Nature warriors wilding stacking with Master of Many Forms - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Nature warriors wilding stacking with Master of Many Forms

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
vladthelad
Dec 30, 2008 16:52:59 A player of mine told me that Natures Warrior says it stacks with other prestige classes regarding widshape use.

The wilding class feature says:
Nature warrior class levels stack with druid levels (as well as levels in other prestige classes that allow these abilities to stack) to determine wildshape abilities and wild empathy checks.
For example Druid8/Natures warrior3 would be considered Druid 11 for the purposes of wildshape type size and frequency...

So following this logic a 5 level druid/1 level Master of Many forms/ 1 Nature warrior could wildshape as a 2nd level Master of Many forms gaining access to large size creatures, provided that Natures Warrior can stack with Master of Many Forms.

Is that true?
#2
surreal
Dec 30, 2008 17:24:55 No, you can't double dip like that.
#3
vladthelad
Dec 30, 2008 17:29:10 How could I argue that efficiently to my player?

I don't want him to feel I am simply banning this...

Thanks for answering surreal.
#4
natenate
Dec 30, 2008 17:57:25 Master of Many Forms doesn't stack with Druid levels for how many HD his Wild Shape forms can have, as-written. It's generally assumed that since it grants Wild Shape abilities, its levels stack for determining how many HD your forms can have, but it does not specify this anywhere in the class description. Therefore, Wilding cannot stack Nature's Warrior with MoMF, because MoMF does not stack with Druid. Tell your player that you would have allowed MoMF levels to stack with Druid levels to determine how many HD his forms would have, but he just ruined it and you're going with a strictly as-written ruling on the matter.
#5
ithamar
Dec 30, 2008 18:38:38 Actually, per Complete Adventurer errata, MoMF does stack with druid for purposes of maximum HD of forms to wild shape into.
#6
natenate
Dec 30, 2008 19:09:18 Forget what I said before then, and go with this:

Nature's Warrior stacks with Druid to determine Wild Shape abilities including Hit Dice, Size, and Type. It also stacks with other prestige classes that allow those abilities to stack. Master of Many Forms doesn't stack with Druid for those abilities, it follows its own progression for size and type and only stacks for hit dice. Therefore, Nature's Warrior will stack with Druid for size and type, and with both Druid and MoMF for hit dice. Nature's Warrior cannot increase both the Druid and MoMF progressions, and it specifies that it stacks with the Druid levels.
#7
vladthelad
Dec 31, 2008 12:26:08 Nice NateNate, I think that, pretty much covers it.
#8
dominusfuji
Jan 07, 2009 1:12:59 The wilding class feature says:
Nature warrior class levels stack with druid levels (as well as levels in other prestige classes that allow these abilities to stack) to determine wildshape abilities and wild empathy checks.
For example Druid8/Natures warrior3 would be considered Druid 11 for the purposes of wildshape type size and frequency...

What that means is.... lets break this down....
it says the levels stack with druid lvls as well as lvls in any other class that allow these abilities to stack... then it list the abilities... in other words it is saying " Nature warrior class lvls stack with any class that uses lvls to determine wildshape and wild empathy checks".... That includes MMF.... Which means if you had any other class that had wild empathy for instance, then that would be boosted also. Even though this is a weird loophole that they left open and seems really cheap. if you look at the two wildshape progression charts, having both of them progress at the same time is not that useful at all anyway (they overlap the same things at diffrent lvls anyway)... Any arguments?
#9
reji
Jan 07, 2009 17:58:42 I don't have the books on me, but to sum it all up;
All the wildshaping stacks for these things -

How many HD you can change into.
How many hours wildshape lasts.
How many wildshapes per day you get.

You won't gain types, and sizes or other class abilities from previous wildshape class.

Druid 8/ Natures warrior 3 will be able to wildshape into HD 11 monsters, Druid wildshapes/day + natures wildshapes/day, for 11 hours.

He will still be limited to the types and sizes of Druid 8, and Warrior 3 however.

