I recently came across the idea of an "anti-mage" or a spellcaster that uses his spells for countering enemy spells. I thought using the mystic theurge PrC with wizard and cleric would be a nice way to accomplish that role.
I'm very unexperienced with spellcasters though and thus I need your support regarding classes/PrC (to make the right choices), skills, spells, and of course feats.
I was planing to head for Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge 3/3/10 and then continuing with Thaumatorgist.
I'm basically only allowed d20srd stuff. If there is an inevitable feat that is f.e. in a complete book, I might be able to convince my group to allow this single feat (like augment healing from phb2), so don't bother naming important non-d20 feats.
In addition the races of fearun from the forgotten realms settings and the favoured soul are allowed.
We use de 4d6, reroll 1, drop lowest method and I got the following abilities:
11 16 15 11 17 15
And I have a total of 41830 XP, (group is of ECL 9, close to lvl 10)
Groupmembers are of the classes:
Rogue/Assassin
Ranger
Ranger/Fighter/Horizon Walker
Barbarian
Wizard (heading for eldritch knight)
Cleric (heading for hierophant)
Bard
I don't know if I provided all the informations necessary to give usefull tips, and thus please don't hesitate to do so.
cheers.
PrCs from anything but d20srd is going to be a problem, since only d20 material is allowed. I ment only some really really important feats, just like augment healing, could be taken if I can CONVINCE my group to allow it.
So staying with the d20srd for optimization purpose would be the wisest thing to do.
I'm not sure now if it was a good idea in the first place, to create such a PC or at least the concept of having it in our group...
edit: I'm not really "needed" as a pure wizard or cleric in my group, because we have a wizard and a cleric already, focusing on the field of knowledge. I would then be more of an assisting spellcaster, if one can call it like that. For that concept being succesfull I really depend on your expertise concerning the tweaking with the d20 srd.
Now why did I link that? Just in case it's not obvious... play a Ranger, Bard or Multiclassed Wizard (Eldritch Knight ftw?), even a Psychic Warrior's very solid if allowed and you're using psionic Transperency (D20SRD) but works best if you can get the Zen Archery Feat. Anyway, I digress.
Here's your plan, if you identify (via Sense Motive, and or Spot) someone that looks like an enemy caster, you shoot him. But wait, you don't just do this willy nilly. You use Manyshot if you've got it, and you ready an action waiting for them to cast a spell (Max Spellcraft) and then POW right in the kisser. If you've built your character with the right skillset (spells/powers help a lot of course, but gear can do this job alone), you will never let an enemy caster get off a spell AND you'll be dealing plenty of damage to them while you make them want to rage quit D&D.
Unrelated to the idea of countering spellcasters, here are some things I'd consider with those restrictions and that group.
- Druid 9
- Paladin (maybe of freedom) 2 / battle sorcerer 7
- Psion 9
On another note, a feat from PH2 you might be interested in called Vactic Gaze. While its primary benefit gives you detect magic at will, its secondary ability gives you the ability to make a Sense Motive check (DC 5 + targets' CL) to find out the highest level of spells the target is capable of casting, though it won't tell you about any Spell likes, supernatural, or Ex abilities. Get Sense motive as a permanent class skill by taking the feat Martial Study (from Tome of Battle) to grab a Setting Sun strike, as the secondary benefit of the feat gives you a class skill that relates to the fighting style you picked.
If your DM is allowing psionics, could you use wizard/Psion/cerebremancer? Or is the psionics section of the SRD not kosher?
If your DM is allowing psionics, could you use wizard/Psion/cerebremancer? Or is the psionics section of the SRD not kosher?
As long as the stuff is available due to the SRD I'm allowed to do WHATEVER I want. So psionics are fine, so is the UA content.
A little bit of information WHY I came to the idea in the first place:
- The group lacks imho of a way to successfully disrupt enemy spellcasters. Problem is, that most of our group are melee oriented and thus the way to the enemy can be a bit painful.
- I don't need to be a GOD Wizard, I don't need to be a full cleric, since we got both roles already, but due to the fact that we have a lot of melee oriented PCs and thus a lot of physical damage, there is no need of another fighter/ranger/rogue what-ever-PC.
- The idea of the mystic theurge is not only to counter enemies and their spells, but also to help out if a role isn't succeeding or not available (the wizard PC could be DM etc. -> we have changing DMs all the time). So if the wizard player is DMing, I'm just not as good as him, but at least I can somewhat help out in this role.
- If we get too much damage that our cleric can't heal, I can provide some heals too due to my divine spellcaster lvl.
- I can assist the bard with buffing our group
- I can debuff the enemies to lower the saves of the enemies, so that the other spellcaster can annihiliate them more easily
And the choice of the Thaumaturgist afterwards was made, because I am at lvl 16-20 not as good as a full caster. I decided to take the Thaumaturgist to increase the divine spellcaster lvl but also to get the planar ally, who will then act as a bodyguard. So even if I'm not as good as ONE full spellcaster, I'm still like 3 PCs at once:
- Arcane spells for counterspelling, buffing, debuffing
- Divine spells for heal, buffs and stuff
- Thaumaturgist for planar cohort and thus also having melee protection without needing any PC of my group.
Anyway... should I make a specialist wizard for a special school?
I took Protection and Strength as Domains for the Cleric to counter enemy buffs from their clerics and the heal spells to counter enemy healing.
Feats I have now with ECL 9 (3 cleric, 3 wizard, 3 mystic theurge)
- Improved Counterspell
- Spell Focus (Conjuration) -- I took this now because of the Thaumaturgist prerequisite
- Spell Penetration
- Practiced Spellcaster -- The DM said I should pick this too, because of the caster level, so no convincing needed I guess :D
I also used the Aasimar race for now for the Wisdom bump, because I suffer of MAD :/ The LA is bad though... Any ideas?
