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Necromancer help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
clockworkrevenge
May 12, 2008 0:14:58 is there a guide to nercomancy that some ones created?

Im creating a necromancer for a new campaign, heres the relivant info:

Turn/Rebuke is a unique/special spell that must be cast at the wizards highest level, and it uses intelligence, but otherwise is exactly the same as standard turn/rebuke
The necromanecer gets inflict/cure as necromancy spells at their normal cleric levels
Animate undead is a first level spell

This necromancer, given the above variants, is going to focus a lot more on death/undead than curses/whatever they say normal necromancers focus on.

Material used for play is, the core rule books, the entire complete series, libris mortis, planar handbook, basicly everything except psionic stuff, ToB and ToM.

For my build im thinking: Necromancer 6/Master Specialist 3/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Loremaster 10
This is a flavorful build, but i like it.

Lets here your ideas! :D

(Im taking no levels of dread necromancer)
#2
jaronk
May 12, 2008 0:28:24 Gah, your DM allowed Animate Dead at level 1? Geez. Take the varient from UA that increases the HD of your necromatically created minions plus Corpsecrafter, and be human so you can slap on Deadly Chill. Also, take the varient that gives you a skeletal minion (he should have the bonuses of those two feats). Now see if you can find a graveyard and make a pair of level 1 human warrior Zombies with Animate Dead. They'll be more than a match for any CR 1 opponent.

JaronK
#3
clockworkrevenge
May 12, 2008 0:38:50
Gah, your DM allowed Animate Dead at level 1? Geez. Take the varient from UA that increases the HD of your necromatically created minions plus Corpsecrafter, and be human so you can slap on Deadly Chill. Also, take the varient that gives you a skeletal minion (he should have the bonuses of those two feats). Now see if you can find a graveyard and make a pair of level 1 human warrior Zombies with Animate Dead. They'll be more than a match for any CR 1 opponent.

JaronK

Animate dead is a self balancing spell.. at level one the most i can have is a 2HD creature, not so beefy. Furthermore, the skeletal minion variant is soooo broken i dont even wanna take it.
#4
phaedrusxy
May 12, 2008 0:58:44 http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129
#5
clockworkrevenge
May 12, 2008 1:06:07
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129

well then, my necromancer will be dominant sense he'll have rebuke/turn :]
#6
jaronk
May 12, 2008 1:53:52
Animate dead is a self balancing spell.. at level one the most i can have is a 2HD creature, not so beefy. Furthermore, the skeletal minion variant is soooo broken i dont even wanna take it.

How do you figure the minion is broken? It's just a tank. It's usually considered weak, but with Corpse Crafter in play it might be worthwhile.

However, at level 1 those Animate Dead tanks are quite nasty. You can have two of them, and with the varient and Corpse Crafter they'd each have 21 hitpoints. That's VERY good at level 1.

Use Orc skeletons if you can, actually. They'd be best.

JaronK
#7
clockworkrevenge
May 12, 2008 2:15:43
How do you figure the minion is broken? It's just a tank. It's usually considered weak, but with Corpse Crafter in play it might be worthwhile.

is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken.
#8
jaronk
May 12, 2008 2:25:43
is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken.

No, it's not better than a familiar, and it's certainly worse than some other possible familiar tradeouts.

Why do you think it's better than a familiar? Heck, you can apply Improved Familiar to a familiar and not to this varient, and that makes a far better fighty type, if you so chose. But me, I want the ability to deliver spells through my familiar, which can be very handy.

JaronK
#9
reis
May 12, 2008 3:15:16
is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken.

Disagree, just because something is a good trade off, does not make it game breaking.

also, do a search for "uttercold assault necromancer", that isn't a bad wizard-necro way to go
#10
clockworkrevenge
May 12, 2008 3:47:42
No, it's not better than a familiar, and it's certainly worse than some other possible familiar tradeouts.

Why do you think it's better than a familiar? Heck, you can apply Improved Familiar to a familiar and not to this varient, and that makes a far better fighty type, if you so chose. But me, I want the ability to deliver spells through my familiar, which can be very handy.

JaronK

In the games i play familliars are the first thing to get stomped into dust... so theyre pretty garbagy. Overall benefit is always better than specifics.
#11
brainpiercing
May 12, 2008 6:16:55 No scaling with prestige classes makes the undead minion obsolete, IMHO. Also, it seems RAW you can't apply necromancy feats to it, so it'll be quite fragile pretty quickly, while other undead won't be. The scaling hitdice are quite worthless, because undead hitdice are really worth very little - without necromancy feats to boost HP and Str/Dex.
#12
phaedrusxy
May 12, 2008 10:56:51
is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken.

