Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 txhazard Jun 18, 2009 15:27:39	Okay my group is thinking of having kind of a fight night of sorts, the main purpose isnt so much competetive as is for experimenting with interesting builds. I will be making threads with other builds, in hopes that other will enjoy tweaking and giving thier own spin on everything. Level 3 Cleric (of whatever doesnt really matter) Level 3 Wizard Level 10 Mystic Theurge Level 4 Transmogrifist Vow of Poverty Human
#2 iskajir Jun 18, 2009 18:45:50	How is VoP going to work out with Wizard? Your spellbook is going to be quite a valuable item.
#3 sofawall Jun 19, 2009 1:53:30	Yeah, Wizards with VoP CANNOT work.
#4 tdsaw111 Jun 19, 2009 17:26:40	Other than flavor, I don't actually see a rules conflict. There is no price tag that I can find for a filled spell book, and to most other classes it is essentially very nicely decorated toilet paper. And since it is actually just a book with no magical properties of it's own I don't see where it violates the Vow.Also wizards do not need to amass wealth to be effective. Granted the Wiz would have a hard time improving his repertoire but rules wise it is doable.
#5 sofawall Jun 19, 2009 17:57:45	Wizard Spellbook, Blank (15 gp) Ink and Pens have a cost. It also costs money to scribe into a spellbook, other than the free spells every level. And even then, a spellbook with no spells in it is worth 15 gp. The value goes up with spells in it. EDIT: And don't you dare say the price is only for a blank spellbook. That there's no listed price for a full one, only the price for what it takes to get a blank one to a full one. There's no listed price for +4 light fortification full plate, is there? Only rules on how to get the price. I guess that means VoP characters can wear it, then.
#6 ninjarabbit Jun 19, 2009 18:02:49	Mystic theurge builds are generally subpar, you lose too many CLs on both sides and have to burn 2 feats on practiced spellcaster for both sides just to be marginally effective. You'd be better off being a cleric with domains that have wizard spells, same flavor but with much more power. Some good domains for this include trickery, magic, spell, time, and travel.
#7 iskajir Jun 19, 2009 18:09:37	Check PHB p179, which has the cost/ selling price of a filled spellbook. A standard spell book, filled, would be worth 5k gp. Pricey for a VoP character. Also, adding a spell to a spellbook (except those gained by levelling) would be 100gp/spell level plus the cost of gaining access to the spell. Any character with the necessary connections to sell magic items would/should similarly be able to sell a spellbook in a setting with a population of wizards. If there's no wizard in the party, it's straight up loot. Sorc 4/Cleric 3/ MT 10 would get around that, but lose even more casting than the char you outlined. Discussion on early entry tricks abound. Check with your DM as most are controversial to some extent. Check very nice MT Handbook here:
#8 sofawall Jun 19, 2009 18:55:57	White Dragonspawn can bring a sorcerer even with wizards for Mystic Theurge, then GDRoP to get a level ahead. Stil subpar, but better. If you can Dragonwrought/Loredrake to fly, you're golden. Well, if you can also take White dragonspawn. 4th level castingt at ecl 2.
#9 hanniball Jun 20, 2009 12:07:46	Level 3 Cleric (of whatever doesnt really matter) Any race Cleric 3 with the Planning and Undeath Domains Feats: Extend Spell (planning bonus), Extra Turning (undeath bonus), Persistant Spell (1), Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell (3) Turn Undead attempts: 7+cha mod. Just enough for one Persistant Spell. Either way...just my 2 cp
#10 risner Jun 20, 2009 12:48:08	Level 3 Wizard Vow of Poverty Level 3 Sorcerer Fixed. There is no price tag that I can find for a filled spell book Wrong. Spellbooks have a price, even blank ones. There is no reasonable way to argue that VoP allows (flavor or rules) a spellbook.
#11 tdsaw111 Jun 20, 2009 17:38:18	Wrong. Spellbooks have a price, even blank ones. There is no reasonable way to argue that VoP allows (flavor or rules) a spellbook. Actually a wizard receives his first spell book for free.And I don't see a cost listed for buying a new book, the only cost listed is for inscribing the spells, which is negated if you only inscribe the free spells you get each level. Like I said, such a wizard would have limited options. As for the cost for selling the item, that I hadnt seen. I agree that Sorcerer simply fixes the problem.
#12 iskajir Jun 20, 2009 19:03:28	The cost for buying a new spellbook is in the equipment section of the PHB. 15gp. I think someone linked to appropriate bit of SRD earlier in the discussion.
#13 tdsaw111 Jun 20, 2009 19:16:50	If you can use any mundane simply weapon, and have spell components, then I don't see it odd to assume a 15 gp book is out of the question. Considering a Heavy Mace is 12 gp, and a Heavy Crossbow is 50. I would say it is definately in the Ask DM first area. RAI I think the spellbook, assuming that you arent adding spells from other sourse, should be doable given that Spell Components are allowed. Anyway, I would say that Sorc is far better in this instance anyway.