I changed my character a little bit, this is what I've got so far:
ECL 9 (38770 XP):
- Clr 3/Wiz 3/MyT 3
Race:
- Gnome, Forest
Stats (45 points buy):
- STR 9 (11 ... -2 due to race)
- DEX 15
- CON 17 (15 +2 due to race)
- INT 19 (2 level based stat bumps)
- WIS 16
- CHA 11
Alignment: CN
Deity: Shaundakul
Domains: Protection; Strength
Languages:
- Common
- Abyssal
- Elven
- Gnome
- Infernal
- Sylvan
Feats:
- Improved Counterspell
- Spell Penetration
- Greater Spell Penetration
- Scribe Scroll
- Practiced Spellcaster
Skills:
Attack:
I didn't calculate spells per day and spells in my spellbook yet.
Any suggestions?
- Concentration: 15 (12 ranks)
- Knowledge(arcana): 16 (12 ranks)
- Knowledge(religion): 10 (6 ranks)
- Knowledge(the planes): 16 (12 ranks)
- Sense Motive: 15 (12 ranks)
- Spellcraft: 18 (12 ranks, +2 due to race)
Attack:
- Light Crossbow, +7 to hit, 1d6, 19-20/x2, 80 ft.
I didn't calculate spells per day and spells in my spellbook yet.
Any suggestions?
Well, I hope I didn't offend you or anyone other by my truculence to stay with the Mystic Theurge, but imo the class HAS to make SOME sense... I can't imagine there is a PrC in the SRD that's just useless...
You've obviously never seen the Pyrokineticist.
As for your truculence... what we saw was a request that said "I want to be the best I can be at disrupting enemy spellcasters", which is why Andarious was recommending you just be an archer. You did well telling us what resources were allowed, but it also helps to give all the details about the character that you can. As Tempest_Stormwind puts it, Please tell us the whole story.
Anyway... should I make a specialist wizard for a special school?
If you do, make it Abjuration.
I took Protection and Strength as Domains for the Cleric to counter enemy buffs from their clerics and the heal spells to counter enemy healing.
You might be better of just filling EVERY SINGLE 3rd-level spell slot with Dispel Magic, as well as your 2nd-level Cleric slots with Hold Person and Silence. Make sure you invest in Lesser Metamagic Rods of Quicken and Silent Spell. The first is so you can get spells off without provoking AoO, the second is so that you can cast spells in your own zone of silence.
Feats I have now with ECL 9 (3 cleric, 3 wizard, 3 mystic theurge)
Improved Counterspell
Spell Focus (Conjuration) -- I took this now because of the Thaumaturgist prerequisite
Spell Penetration
Practiced Spellcaster -- The DM said I should pick this too, because of the caster level, so no convincing needed I guess :D
Hold off on Spell Focus as long as you can... like, level 15 or so.
I also used the Aasimar race for now for the Wisdom bump, because I suffer of MAD :/ The LA is bad though... Any ideas?
Gray Elf.
I'm going to use the next quote for my suggestion:
ECL 9 (38770 XP):
- Clr 3/Wiz 3/MyT 3
Race:
- Elf, Gray
Stats (45 points buy):
- STR 10 (12 ... -2 due to race)
- DEX 18 (15 +2 for race, +1 for level)
- CON 14 (16 -2 due to race)
- INT 18 (16 +2 for race)
- WIS 18 (+1 for level)
- CHA 10
Alignment: CN
Deity: Corellon Larethian
Domains: Protection; War
Languages:
- Common
- Abyssal
- Elven
- Gnome
- Infernal
- Sylvan
Feats:
- Improved Counterspell
- Spell Penetration
- Scribe ScrollB
- Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
- Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric)
- Weapon Focus (Longsword)B
Skills:
- Concentration: 15 (12 ranks)
- Knowledge(arcana): 16 (12 ranks)
- Knowledge(religion): 10 (6 ranks)
- Knowledge(the planes): 16 (12 ranks)
- Sense Motive: 16 (12 ranks)
- Spellcraft: 16 (12 ranks)
- 6 Skill Points open
Attack:
- Longsword - +5 to hit, 1d8 damage, 19-20/x2
- Longbow - +8 to hit, 1d8 damage, 20/x3
If your DM will allow you the Twilight special enhancement for armor (PHB2, IIRC), get a +1 mithral Twilight chain shirt. That will negate your ASF chance.
As for your truculence... what we saw was a request that said "I want to be the best I can be at disrupting enemy spellcasters", which is why Andarious was recommending you just be an archer. You did well telling us what resources were allowed, but it also helps to give all the details about the character that you can. As Tempest_Stormwind puts it, Please tell us the whole story.
Well I don't really see to much of a problem here. As the topic name says I wanted the MyT to be somewhat optimized to also make sense in the boundries of my group. The reason WHY I wanted to have an MyT came a bite too late, that's true, and I apologize for any inconvinience. But you are right, I never told that I wanted to have a MyT no matter what and it should be subject of the optimization.
The build you suggested looks very nice, although I don't really like elves, especially if I have to play them xP. Are there any viable alternatives? Preferably one of the size small.
The build you suggested looks very nice, although I don't really like elves, especially if I have to play them xP. Are there any viable alternatives? Preferably one of the size small.
I was looking through the possibilities, and the only one that really fits is the Blue, and even it's not perfect. It's a naturally psionic goblin that gets +2 INT, but its favored class is psion and it has a +1 LA. If you guys are playing with favored class rules, you pretty much have to go with an elf, half-elf, or human. Elves have wizard as a favored class, while half-elves and humans have any. And I don't know of any race in core/SRD that gets Cleric as a favored class. Gray elf seems to be best for this, as it gives you some martial weapon proficiencies and, most importantly, a boost to Intelligence. Plus the War domain is better than the Strength domain, since the Strength domain's ability is based on cleric level, of which you only have three.
