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Mystic Theurge with only one Class

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
widow
Aug 23, 2008 19:39:41 There has been quite a few mystic theurge builds with versatile spell caster floating around, but I wanted to try a build that required only one spell caster class. That said there are a few requirements for this trick.

1) Dragon magazine access for Eldrich Master (#280)
2) Anyspell counting as the ability to cast arcane spells

2 is debated but often referenced in Dwenomer Keeper builds. If it is not allowed, there are other ways around it with a single arcane level. Here is the initial build idea (barebones).

Cleric 5/Eldrich Master 4/Mystic Theurge 4

Eldrich Master requirements are quite easy: several skills and the ability to cast arcane spells (anyspell). The reason for eldrich master is that at level 4, you may pick another class's spell list in which you can learn spells from. With the recent sage advice ruling Rainbow savant with warmage and beguiler bestows all clerical spells known to them, this could prove fruitful. Plus regardless if the class is arcane or divine, Eldrich Master stats the spells added are cast as arcane spells. At this point I would think a strange thing happens, the cleric becomes both an arcane and divine spell casting class. There are other examples of a divine and arcane casting class such as the Savant from the Dragon Compendium. Mystic Theurge allows progression of one arcane and one divine spell casting class, but does not specify they cannot be the same class. Eldrich master offers no progression, but if you can double up with mystic theurge, you can get right back on track with clerical casting progression.

Caveats are many. Some will not allow anyspell to qualify. Eldrich master does not specify you have to pick an arcane class to add the extra spell list to, but that was what was intended. Similarly RAW may allow doubling up of mystic theurge, but it might not get cleared. Cleric with arcane spells on its list cast as arcane spells might also not get "Arcane status."

But if this is by the RAW, it would make one class that is able to cast from multiple lists without falling behind (overall, there will be some tough levels in there if you play through them all). You could also overcome some of the weakness of Mystic theurge not being able to PrC. A build like below would be possible with 17 levels of progression and 9th level spells.

Cleric 5/ EM 4/ MT 1/ Dwemoner Keeper 10

If real arcane spell casting is needed, try the build below with 18 levels of progression in cleric. Note, you will be able to cast level 2 arcane spells

Beguiler or Sorc or Wizard 1/ Cleric 4/ EM 4/ MT 3/ Dwemoner Keeper 8

What does everyone think? Any rule holes against or support for these mechanics. This probably belongs on the therotical board, but this seems to be the only 3.5 board still active. Sorry if it is misplaced, but it was an idea I was throwing around and wanted to see what people thought.
#2
rebel7284
Aug 23, 2008 20:34:48 Just be a Kobold and do the two rituals to get a free sorcerer level.
#3
widow
Aug 23, 2008 21:22:45
Just be a Kobold and do the two rituals to get a free sorcerer level.

First ritual gets you a spell-like ability. Second ritual requires a level of sorc before you can under take it. It is fine for further advancing your sorc casting, but not really useful for this build. Dragonwrought is still good for the mental stat bonuses, but as the build is it is race independent.

Any comments on legality?
#4
gorfnad_the_shiznit
Aug 23, 2008 22:14:54 Ur-Chord might also work for you, tack on the feat Battles Caster for access to Mithral Fullplate, and Mindsight for 100ft of pinpointing fun. Also note that this build is legal with no need for caveats, versatile spellcaster, or rituals.

Bard 7/ Mindbender1/ Ur-priest 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Mystic Theurge 8

9th level arcane spells, 9th level divine spells, bardic stuff, rebuke undead, and a decent amount of skills.

However, theoretically Any Spell does say in its text that it is cast as a arcane spell, so theoretically a cleric with any spell would have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells which to some would mean that the cleric then qualifies for mystic theurge and other prestige classes. However I don't really see any competent DM letting this slip through unnoticed. In short I would say that using Any Spell like this would probably have to be DM caveat.
#5
widow
Aug 23, 2008 22:56:53
However, theoretically Any Spell does say in its text that it is cast as a arcane spell, so theoretically a cleric with any spell would have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells which to some would mean that the cleric then qualifies for mystic theurge and other prestige classes. However I don't really see any competent DM letting this slip through unnoticed. In short I would say that using Any Spell like this would probably have to be DM caveat.

