Tempest's flip the bird or a more classical swift hunter (something like scout 4/ranger 6, warblade 1/ Highland stalker 9).
My advice is to test whatever character concept you go with and make sure it's not standing out as particularly retarded when compared to the rest of your team. If you feel like you're soloing encounters and they don't feel like they're participating at all then odds are nobody's having fun.
Ranger 11/Highland Stalker 5/Fighter 4. How was that?
Re: Samurai, I'd rather have a Warblade or Crusader in a Test of Wills.
The main reason I'd agree with Draco here, though, isn't that the samurai sucks so hard: it's that Song of the White Raven exists. With that you get warrior and bard at the same time. (Also, martial adepts can get by in battle with just their maneuvers, so you can afford to invest feats making Inspire Courage awesome. Resultingly, the rest of a warrior-heavy party like this will excel - or at least suck less). You don't get that kind of synergy with samurai (although haunting melody or related feats might be worth investigating there).
Duskblade 5 (PHB2)/Abjurant Champion 1(Complete Mage)/Arcane Archer 2(SRD)/Abjurant Champion +4/Arcane Archer +8
Feat Selection Goes like this (Level 6 and lower are locked in, 9 and up are flexible, especially 15 and 18 which I'm not all that impressed with myself.)
1) Point Blank Shot (SRD)
2) Combat Casting (SRD, *Duskblade Bonus Feat)
3) Precise Shot (SRD)
6) Weapon Focus Longbow (SRD)
9) Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild)
12) Rapid Shot (SRD)
15) Manyshot (SRD)
18) Improved Rapid Shot (SRD)
The best part of the build is the economy on arrows, you can forever more just use mundane arrows and a +1 Bow (with tons of special abilities). For bow abilities look into Splitting (Champions of Ruin), Colission (SRD), Aptitude (Tome of Battle). Splitting makes each of your attacks fire two arrows (+3), colission adds 5 damage per shot (+2), and Aptitude +1 to hit and Damage (+1). Ghost Touch (SRD +1) and a few others over time wouldn't go amis.
Inspiration struck. I'm trying to make something that's bad be not so bad. This is what I've got.
Duskblade 5 (PHB2)/Abjurant Champion 1(Complete Mage)/Arcane Archer 2(SRD)/Abjurant Champion +4/Arcane Archer +8
...
Many people around here crucify the Arcane Archer although I believe if you allowed its enhanced arrows to stack with magic bow (like they did in 3.0) it becomes a bit more appealing without letting it upgrade spellcasting which some people believe needs to be done. Despite this I'm not a big fan of this build.
Duskblade really isn't a class you'd take into Abjurant Champion and I don't see why that build is any better then the much simpler Duskblade10/AA10. Most people only see the AA's 2nd-level ability, Imbue Arrow, as having any value and while they have a point (I pool all the other "trick shots" together to be used interchangably) the BEST way to use that it entering AA from BattleSorcerer. It does cost a character a couple precious points of BAB but getting a 20th-level build of BS7/AbC5/AA8 gets you a +18 BAB and 12th-level BattleSorcerer spellcasting. While the spells you select may go into Imbuing arrows it is also very nice to throw out a Shield Spell for +9 AC as a swift action and cast a lot of other Abjuration spells without stopping to do so. Moving into Epic I really want to get to AA 11 as that means you get to shoot +6 arrows which overcome DR/epic with relative ease; advancing your spellcasting couldn't hurt much either.
Edit: Noting that Duskblade2 gets Combat Casting as a bonus feat (need for entry in AbC) I could see cutting down to BS4/DB2 to enter AbC which gets another level of AA and increases BAB but cuts down on spellcasting.
I must, at least partially, disagree with AR on the whole "fitting in" thing. Quite simply, a party built like that will be steamrolled by level-appropriate challenges. Playing a god wizard allows you to prevent this while making everyone else feel useful, keeping the game enjoyable.
Normally I would concur about the steamrolling, but it's also likely that the DM would adjust the game to fit his players. If this is the case, the social aspect of the game is more important than the mechanical, so fitting in mechanically would be more important. (While I don't want the party to get steamrolled, I think a bigger risk is having one member of the party steamroll the rest of the team - which is basically what happens with any halfway-decent god wizard in a warrior party like that. It's not an ideal solution, but it's easier to adjust for a uniformly poor party than a party where one member is god and the rest are minions.)
