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Need advice for support character

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
maddcow2k
Apr 27, 2009 3:14:05 I'm currently going to be playing a new campaign as a Dragon Wraught Kobold. I've been out of touch with D&D 3.5 rules for a while and am first looking for help to decide what class i would like to play as. Hopefully there will be a core group of 4-6 players, my wife being one of them, and while I'm not too sure what everyone else is going to play, I want to play more of a support class as I am almost universally the main melee damage dealer. I also min/max a lot and it's painfully obvious once we get going in the campaign a ways.

I'm thinking of choosing either a cleric, a druid, or a wizard. My GM is allowing all books and I'm leaning more towards the druid as it sounds like something I would prefer to play as. I'm not looking for super cheese builds, though it's way too hard to not try to min/max for myself. Hence I want to try a support class that has min/max abilities/capabilities. That way, even if I am super cheese, I'm not completely obvious about it since I'm buffing/supporting my team, and not trying to be the one man army. Of course, the occasional wildshape changing Legendary Ape or Dire Polar Bear always sounds like having fun if I just want to role-play my druid going postal.

Right now I'm looking for which class to play and would like to hear what everyone has to say about which of those 3 core classes is a good support class. (Like I said, I'm leaning towards druid because it seems very support friendly, and has lots of utility when it comes to shapechanging/wildshape etc...) I'm most likely going to be venerable if that makes a difference. An old, but wise/smart Dragon Wraught Kobold. Your advice is most welcome. Thanks in advance!
#2
Senevri
Apr 27, 2009 6:12:10 Dragonwrought Kobold, Draconic Ritual of Passage, Draconic Reservoir, Greater Draconic Ritual of Passage. Sorcerer. Nice, but not cheese yet.

Old or older Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies for epic feats. THAT is cheese. although, many epic feats remain inaccessible, due to other prerequisites they have.
Also, they don't accrue aging penalties.
#3
pithica
Apr 27, 2009 8:52:19 All three of those classes can easily fill the God/Batman roles and/or the Martyr/Whatever roles, if built well. They are top tier classes, and any of them is going to be decent. If I had to pick between the three, I'd go wizard, then druid, then cleric, but that's based solely on personal preference, not on which is 'better' or whatever, all three rock.

However, I too recommend going sorcerer with a dragonwrought kobold. With the greater draconic rite of passage, you'll be getting new spell levels as quick as a wizard. In addition, you'll have access to all the cool sorcerer only spells (like Wings of Cover). And, if you pick your spells/feats right, you'll have a lot of versatility for support to fill in all the blanks around the way.
#4
thaliost
Apr 27, 2009 10:37:49 Woot!

Persuade your DM to let play an old-wyrm dragonwrought, then make an epic character :P
#5
sofawall
Apr 27, 2009 10:50:16 Sorcerer/War Weaver?
#6
maddcow2k
Apr 27, 2009 10:57:27 What are some of the spells that the Sorcerer can get that is either exclusive to the class, or that help the party? I didn't think about a Sorcerer either, so this is good. As for convincing to be an epic character to begin with, I wouldn't want to do that. The concept of the campaign is VERY similar to the web comic called Goblins! We are all going to start at 0 level and have to defend our village and the chest of valuables in plain sight from a group of low level PCs, and then we get fed up that we ourselves are going to adventure and level up to stop adventurers from tearing us a new one all the time.

I remember I played A sorcerer once, but I think it was either 2nd edition, or a version there of. I normally HATE caster classes, because they're retardedly good. I usually used to play a good solid Monk or Barb character, so I'm out of touch with casters ;) Thanks for the input so far though, I'm going to look up some Sorc info now and see what I can find.
#7
sofawall
Apr 27, 2009 11:16:57 Wings of Cover is a silly good sorcerer-only spell. Immediate action, block an attack. Charging Frenzied Berzerker w/o pounce? Wings of Cover!
#8
cru
Apr 27, 2009 11:20:49 Charging Frenzied Berzerker w/o pounce? WTF? It's like a sorcerer w/o Wings of Cover!
#9
jopustopin
Apr 27, 2009 11:24:21 Nothing wrong with min/maxing; if you want an easy melee character that is a support class, add a level of Dragon Shaman; fast healing 1 to all allies is very nice outside battle and during battle check it out.
#10
sofawall
Apr 27, 2009 11:24:22 Yeah, but when I thought of FB I was like "HAH! Wings of Cover!" but then I realized the FB would just hit me 4 more times...

