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| #1Smite_Thy_Enemiesof_MetalAug 26, 2011 21:52:42 | EDIT: Made the formatting a lot neater. Sorry for those who saw it the way it was b4. I didn't realize it was that painful to the eyes. lol. Alas, its nicer now. Hey, sup everyone! There will be a new 3.5 game starting on Thursday. I initially wanted to try playing a Goliath Dungeoncrasher build but every one in my player group voted against it. They claimed it would be too broken and would be able to solo encounters. They told me to play a "tamer" build =P. So I threw this one together at the meeting and it actually passed 'Judgment.' Two people denied it, but majority still said it was ok. So here is the new idea I want to run with: CAMPAIGN RESTRICTIONS: 1) Tome of Battle cannot be used 2) Psionics cannot be used 3) Weapon Crystals cannot be used. 4) Tome of Magic cannot be used. 5) Players cannot put wounding on their weapons. 6) Knowledge (Religion) doesn't exist. 7) No Flaws or Traits HOUSE RULES: (FIST PUMP!! ..... j/k) 1) Starting stats: Each player can use a +9 modifier to customize their stats as they want. No stat can be higher than 18 or lower than 8 (before racial bonus). 2) Land speed enhancements via classes and items stack 3) Any other 3.5 book can be used. 4) Optimization is ok as long as every one in the group can still have fun and be important. The build is a good mix of offensive and defensive. There were a suprisingly high amount of synergies within it. Dervish gets a high ref and will, fighter and tempest get high forts, and scout gets high reflex. Battle fortitude is a nifty free boost. So the saves end up beinge average -> good. The skirmish damage synergizes well with the dervish dance. The slashing damage from the dance works well with the fighter weapon feats. The preq feats I needed are pretty defensive giving a good balance of offense and defense options. The hits would be pretty consistant considering STR is my main stat and I only lose 1 BAB. (2 if you include the level adj). And with my primary stat as strength, and a high crit rate, the damage output would be pretty nice. High dex, dodge, expertise, dervish AC bonus, mobility all aid my survivability. The tempest is kind of a filler class that fit the concept perfectly. Extra AC and I lower my 2 weapon fighting penalties. I believe (and I could be wrong), that with Spring Attack and dervish dance I could strike multiple targets on the field as long as I have enough movement space left and not stopped. It gets a decent skill allotment and some pretty cool skill tricks to make sure I'm rarely "restrained." Keeping my tumble skill high helps my mobility . Tiefling is there for flavor (always wanted to play one) and helping boost my dex to qualify for the two weapon fighting feats and a chain shirt. I think it's a pretty solid character, but I know there will ALWAYS be something out there to make it better. And there are SOO many great character builders out there, so I will definetly learn something new. So, overall I would like to read some suggestions on how to improve it or if I should alter any of my feats, skills, skill tricks, classes. And like always, lay down your input! I thank you all in advanced! Later! Name: ???? Race: Tiefling Class: Scout 3/ Fighter 4/ Dervish 10 / Tempest 2 ECL: 20 Starting Stats: Str: 18 Wis: 10 Dex: 18 Int: 13 Con: 15 Cha: 8 Stat Ups: +4 Strength +1 Dexterity Class Progression ECL 2: Scout ECL 3: Fighter ECL 4: Fighter ECL 5: Scout ECL 6: Scout ECL 7: Fighter ECL 8: Fighter ECL 9: Dervish ECL 10: Dervish ECL 11: Dervish ECL 12: Dervish ECL 13: Dervish ECL 14: Tempest ECL 15: Tempest ECL 16: Dervish ECL 17: Dervish ECL 18: Dervish ECL 19: Dervish ECL 20: Dervish Feats: Two Weapon Fighting Weapon Focus (Scimitar) Dodge Combat Expertise Mobility Weapon Specialization (Scimitar) Improved Two Weapon Fighting Spring Attack Improved Critical (Scimitar) Greater Two Weapon Fighting Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) Skill Ranks: Listen: 7 Spot: 7 Survival: 5 Tumble: 20 Perform (Dance): 18 Escape Artist: 15 Hide: 9 Move Silently: 5 Knowledge (Geography): 6 Balance: 4 Skill Tricks: Nimble Stand Back on your Feet Quick Escape Gear to go for: +2 Defending ??? Scimitar +2 Defending ??? Scimitar Boots of Striding and Sprinting Bracers of Blinding Strike Third Eye of Freedom Gloves of Agile Striking Gloves of the Balanced hand (until I get the imp 2 weapon fighting feat) Ring of Protection +... OR Ring of Avoidance Cloak of Displacement, Minor Cloak of Displacement, Major (Upgraded eventually from minor) Vest of Resistance +... Amulet of Constitution +... Ring of Natural Armor +... Belt of Battle (Dervish Dance + Thousand Cuts -> Belt of Battle -> Dervish Dance) |
