such spells as
Enervation
Ray of Enfeeblement
Energy Drain
The thing that makes these spells awesome is that they are ranged touch and don't allow saving throws for severely crippling and potentially lethal effects.
Then the thought came to mind, how cool would it be to play a Specialized necromancer who just didn't reanimate corpses and play with undead.
Any thoughts on the best way to do this?/if it's worth it?
A twin, maximized, split-ray, repeated Enervation will give someone a LOT of negative levels, and more the round after if they survive (I believe it's 16 negative levels twice? haven't checked the math...).
Necromancy has a lot of other nice debuffs such as the rays you already mentioned, not to mention the utter cheese of Shivering Touch.
However, Repeat only works that way, if the target hasn't moved.
Not to mention outside core effects like Avasculate.
However, Repeat only works that way, if the target hasn't moved.
Ah right, I didn't read up on the feat too closely. Personally I prefer the Shivering Touch combos rather than Enervation.
Average mid-level combat goes;
Swift Assay Spell Resistance
Ray of Clumsiness (preferably maximized to 11 dex damage)
Walk next to the now very-low-dex Big Bad.
Let them try and do something you can interrupt with...
Immediate Celerity
Shivering Touch (maximize for 18 dex damage)
Anything with more than 29 dex can survive this, but you should be keen enough to be able to spot critters that dexterous! (and as a wizard you should have wicked knowledge rolls for that kind of thing...).
That being said, massive negative level attacks are also good
*edit - I am a big fan of Recaster, which among other tricks will let you maximize 5/day for free, and turn your touch spells into 30ft rays 3/day. Makes this kind of combo much easier to pull off.
Maybe we could come up with some builds?
Any 3.5 book is legal
Any 3.0 that wasn't updated to 3.5 is legal
Also, I don't use Action points or Dragon Magazine
I hate Tome of Battle, Psionics, and any way too cheesy builds (like, ur-priest and such is fine, but infinite anything is unacceptable)
Although a MM Sorcerer could run a Command Undead minion-stealing gig.
If you're planning on spamming Rays, you might be better off as a sorcerer. Or you might try a Focused Specialist, but it will be hard choosing 3 schools to drop.
Feats:
1) Snowcasting, Eschew Materials, Scribe Scroll
3) Draconic Aura (Energy: Cold)
5) Spell Focus (Necromancy)
6) Cold Focus
9) Greater Cold Focus
12) Heroic Spirit
13) Action Surge
15) Improved Draconic Aura
18) Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
We use the Planar Substitution at Wiz 10 to make all of our spells [Evil].
Combined with icemail armor, you're looking at +10 to all of your save DCs, or +12 for your Necromancy spells. You can spend an action point to increase those by +4 if you need to. With unfettered heroism giving us 1 action point per round, we can do that all day.
Shivering Touch
This. A thousand times this.
I actually like this thread's basic concept. I'm playing a necromancer right now, and while I do plan on animating things eventually, I've learned there's not much optimization you can do before the game for undead animation. It's entirely dependent on what corpses you get access to. A necromancer built around energy drain and ability damage would still be able to competently raise minions, but even in the absence of corpses can still be useful - with the added bonus of being able to min/max the character's focus pregame rather than frantically looking for corpses everywhere, and wondering when you should start resorting to dirty tricks. (Statue + Stone to Flesh, Planar Binding)
Also, can you apply Fell drain to a spell that doesn't inherently do damage, if you figure out a way to make that spell do damage?
For Example:
Enervation doesn't do damage
Black lore of moil adds 3d6 damage to enervation (for 75 gold)
Could I apply Fell Drain to a Moilian Enervation?
Can a sorcerer (without using metamagic, though I doubt I wouldn't) use lower level spells in higher level slots?
Example:
Enervation is a 4th level spell
Could I cast it as a 5th level spell?
Holy crap Shivering touch is broken. What happens when a character has no dexterity?
Also, can you apply Fell drain to a spell that doesn't inherently do damage, if you figure out a way to make that spell do damage?
For Example:
Enervation doesn't do damage
Black lore of moil adds 3d6 damage to enervation (for 75 gold)
Could I apply Fell Drain to a Moilian Enervation?
Can a sorcerer (without using metamagic, though I doubt I wouldn't) use lower level spells in higher level slots?
Example:
Enervation is a 4th level spell
Could I cast it as a 5th level spell?
RAW is silent on this topic. My vote is yes, as a Wizard can prepare a 4th level spell in a 5th level slot.
My favorite tactic is an Empowered Maximized Split Ray Enervation. 8+2d4 Negative Levels. My build for this used a Cleric, however, gaining Enervation though the alternate class features, using a Legacy Item and Divine Metamagic to negate any increased spell slot costs.