Darn Ninjas...
#11
maddcow2k
Apr 27, 2009 11:59:09 I don't mind doing melee, a la Druid or Cleric, or polymorph or other similiar tools, but I would prefer to be more casterish so that I can take a step back and be the groups fail safe/buff bot. I want a couple of my friends, and more importantly my wife, to take up much of the lime/spot light. I want to be the one the immobilizes the enemy so that they can get sneak attacks, or silence the wizard so the melee can thump him, or put haste on everyone so they feel a lot more powerful than they really are. I'm all about the utility for the most part. I might have a few defensive/offensive spells, but mostly I'm there to make the rest of the group look good, and I can't think of many melee classes that would work well with this idea.

Edit: Hence while Sorc sounds enticing now that many have mentioned it, I'm partial to Cleric or Druid just because of healing abilities. I'm not too sure what everyone else is going to play, so I'm going in with the mindset of playing a Cleric/Druid if no one else is a solid healer, otherwise Sorc sounds like fun at this point. Everyone on this board has a lot of useful information which I am grateful for.
#12
sofawall
Apr 27, 2009 12:10:37 You do know you just described a God Wizard, right? Making the enemies weak and your guys strong?

I re-iterate my suggestion of War Weaver. Hit everyone with a bunch of buff spells as a move action? Yes, please!
#13
muertog
Apr 27, 2009 12:12:21 There are several ways to look at the casters-as-support.

Druids are not quite so much the party buffer as they are "wildshape-rawr!", thus become damage dealers. They have a few decent spells, but I personally feel their spells are not quite as good as the other options.

Wizards can do anything. Mid-way through the campaign, you need to fill a different role, easily done. Great for battlefield control, not quite as good for buffing the party.

Sorcs are more focused. Pick mostly spells you see yourself casting several times a day, otherwise their lack of flexibility is going to make you cry. Otherwise, very similar to wizards (same selections of spells) for being buff/debuffzard.

Clerics seem to be more party-buffer than the above options. Yes, you can make a combat monster with a cleric, but you can just as easily make the entire party combat monsters by using mass or legion's versions of their spells. DMM is cheese (and pretty stinky cheese at that), unless nightsticks are not available in the campaign.

Prestige classes alter this a bit. I keep hearing about this war weaver (haven't bothered to read it yet).

If you want a self-imposed challenge, take the BoED Vow of Peace (or was that Nonviolence). Only take spells that cannot cause damage. Flesh to Stone doesn't break those vows, right?
#14
sofawall
Apr 27, 2009 12:15:47 Read War Weaver. It makes Wizards the new buffers.
#15
dr_rocktopus
Apr 27, 2009 12:17:44 How convenient that I should genteelly appear, out of nowhere, with a sig full of advice on building a war weaver.
#16
maddcow2k
Apr 27, 2009 12:42:13
How convenient that I should genteelly appear, out of nowhere, with a sig full of advice on building a war weaver.

I've only heard of War Weaver being mentioned on the boards so I decided to check them out with your links. I think that the WW is almost exactly what I would like to be. Someone who is a big party support, but isn't exactly gimped if the case needs be. The tapestry buffing abilities sounds very cool. Anyone else have any experience or opinions about the WW?
#17
maddcow2k
Apr 27, 2009 13:07:18
How convenient that I should genteelly appear, out of nowhere, with a sig full of advice on building a war weaver.