Another question, that's a bit off-topic though is, if there is somekind of table or something that can let me easily check and/or calculate the spells known (spellbook) for my wizard class. It sounds trivial, but it's actually the first time I'm playing an arcane spellcaster and thus the spellbook "rule" is giving me a hard time.
I don't know, but I'm sure someone else does.
Alright then. I'm now tending to my spellbook. You already told me to take Hold Person and Dispel Magic, but what other spells should I take for my spellbook? Any suggestions, or should I just take what I think is best for the group?
Sleep, and try to find spells (both divine and arcane) that offer Fort saves.
I have one last question though.
For example the spell "Stinking Cloud" has the description "Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated.". If I take the text literally it also affects my own group members. The same would go for the fireball and other AoE spells. Or can't I target friendly characters with area of effect spells as long as I do wish to do so?
I appologize that my original post was not a mystic theurge but I assumed the end result was more important than the path you took to get there. Casters do make the best anti casters and really what it comes down to is range, effectiveness (Fort save, or even Ref if you're aiming to disrupt rather than disable) and timing. You need to have Improved Init and a decent Dex (Elf's good for this, even though you hate them). You want to have Divinations and keep them active (things like See Invis, Detect Hostile Intent and the like). The most important thing though is to be ahead of your opponent and watching for them to try to do something, if you've ever played Magic: The Gathering the best Blue players know all about timing and do stuff "in response" or "end of turn", they don't just use all their resources every chance they get.
That said, with the early poster's statement that Mystic Theurge isn't GOOD for a caster disrupter, it's actually not that BAD either it's just not the ideal for caster disruption. MT's more the battle buffer who can cast Haste and Prayer and a pile of other goodies on the party to make them all more effective and has the staying power to cast a spell each and every turn.
Alright, thanks for your help!
I have one last question though.
For example the spell "Stinking Cloud" has the description "Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated.". If I take the text literally it also affects my own group members. The same would go for the fireball and other AoE spells. Or can't I target friendly characters with area of effect spells as long as I do wish to do so?
AoE spells affect EVERYONE in their area, unless you have either Shape Spell or Sculpt Spell, which are metamagic feats found in the Complete Series. They're usually used as battlefield control, instead of direct damage (which is why Fireball is one of the worse options). What you want to do is restrict the opponents' movement and actions, so things that cause conditions (like the Cloud spells which restrict vision, among other things) are better than direct damage. For example, Grease is one of the best 1st-level wizard spells around, because it will seriously muck up pretty much everyone but rogues. You should get wands for direct damage (like Magic Missile), and make scrolls of your utility spells, like {i]Lock/Knock[/i], and use your spell slots for spells that will restrict your opponents. Grease, the Wall spells, the Fog spells, even some of the Bigby's Hand spells can do a good job of this. You've got your melee characters running around for direct damage; your job is to make their job easier.
Don't forget Black Tentacles, better for a pure caster but still great especially when dealing with lots of smaller land bound opponents.
I forgot about EBT.
I haven't had a chance to play in over a year, other than D&D Tactics on PSP, and you don't get XP for spells that kill in later rounds.
@autCyrius: except if you want it for the flavour, drop Improved Counterspell. You're better off zapping the enemy caster with a high damage spell, to make him lose the spell AND some HPs.
Scorching Ray is pretty good in that role, but also prepare some non-fire damage spells.
If you're feeling uncomfortable with the wizard (you're already having trouble wiht the spellbook), I would recommend playing a non-multiclassed one first (PrCs are fine) before jumping into a Mystic Theurge. You risk getting overwhelmed by the options.
If you stick to MT, focus on spells that are not too dependent on CL, since as you noticed yours will remain behind your whole career. I would personally focus on utility spells (apart from slots devoted to combat, of course); you can most definitely afford to prepare spells that might not see use every day (Gaseous Form, Shrink Item, ...).
to work right, you really need early entry
of some sort. Otherwise you're trading
2 of Caelic's Commandments for a not
so useful pile of low(-er) level spells.
Core only has a Cohort Cleric handing you
an Imbue With Spell Ability at it's 7th level,
your 9th level. Wiz 8 / Cleric 1 + buff / MT X
with Leadership and good Cha. If you get
tagged with a Dispel, you lose way too much.
Not well known ; not well liked.
If it doesn't bother you, that some rather
"old" c.o. heads are grouchy about this
... hey you can be the utility guy.
Kinda a Batman-lite with sparklers.
@autCyrius: except if you want it for the flavour, drop Improved Counterspell. You're better off zapping the enemy caster with a high damage spell, to make him lose the spell AND some HPs.
Scorching Ray is pretty good in that role, but also prepare some non-fire damage spells.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. I thought I had to target an enemy spellcaster and ready my action for the case that he begins to cast something. If that happens I can use spells like dispel magic or the exact same spell of the enemy to counter the spell.
Or is it possible to try "countering", well not really countering but trying to make the enemy spellcaster lose his spell, by readying an action as described above and instead of using dispel magic or the other, exact spell, using f.e. a scorching ray?
Let's say the scorching ray deals 8d6 dmg (lets assume an average of 21 damage). The enemy has to concentrate with a DC 31, right? What happens though if the enemy spellcaster is casting defensivly? Do I still get the ready action? And if I do so, does he still have to concentrate?
To the wizard thing:
Problem is I NEVER EVER bothered to read through any of the wizard stuff and thus I had a hard time at the beginning. I don't have to much problem with the class and it's features now, but rather with the count of spells I'm able to choose. And since it's more or less a one-time-option to choose the spells for my spellbook, I don't want to add the wrong spells to it.
One other thing that crossed my mind:
We recently played and I tried my own first MyT build. The enemy was a devil with spell-like abilities, that he could cast at-will. None of us really knew if I was able to counter his spells now or not, since at-will is more or less a swift action, but I was readying my action already to counter anything from the enemy. Fyi I tried to counter with Dispel Magic, but the enemy was CR 15 and thus the counterspell failed.