Animate Dead at 1st level is about 4x more powerful than this stupid variant. The only real advantage this has over a familiar is there is no penalty when it gets destroyed. Your animated undead can do anything this thing can do. Familiars have tons more advantages than these things. Just because your DM hates familiars and kills yours ASAP doesn't mean they are mechanically crappy, per the rules and everyone else's games. I do think that the penalties for losing a familiar are way too extreme, and house rule them away, but if you're careful with them and your DM isn't a douche, then they can be quite useful even with the penalties.
#13
alastar
May 12, 2008 11:04:33 Yup, and also, a familiar can cast spells for you, gives you +2 to all your skills, +2 to attack rolls, and can use wands if your a bit imaginative.

and lets not even talk about getting some feats for it, like dragon familiar, wich allows you to basically entangle every ennemy, for free, every round, throught your familiar.

Yeah, familiars are broken, not undead minion
#14
sinfire_titan
May 12, 2008 11:08:26
In the games i play familliars are the first thing to get stomped into dust... so theyre pretty garbagy. Overall benefit is always better than specifics.

Then you're not playing them right! Polymorph/Scouting is what the Familiar is meant for. Just look at Pun-Pun, his Familiar is bad-ass. Also, doubling your actions/round via UMD+Imbue Familiar with SLA is damn good.
#15
sinfire_titan
May 12, 2008 11:09:24
Animate Dead at 1st level is about 4x more powerful than this stupid variant. The only real advantage this has over a familiar is there is no penalty when it gets destroyed. Your animated undead can do anything this thing can do. Familiars have tons more advantages than these things. Just because your DM hates familiars and kills yours ASAP doesn't mean they are mechanically crappy, per the rules and everyone else's games. I do think that the penalties for losing a familiar are way too extreme, and house rule them away, but if you're careful with them and your DM isn't a douche, then they can be quite useful even with the penalties.

Every see an Imp with Craft (Basketweaving)?
#16
loganic1
May 12, 2008 12:05:25 How rich is your character? What level is your character?

I don't think this is practical, but if you could convince your DM to give you a single free item, get yourself a rod of defiance.
Rod of Defiance: -4 Turn Resistance to all undead within 30 ft. of the wielder. Also functions as a +2 mace. 13k

Lyre of the Restful Soul: -4 Turn Resistance to all undead within 60 ft. for 10 rounds. Requires a DC 15 perform check. Only 3k!

If you could get a RoD, you could control a 5HD creature for only an effective 1HD. At level 10, if you have both, you could control 10 9HD. Too bad that doesn't affect animate dead, only turn/rebuke

Look at Complete Divine. There's several feats that let you give up a number of uses of Turn/Rebuke. I don't know if you could give up spell slots in which you prepare turn/rebuke.

Also, I forget what the feat is called that lets you get a domain. If you're going to be animating, . . . well deathbound sounds good.