#14 risner Jun 20, 2009 23:47:19	Actually a wizard receives his first spell book for free. It has value. A +5 Vorpal Longsword has value, but going by your logic a VoP character can use a +5 Vorpal if someone gave it to him for free. If you can use any mundane simply weapon, and have spell components, then I don't see it odd to assume a 15 gp book is out of the question. The last wizard I built has a 350,000 gp spellbook. Each spell in it has value for resell.
#15 tdsaw111 Jun 21, 2009 0:53:52	It has value. A +5 Vorpal Longsword has value, but going by your logic a VoP character can use a +5 Vorpal if someone gave it to him for free. No. My logic is that the first spell book is a class feature. It is not given by someone any more than your racial adjustments are given by your parentage. It is a class feature. I am unaware of any class that gives you a +5 Vorpal longsword. The last wizard I built has a 350,000 gp spellbook. Each spell in it has value for resell. The no spell casters can take VoP. They cast spells which have a resale value as well. So it seems that it is moot. If you consider that a wizard COULD sell his spell book as a violation of the Vow, then you MUST consider that the Sorcerer or Cleric or Druid etc COULD sell their spell casting services. Therefore they have as much "wealth" available as the Wizard does. Also, no class can really take it because they could sell their services (Class Features), hence having a source of income, meaning they are in violation.
#16 Wyvernhand Jun 21, 2009 1:03:40	VoP in no way prevents you from possessing wealth. If someone throws a sack of gold at you, you don't instantly lose all class features. A magic weapon isn't your kryptonite. You are obligated to donate that as soon as possible though. So a cleric or druid who sells his services could take the money, walk down the street to a church or orphanage, or school, or whatever, and give it all away without violating their vow. Same with a party of all VoP characters who somehow manage to kill a dragon. They don't have to leave the hoard there, but they would be required to either transport it to a place where it will be used for good, rather than kept for personal betterment. So yea...your logic on that is flawed. Now, a wizard is different. He possesses an item with a direct GP value. He is gaining continual benefit from it. He is obligated to give it away or sell it for cash to give to the needy at his earliest convienence, or risk violating his vows. Lame, but thems the bitter apples. Thats one of the fundamental problems with Sacred Vows...too easy for a DM to mess with you since what is considered expedient is completely up to him.
#17 dr_rocktopus Jun 21, 2009 1:35:20	Actually, if any of those items are magical, I believe it technically does violate it, as per the text of the feats handling. The rest, I'm not sure about. You can't use any of it, that's for certain. VoP wizards are strictly speaking possible only with tattooed spellbooks which will mean you almost certainly have to be a geometer, or similar, thanks to the highly limited spell set. I think you could get someone else to scribe them onto you, technically. Interesting question, how much is a body of a high level character worth on the open market? I posit that a VoP character is not permitted to own their own body, technically speaking. ::snicker::
#18 sofawall Jun 21, 2009 3:21:47	If you can use any mundane simply weapon, and have spell components, then I don't see it odd to assume a 15 gp book is out of the question. Considering a Heavy Mace is 12 gp, and a Heavy Crossbow is 50. Yet they're specifically spelled out as usable. It says you can't have anything except what is listed there. Spellbooks are not there. It seems to be an oversight to me, but they included spell component pouch, so maybe not.
#19 tdsaw111 Jun 21, 2009 7:40:45	It seems to be an oversight to me, but they included spell component pouch, so maybe not. Honestly, to me, it seems that the spellbook was probably an oversight. It really comes down to the fact that for a VOP build, using arcane magic, a Sorc is superior to a Wiz anyway. A wiz loses the main advantage he has over a Sorc, the unlimited spells known, allowing him to cover any and every base. But, truthfully, I don't want to beat a dead horse.
#20 Wyvernhand Jun 21, 2009 21:44:17	[server reset buggy double post]
#21 risner Jun 22, 2009 2:31:39	No. My logic is that the first spell book is a class feature. MUST consider that the Sorcerer or Cleric or Druid etc COULD sell their spell casting services. Therefore they have as much "wealth" available as the Wizard does. Ancestial Relic and Kensai both have abilities (Feat/Class) that would violate. Having a class feature that violates means you can't take that class. It doesn't mean you can have a free pass. Your wrong on the spell casting services. If I kill an NPC Wizard, I am not bummed if he didn't cast Permanency for me before he died. I might be bummed if his default loot wasn't present (a spellbook) since I can go sell the spellbook. VoP wizards are strictly speaking possible only with tattooed spellbooks ... I think you could get someone else to scribe them onto you, technically. Even then it has value, but it is in terms of "you need to copy these out of the book" value since the book is your hide. Also, you couldn't get someone else to scribe them on you any more than you could use someone else's cure light wounds potion.