This leads me to my next question:
We are a group of 8 regular players (one of them is the DM). Most of the DMs tend to give higher CR monsters than more lower CR monsters, but in higher numbers. So spells like Dispel Magic that uses the enemy's spellcaster level might be some kind of a problem, right?
If so, is there any good guide (for not-wizard-pros too) that focuses on utility and it's spells without having non-SRD content in it?
Or is it possible to try "countering", well not really countering but trying to make the enemy spellcaster lose his spell, by readying an action as described above and instead of using dispel magic or the other, exact spell, using f.e. a scorching ray?
This is exactly what I meant when I explained "any ranged attacker will do". Defensive casting does ZIP to protect them, the real key though is having a high enough Spellcraft check to notice them casting a spell even if they're concealing it somehow (Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, skill tricks, various other feats). The great news is, you don't need to know the same spell or anything like that, you don't need to beat their caster level in a check you just need to deal damage A LOT ideally. Manyshot's a fantastic way to do this, or Greater Manyshot and some bonus damage. In an open field Fireball or other area spells are just fine for this too as long as your allies are not too close, this is not a good tactic in a dungeon though. They key element of a spell used to disrupt an enemy caster however is RANGE, you want long. This can not only stop offense spells but buffs and healing as well.
Problem is I NEVER EVER bothered to read through any of the wizard stuff and thus I had a hard time at the beginning. I don't have to much problem with the class and it's features now, but rather with the count of spells I'm able to choose. And since it's more or less a one-time-option to choose the spells for my spellbook, I don't want to add the wrong spells to it.
Here, Problem solved complements of RT and the rest of the Eclipse Crew
Show
1 Sleep, Color Spray
4 Black Tentacles
5 Cloudkill, Magic Jar
6 Disintegrate
8 Trap the Soul
9 Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee
I got your point(points) though, and it seems that other ranged classes are much more fitting that role. This however makes the MyT bad (still not worst imo) in this role, but there are others to fill in. As you stated before, the buffing part is also an option. This is what I ment several posts back - the versatility of the MyT, even if not as strong as any other spellcaster, is still very high, assisting anyone in the group, not just myself or melee PCs.
And yes, I got Practiced Spellcaster for both wizard and cleric, just as draco suggested it. And I do have a +3 on ranged to hit due to my dex bonus. That's a total on +8 (for now) on my ranged to hit. It's not that hard to hit humanoids with that.
And so on... the main point I'm trying to make here, it's not the tools you have at your disposal, it's how you use them. That's what makes you GOOD at a job.
Right, I agree, but as stated before I'm not that experienced with spells and stuff and I'm even worse when it comes to choose spells for myself
F.e. Dispel Magic seemed like a really good idea, but you stated that it's not, either because you already tried it whilst playing or you know of other, much better ways to deal with the problems. Since it's more or less the first time I'm in that role, I'm having a hard time at first - doesn't mean though that I dont "understand" things. The problem is much more the inexperience, because I never cared to know.
Manyshot is still restricted to 30 feet, which is not much, especially if focusing an enemy spellcaster. And afaik it's very hard to hit a AC buffed spellcaster with feats like manyshot, because of the to hit -penalty.
edit: So f.e. the enemy decides to cast defensivly, which requires a succesful roll on a DC 15 + 7 for spelllevel - let's say he succeeds. He then begins to cast, I decide to throw him some scorching rays in his ugly face, and deal 8d6 (lets assume an average of 28 damage), that would be an DC of 10 + 28 = 38; OR does my damage dealt add to his DC of 15 + 7 for spelllevel + 28 for my damage = 50 // latter would make less sense imo.
edit2: On a scala from 1 to 10, 1 being the worst, where would you place the MyT (and especially the wizard/cleric/MyT build) not considering the role playing with it (so I mean the overall usage). Your points make me somewhat consider the descision to actually play that character...
edit2: On a scala from 1 to 10, 1 being the worst, where would you place the MyT (and especially the wizard/cleric/MyT build) not considering the role playing with it (so I mean the overall usage). Your points make me somewhat consider the descision to actually play that character...
Actually, the classes are scaled by tiers. Both the Wizard and Cleric are Tier 1, meaning they are extremely powerful. However, combining the two and going Mystic Theurge actually lowers them a tier, so you're playing with a Tier 2 character. You're still powerful, but you're not AS powerful.
So your DC for that Scorching Ray would be 10+28+7 = 45.
For Core, let's look at it this way there's a Teir system in place for D&D Characters. Basically Cleric OR Wizard are Teir 1 (if built properly they're difficult to control they're so powerful.) Multiclassing or Prestieging changes that teir. The DMG PrC's are almost all really bad, reducing your Teir.
Classes
PrC's
Why?
That means, that a wizard with access to Spell Compendium is much more powerful than a Wizard with only SRD spells, making him worse. Same goes for all other classes. A Fighter that can multiclass with Warblade is much more powerful than a pure fighter with only SRD content. An arcane spellcaster with out twilight can't really wear any kind of armor other than armor braces. And so on.
I'm giving the MyT a try though, at least as party support. I don't need to be a GOD. If it sucks, or nobody of the group even notices my MyT, I'm going for something else. But for now I'm trying with your help to optimize him to become better.
Tactics, like you already told me concerning the rays and the ready action and stuff already helped alot - I didn't know of it before.
The problem I'm having with all that stuff is mainly the reason, that it's SRD only. I hate it when im restricted like that, but rules are rules
Anyway, as stated before, the tactics you explained were really helpful, and I'm wondering if there is an existing thread that focuses on tactics like that, to improve my knowledge of them.
There are (used to be?) a lot of isolated threads on specific spells (e.g. the Image line of illusions), on spell combos, on spells that YOU make useful, etc... I advise you to do some Googling around if the Handy links don't yield much.