The point of my build is not to make another dual caster theurge build for there are lots of those on the boards. The point is to get it all with one class and get double progression. This allows you to progress then in a more powerful PrC that is not so bland as a Mystic theurge.

I only listed using anyspell for an entry into Eldrich master since it is often used in Dwenomer Keeper (DK) builds (cheater of mystra anyone http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248239 ). Eldrich master does not progress an arcane spell casting class, it just adds more spells known to a class and has the requirement to be able to cast arcane spells to enter. Anyspell would not make the cleric an arcane class to progress with a PrC, I agree. It might allow you into eldrich master which in turn would add all the sorceror spells (assuming you picked that list) to you cleric spells, and those spells are all cast as arcane spells. That is how you qualify for mystic theurge, not using anyspell directly. A level of sorceror could always be used though if anyspell is not allowed.

What I am looking for is any holes in my logic for making the cleric an arcane/divine caster with eldrich master help. That is what is novel and allows for double progression. You could easily push it as below providing a caster level of 25 for the cleric with sorc and cleric spells (even higher when adding in other Eldrich Master boosts):

Sorc 1/ Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 10

or

For a caster progression of 20 with DK power added in:

Sorc 1/ Cleric 4/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 5/ DK 6

In the end a typical build like you suggested is probably more powerful, and my build has the usual problem of playing poorly at mid levels. Then again following the cheater of mystra build start you could get.

Cleric 5/ DK 10/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 1

9th level spells with full DK power. Fire up wish and true resurrection for free.

**Edited for clarity
#6
widow
Aug 23, 2008 23:32:09 Looks like the current Cheater of Mystra uses Magical Training giving you level 0 arcane spells that you can cast. Sorry for any confusion, that simplifies things. That provides solid entry for faerun builds. Below are a few examples, but there must be more interesting arcane PrC' to mix with this trick.

(17th caster) Cleric 5/ DK 10/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 1