1. Sorcerer (Metamagic Specialist) Spell focus(Necromancy)
2. Sorcerer
3. Sorcerer Shadow Weave Magic
4. Sorcerer
5. Sorcerer
6. Sorcerer Empower Spell
7. Magical Trickster
8. Magical Trickster Twin Spell
9. Magical Trickster Arcane Thesis (Enervation)
10. Shadow Adept
11. Shadow Adept
12. Shadow Adept Metamagic School focus (Necromancy)
13. Arcane Devotee
14. Shadow Adept
15. Shadow Adept Maximize Spell, Greater Spell focus (Necromancy)
16. Shadow Adept
17. Archmage (Arcane Reach)
18. Shadow Adept Arcane Thesis (Horrid Wilting)
19. Shadow Adept
20. Shadow Adept
Total Base Saves(+3 on Necro/Illus/Enchant)
F. 6
R. 6
W. 18
Total of +5 to Necro DC's (before charisma), not bad at all.
Probably go human (just to make skill progress easier)
If I do, Move all feats down one step (except horrid wilting) and put Split ray on top
Any thoughts?
Edit: I just realized, this puts my BAB at a crappy +9...which isn't THAT bad for touch attacks, but still im gunna need a hell of a Dex score.
Holy crap Shivering touch is broken. What happens when a character has no dexterity?
Reducing dex to 0 paralyzes the target. It's basically a save-or-die effect. Note that Ray of Clumsiness is a good setup for the attack, and if they don't go to dex 0 you can followup with Lesser Shivering Touch, or a Tanglefoot Bag (or Rod of Viscid Gobs) ;)
It's basically a save-or-die effect.
Yeah, except that shivering touch has no save.
Yeah, except that shivering touch has no save.
Correct, though you do have to hit with the touch attack and sometimes overcome SR. Good to note this spell will kill any kind of regular dragon since they all have a weak dex score regardless of age ;)
And agreed. ST is broken, broken, broken. Sensible DM's slap you when they hear you even considered taking it.
RAW is silent on this topic. My vote is yes, as a Wizard can prepare a 4th level spell in a 5th level slot.
RAW is not silent. You can do it.
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.
from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSlots
Race Silverbrown Human
Cleric 1/Sorcerer 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 10/X 3
Feats
1 Eschew Materials
1 Snowcasting (human)
1 Quicken Turning(flaw)
1 Cold Focus(flaw)
3 Greater Cold Focus
6 Flash Frost Spell
9 Rapid Metamagic
12 Holy Potency
15 Draconic Aura Cold
18 Practical Metamagic Chain Spell
Incantatrix 1 Energy Substitution Cold
Incantatrix 4 Lord of the Uttercold
Incantatrix 7 Chain Spell
Incantatrix 10 Quicken Spell
Otulgyh Hole Iron Will
*Snowcasting+Eschew Materials make all your spells have the cold subtype
*Since you have the cold subtype for all your spells flash frost spell makes all your cold spells do cold damage if you so decree
*Lord of the Uttercold makes have the hit point damage negative energy damage (and all offensive spells can do negative energy damage thanks to flash frost spell)
*If a spell does negative energy damage and you use a turn attempt the previous round (You always go first due to celerity combine with foresight), then you add your cha modifer to the save of the spell
So in sum the save of a chained save or die is this
10+
Spell Level (8 due to you using Chained which is +3 which is -1 due to incantatrix and -1 due to Practical Metamagic)
+2 (greater cold focus)
+2 Icemail Armor
+4 draconic aura cold
+Cha (assuming 34 cha this is 12)
+Cha (12)
=A save of 50 for the main target and each secondary target getting a save of 46.
The trick first appeared here
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1010928
Im sorry, I forgot to mention I don't use action points. will edit my above post to reflect that
In that case, take Shadow Weave Magic in place of Heroic Spirit and go into Shadow Adept. Your base DCs for Necromancy spells climbs to +13. Since you don't have to take Improved Draconic Aura, take Malign Spell Focus instead for a +2 to all of your [Evil] spells, which is every spell you cast, giving you a final bonus of +15 for all of your Necromancy spells. If you can shoehorn another feat in there, Spell Focus [Evil] will raise that to +16.
You can actually combine Spell Focus [Evil] and Malign Spell Focus with the Heir of Siberys build for +15/+19 to save DCs, if you can snag some bonus feats along the way (Human Paragon springs to mind, although that loses another CL).
I don't have my books on me, but isn't Ray of Clumsiness just a penalty? If so, then it would only stack with shivering touch up to a total dex of 1. Otherwise, Shivering touch would need to be used on its own.
Ray of Clumsiness cannot reduce the target below 0 dex, but if I read it correctly it can be used to soften up their dex prior to Shivering Touch, so the target is more easily hit and paralyzed.
Lesser Shivering Touch is also useful but I find the ray better since, you know, it's a ray instead of touch ;)
Also, I believe the dex penalty from Tanglefoot Bags or Rod of Viscid Gobs is untyped so it should stack (and can reduce the target to 0 or lower dex).
Admittedly I haven't double-checked all the relevant rules so if I'm incorrect about anything someone please let me know :D