Ultimately, guides will only go so far. You need some experience under your belt to make up your own style. Experiment!
You can't counterspell spell-ike abilities. Zapping the SLA user works, however your DM has to let you see that he is "concentrating" for the readied action to work.
"The enemy was a devil with spell-like abilities, that he could cast at-will. None of us really knew if I was able to counter his spells now or not, since at-will is more or less a swift action"
What the heck does that mean??? At-will SLAs still take a standard action to use unless Quickened. At-will just means they're not expended.
Why counterspelling in core sucks:
- you have to ready an action. That right there is already something you want to avoid: it can lead to a wasted action if you chose the wrong trigger, if the foe is killed by a teammate before his next turn, if he takes full cover before casting, etc...
And actions are the most important resource in the game.
(I'm actually simplifying a bit here: you have to consider the whole action economy. Above I assumed each side had roughly the same amount of actions. If a party of 5 faces off a single big monster, 3 people can afford to ready actions without too much trouble. If it's 5 vs 10 than readying becomes even worse.)
- in addition to your action, you're expanding a spell, either Dispel with a fairly high failure rate or a higher level spell than the one you counter via Improved Counterspell, just to negate the action of a foe and one of his slots.
As a rule, as a PC, you want to do more than preserve the status quo: you need to siphon more resources from the opponent than you spend.
- and that's precisely what zapping the enemy mage gives you: causing him to lose his action + his spell + HPs.
I disagree with AR regarding range: Scorching Ray is often fine. Granted, this is fairly group-dependent, but in my experience, rarely more than 1 encounter in 6 starts at a range greater than 100ft. More than a question of Spot penalties, it's because of the social contract: if many more encounters started at range, everybody would switch to playing archers and evokers (!). Nobody likes to wait 3 rounds every fight to close in on the enemy.
And as you point out, Many shot is even more limited in range.
Mystic Theurge sucks really bad in the beginning, then it becomes fine along the way:
- Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 is miles behind a Wizard 7
- Wiz 3/Cl 3/MT 10 has access to level 7 spells from both classes, which is pretty decent compared to a Wizard 16 (I'm assuming one curbs the power of the straight wizard to accomodate a Tier 2-3 party here, so one does not need all the force multipliers)
But this tier system seems not only to focus on SRD and DMG and stuff, but also on CW, CAr etc.
That means, that a wizard with access to Spell Compendium is much more powerful than a Wizard with only SRD spells, making him worse. Same goes for all other classes. A Fighter that can multiclass with Warblade is much more powerful than a pure fighter with only SRD content. An arcane spellcaster with out twilight can't really wear any kind of armor other than armor braces. And so on.
In reverse order:
1) WotC basically flat-out admitted that armored mages aren't all that strong. The only point where it usually matters is the lowest of the low levels (when you don't have enough slots or duration for Mage Armor, nor budget for bracers of armor or twilight), and that's assuming your mage is even being targeted (an intelligent wizard stays out of combat; if your tank is halfway decent, enemies will be focusing on him instead of the mage anyway, so the only attacks that are aimed at the wizard are either stray attacks or somehow interfered with by your tank). During the mid levels most wizard-types have miss chances in battle, and during the high levels AC is a nonissue (you're usually blocking line of effect).
2) The arguments about multiclassing are moot for the tier system: the tiers consider each class on its own merits. Swashbuckler gains a lot from Rogue + Daring Outlaw, for instance, but that doesn't factor in to where it falls on the tier system. Generally speaking you'll find that a class' position on the tier list doesn't change with expansion material - largely speaking, expansion material broadens each tier, but doesn't juggle them. (There are some notable exceptions: right in the main list, these include the Zhentarim or Dungeon Crasher fighters, Imperious Command on a samurai, the online pseudonatural/summoning vestige, and the wild shape ranger).
3) Considering how most of the powerful, broken spells are right in the Player's Handbook, I don't see how a wizard without splatbooks is any less "powerful" than a wizard with splatbooks. There's only a small list of spells from the Spell Compendium and the PHB2 that I think change how the wizard is largely played (i.e. Celerity). A good example to learn from is here; it's worth pointing out that in this example, Lycanthromancer was not familiar with wizards prior to building this character. (He literally just paged through the PHB and picked spells and gear that looked good to him, rather than using an intricate knowledge of the rules.) At lower levels the same general story is true; consider how many of the Spells That Fvcking Kill People are from core. (I.e. most of the low and high level "I win" spells are all compatible with SRD-only!).
@since at-will is more or less a swift action:
I assumed that since at-will means AT ANY time, so even in the round of another one. That would make it a faster action than a standard action, because he has an additional action. Anyway, I didn't find any entry in the SRD that would clarify that "problem".
Alright, I didn't know SRD spells were that decent. I thought most of the cool stuff came with additional books (complete, settings books etc.)
And yes, you are right, most of our encounters don't even need a move action for someone with ranged spells to get into the fight. When it comes to fights, it's 10-60 ft. range afar.
As for the "quality" of a Mystic Theruge I don't think they are horrible although they will be weaker then a straight cleric or wizard at many points long their level trajectory. Of course MOST classes are "weak" when compared to a Wizard or Cleric which may make the MT seam a bit more balanced. I definitely agree that at 7th-level a Cleric3/Wiz3/MT1 is not something that is generally feared as your giving up three casting levels to get four but at 16th-level you're still "giving up" three casting levels but getting thirteen back as a replacement. Oh sure, all of those low level spells are "useless" but there are ways around that and they do give you options for using things you may not normally use.
If I think of both possibilities:
Cleric
gives me cleric spells
ability to turn undead (I have no CHA, so it's useless)
more spells per day than druid
Druid
higher skills
more skills
Animal Companion (even though it's only something like a riding dog, it can still provide with some extra meat shield)
druid spells.