If you're not so much for druid spells, you should take ranger varriant and gain wildshape at level 2, then go MoMF
#10
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Jan 08, 2009 0:41:20 I am sorry guys, but VladtheLad was closer (there is an item that does exactly that and I use it) and Dominusfuji is the only one who actually has it.

If you have say 4 classes that add to the three Wildshape stats (but give or don't give seperate WS progressions) and then you can use the wilding ability to make those classes all stack together.

Usually that would already be the case right? Well there are a few (strange) circumstances where you can take advantage of this and I use one in my CoDzilla build (#2) in the link in my sig.

My build is confusing and way beyond the scope of the question though so I'll offer a different one: Lets say for sake of argument that that strange Wildshaping template that Pun-Pun uses actually does give wildshape as a druid or whatever. Okay so you take Druid 1 then that template to enter MoMF. But your Druid 1 would not normally add HD to your MoMF. This is where Nature's warrior's Wilding ability come into play. It specifically says your druid levels stack for wildshape (though it says nothing about having to have WS yet from your druid levels). Depending on how you interpret the stacking of the 'as druid of level X' from that damn template, this could be even juicer.

Congradulations Nature's warrior allowed you to 'gain back' those WS'ing levels much like Practiced Manifester allows you to get back some lost ML.
#11
surreal
Jan 08, 2009 15:13:56 Ugh, why must you guys try to rules lawyer things? Just stack them straight, no doubling up, keep it simple.
#12
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Jan 14, 2009 0:02:02 But rule lawyering is fun! (So long as it keeps the flavor xor intent - but this is only a personal guidline)
#13
jameswilliamogle
Jan 14, 2009 7:52:42 How would a Druid 5 / Nature's Warrior 3 / Bloodline 3 work for determining what they can wildshape into, though?
#14
PlzBreakMyCampaign
Jan 19, 2009 23:50:43 Just like normal; a Druid 5, Nature's Warrior 3 with a (3 pseudo level) major bloodline would have effective druid level of 11 for all wildshaping criteria.

Check my Balanced Bloodlines Interpretation for more information on bloodlines stacking.

