Level 3 is the first point of divergence.
Level 3: 3/2 (CL 3) vs 3 (CL 3) // 2 (CL 3). Same number of spells, same CL, but wizard gets 2nd level spells. The wizard is also up one feat since he doesn't spend one on Practiced Spellcaster.
Level 4: You're putting +Int here in either build. 4/3 (CL 4) vs 3/2 (CL 3) // 2 (CL 4). Same number of spells, but you're at a lower CL for your highest-level spells. The wizard is up one feat.
Level 5: 4/3/2 (CL 5) vs 4/3 (CL 4) // 2 (CL 5). Same number of spells, but the wizard has 3rd level spells and a higher CL. The wizard is also up two feats (bonus feat level).
Level 6: 4/4/3 (CL 6) vs 4/3/2 (CL 6) // 2 (CL 5). FINALLY you get one extra spell over the normal wizard, and you're actually casting at comparable CLs. Of course, he's still up two feats (you got your bonus feat this level, but you had to spend your character feat on a second PSc.)
Level 7: 5/4/3/2 (CL 7) vs 4/3/2 (CL 7) // 3 (CL 6). Oops. The wizard now has two extra spells over you, and they're 4th level spells. Still two feats ahead of you.
Level 8: You say stat boost Wis; the pure wizard boosts Int (it won't matter here, both are even). 5/4/4/3 (CL 8) vs 4/3/2 (CL 8) // 3/1 (CL 7). Wizard's up three spells. While the wizard is tossing out Black Tentacles and Dimension Door, you're lucky to get Bull's Strength.
Level 9: you FINALLY enter your prestige class after lagging behind since level three. 5/5/4/3/1 (CL 9) vs 4/4/3 (CL 9) // 4/2 (CL 8). Wizard is still up a spell, and up two feats, but now he's also up two spell levels on you (5th level spells online vs 3rd level spells). He'd also have more than one of them per day (I left equipment out of the equation, but you'd certainly have at least a +2 Intelligence item by this point, giving you enough Intelligence for a bonus 5th level spell).
At every single one of those levels except 6th, you have no more spells than you'd have as a single-classed wizard, and those usually come at a reduced CL and a dramatic delay on when spell levels come online (most dramatic at level 7: the wizard has 4th level spells, the theurge is throwing around Bless).
Wizards and clerics grow quadratically. Furthermore, they do so independently of each other. This means you need to wait until the really high levels before theurge will pay off compared to a single-classed caster. Since you have awful Wisdom and are playing from level 2, I see no situation where taking cleric levels will actually benefit you.
Their use of the D&D rules might be ancillary, but if it works for them, why should we care?
We're only asked to help with this one character. (edit)
About your character, Alexader1, if after TS's great demonstration you still want to forge ahead and use Mystic Theurge: forget about the Cleric class and use the Archivist instead. It's sort of like a wizardly divine caster, with a spellbook. Its casting is Int-based; bonus spells are still based off of Wisdom, technically, but just ask your DM to handwave that.
@StevenO: yes, MT needs fixing. One should be able to enter it one level earlier (without shenanigans), it should have actual class features; in exchange, it could have some Ultimate Magus-like progression where one or two level don't progress both arcane and divine casting.
The overwhelming majority of people in the world have NPC classes and are level 1. Level 2 characters have seen plenty of adventuring and are already pretty potent by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. If you read that article - and you really, really should! - it makes it clear that Aragorn himself is only level 5. That's also about the same point as real-world outstanding individuals - such as world-record-setting Olympic athletes or paradigm-shifting scientists who come along once in a generation or so. Level 2 does not make sense for apprentice-level cowardice and inexperience.
Meh. Is there a fancy name for the pitfall that is the comparison of D&D with the real world? There should be.
I know some Commoners and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't die to a cat. ;)
I don't really see the point of throwing the Stormwind Fallacy around since it's not up to us to "fix" this group's way of playing.
Their use of the D&D rules might be ancillary, but if it works for them, why should we care?
We're only asked to help with this one character.