Aren't druid spells more useful rather than cleric spells, especially if we already got a cleric in our group? Or is the real power of the druid the wild shape skill?
If I think of both possibilities:
Cleric
gives me cleric spells
ability to turn undead (I have no CHA, so it's useless)
more spells per day than druid
Druid
higher skills
more skills
Animal Companion (even though it's only something like a riding dog, it can still provide with some extra meat shield)
druid spells.
The power of the druid lies in three things - Wild Shape, animal companion, and the ability to spam SNA all day long. You really wouldn't be able to do any of those as a MT. You'll have no Wild Shape ability, your AC will be stuck at either 3rd or 4th level, and you're a full spell level behind on spamming. The Arcane Heirophant (Races of the Wild), on the other hand, adds its class levels to BOTH your familiar and your AC (which are actually just one creature now) and to Wild Shape. The power of the cleric lies in buffs. So, while you're still a full spell level behind, it matters a whole lot less to the cleric than it does to the druid. And, if you go War domain, you get Divine Power as a... 4th-level Domain spell, IIRC. Divine Power is just... nasty.
If you had access to other books, then choosing druid because you already have a cleric would be fine.
If you want more skills, you could ask to use the Cloistered Cleric variant. It would be a net win for you.
Anyway, that's exactly what I don't like about SRD-only. It's nice, don't get me wrong. It has all the stuff it needs, but when it comes to combining RP characters with classes, it stops being nice.
F.e.: My char was X, is heading to become Y and might do Z. To make it feel "real" I'd have to pick class A and class B, and maybe PrC C. But guess what, class B makes class A suck, and the PrC C sucks with the combination of A and B.
To concrete, what I'm talking about:
The last 2 days I was creating the story of the char. (I have to say, although the gray elf is probably WAY better I'll get the forest gnome anyway. It's not that much worse, and I'll probably have it easier to roleplay (which overweighs in our group)).
So he was in a tribe in the forest of the wester heartlands (faerun), going out to explore the forest near by their dwellings. After returning, he figured that there was something odd. The smell of fire stenched in his nose. Then he saw, that all the small huts and their homes have been burned down, not by nature but men. But all of his people were missing, so he assumed, they've been kidnapped.
Since he grew up in nature, the druid spells and druid class skills would've been a perfect RP match. I'd have gotten him an animal companion, a riding dog, which adds some + bonuses to rp-fun-factor imo.
He would've had some wizard levels due to his elders, teaching him the art of arcane spellcasting and especially the illusion school. Since he'd have divine and wizard levels, he'd level up in mystic theurge, do become stronger, find and free his people, if they are still alive anyway.
So the problem is, I don't really see a "good" RP-way of explaining, why he'd have cleric levels. Of course, I could say he was fascinated by his deity, or was interested in other planes and outsiders etc.
I have to add, that I also wanted to rank the craft(Alchemy) skill up a bit, but be honest... how useless is that skill. I think it's only useful in lower levels, when spellslots are to precious, or an acid flask would be better anyway^^.
Btw, is there a way to play the druid (let's say 20 levels druid only) as a caster only so that it doesn't suck? Of course, one would be giving up an entire class feature (wild shape), but sometimes RP is more important than optimizing the crap out of a PC^^
A cleric of nature and a druid can be virtually indistinguishable flavour-wise.
The core druid in a nutshell:
- at low levels (1-6) the animal companion carries you (figuratively).
- spell-wise, you use Entangle (when you can), Shillelagh, ...
- then Wildshape picks up, it's very good at levels 6-15 (here my memory is a bit fuzzy, so the range could be wrong)
- from level 10 on, you get Animal Growth which you use liberally on your companion and your summons
- at level 12, Control Wind becomes beastly for control
- at level 17+, Shapechange is king.
A non-wildshape druid is still a full caster, so it's fine. But some intermediate levels would be tougher.
Is the cerebremancer superior to the MyT? Or is the wizard/psion to the wizard/cleric? And if he is, why is he. Please clearify :S
If the cerebremancer is a better choice, what discipline should I take for the psion then? Wizard spells are battlefield controlish, some rays for debuffing, and utility for RP/survivability.
This might become a bit off-topic, since it's not about the MyT anymore, but draco1119 mentioned a wizard/psion/cerebremancer build.
Is the cerebremancer superior to the MyT? Or is the wizard/psion to the wizard/cleric? And if he is, why is he. Please clearify :S
One of the most fundamental advantages for the wizard/psion kind of cerebremancer is that they both use Intelligence as their most important ability score, allowing you to invest in a single score, rather than spreading out your resources and ability increases over separate scores. The same benefit would be present for an ardent/cleric mix with psychic theurge (a web enhancement equivalent of the cerebremancer for combining divine magic and psionic powers), since power the cleric and ardent depend on their Wisdom scores.
... A good example to learn from is here; it's worth pointing out that in this example, Lycanthromancer was not familiar with wizards prior to building this character. (He literally just paged through the PHB and picked spells and gear that looked good to him, rather than using an intricate knowledge of the rules.) ...
So ... umm ... (thinks for a bit)
Lycanthrom-adept
or
Lycanthro-stidigitator
or
LycanthromAn-gy
or
Although there is yet another problem:
I'm usually playing without any electronic help, but sometimes my mobile phones is quite handy when it comes to arcane spells (I have an app for that). But now I printed this .pdf which is very nice imo: www.irossco.com/dnd/dnd_3.0_wizard_and_s...
Too bad there is no such thing for POWERs
I've only found that one: www.irossco.com/dnd/dnd_3.0_spell_sheet.... which could be misused for my powers, although I'm to lazy to write all the powers in there.
Do you know any helpful materials? Or how do you keep track of your spells/powers.
edit: and do you, by any chance, know of a good read like www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t... just for psion powers? I think I've got some nice one so far, but I'm certain there is some optimization possible.