Rock, I glanced through your links and builds and was wondering if you could help me come up with a good WW character that is intended to start at lvl 1 as a Kobold Dragon Wraught. A lot of builds have human as the race and thus I would be missing a feat, and some also have ridiculous amounts of PrC that make me feel that I would have to be a higher level to get the most bang for my buck.

Actually, if anyone has an idea of a good WW career path I'd appreciate it. Right now I'm still looking through all the books that have come out that I've never read so I'm sure I'm missing lots of possibilities. What would you say are the most important books/sources for helping to build this WW?

Edit: I'm going to start a new thread as the purpose of this one was to get advice on a career. The War Weaver sounds exactly like what I want to do. Thanks Rock!
#18
Wyvernhand
Apr 28, 2009 1:30:41 An alternative to the big 3 would be a Bard. Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+3/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virt+8 would be a perfect support character.

Optimized Inspire Courage (with or without Dragonfire Inspiration) to buff your allies significantly nearly all the time.

Mindsight + Glitterdust means you never get snuck up on...ever, and your allies probably never have to worry about messing with See Invis or True Seeing.

Sublime Chord casting means that late game, you still get all the most powerful buffs and debuffs to support when things are more difficult.

Whirling Blade + Sudden Stunning weapon gives you a scaling reflex based save or die with a decent range.

Bardic skills means you'll probably know something, or be able to convince someone of something, or otherwise have applicable skills to do stuff with things. Oh, and UMD.

Multifaceted, verstile, valuable, and effective. What more could you want from a support character?
#19
dr_rocktopus
Apr 28, 2009 1:42:35 I dunno if WW is really a Big Three member, though.. :: shrug ::
#20
Senevri
Apr 28, 2009 3:02:18 Just because WW is subtle AND loses caster levels, doesn't make it mind-bogglingly awesome.

