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Necesary Inconvenient Built

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
frerezar
Dec 18, 2008 9:32:30 Ok I need to know if there is way to finish both beholder mage and fiend of possesion on the same built.
Just want to point out also that every book is allowed exept for UA and dragon. And that I am the DM , so if for it to happdn it would require some rule tweakin I a willing to compromise. The thing is that it would just be ideal for an NPC to share those two PrC.
#2
pithica
Dec 18, 2008 10:12:31 I don't see any reason why an outsider that otherwise qualified for Fiend of Possession couldn't use the same polymorph/assume Su cheese a human could to qualify for Beholder Mage after progressing in the Fiend of Possession PrC. At least, not from memory.
#3
jenos
Dec 18, 2008 15:37:06 The issue with that is once you no longer become an outsider(Because you're a beholder) you no longer meet the pre-reqs of fiend of possesion, and then promptly lose the benefits of the class.

The problem here is that you need to both be a beholder, and an outsider(evil). While I can easily figure out how to become an outsider(native), evil is a bit harder. Outsider(native) is obtained through picking up the otherwordly feat.
#4
turok124
Dec 18, 2008 15:57:13 what if he's a fiendish beholder? outsider type AND still a true beholder....?

or i'm wrong
#5
Grumman
Dec 18, 2008 16:07:15
what if he's a fiendish beholder? outsider type AND still a true beholder....?

or i'm wrong

I think you're thinking of Half-Fiend. That would make him an outsider but wouldn't give him the [evil] subtype.
#6
jenos
Dec 18, 2008 16:18:15 If there is a template that gives the outsider(evil) type and subtype, that could work if the template could be applied to a beholder. As he would then be an outsider though, you would need to be an outsider to polymoprh into it.

Human with otherworldly could work yet again, allow you to be PAO'd into the beholder with the template, then proceed to take the levels of BM and FoP as desired. You need to find a template that gives outsider(evil) for that to function, however, and I don't know any off the top of my head.
#7
deathwishjoe
Dec 18, 2008 17:16:51 Divine minion template grants you outsider and the evil subtype. However once you use polymorph any object to change into an outsider you are unable to change into a divine minion beholder as you cant change into a creature with a template. So you'd need to start out as a beholder and then add the divine minion which I think can only be added to something with the humanoid subtype. so we have a bit of a catch 22.

heres my solution however. start off with the divine minion template. have PaO cast on you or use the cleric highten spell extra slot cheese to cast PaO once a day. then go into the warshaper PrC till your at level 5 in that PrC. this allows you to freely change between valid forms from whatever it is you can change into. since PaO lets you change into anything of 20 HD or less you can swap from something with the evil outsider (a succubus?) to a beholder to use the class features you want when you want. its the best solution since you cant start as a beholder and cant keep your templated type and subtype
#8
awaken_D_M_golem
Dec 18, 2008 17:21:03 This is over my head(s).
So what does this build look like?
I know the Psi into Beholder Mage stuff ...
Warshaper?
Fiend of Possession?
#9
frerezar
Dec 19, 2008 9:30:01 Ok i was looking up ways to have the evil suptype. So i found this ritual that gives it to you. So a human with the otherwordly feat would be able to be native otusider with the evil subtype witout having a template. And then use the traditional psion way to get into beholder mage. Is there anything wrong with this idea? If i am not mystaken the psion way doesn't take away my oursiderness (not a word) when I turn into a beholder. If i am wrong please tell me, I hate to use stuff against my players that isn't legal
#10
jenos
Dec 19, 2008 10:15:35 What ritual is it that gives the subtype? That should work, allowing you to use whatever means you want to nab the overall subtype.

That being said, you can get into beholder mage faster than using psion by use a wizard. While it costs you 2 feats instead of 1, you save 2-3 levels by doing it.