See post #2 (including the quoted portion of the OP), and you'll see why I tossed out TSF. He did, in fact, ask for help optimizing "the situation".
See post #2 (including the quoted portion of the OP), and you'll see why I tossed out TSF.
I did read that post, and I disagree with pretty much all of it, but I didn't think it would be very productive to discuss it point by point.
To sum it up, I dislike the "badwrongfun" attitude.
edit: re-reading this, I might be appearing more hostile than I am. Again, feel free to focus on the productive bits.
He did, in fact, ask for help optimizing "the situation".
Point taken.
My take on how to optimize the situation: "talk to your group".
I know it's the easy way out for me, but it's also the only way for him. That's if he needs to, it doesn't seem like they're ruining his fun.
See post #2 (including the quoted portion of the OP), and you'll see why I tossed out TSF.
I did read that post, and I disagree with pretty much all of it, but I didn't think it would be very productive to discuss it point by point.
To sum it up, I dislike the "badwrongfun" attitude.
edit: re-reading this, I might be appearing more hostile than I am. Again, feel free to focus on the productive bits.
Don't worry about it. I was in a bad mood when I wrote it, and knew that I wasn't nice with the things I said. I can't fault you for calling me on that, now can I? I still think they were points that needed to be brought up at the time; I just wasn't able to say them nicely.
He did, in fact, ask for help optimizing "the situation".
Point taken.
My take on how to optimize the situation: "talk to your group".
I know it's the easy way out for me, but it's also the only way for him. That's if he needs to, it doesn't seem like they're ruining his fun.
Very true. My advice was the snarky version of "talk to your group". And, as he seems ok with it, I'm not going to keep going with what I said. I will, however, agree that trying to go MT is an absolutely horrible idea, though.
The Dm has a homebrew rule called retrocasting. Basically it allows me to make a skillcheck to be able to cast spells directly from my spellbook. I know, normal D&D this would be impossible the spellbook is not a collection of scrolls the formula is more like a recipe and not simple spell completion, In fact I wont even go into how crasy this is game mechanics wise. But it does increase the spells per day I can use. Majorly. Yes I get access to the spells 3 lvls lower, but i still think its viable considering the following
An interesting point that found out in game, that I should have mentioned in my last post the plane we traveled to has no other arcane casters..used to but not anymore. Which is why I needed to impress the locals. Which is why they had never seen arcane magic. Even divine magic is on the fritz and extremely rare, reduced down to healing scrolls from a forgotten age . Although our magic functions fine. The way it was explained to me by the dm is that while their planes magic developed in a way of drawing magical energies from nature, Which has been completely destroyed because of the war, our planes magic developed as from drawing the magical energies from within the caster himself. Mind you instead of magic the bad guys have a big technological advantage.
Basically three guys showed up with advanced technology, fixed a bunch of problems like sickness, desease, poverty, famine, etc. After they had fixed all these problems they where extremely highly regarded and they challanged the existance of the "Creator" the one god. Which caused a war, that basically wiped out all of the elves and dwarves, sent the gnomes who also had machines, into hiding. During the war most of nature was ruined, making it so that their casters had nothing to draw the required energies from so magic died out.
@stevenO yea, it was a missread, I specifically said caster level for determining the stregnth of my spells not spells per day :D it happens
@stevenO yea, it was a missread, I specifically said caster level for determining the stregnth of my spells not spells per day :D it happens
I caught it right away (about 15 minutes) but instead of erasing everything I decided overstriking would be better as it still addressed a problem some people have with Practiced Spellcaster. While I may appreciate how you'd plan on making it into MT I still don't think it is a great idea although those houserule throw magic on its head in your campaign.
When it comes to "theurge" classes the ones I'd use are Arcane Heirophant (Druid/arcane in RoW which I don't own), the Cleric/Warlock on in CArc and the Ultimate Magus in CArc. Perhaps I should say those are the ones I'd use honestly (Practiced Spellcaster trick with UM is fair game) because if you start pushing things some of the others also become viable.