Wilding just helps stack classes and PrCs wildshaping (sometimes future) capabilities when they would not ordinarily stack with each other.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vladthelad Dec 30, 2008 16:52:59	A player of mine told me that Natures Warrior says it stacks with other prestige classes regarding widshape use. The wilding class feature says: Nature warrior class levels stack with druid levels (as well as levels in other prestige classes that allow these abilities to stack) to determine wildshape abilities and wild empathy checks. For example Druid8/Natures warrior3 would be considered Druid 11 for the purposes of wildshape type size and frequency... So following this logic a 5 level druid/1 level Master of Many forms/ 1 Nature warrior could wildshape as a 2nd level Master of Many forms gaining access to large size creatures, provided that Natures Warrior can stack with Master of Many Forms. Is that true?
#2 surreal Dec 30, 2008 17:24:55	No, you can't double dip like that.
#3 vladthelad Dec 30, 2008 17:29:10	How could I argue that efficiently to my player? I don't want him to feel I am simply banning this... Thanks for answering surreal.
#4 natenate Dec 30, 2008 17:57:25	Master of Many Forms doesn't stack with Druid levels for how many HD his Wild Shape forms can have, as-written. It's generally assumed that since it grants Wild Shape abilities, its levels stack for determining how many HD your forms can have, but it does not specify this anywhere in the class description. Therefore, Wilding cannot stack Nature's Warrior with MoMF, because MoMF does not stack with Druid. Tell your player that you would have allowed MoMF levels to stack with Druid levels to determine how many HD his forms would have, but he just ruined it and you're going with a strictly as-written ruling on the matter.
#5 ithamar Dec 30, 2008 18:38:38	Actually, per Complete Adventurer errata, MoMF does stack with druid for purposes of maximum HD of forms to wild shape into.
#6 natenate Dec 30, 2008 19:09:18	Forget what I said before then, and go with this: Nature's Warrior stacks with Druid to determine Wild Shape abilities including Hit Dice, Size, and Type. It also stacks with other prestige classes that allow those abilities to stack. Master of Many Forms doesn't stack with Druid for those abilities, it follows its own progression for size and type and only stacks for hit dice. Therefore, Nature's Warrior will stack with Druid for size and type, and with both Druid and MoMF for hit dice. Nature's Warrior cannot increase both the Druid and MoMF progressions, and it specifies that it stacks with the Druid levels.
#7 vladthelad Dec 31, 2008 12:26:08	Nice NateNate, I think that, pretty much covers it.
#8 dominusfuji Jan 07, 2009 1:12:59	The wilding class feature says: Nature warrior class levels stack with druid levels (as well as levels in other prestige classes that allow these abilities to stack) to determine wildshape abilities and wild empathy checks. For example Druid8/Natures warrior3 would be considered Druid 11 for the purposes of wildshape type size and frequency... What that means is.... lets break this down.... it says the levels stack with druid lvls as well as lvls in any other class that allow these abilities to stack... then it list the abilities... in other words it is saying " Nature warrior class lvls stack with any class that uses lvls to determine wildshape and wild empathy checks".... That includes MMF.... Which means if you had any other class that had wild empathy for instance, then that would be boosted also. Even though this is a weird loophole that they left open and seems really cheap. if you look at the two wildshape progression charts, having both of them progress at the same time is not that useful at all anyway (they overlap the same things at diffrent lvls anyway)... Any arguments?
#9 reji Jan 07, 2009 17:58:42	I don't have the books on me, but to sum it all up; All the wildshaping stacks for these things - How many HD you can change into. How many hours wildshape lasts. How many wildshapes per day you get. You won't gain types, and sizes or other class abilities from previous wildshape class. Druid 8/ Natures warrior 3 will be able to wildshape into HD 11 monsters, Druid wildshapes/day + natures wildshapes/day, for 11 hours. He will still be limited to the types and sizes of Druid 8, and Warrior 3 however. If you're not so much for druid spells, you should take ranger varriant and gain wildshape at level 2, then go MoMF
#10 PlzBreakMyCampaign Jan 08, 2009 0:41:20	I am sorry guys, but VladtheLad was closer (there is an item that does exactly that and I use it) and Dominusfuji is the only one who actually has it. If you have say 4 classes that add to the three Wildshape stats (but give or don't give seperate WS progressions) and then you can use the wilding ability to make those classes all stack together. Usually that would already be the case right? Well there are a few (strange) circumstances where you can take advantage of this and I use one in my CoDzilla build (#2) in the link in my sig. My build is confusing and way beyond the scope of the question though so I'll offer a different one: Lets say for sake of argument that that strange Wildshaping template that Pun-Pun uses actually does give wildshape as a druid or whatever. Okay so you take Druid 1 then that template to enter MoMF. But your Druid 1 would not normally add HD to your MoMF. This is where Nature's warrior's Wilding ability come into play. It specifically says your druid levels stack for wildshape (though it says nothing about having to have WS yet from your druid levels). Depending on how you interpret the stacking of the 'as druid of level X' from that damn template, this could be even juicer. Congradulations Nature's warrior allowed you to 'gain back' those WS'ing levels much like Practiced Manifester allows you to get back some lost ML.
#11 surreal Jan 08, 2009 15:13:56	Ugh, why must you guys try to rules lawyer things? Just stack them straight, no doubling up, keep it simple.
#12 PlzBreakMyCampaign Jan 14, 2009 0:02:02	But rule lawyering is fun! (So long as it keeps the flavor xor intent - but this is only a personal guidline)
#13 jameswilliamogle Jan 14, 2009 7:52:42	How would a Druid 5 / Nature's Warrior 3 / Bloodline 3 work for determining what they can wildshape into, though?
#14 PlzBreakMyCampaign Jan 19, 2009 23:50:43	Just like normal; a Druid 5, Nature's Warrior 3 with a (3 pseudo level) major bloodline would have effective druid level of 11 for all wildshaping criteria. Check my Balanced Bloodlines Interpretation for more information on bloodlines stacking. Wilding just helps stack classes and PrCs wildshaping (sometimes future) capabilities when they would not ordinarily stack with each other.