Human Wizard 3/Beholder Mage 10/Fiend of Possesion 6 is an entirely vaild build. If you go psion or psiwar you can't take all 6 levels of FoP without hitting epic levels(Though that may not be a concern for you). The trick to this is to use the fact you can change your form as a wizard by use of spells, then take the feat assume supernatural ability twicve to get the two su abilities you need. Then get PAO into the beholder, and you're good to go.
#11
frerezar
Dec 19, 2008 10:49:06 sorry if I am being annoying. But how do i get into BM with only wizard 3? Please please elaborate. Soo wen a player asks 'how the **** did you do that_' i do have an answer. is the answer by using just a scroll of PAO?
#12
jenos
Dec 19, 2008 11:11:53 The three things you need to be a beholder mage are: A. Be a beholder. B. Put out antimagic eye. C. Have eye stalks to convert to spell stalks.

Now, the psionic way to do it is to make use of the metamorphic transfer feat to make sure when you shift into a beholder you get the supernatural ability. However, the requirements of metamorphic transfer is needing a ML of 5.

The feat Assume Supernatural Ability, from SS, allows you to do the same as metamorphic transfer, except the requirements are a bit different. You no longer need any specfic levels, you simply need to be able to magically change your form. Now, there are two ways of looking at this. If you say the spell disguise self allows you to magically change your form, then you can pick your feats up as H: Otherwordly, 1: Assume Supernatural Ability(Antimagic Eye) 3: Assume Supernatural Ability(Eye Stalks). The other interpretation says that you need a polymorph based spell to function(Alter self). Alter self can be gotten at level 3, meaning that your feats instead look like this. 1: Otherwordly. 3: Assume Suprnatural ability(Antimagic Eye). 6: Assume Supernatural ability(Eye stalks). This issue with this interpretation is that your character cannot cast any spells until it has the feat at 6. However, since you are not going to be sending this guy at your players until higher levels, it will be fine.

Now that you have the ways to actually get the abilities, you need to be turned into a beholder. Thats what PAO comes into play. Get a caster to cast it on you, and bam, beholder goodness. Note that doing this makes you vurnerable to dispels, so make sure to carry some antidispel stuff on your beholder.
#13
frerezar
Dec 19, 2008 11:22:55 Ok that's what I tought, I just wantesd t make sure it involevd another caster, so I can tie it in to the storyline. Now I have one mre thing to ask out of this beautifull boards. I don't like to just leave fast progres casting prC alone. i always give them a Prc on top. So how woudl I be able to give that BM progrssion an Unseen seer twist? I'd have to take beholder mage later on so i can meet the skills requirements for the seer. (I just think their undetectability works well with the fiend of possesion)
#14
deathwishjoe
Dec 19, 2008 11:54:04 well your third level feat would need to be assume super natural ability (anitmagic Eye ) it can be found in savage species book. after that spend yoru character wealth on having a spell caster cast polymorph any object on you to change you into a beholder. it'll probably take 2 castings to make it perminant
#15
jenos
Dec 19, 2008 17:22:49
Ok that's what I tought, I just wantesd t make sure it involevd another caster, so I can tie it in to the storyline. Now I have one mre thing to ask out of this beautifull boards. I don't like to just leave fast progres casting prC alone. i always give them a Prc on top. So how woudl I be able to give that BM progrssion an Unseen seer twist? I'd have to take beholder mage later on so i can meet the skills requirements for the seer. (I just think their undetectability works well with the fiend of possesion)

It depends if you want to have all 10 levels of Unseen Seer.

Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Beholder Mage 1/Unseen Seer 9/Fiend of Possesion 6 is a valid ECL 20 build. You don't get the last caster level or bonus 1d6 damage of unseen seer, but thats it. You still have a CL of 20 at level 20, along with 4d6 sneak attack and +2 Divination spellpower, and guarded mind. Note you need a very high intelligence to pull this off. You need to take Wizard 1-3, meaning that with an int of 18 to start off, you can get 3 ranks into search, spot, sense motive, and hide, and the 4 you need in spellcraft. At level 4, take rogue, dumping your now 13 skill points into maxing out search, spot, hide, and getting 4 ranks in sense motive. That means at level 4 you should have 7 ranks in search spot hide and 4 in spellcraft and sense motive. Then transform into a Beholder, and take your first level of beholder mage, putting the last needed rank into hide/spot/search.
#16
Endarire
Dec 19, 2008 18:28:16 First, polymorph any object has a 15HD cap.