(22nd Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Abjuration Champion 5

(22nd Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Shadowcraft Mage 5

(22nd Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Archmage 5

(17th Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Heirophant 5
#7
bill_bisco_average_adventurer
Aug 24, 2008 17:27:24 A Sha'ir from Dragon Compendium (or Dragon Magazine) can cast both Arcane and Divine Spells from it's base class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 widow Aug 23, 2008 19:39:41	There has been quite a few mystic theurge builds with versatile spell caster floating around, but I wanted to try a build that required only one spell caster class. That said there are a few requirements for this trick. 1) Dragon magazine access for Eldrich Master (#280) 2) Anyspell counting as the ability to cast arcane spells 2 is debated but often referenced in Dwenomer Keeper builds. If it is not allowed, there are other ways around it with a single arcane level. Here is the initial build idea (barebones). Cleric 5/Eldrich Master 4/Mystic Theurge 4 Eldrich Master requirements are quite easy: several skills and the ability to cast arcane spells (anyspell). The reason for eldrich master is that at level 4, you may pick another class's spell list in which you can learn spells from. With the recent sage advice ruling Rainbow savant with warmage and beguiler bestows all clerical spells known to them, this could prove fruitful. Plus regardless if the class is arcane or divine, Eldrich Master stats the spells added are cast as arcane spells. At this point I would think a strange thing happens, the cleric becomes both an arcane and divine spell casting class. There are other examples of a divine and arcane casting class such as the Savant from the Dragon Compendium. Mystic Theurge allows progression of one arcane and one divine spell casting class, but does not specify they cannot be the same class. Eldrich master offers no progression, but if you can double up with mystic theurge, you can get right back on track with clerical casting progression. Caveats are many. Some will not allow anyspell to qualify. Eldrich master does not specify you have to pick an arcane class to add the extra spell list to, but that was what was intended. Similarly RAW may allow doubling up of mystic theurge, but it might not get cleared. Cleric with arcane spells on its list cast as arcane spells might also not get "Arcane status." But if this is by the RAW, it would make one class that is able to cast from multiple lists without falling behind (overall, there will be some tough levels in there if you play through them all). You could also overcome some of the weakness of Mystic theurge not being able to PrC. A build like below would be possible with 17 levels of progression and 9th level spells. Cleric 5/ EM 4/ MT 1/ Dwemoner Keeper 10 If real arcane spell casting is needed, try the build below with 18 levels of progression in cleric. Note, you will be able to cast level 2 arcane spells Beguiler or Sorc or Wizard 1/ Cleric 4/ EM 4/ MT 3/ Dwemoner Keeper 8 What does everyone think? Any rule holes against or support for these mechanics. This probably belongs on the therotical board, but this seems to be the only 3.5 board still active. Sorry if it is misplaced, but it was an idea I was throwing around and wanted to see what people thought.
#2 rebel7284 Aug 23, 2008 20:34:48	Just be a Kobold and do the two rituals to get a free sorcerer level.
#3 widow Aug 23, 2008 21:22:45	Just be a Kobold and do the two rituals to get a free sorcerer level. First ritual gets you a spell-like ability. Second ritual requires a level of sorc before you can under take it. It is fine for further advancing your sorc casting, but not really useful for this build. Dragonwrought is still good for the mental stat bonuses, but as the build is it is race independent. Any comments on legality?
#4 gorfnad_the_shiznit Aug 23, 2008 22:14:54	Ur-Chord might also work for you, tack on the feat Battles Caster for access to Mithral Fullplate, and Mindsight for 100ft of pinpointing fun. Also note that this build is legal with no need for caveats, versatile spellcaster, or rituals. Bard 7/ Mindbender1/ Ur-priest 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 9th level arcane spells, 9th level divine spells, bardic stuff, rebuke undead, and a decent amount of skills. However, theoretically Any Spell does say in its text that it is cast as a arcane spell, so theoretically a cleric with any spell would have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells which to some would mean that the cleric then qualifies for mystic theurge and other prestige classes. However I don't really see any competent DM letting this slip through unnoticed. In short I would say that using Any Spell like this would probably have to be DM caveat.
#5 widow Aug 23, 2008 22:56:53	However, theoretically Any Spell does say in its text that it is cast as a arcane spell, so theoretically a cleric with any spell would have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells which to some would mean that the cleric then qualifies for mystic theurge and other prestige classes. However I don't really see any competent DM letting this slip through unnoticed. In short I would say that using Any Spell like this would probably have to be DM caveat. The point of my build is not to make another dual caster theurge build for there are lots of those on the boards. The point is to get it all with one class and get double progression. This allows you to progress then in a more powerful PrC that is not so bland as a Mystic theurge. I only listed using anyspell for an entry into Eldrich master since it is often used in Dwenomer Keeper (DK) builds (cheater of mystra anyone http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=248239 ). Eldrich master does not progress an arcane spell casting class, it just adds more spells known to a class and has the requirement to be able to cast arcane spells to enter. Anyspell would not make the cleric an arcane class to progress with a PrC, I agree. It might allow you into eldrich master which in turn would add all the sorceror spells (assuming you picked that list) to you cleric spells, and those spells are all cast as arcane spells. That is how you qualify for mystic theurge, not using anyspell directly. A level of sorceror could always be used though if anyspell is not allowed. What I am looking for is any holes in my logic for making the cleric an arcane/divine caster with eldrich master help. That is what is novel and allows for double progression. You could easily push it as below providing a caster level of 25 for the cleric with sorc and cleric spells (even higher when adding in other Eldrich Master boosts): Sorc 1/ Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 10 or For a caster progression of 20 with DK power added in: Sorc 1/ Cleric 4/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 5/ DK 6 In the end a typical build like you suggested is probably more powerful, and my build has the usual problem of playing poorly at mid levels. Then again following the cheater of mystra build start you could get. Cleric 5/ DK 10/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 1 9th level spells with full DK power. Fire up wish and true resurrection for free. **Edited for clarity
#6 widow Aug 23, 2008 23:32:09	Looks like the current Cheater of Mystra uses Magical Training giving you level 0 arcane spells that you can cast. Sorry for any confusion, that simplifies things. That provides solid entry for faerun builds. Below are a few examples, but there must be more interesting arcane PrC' to mix with this trick. (17th caster) Cleric 5/ DK 10/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 1 (22nd Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Abjuration Champion 5 (22nd Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Shadowcraft Mage 5 (22nd Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Archmage 5 (17th Caster) Cleric 5/ Eldrich Master 4/ Mystic Theurge 6/ Heirophant 5
#7 bill_bisco_average_adventurer Aug 24, 2008 17:27:24	A Sha'ir from Dragon Compendium (or Dragon Magazine) can cast both Arcane and Divine Spells from it's base class.