Look at the revised necromancer's handbook

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 clockworkrevenge May 12, 2008 0:14:58	is there a guide to nercomancy that some ones created? Im creating a necromancer for a new campaign, heres the relivant info: Turn/Rebuke is a unique/special spell that must be cast at the wizards highest level, and it uses intelligence, but otherwise is exactly the same as standard turn/rebuke The necromanecer gets inflict/cure as necromancy spells at their normal cleric levels Animate undead is a first level spell This necromancer, given the above variants, is going to focus a lot more on death/undead than curses/whatever they say normal necromancers focus on. Material used for play is, the core rule books, the entire complete series, libris mortis, planar handbook, basicly everything except psionic stuff, ToB and ToM. For my build im thinking: Necromancer 6/Master Specialist 3/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Loremaster 10 This is a flavorful build, but i like it. Lets here your ideas! :D (Im taking no levels of dread necromancer)
#2 jaronk May 12, 2008 0:28:24	Gah, your DM allowed Animate Dead at level 1? Geez. Take the varient from UA that increases the HD of your necromatically created minions plus Corpsecrafter, and be human so you can slap on Deadly Chill. Also, take the varient that gives you a skeletal minion (he should have the bonuses of those two feats). Now see if you can find a graveyard and make a pair of level 1 human warrior Zombies with Animate Dead. They'll be more than a match for any CR 1 opponent. JaronK
#3 clockworkrevenge May 12, 2008 0:38:50	Gah, your DM allowed Animate Dead at level 1? Geez. Take the varient from UA that increases the HD of your necromatically created minions plus Corpsecrafter, and be human so you can slap on Deadly Chill. Also, take the varient that gives you a skeletal minion (he should have the bonuses of those two feats). Now see if you can find a graveyard and make a pair of level 1 human warrior Zombies with Animate Dead. They'll be more than a match for any CR 1 opponent. JaronK Animate dead is a self balancing spell.. at level one the most i can have is a 2HD creature, not so beefy. Furthermore, the skeletal minion variant is soooo broken i dont even wanna take it.
#4 phaedrusxy May 12, 2008 0:58:44	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129
#5 clockworkrevenge May 12, 2008 1:06:07	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129 well then, my necromancer will be dominant sense he'll have rebuke/turn :]
#6 jaronk May 12, 2008 1:53:52	Animate dead is a self balancing spell.. at level one the most i can have is a 2HD creature, not so beefy. Furthermore, the skeletal minion variant is soooo broken i dont even wanna take it. How do you figure the minion is broken? It's just a tank. It's usually considered weak, but with Corpse Crafter in play it might be worthwhile. However, at level 1 those Animate Dead tanks are quite nasty. You can have two of them, and with the varient and Corpse Crafter they'd each have 21 hitpoints. That's VERY good at level 1. Use Orc skeletons if you can, actually. They'd be best. JaronK
#7 clockworkrevenge May 12, 2008 2:15:43	How do you figure the minion is broken? It's just a tank. It's usually considered weak, but with Corpse Crafter in play it might be worthwhile. is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken.
#8 jaronk May 12, 2008 2:25:43	is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken. No, it's not better than a familiar, and it's certainly worse than some other possible familiar tradeouts. Why do you think it's better than a familiar? Heck, you can apply Improved Familiar to a familiar and not to this varient, and that makes a far better fighty type, if you so chose. But me, I want the ability to deliver spells through my familiar, which can be very handy. JaronK
#9 reis May 12, 2008 3:15:16	is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken. Disagree, just because something is a good trade off, does not make it game breaking. also, do a search for "uttercold assault necromancer", that isn't a bad wizard-necro way to go
#10 clockworkrevenge May 12, 2008 3:47:42	No, it's not better than a familiar, and it's certainly worse than some other possible familiar tradeouts. Why do you think it's better than a familiar? Heck, you can apply Improved Familiar to a familiar and not to this varient, and that makes a far better fighty type, if you so chose. But me, I want the ability to deliver spells through my familiar, which can be very handy. JaronK In the games i play familliars are the first thing to get stomped into dust... so theyre pretty garbagy. Overall benefit is always better than specifics.
#11 brainpiercing May 12, 2008 6:16:55	No scaling with prestige classes makes the undead minion obsolete, IMHO. Also, it seems RAW you can't apply necromancy feats to it, so it'll be quite fragile pretty quickly, while other undead won't be. The scaling hitdice are quite worthless, because undead hitdice are really worth very little - without necromancy feats to boost HP and Str/Dex.
#12 phaedrusxy May 12, 2008 10:56:51	is it better than a familliar, which is what you lose for it? Oh it is? broken. Animate Dead at 1st level is about 4x more powerful than this stupid variant. The only real advantage this has over a familiar is there is no penalty when it gets destroyed. Your animated undead can do anything this thing can do. Familiars have tons more advantages than these things. Just because your DM hates familiars and kills yours ASAP doesn't mean they are mechanically crappy, per the rules and everyone else's games. I do think that the penalties for losing a familiar are way too extreme, and house rule them away, but if you're careful with them and your DM isn't a douche, then they can be quite useful even with the penalties.
#13 alastar May 12, 2008 11:04:33	Yup, and also, a familiar can cast spells for you, gives you +2 to all your skills, +2 to attack rolls, and can use wands if your a bit imaginative. and lets not even talk about getting some feats for it, like dragon familiar, wich allows you to basically entangle every ennemy, for free, every round, throught your familiar. Yeah, familiars are broken, not undead minion
#14 sinfire_titan May 12, 2008 11:08:26	In the games i play familliars are the first thing to get stomped into dust... so theyre pretty garbagy. Overall benefit is always better than specifics. Then you're not playing them right! Polymorph/Scouting is what the Familiar is meant for. Just look at Pun-Pun, his Familiar is bad-ass. Also, doubling your actions/round via UMD+Imbue Familiar with SLA is damn good.
#15 sinfire_titan May 12, 2008 11:09:24	Animate Dead at 1st level is about 4x more powerful than this stupid variant. The only real advantage this has over a familiar is there is no penalty when it gets destroyed. Your animated undead can do anything this thing can do. Familiars have tons more advantages than these things. Just because your DM hates familiars and kills yours ASAP doesn't mean they are mechanically crappy, per the rules and everyone else's games. I do think that the penalties for losing a familiar are way too extreme, and house rule them away, but if you're careful with them and your DM isn't a douche, then they can be quite useful even with the penalties. Every see an Imp with Craft (Basketweaving)?
#16 loganic1 May 12, 2008 12:05:25	How rich is your character? What level is your character? I don't think this is practical, but if you could convince your DM to give you a single free item, get yourself a rod of defiance. Rod of Defiance: -4 Turn Resistance to all undead within 30 ft. of the wielder. Also functions as a +2 mace. 13k Lyre of the Restful Soul: -4 Turn Resistance to all undead within 60 ft. for 10 rounds. Requires a DC 15 perform check. Only 3k! If you could get a RoD, you could control a 5HD creature for only an effective 1HD. At level 10, if you have both, you could control 10 9HD. Too bad that doesn't affect animate dead, only turn/rebuke Look at Complete Divine. There's several feats that let you give up a number of uses of Turn/Rebuke. I don't know if you could give up spell slots in which you prepare turn/rebuke. Also, I forget what the feat is called that lets you get a domain. If you're going to be animating, . . . well deathbound sounds good. Look at the revised necromancer's handbook