| #2Tempest_StormwindAug 26, 2011 23:04:48 | Hey, sup everyone! There will be a new 3.5 game starting on Thursday. I initially wanted to try playing a Goliath Dungeoncrasher build but every one in my player group voted against it. They claimed it would be too broken and would be able to solo encounters. They told me to play a "tamer" build =P. Then, sorry, your team doesn't know what the hell it's talking about. I basically designed the build I think you were using, and it's far from soloable. It just does exactly what melee is supposed to do - control the battlefield (i.e. focus attention on itself) and dish out damage (to punish people for not focusing on him). It still has all the usual weaknesses of these things - most notably its Will save and its mobility. A single Sleep spell will kill you. A flying enemy will screw you over. You can rely upon equipment to solve this sort of thing, but so can anyone else, and the mages aren't going to need items to "shore up" weaknesses, because their own class features (spells) remove those weaknesses as just a small fraction of what they can do. So I threw this one together at the meeting and it actually passed 'Judgment.' Two people denied it, but majority still said it was ok. So here is the new idea I want to run with: I stand by my "not knowing what it's talking about" verdict. This pattern of banning has all the hallmarks of someone who isn't used to seeing mages do anything except cast Fireball. (Notice how it's a group that vetos other builds as being too strong, and then passes restrictions that almost entirely are targeted at melee while leaving the most broken spellcasting in the game - that in the Players' Handbook - untouched?) Simplest solution: either a Shadowcraft Mage or your typical Druid 20 will basically grab these restrictions, arrange them neatly on the table, fold them into an origami swan, and then polymorph the swan into a Dire Man-Eating Swan of Legend before slapping some sense into the table. Of course, doing so would be a dickish move, but sometimes, you need to be a dick to get a point across. Still, that's not what you wanted to play. So we'll work within the restrictions and give you some suggestions. The build is a good mix of offensive and defensive. There were a suprisingly high amount of synergies within it. Dervish gets a high ref and will, fighter and tempest get high forts, and scout gets high reflex. Battle fortitude is a nifty free boost. So the saves end up beinge average -> good. The skirmish damage synergizes well with the dervish dance. The slashing damage from the dance works well with the fighter weapon feats. The preq feats I needed are pretty defensive giving a good balance of offense and defense options. The hits would be pretty consistant considering STR is my main stat and I only lose 1 BAB. (2 if you include the level adj). And with my primary stat as strength, and a high crit rate, the damage output would be pretty nice. From what I see, it's a pretty standard TWF dervish, which is solid but slow (because it's highly reliant upon its limited-uses-per-day dervish dance, and it takes forever to make all the attack rolls). It also tends to have a reasonable degree of MAD, but makes up for it with reasonable survivability for a fighter. (Although watch yourself: you're still will-vulnerable, and there are enough ways to penalize you for movement if the enemy's front line is even half awake. This tends to lead to an arms race that puts you on the side with the most to lose. Be careful.) WIth an 18 Strength, though, you should definitely consider the two-handed dervish approach as an alternative. You can reduce your Dexterity accordingly (and pump it into Constitution, which as a frontliner with a level adjustment, you'll need), free up several feats for new stunts, and combine Power Attack with Dervish Dance to get some devastating results - probably far more devastating than you can get with dual scimitars, and you'll finish your turns much faster at the table. However, this is not in your concept, so consider it a footnote. Your format is nearly impossible to follow... but you actually have Spring Attack without Elusive Target? Read up on that feat (CW) and you'll immediately see why you want it in your build. It's especially amazing for you, due to your ability scores. Likewise, you can only learn one skill trick at each level up, and you do have a maximum limit (although I forget offhand what it is, so I don't know if you've hit it yet or not.) Regarding equipment, you're focusing too much on knick-nacks and wishlists without looking at the fundamentals. I'd highly suggest ditching Shocking and Corrosive. They don't synergize with the scimitar's biggest advantage - critical hits. You'd be better off doing something like Dessicating Burst (Magic Item Compendium), which on the surface appears to be targeted at specific creatures, but in a high-crit build, it amounts to turning you into a moving debuff. (Exhaustion means an easy -6 to Strength and disables enemy charging, which is alarmingly powerful, and the condition is reasonably hard to remove in the middle of battle. Plus, anything that wouldn't be affected by it is probably immune to crits anyway, which means you should leave it to your friends.) Anoter option is Collision (it's in the XPH (and SRD), but it isn't psionic and is available magically); it's a +2 enhancement that grants a flat +5 damage. Since it's flat damage, it multiplies on a critical hit. Also, to answer your question, Spring Attack is actually useless during a Dervish Dance, since the dance lets you move, attack, and move again (and attack again, etc). Spring Attack just lets you keep the style going without using up your precious Dances. For more information in general, I direct you to the Dervish Handbook. Hope that helps. |