I mean, doesn't something like Wiz 5 /WW 5 / Uncanny Trickster 3/Human Paragon 3 get to share, what, shapechange with the group? Well, eventually anyway...
#21
dr_rocktopus
Apr 28, 2009 3:05:46 I mean, preaching to the choir.. I have a build that can celerity and favor of the martyr the group in a single gesture. You can make them incredibly flashy, frankly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 maddcow2k Apr 27, 2009 3:14:05	I'm currently going to be playing a new campaign as a Dragon Wraught Kobold. I've been out of touch with D&D 3.5 rules for a while and am first looking for help to decide what class i would like to play as. Hopefully there will be a core group of 4-6 players, my wife being one of them, and while I'm not too sure what everyone else is going to play, I want to play more of a support class as I am almost universally the main melee damage dealer. I also min/max a lot and it's painfully obvious once we get going in the campaign a ways. I'm thinking of choosing either a cleric, a druid, or a wizard. My GM is allowing all books and I'm leaning more towards the druid as it sounds like something I would prefer to play as. I'm not looking for super cheese builds, though it's way too hard to not try to min/max for myself. Hence I want to try a support class that has min/max abilities/capabilities. That way, even if I am super cheese, I'm not completely obvious about it since I'm buffing/supporting my team, and not trying to be the one man army. Of course, the occasional wildshape changing Legendary Ape or Dire Polar Bear always sounds like having fun if I just want to role-play my druid going postal. Right now I'm looking for which class to play and would like to hear what everyone has to say about which of those 3 core classes is a good support class. (Like I said, I'm leaning towards druid because it seems very support friendly, and has lots of utility when it comes to shapechanging/wildshape etc...) I'm most likely going to be venerable if that makes a difference. An old, but wise/smart Dragon Wraught Kobold. Your advice is most welcome. Thanks in advance!
#2 Senevri Apr 27, 2009 6:12:10	Dragonwrought Kobold, Draconic Ritual of Passage, Draconic Reservoir, Greater Draconic Ritual of Passage. Sorcerer. Nice, but not cheese yet. Old or older Dragonwrought Kobold qualifies for epic feats. THAT is cheese. although, many epic feats remain inaccessible, due to other prerequisites they have. Also, they don't accrue aging penalties.
#3 pithica Apr 27, 2009 8:52:19	All three of those classes can easily fill the God/Batman roles and/or the Martyr/Whatever roles, if built well. They are top tier classes, and any of them is going to be decent. If I had to pick between the three, I'd go wizard, then druid, then cleric, but that's based solely on personal preference, not on which is 'better' or whatever, all three rock. However, I too recommend going sorcerer with a dragonwrought kobold. With the greater draconic rite of passage, you'll be getting new spell levels as quick as a wizard. In addition, you'll have access to all the cool sorcerer only spells (like Wings of Cover). And, if you pick your spells/feats right, you'll have a lot of versatility for support to fill in all the blanks around the way.
#4 thaliost Apr 27, 2009 10:37:49	Woot! Persuade your DM to let play an old-wyrm dragonwrought, then make an epic character :P
#5 sofawall Apr 27, 2009 10:50:16	Sorcerer/War Weaver?
#6 maddcow2k Apr 27, 2009 10:57:27	What are some of the spells that the Sorcerer can get that is either exclusive to the class, or that help the party? I didn't think about a Sorcerer either, so this is good. As for convincing to be an epic character to begin with, I wouldn't want to do that. The concept of the campaign is VERY similar to the web comic called Goblins! We are all going to start at 0 level and have to defend our village and the chest of valuables in plain sight from a group of low level PCs, and then we get fed up that we ourselves are going to adventure and level up to stop adventurers from tearing us a new one all the time. I remember I played A sorcerer once, but I think it was either 2nd edition, or a version there of. I normally HATE caster classes, because they're retardedly good. I usually used to play a good solid Monk or Barb character, so I'm out of touch with casters ;) Thanks for the input so far though, I'm going to look up some Sorc info now and see what I can find.
#7 sofawall Apr 27, 2009 11:16:57	Wings of Cover is a silly good sorcerer-only spell. Immediate action, block an attack. Charging Frenzied Berzerker w/o pounce? Wings of Cover!
#8 cru Apr 27, 2009 11:20:49	Charging Frenzied Berzerker w/o pounce? WTF? It's like a sorcerer w/o Wings of Cover!
#9 jopustopin Apr 27, 2009 11:24:21	Nothing wrong with min/maxing; if you want an easy melee character that is a support class, add a level of Dragon Shaman; fast healing 1 to all allies is very nice outside battle and during battle check it out.
#10 sofawall Apr 27, 2009 11:24:22	Yeah, but when I thought of FB I was like "HAH! Wings of Cover!" but then I realized the FB would just hit me 4 more times... Darn Ninjas...