One of the most fundamental advantages for the wizard/psion kind of cerebremancer is that they both use Intelligence as their most important ability score, allowing you to invest in a single score, rather than spreading out your resources and ability increases over separate scores. The same benefit would be present for an ardent/cleric mix with psychic theurge (a web enhancement equivalent of the cerebremancer for combining divine magic and psionic powers), since power the cleric and ardent depend on their Wisdom scores.
However, I hasten to point out, there is a pretty significant disadvantage to the cerebremancer over the classical theurge: feats are supertransparent. If a Mystic Theurge picks up Extend Spell, he can use it with either his divine magic or his arcane magic. If a cerebremancer picks up Extend Power, he can't use it with any of his wizard spells.
So I finally decided to give the psion 3/wizard 3/cerebremancer 3 a go. Race is "Blue" from XPH. Pretty high DCs
Two problems: Blues have a +1 level adjustment, so that's a level 10 character with a caster level / manifester level of 6, and access to just 3rd level effects. Blues are extremely weak for a +1 LA race, and are generally skipped accordingly.
Although there is yet another problem:
I'm usually playing without any electronic help, but sometimes my mobile phones is quite handy when it comes to arcane spells (I have an app for that). But now I printed this .pdf which is very nice imo: www.irossco.com/dnd/dnd_3.0_wizard_and_s...
Too bad there is no such thing for POWERs
Considering how your psion only knows 13 powers total, and powers operate differently from spells, such a binary resource would not be useful for psions. All you need to track is your power points, your ML, and the small list of powers you know - which is as simple as a list.
I've only found that one: www.irossco.com/dnd/dnd_3.0_spell_sheet.... which could be misused for my powers, although I'm to lazy to write all the powers in there.
Do you know any helpful materials? Or how do you keep track of your spells/powers.
Virtual tabletop, but when I play in person without a computer, I just write a quick summary of each power on an index card with details of how they augment, and have a second index card with quick summaries as a "table of contents".
I do the same thing with my spellcasters and martial adepts (the latter generally don't need a ToC, though, due to their small number of readied maneuvers). For prepared spellcasters and martial adepts, I "discard" index cards as I cast or initiate their abilities. For spontaneous spellcasters and psions, I have a second card tallying their spell slots or power points, and just check off what I spend as I use it.
edit: and do you, by any chance, know of a good read like www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t... just for psion powers? I think I've got some nice one so far, but I'm certain there is some optimization possible.
There's an incredible amount of stuff out there on psionic optimization!
Here's a handbook index that should help. There's also a collection of links here.
So you aren't suggesting a cerebremancer? The psion powers are quite neat, I wouldn't like to lose those^^ at least compared to the cleric spells.
For the race: I thought it was more or less the first pick if one creates a psion. LA+1 is not too much of a problem, since I start with 41500 XP, with buy off its 38500, still ECL 9. What would you suggest (besides the gray elf)? This question becomes obsolete if you aren't suggesting a cerebremancer in the first place.
Alright.
So you aren't suggesting a cerebremancer? The psion powers are quite neat, I wouldn't like to lose those^^ at least compared to the cleric spells.
I never suggest theurging anyway (it takes a class like the Ultimate Magus to really make that work, but that class has its own suite of issues). You seem to have been set on it, though.
The question is, do you care more about the Intelligence synergy, or do you care about metamagic? The former makes things simpler if you aren't extremely heavy into optimization, while the latter matters more if you want every last ounce of power available to you.
For the race: I thought it was more or less the first pick if one creates a psion.
Nope, that's still either any of the bonus feat races (human, strongheart halfling, azurin, silverbrow human depending on what you want out of the build) or any of the +2 Int races without a level adjustment (Grey Elf isn't always recommended due to its low Con score on a d4 HD class, but it's up there). You're dramatically underestimating the impact that a level adjustment has on a spellcaster, particularly a spellcaster who is already behind on the caster levels due to theurging.
LA Buyoff changes things a bit but not too much (the blue is an extremely weak LA+1, so you aren't getting a lot of bang for that 3000xp buck). And I really don't suggest theurging at all, and that includes the cerebremancer.
Still, if I HAD to build a psion/wizard cerebremancer, I would pick a bonus-feat race and either use a bonus feat on Overchannel along with a regular feat for Practiced Spellcaster (offsetting costs like a madman is one thing you need to do to keep a theurge-type above water until the highest levels), or use an early-entry trick to get into the class faster. Note that this cheese always works better in the case of a mystic theurge instead of a cerebremancer (for instance, you can qualify for Mystic Theurge by level 3 using Heighten Spell and Earth Spell - since feats are supertransparent, you can now Heighten both your arcane and divine cantrips to level 1 and have them count as level 2 spells. This approach can be modified for cerebremancer, but it requires you to use Ardent on the psi side and play a bonus-feat race: Wiz 1 (1st: Heighten / Earth Spell), Ardent 1, Ardent 2 (3rd: Practiced Manifester; learn a 2nd level power). Naturally this works better for Psychic Theurges (cleric + ardent gets Wis synergy) rather than Cerebremancers, but it's a thought.)
Note that Ardent is the best psionic class for theurging, bar none - unlike psions, ardents can learn any power they can pay for, so you can use Practiced Manifester to make sure you don't fall behind on the high-level powers.
There is another problem though. If the character begins to suck, so that the group isn't really taking notive of my efforts in the group anymore, I'm going to be rather pissed^^.
Alright, I'll plan another race then. Does it have to have a +2 INT mod? I initially was planning for a forest gnome, when I was still fixed on the idea of the mystic theurge (wizard/cleric).
Early-entry tricks are going to be problematic. Although they are possible, I don't think that my group is going to allow it (f.e. the early arcane trickster entry is forbidden too).
I don't know of an Ardent class, and either way I'm allowed to take SRD only. So basically what you are suggesting is dropping the idea of a mystic theurge, go for wizard and focus on utility/debuff/buff? Take note that we already have a wizard in our group, who is going to become an eldritch knight.