| #3Smite_Thy_Enemiesof_MetalAug 27, 2011 2:08:19 | Thank you again for your insight. Much appreciated! Yea, you were the one that helped me make a dungeoncrasher. Trust me, I get pissed at my group too when they swing the nerf bat. You made some great arguments on how its nearly impossible to solo an encounter. I think you hit the nail in the coffin when you said "They aren't used to seeing mages do anything but cast fireball." But, its hopeless to try and explain it to them. They just shrug it off as being "broken" without shedding any evidence on how it is. I think they just assume that builds that use multiple classes, PrC, and class swaps are OP. But, as much as I hate my groups' attitude on these things, they have been my friends for six years. So, I abide their dumb rules and restrictions despite how much it pisses me the hell off. On a pretty silly sidenote, the DM always says in a sad, depressed voice"What happened to dwarf fighters and half-orc barbarians and gnome sorcerers?" I looked into the Dessicating Burst. The book says it only makes the enemy fatigued, not exhausted. Are fatigue effects Cumulative? Or am I missing something? And yea, the two-handed idea looks a lot better mechanically, but I'll stick with the TWF route. It's fits the theme of the character and if I change the build direction, the group might start whining again. lol And yes, elusive target is SICK. I'm definetly gonna try to fit that in. Oh, and I fixed my formatting. It looks a lot neater now. Anyways, I'm out! Peace dude! |
| #4KruskAug 27, 2011 7:40:51 | If your group banned dungeoncrasher, I don't see them letting a dervish in either. Once they see you make your 8th attack roll in a round, I see you getting funny looks. Come 15 they will ask you reroll. I recomend something relatively simple and straight forward. Ubercharger (But maybe only power attack for like 5 or so on each attack), a spiked chain fighter who doesn't use robilars gambit or any of the other AoO chains and focuses on trips. Stuff like that. I find archers rarely get banned, no matter how optimized they are. They can be decent. |
| #5Tempest_StormwindAug 27, 2011 11:30:57 | Thank you again for your insight. Much appreciated! Funny you should mention it. That shadowcraft mage I linked above? Gnome sorcerer (well, any arcane caster, really - they work wonderfully with Illusionist, which was the gnome favored class in 3e). Likewise, the Druid is so powerful on its own that you really don't need multiclassing. This quote is rather apropos. It's from a table-mate of mine, and the term it describes has become common lexicon. It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. I looked into the Dessicating Burst. The book says it only makes the enemy fatigued, not exhausted. Are fatigue effects Cumulative? Or am I missing something? Yes. (Second-last sentence.) It's also far better than I recall since it's -6 Strength and -6 Dexterity. Not only do you hose chargers (by cutting off their charging) and regular melee warriors, you also hose TWFers (they may very well lose their feats), AoO tanks (Combat Reflexes), and any archers or spellcasters you come by. In fact, you may not only Exhaust them, but the loss of Strength might make their equipment heavy enough to encumber them. (So in other words, converting the wizard (if you can hit him; spellcasters are that good) to a pack mule, or shutting off any movement-based class' abilities). Generally speaking in D&D, the single most powerful resource is available actions. If you can't grant yourself extra actions or deny your opponents theirs, it is a good idea to instead dictate what those actions can and cannot be used for. That's why AoO tanks are so powerful. Here, with exhaustion, you're basically doing something very similar - but doing it in a way that synergizes with your zillion attacks and high critical hit range. And yea, the two-handed idea looks a lot better mechanically, but I'll stick with the TWF route. It's fits the theme of the character and if I change the build direction, the group might start whining again. lol Is there anything they won't whine about? I'm seriously wondering now. But yes, read through the Dervish Handbook I linked. You'll find a lot of information there. |