#11 maddcow2k Apr 27, 2009 11:59:09	I don't mind doing melee, a la Druid or Cleric, or polymorph or other similiar tools, but I would prefer to be more casterish so that I can take a step back and be the groups fail safe/buff bot. I want a couple of my friends, and more importantly my wife, to take up much of the lime/spot light. I want to be the one the immobilizes the enemy so that they can get sneak attacks, or silence the wizard so the melee can thump him, or put haste on everyone so they feel a lot more powerful than they really are. I'm all about the utility for the most part. I might have a few defensive/offensive spells, but mostly I'm there to make the rest of the group look good, and I can't think of many melee classes that would work well with this idea. Edit: Hence while Sorc sounds enticing now that many have mentioned it, I'm partial to Cleric or Druid just because of healing abilities. I'm not too sure what everyone else is going to play, so I'm going in with the mindset of playing a Cleric/Druid if no one else is a solid healer, otherwise Sorc sounds like fun at this point. Everyone on this board has a lot of useful information which I am grateful for.
#12 sofawall Apr 27, 2009 12:10:37	You do know you just described a God Wizard, right? Making the enemies weak and your guys strong? I re-iterate my suggestion of War Weaver. Hit everyone with a bunch of buff spells as a move action? Yes, please!
#13 muertog Apr 27, 2009 12:12:21	There are several ways to look at the casters-as-support. Druids are not quite so much the party buffer as they are "wildshape-rawr!", thus become damage dealers. They have a few decent spells, but I personally feel their spells are not quite as good as the other options. Wizards can do anything. Mid-way through the campaign, you need to fill a different role, easily done. Great for battlefield control, not quite as good for buffing the party. Sorcs are more focused. Pick mostly spells you see yourself casting several times a day, otherwise their lack of flexibility is going to make you cry. Otherwise, very similar to wizards (same selections of spells) for being buff/debuffzard. Clerics seem to be more party-buffer than the above options. Yes, you can make a combat monster with a cleric, but you can just as easily make the entire party combat monsters by using mass or legion's versions of their spells. DMM is cheese (and pretty stinky cheese at that), unless nightsticks are not available in the campaign. Prestige classes alter this a bit. I keep hearing about this war weaver (haven't bothered to read it yet). If you want a self-imposed challenge, take the BoED Vow of Peace (or was that Nonviolence). Only take spells that cannot cause damage. Flesh to Stone doesn't break those vows, right?
#14 sofawall Apr 27, 2009 12:15:47	Read War Weaver. It makes Wizards the new buffers.
#15 dr_rocktopus Apr 27, 2009 12:17:44	How convenient that I should genteelly appear, out of nowhere, with a sig full of advice on building a war weaver.
#16 maddcow2k Apr 27, 2009 12:42:13	How convenient that I should genteelly appear, out of nowhere, with a sig full of advice on building a war weaver. I've only heard of War Weaver being mentioned on the boards so I decided to check them out with your links. I think that the WW is almost exactly what I would like to be. Someone who is a big party support, but isn't exactly gimped if the case needs be. The tapestry buffing abilities sounds very cool. Anyone else have any experience or opinions about the WW?
#17 maddcow2k Apr 27, 2009 13:07:18	How convenient that I should genteelly appear, out of nowhere, with a sig full of advice on building a war weaver. Rock, I glanced through your links and builds and was wondering if you could help me come up with a good WW character that is intended to start at lvl 1 as a Kobold Dragon Wraught. A lot of builds have human as the race and thus I would be missing a feat, and some also have ridiculous amounts of PrC that make me feel that I would have to be a higher level to get the most bang for my buck. Actually, if anyone has an idea of a good WW career path I'd appreciate it. Right now I'm still looking through all the books that have come out that I've never read so I'm sure I'm missing lots of possibilities. What would you say are the most important books/sources for helping to build this WW? Edit: I'm going to start a new thread as the purpose of this one was to get advice on a career. The War Weaver sounds exactly like what I want to do. Thanks Rock!
#18 Wyvernhand Apr 28, 2009 1:30:41	An alternative to the big 3 would be a Bard. Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard+3/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord2/Virt+8 would be a perfect support character. Optimized Inspire Courage (with or without Dragonfire Inspiration) to buff your allies significantly nearly all the time. Mindsight + Glitterdust means you never get snuck up on...ever, and your allies probably never have to worry about messing with See Invis or True Seeing. Sublime Chord casting means that late game, you still get all the most powerful buffs and debuffs to support when things are more difficult. Whirling Blade + Sudden Stunning weapon gives you a scaling reflex based save or die with a decent range. Bardic skills means you'll probably know something, or be able to convince someone of something, or otherwise have applicable skills to do stuff with things. Oh, and UMD. Multifaceted, verstile, valuable, and effective. What more could you want from a support character?
#19 dr_rocktopus Apr 28, 2009 1:42:35	I dunno if WW is really a Big Three member, though.. :: shrug ::
#20 Senevri Apr 28, 2009 3:02:18	Just because WW is subtle AND loses caster levels, doesn't make it mind-bogglingly awesome. I mean, doesn't something like Wiz 5 /WW 5 / Uncanny Trickster 3/Human Paragon 3 get to share, what, shapechange with the group? Well, eventually anyway...
#21 dr_rocktopus Apr 28, 2009 3:05:46	I mean, preaching to the choir.. I have a build that can celerity and favor of the martyr the group in a single gesture. You can make them incredibly flashy, frankly.