Ok I'm a little lost. So the frist few buipds (all on the first page) were to weak or to op for this party? And arr archers really that weak? I'd role a mage but the party had me be mage for 2 sessions now and i love them to death because they can be really powerfull to the point where it isn't fair, i just wanted a new ranged approach and have been wanting to play a archer for a bit. I really liked swift hunter and flip the bird for the purposes of uniqueness.
Archers aren't terribly weak, so to speak - it's just that there isn't as much for synergy or diversity with them as there is with melee, and warriors in general tend to fall behind mages, especially as levels increase. (This is why, I think, Flip the Bird excited people here - it's an attempt to do something different with archery. Although yes, the build is very complicated to play: you need to be intimately familiar with AoO mechanics and the AoO metagame to pull it off (although I'd note that the "urban" fluff from it can easily be removed: Don't use any of the Cityscape alternate features, and it snaps right back to a wilderness archer). A simpler build from the showcase (the Heavy Weapons Elf) is much easier to play and still gets some of the same novelty - and it's an elf to boot.)
Draco's cleric + Zen Archery suggestion is a good, simple starting point; elf clerics even get access to the best cleric-archer domains. I'd suggest reading this quickstart guide for tips.
I've never really liked cragtop archers - like several odd archetypes (and even some not-so-odd ones, like stealthy thieves), when they shine, the rest of the party doesn't, and when the whole team works with them, they can't use their main strengths. (Clarification: Think of the sneaky rogue in the traditional "fighter/cleric/thief/mage" team. No one else can sneak, so if stealth's required, it becomes a one-man game, and if it's a four-man game, then the rogue can't sneak. Same idea with the cragtop archer's insane range abilities.)
Swift Hunters are good archers as well, largely because they can keep the attack bonus up there and penetrate fortification effects on difficult favored enemies. Their problem is short range (this is why Flip the Bird has sorcerer levels and a Ring of Wizardry - almost entirely for Sniper's Shot) - which is why they work best with a good fighter-type on the team (fighter-types work best when they're drawing enemy attention to themselves and preventing enemy movement), but it's still a weakness.
...I had planned on offering this up as a showcase eventually, but it likely won't show up because it's so simple. Here's a pretty basic swift hunter that's designed to switch between melee and range as necessary, using the melee ability as a way to cover for the situations where the short range works against you and your fighter isn't doing is job.
Half-Men in Tights
Race: Strongheart Halfling.
11/17/14/11/12/8 to start (after racial mods); boost Dexterity all the time.
Weapon: Elvencraft shortbow from Races of the Wild (this is a masterwork shortbow that can freely be used as a club - notably, a club is a light weapon.).
To make this work with elf, delete Weapon Finesse (it isn't necessary) and shift Precise Shot to 3. You get slightly higher Strength but slightly lower Constitution.
Finishes with +19 base attack and extra attack feats, 7d6/+7 skirmish and four favored enemies (which are all affected by skirmish regardless of fortification), and ranger CL 12 (grab a staff with Hunter's Eye on it - one of the best ranger spells you'll find. This adds +4d6 sneak attack with that CL.) Note the "favored organization" rules might allow you to hit a larger variety of enemies.
It's not a high-grade Swift Hunter, since it relies on the older "move and Greater Manyshot" style of Skirmishing rather than any of the swift-action movement effects, but it does touch all the usual Swift Hunter bases, and it's reasonably simple to play.
Race: Strongheart Halfling.
11/17/14/11/12/8 to start (after racial mods); boost Dexterity all the time.
Weapon: Elvencraft shortbow from Races of the Wild (this is a masterwork shortbow that can freely be used as a club - notably, a club is a light weapon.).
To make this work with elf, delete Weapon Finesse (it isn't necessary) and shift Precise Shot to 3. You get slightly higher Strength but slightly lower Constitution.
1 Scout Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Ranger
3 Ranger Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse
4 Scout
5 Ranger
6 Ranger Distracting Attack* Swift Hunter
7 Scout Dungeon Specialist*
8 Ranger
9 Ranger Manyshot, Greater Manyshot
10 Scout Improved Skirmish
11 Ranger
12 Ranger Leadership**
13 Ranger
14 Ranger Improved Precise Shot
15 Ranger Practiced Spellcaster
16 Ranger
17 Ranger
18 Ranger FEAT***
19 Ranger
20 Ranger
*Alternate class feature, either from PHB2 or Dungeonscape. Distracting Shot replaces animal companion and causes each target you shoot to be treated as flanked by you for a round, no matter where you actually are (works great for your rogue teammate and indirectly for your fighter). Dungeon Specialist has a few goodies, most notably an innate climb speed. (You've said you're mostly outdoors, though, so this is an optional swap.)