Second, what true beholders have 4 or fewer HD? A gauth has 6HD but that's the lowest of which I know.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frerezar Dec 18, 2008 9:32:30	Ok I need to know if there is way to finish both beholder mage and fiend of possesion on the same built. Just want to point out also that every book is allowed exept for UA and dragon. And that I am the DM , so if for it to happdn it would require some rule tweakin I a willing to compromise. The thing is that it would just be ideal for an NPC to share those two PrC.
#2 pithica Dec 18, 2008 10:12:31	I don't see any reason why an outsider that otherwise qualified for Fiend of Possession couldn't use the same polymorph/assume Su cheese a human could to qualify for Beholder Mage after progressing in the Fiend of Possession PrC. At least, not from memory.
#3 jenos Dec 18, 2008 15:37:06	The issue with that is once you no longer become an outsider(Because you're a beholder) you no longer meet the pre-reqs of fiend of possesion, and then promptly lose the benefits of the class. The problem here is that you need to both be a beholder, and an outsider(evil). While I can easily figure out how to become an outsider(native), evil is a bit harder. Outsider(native) is obtained through picking up the otherwordly feat.
#4 turok124 Dec 18, 2008 15:57:13	what if he's a fiendish beholder? outsider type AND still a true beholder....? or i'm wrong
#5 Grumman Dec 18, 2008 16:07:15	what if he's a fiendish beholder? outsider type AND still a true beholder....? or i'm wrong I think you're thinking of Half-Fiend. That would make him an outsider but wouldn't give him the [evil] subtype.
#6 jenos Dec 18, 2008 16:18:15	If there is a template that gives the outsider(evil) type and subtype, that could work if the template could be applied to a beholder. As he would then be an outsider though, you would need to be an outsider to polymoprh into it. Human with otherworldly could work yet again, allow you to be PAO'd into the beholder with the template, then proceed to take the levels of BM and FoP as desired. You need to find a template that gives outsider(evil) for that to function, however, and I don't know any off the top of my head.
#7 deathwishjoe Dec 18, 2008 17:16:51	Divine minion template grants you outsider and the evil subtype. However once you use polymorph any object to change into an outsider you are unable to change into a divine minion beholder as you cant change into a creature with a template. So you'd need to start out as a beholder and then add the divine minion which I think can only be added to something with the humanoid subtype. so we have a bit of a catch 22. heres my solution however. start off with the divine minion template. have PaO cast on you or use the cleric highten spell extra slot cheese to cast PaO once a day. then go into the warshaper PrC till your at level 5 in that PrC. this allows you to freely change between valid forms from whatever it is you can change into. since PaO lets you change into anything of 20 HD or less you can swap from something with the evil outsider (a succubus?) to a beholder to use the class features you want when you want. its the best solution since you cant start as a beholder and cant keep your templated type and subtype
#8 awaken_D_M_golem Dec 18, 2008 17:21:03	This is over my head(s). So what does this build look like? I know the Psi into Beholder Mage stuff ... Warshaper? Fiend of Possession?
#9 frerezar Dec 19, 2008 9:30:01	Ok i was looking up ways to have the evil suptype. So i found this ritual that gives it to you. So a human with the otherwordly feat would be able to be native otusider with the evil subtype witout having a template. And then use the traditional psion way to get into beholder mage. Is there anything wrong with this idea? If i am not mystaken the psion way doesn't take away my oursiderness (not a word) when I turn into a beholder. If i am wrong please tell me, I hate to use stuff against my players that isn't legal
#10 jenos Dec 19, 2008 10:15:35	What ritual is it that gives the subtype? That should work, allowing you to use whatever means you want to nab the overall subtype. That being said, you can get into beholder mage faster than using psion by use a wizard. While it costs you 2 feats instead of 1, you save 2-3 levels by doing it. Human Wizard 3/Beholder Mage 10/Fiend of Possesion 6 is an entirely vaild build. If you go psion or psiwar you can't take all 6 levels of FoP without hitting epic levels(Though that may not be a concern for you). The trick to this is to use the fact you can change your form as a wizard by use of spells, then take the feat assume supernatural ability twicve to get the two su abilities you need. Then get PAO into the beholder, and you're good to go.