I'm very uncertain now what to play. Since it's SRD only I don't have much of a choice, but I don't want to have to regret this choice neither now nor in let's say 10 levels.
Hm I can't really decide on what I want more, either INT score or metamagic. I don't really have to have the uber optimized character here, I just wanted to make, as you all stated and proven your points, the theurging classes a bit more usefull then they actually are. I could however do any other character like cleric/thaumaturgist or even a full lvl 20 wizard build, but I wanted to give either the mystic theurge or the cerebremancer a shot.
There is another problem though. If the character begins to suck, so that the group isn't really taking notive of my efforts in the group anymore, I'm going to be rather pissed^^.
I'm partial to that motivation - as I said in the Party Optimization Showcase link in my signature, that's part of the reason I'm playing a single-classed hexblade in a game with high-power characters.
Honestly, though, the reason you'll seem to suck isn't so much due to the theurging (though the lost caster levels certainly don't help!). It's your original idea of counterspelling. The best counterspell is a greatsword to the face during the incantation; the best way a mage can counter another mage is via Spell Resistance or Mastery of Shaping on Antimagic Field.
Alright, I'll plan another race then. Does it have to have a +2 INT mod? I initially was planning for a forest gnome, when I was still fixed on the idea of the mystic theurge (wizard/cleric).
As long as you prioritize the right scores, it won't matter. In my other game, I'm playing a normal (non-Strongheart) halfling psion, and they're hardly a +int race. I did start with 18 Intelligence, though.
Early-entry tricks are going to be problematic. Although they are possible, I don't think that my group is going to allow it (f.e. the early arcane trickster entry is forbidden too).
There's almost no way you can play a theurge at anything other than the highest levels if you aren't doing early-entry. You know the whole "jack of all trades, master of none" thing a single-classed bard has an undue reputation for? Being behind three caster levels in both classes makes you worse than that.
I don't know of an Ardent class, and either way I'm allowed to take SRD only.
It's in Complete Psionic, along with Practiced Manifester. Complete Arcane has Practiced Spellcaster. There's honestly no reason whatsoever to even consider the theurge classes without those feats.
So basically what you are suggesting is dropping the idea of a mystic theurge, go for wizard and focus on utility/debuff/buff? Take note that we already have a wizard in our group, who is going to become an eldritch knight.
Your other wizard will focus on buffs if he's going to be an eldritch knight. You support this by focusing on battlefield control. Conjuration and Illusion are the natural choices for this in core.
I'm very uncertain now what to play. Since it's SRD only I don't have much of a choice, but I don't want to have to regret this choice neither now nor in let's say 10 levels.
Well, just about everything is going to lead to regrets in an SRD-only game, because it's so disparate and unfocused in its power brackets (the full casters (except the sorcerer) are all Tier One, most of the noncasters are Tier Four, and that's quite a gap right there), and you don't have a lot of options for trying to specialize or diversify (i.e. no Swift Hunter or Practiced Spellcaster styled multiclass feats).
A thing is, it's easy to bring one single non-SRD feat into the game, but not a class/PrC. That's why I could still take practiced spellcaster, although it's not in our "allowed" sources. My DM also suggested to take this feat, so I think it's fine.
Well, now once and for all, is it worth the "trouble" in playing a Mystic Theurge OR a Cerebremancer? Of course that is a hard decision for you to make, because you don't know the group, or our playstyle, but in an optimizers point of view? Remember, it doesn't have to be uber optimized to pwn everything and everyone that stands in my way. If not, I'll decide to go for a full caster build then.
I'm now going with the Cerebremancer and now I need some items. I have a total of 36,000 gold to spend. Items may only be from the SRD. This is my build:
STR to CHA
10, 16, 17, 19, 16, 10
I already added level based stat bumps and race modifiers
Race: Gnome, Rock
Alignment: Neutral Good
Deity: Garl Glittergold
ECL: 9 (41930 XP)
Classes: 3 Psion, 3 Wizard, 3 Cerebremancer(Wizard, Psion)
Psion Discipline: Clairsentience
No Wizard Specialization.
Skills:
Concentration 12 Ranks
Craft (Alchemy) 5 Ranks (more for RP flavour than for actual usage)
Knowledge(Arcana) 6 Ranks - Cerebremancer Prereq
Knowledge(Psionics) 6 Ranks - Cerebremancer Prereq
Listen 7 Ranks
Psicraft 6 Ranks - Our DMs normally don't use psionic monsters.
Spellcraft 12 Ranks
Spot 12 Ranks
Languages:
Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling (not sure if I can learn that language initially as a gnome - heroforge crossed it out on the selection)
Feats:
Improved Initiative - I picked that for early battlefield controlage
Spell Penetration - We are mostly fighting humans (rp campaign) and undead (another simultaneously campaign)
Endowment - +1 DC on psion powers
Scribe Scroll
Practiced Spellcaster Wizard
Practiced Manifester Psion
Attacks:
1 Light Crossbow w/ 10 bolts
Equipment I already have:
The crossbow and bolts
Spellcomponent pouch
Basic Adventerurs Gear like Backpack, Bedroll, Waterskin etc.
Spellbook
Artisan's Tools for crafting with alchemy
Alright, so 36,000 gold wait to be spent. I was thinking some +INT item, maybe armor bracers, a rod and some wands. What are your suggestions?
PS: I didn't want to open a new thread, since it's still the same character we are talking about, although it isn't a MyT anymore..
Int +4
Con +2
Dex +2
Saves +2
That's already 28k.
Then shore up your AC (deflection bonus, NA bonus, mithral light shield).
Also take a look at Metamagic Rods (extend in particular).
Pick up some scrolls/power stones for versatility (though you start off well in that respect).
You should choose your powers and spells in parallel.