**Leadership is in the build because I viewed this as a halfling styled after Robin Hood (hence the build name), and the feat gives justification for the merry half-men. The best non-caster cohort is probably a sneak-attack / tank character (i.e. Nightsong Enforcer or Spiked Chain Daring Outlaw): lock down the enemy from hitting the leader, and capitalize on Distracting Attack. Leadership is a problematic feat if used to its utmost, so this is optional and can be swapped.
***At this point the free feat is up for grabs; I didn't have a lot of good ideas for it. I would have used Woodland Archer, were it not for the Greater Manyshot focus.
Finishes with +19 base attack and extra attack feats, 7d6/+7 skirmish and four favored enemies (which are all affected by skirmish regardless of fortification), and ranger CL 12 (grab a staff with Hunter's Eye on it - one of the best ranger spells you'll find. This adds +4d6 sneak attack with that CL.) Note the "favored organization" rules might allow you to hit a larger variety of enemies.
It's not a high-grade Swift Hunter, since it relies on the older "move and Greater Manyshot" style of Skirmishing rather than any of the swift-action movement effects, but it does touch all the usual Swift Hunter bases, and it's reasonably simple to play.
Ok I'm a little lost. So the frist few buipds (all on the first page) were to weak or to op for this party? And arr archers really that weak? I'd role a mage but the party had me be mage for 2 sessions now and i love them to death because they can be really powerfull to the point where it isn't fair, i just wanted a new ranged approach and have been wanting to play a archer for a bit. I really liked swift hunter and flip the bird for the purposes of uniqueness.
A big reason Arcane Archer is considered "weak" is because (as some say) the Greater Magic Weapon spell gives you the AA's basic ability of enhancing arrows. I'll also say that because it has a spellcasting entry requirement and an ability that works with spellcasting some people start to think that the AA is a "spellcasting class" but complain loudly that it doesn't do anything to actually advance spellcasting. I can't argue the last point which is based on opinion but when it comes to Greater Magic Weapon making the class void I like to point out how some kind of Dispel Magic ends that comparison. AA suffered in 3.5 as it was directly ported from 3.0 without getting any of the changes it could have used to make it a little more versatile but it also got kicked hard by the rule change that didn't allow the enhancement from a magic bow and magic arrows to stack.
AA suffered in 3.5 as it was directly ported from 3.0 without getting any of the changes it could have used to make it a little more versatile but it also got kicked hard by the rule change that didn't allow the enhancement from a magic bow and magic arrows to stack.
All that said (largely undisputed, I'll add), the Pathfinder Arcane Archer is much better and doesn't show too much late-3.5 design mentality (i.e. setting aside PF-specific changes (class skills, saving throw progressions, etc.), apart from the soulbow-style reconfiguring, that class could easily have existed in the 3.5 DMG).
I have my own take on it, which I might share someday.
AA suffered in 3.5 as it was directly ported from 3.0 without getting any of the changes it could have used to make it a little more versatile but it also got kicked hard by the rule change that didn't allow the enhancement from a magic bow and magic arrows to stack.
All that said (largely undisputed, I'll add), the Pathfinder Arcane Archer is much better and doesn't show too much late-3.5 design mentality (i.e. setting aside PF-specific changes (class skills, saving throw progressions, etc.), apart from the soulbow-style reconfiguring, that class could easily have existed in the 3.5 DMG).
I have my own take on it, which I might share someday.
Looking at the Pathfinder AA I'm not impressed. It basically switches the Enhancements a 3.5 AA would put on a bow with those gained by the class (3.5 arrows get +X, in Path bow would be used for +X; switch things around for special abilities.) I do like what it does with some of the "trick" shots but I have a take on them. I see they give Arrow of Death a better save (which it may need) but I prefer to set it at 15+half AA level + mod from casting stat used to enter the class. What I DON'T like is the pure power gain by caving to the "the AA MUST HAVE SPELLCASTING INCREASES" which just makes it another class a spellcasting gish can consider. All of this is of course viewed through 3.5 eyes.
Splitting alone is considered probably the BEST damage enhancement in the game. (Double damage for +3? Compare to Speed at +5 which is +1 attack on a full attack action!)
In terms of power and versatility, the best build is going to be a cleric zen archer exploiting persistent spell and zen archery for Wis instead of Str to damage. Get the trifecta of divine power, divine favor, and divine might, and you're as good as most fighters will ever be. Persistent spell, zen archery, and on top of beign able to shoot a bow like a MF, you have full clerical casting ability.
CoDzilla, off to the races.
==Aelryinth