#11 frerezar Dec 19, 2008 10:49:06	sorry if I am being annoying. But how do i get into BM with only wizard 3? Please please elaborate. Soo wen a player asks 'how the **** did you do that_' i do have an answer. is the answer by using just a scroll of PAO?
#12 jenos Dec 19, 2008 11:11:53	The three things you need to be a beholder mage are: A. Be a beholder. B. Put out antimagic eye. C. Have eye stalks to convert to spell stalks. Now, the psionic way to do it is to make use of the metamorphic transfer feat to make sure when you shift into a beholder you get the supernatural ability. However, the requirements of metamorphic transfer is needing a ML of 5. The feat Assume Supernatural Ability, from SS, allows you to do the same as metamorphic transfer, except the requirements are a bit different. You no longer need any specfic levels, you simply need to be able to magically change your form. Now, there are two ways of looking at this. If you say the spell disguise self allows you to magically change your form, then you can pick your feats up as H: Otherwordly, 1: Assume Supernatural Ability(Antimagic Eye) 3: Assume Supernatural Ability(Eye Stalks). The other interpretation says that you need a polymorph based spell to function(Alter self). Alter self can be gotten at level 3, meaning that your feats instead look like this. 1: Otherwordly. 3: Assume Suprnatural ability(Antimagic Eye). 6: Assume Supernatural ability(Eye stalks). This issue with this interpretation is that your character cannot cast any spells until it has the feat at 6. However, since you are not going to be sending this guy at your players until higher levels, it will be fine. Now that you have the ways to actually get the abilities, you need to be turned into a beholder. Thats what PAO comes into play. Get a caster to cast it on you, and bam, beholder goodness. Note that doing this makes you vurnerable to dispels, so make sure to carry some antidispel stuff on your beholder.
#13 frerezar Dec 19, 2008 11:22:55	Ok that's what I tought, I just wantesd t make sure it involevd another caster, so I can tie it in to the storyline. Now I have one mre thing to ask out of this beautifull boards. I don't like to just leave fast progres casting prC alone. i always give them a Prc on top. So how woudl I be able to give that BM progrssion an Unseen seer twist? I'd have to take beholder mage later on so i can meet the skills requirements for the seer. (I just think their undetectability works well with the fiend of possesion)
#14 deathwishjoe Dec 19, 2008 11:54:04	well your third level feat would need to be assume super natural ability (anitmagic Eye ) it can be found in savage species book. after that spend yoru character wealth on having a spell caster cast polymorph any object on you to change you into a beholder. it'll probably take 2 castings to make it perminant
#15 jenos Dec 19, 2008 17:22:49	Ok that's what I tought, I just wantesd t make sure it involevd another caster, so I can tie it in to the storyline. Now I have one mre thing to ask out of this beautifull boards. I don't like to just leave fast progres casting prC alone. i always give them a Prc on top. So how woudl I be able to give that BM progrssion an Unseen seer twist? I'd have to take beholder mage later on so i can meet the skills requirements for the seer. (I just think their undetectability works well with the fiend of possesion) It depends if you want to have all 10 levels of Unseen Seer. Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Beholder Mage 1/Unseen Seer 9/Fiend of Possesion 6 is a valid ECL 20 build. You don't get the last caster level or bonus 1d6 damage of unseen seer, but thats it. You still have a CL of 20 at level 20, along with 4d6 sneak attack and +2 Divination spellpower, and guarded mind. Note you need a very high intelligence to pull this off. You need to take Wizard 1-3, meaning that with an int of 18 to start off, you can get 3 ranks into search, spot, sense motive, and hide, and the 4 you need in spellcraft. At level 4, take rogue, dumping your now 13 skill points into maxing out search, spot, hide, and getting 4 ranks in sense motive. That means at level 4 you should have 7 ranks in search spot hide and 4 in spellcraft and sense motive. Then transform into a Beholder, and take your first level of beholder mage, putting the last needed rank into hide/spot/search.
#16 Endarire Dec 19, 2008 18:28:16	First, polymorph any object has a 15HD cap. Second, what true beholders have 4 or fewer HD? A gauth has 6HD but that's the lowest of which I know.