Me, and some friends are starting a new Campain, and I have taken up the role as a cleric.
The stats we got all got are:
18, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10
We start as a lvl 6 char.
We must only use races who got a +/- 2 as the highest(races whit +4, for instances, to some stats is not allowed).
All books are allowed.
Starting gold: 10.000 gp
Max Price for 1 magic item: 3.000
Max price for all magic items: 5.000
What i have choosen so far is:
- Race: Elf
Stats:
Str: 12
Dex: 18(16+2)
Con: 10(12-2)
Int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 10
The 16 to dex for the higher AC.
The 14 to Int for more Skill points
The 18 to Wis for more bonus spells + more power full spells.
The scenarie will be one centered on a city(can nearly call it a big city), and some of our quests will bring us out side the city, but some(maybe even most) will/can even take place inside it.
My party members is:
Male Human, Druid (Chaotic Neutral)
Male Half-elf, Monk (Lawful neutral)
Male Elf, Ranger (Chaotic Netural)
Female , Sorcerer (Chaotic Neutral)
Female Human, Rogue (Chaotic Netural)
And me: Female , , Cleric (Alignment unknown)
Nothing is decided yet, and will be VERY grateful for all advices you can give on my cleric here.
Note: Should I add that we use the 3.5 rule set? Well, have do it now anyway. ;)
Best Regards
Trebond ..
The reason why i put the 16(later 18) in to dex, was to put in bout higher AC and mobility(a huge armor will always slow you down).
How much will a Cleric benefit from a high Cha ?
Note: I forgot 1 thing in the main post:
All epic classes is available, multi class chars too.
Generally speaking, humans beat elves as clerics, because of the extra feat.
What role will you be filling in that party as the cleric? Is your Druid playing the tank/BSF with Wildshape, or were you being relegated to that role? Is DMM cheese of any type allowed/desired? What books/setting are you playing with (I know you say 'all books' but you'd be surprised at how differently that is often interpreted by DMs)? Have you read the handbook(s) for clerics/CoDzillas? Have you read any of the multiple 'help me build a cleric' threads floating around?
Could defendly be an idea ..
The reason why i put the 16(later 18) in to dex, was to put in bout higher AC and mobility(a huge armor will always slow you down).
How much will a Cleric benefit from a high Cha ?
Note: I forgot 1 thing in the main post:
All epic classes is available, multi class chars too.
conventional wisdom for clerics doesn't favor a high dexterity unless you want to focus on being a competent archer, but ranged spells are better anyway. You can avoid movement problems as a heavily armored character by getting mithril armor, riding a mount, flying, being a dwarf, or using other magic items/effects that compensate.
High charisma determines a clerics number of turn undead attempts per day. If you can use the divine metamagic feat from complete divine, this is a arguably the most powerful tool in your arsenal as a cleric.
I'd probably go cloistered cleric instead of regular cleric and trade the knowledge domain for knowledge devotion for bonuses to your attack and damage rolls. BAB won't manner since you're only 1 level away from divine power so all you're really losing is a few hps but you're getting way more skill points, and extra feat/domain, and lore.
You'll want the elf domain for point blank shot. Your other domain is up in the air. Rapid shot and precise shot are recommended feats.
While I am a proponent of Dex for Clerics, because of the reflex save, you don't generally want your Dex that high if you're sacrificing Con as a Cleric, since you will likely be wearing heavy armor and the dex won't apply.
Generally speaking, humans beat elves as clerics, because of the extra feat.
What role will you be filling in that party as the cleric? Is your Druid playing the tank/BSF with Wildshape, or were you being relegated to that role? Is DMM cheese of any type allowed/desired? What books/setting are you playing with (I know you say 'all books' but you'd be surprised at how differently that is often interpreted by DMs)? Have you read the handbook(s) for clerics/CoDzillas? Have you read any of the multiple 'help me build a cleric' threads floating around?
We general play whit the normal books, but take what we want from the other books(spells, feats, EQ etc).
And is reading up on The Cleric Handbook at the moment.
And no, haven't found other cleric threads, but if you can recommend any1 I would really like to know.
The guide I'm reading listed Monk's Belt as a item who could add Wis to AC(like monks and ninjas), where can I find that item ? (I have tryed to look in DMG, but couldn't find it there).
My main role in the group will be as the Healer.
The druid will take some of the Tanking role whit a wolf(will be tripping a lot of enemies if I know that person right), and the monk will have some tanking too.
My second role will be as a buffer.
If I put my 16 in Cha, and take the Mind Domain, then I could end up as a good leader for the Pack too.
But well .. the main role for me as a Cleric will be Healing.
But if I shouldn't put the 16 in Dex, where should I then put it ?
And what armor would you advice me to to use, a Full plate ?
And, no I didn't have any plans for being an Archer Cleric .. was only for the added AC I put the 16 in dex.
Thanks for the replys so far. :D
Not sure, but doesn't the Monk's belt only work if you are unarmored?
Correct. Also, if you are going to be a healer I would sugest focusing on Meta magic spells like Quicken, or buy MM rods of quickening, which I believe you can do with DMM also. This way you can quicken the heals and buff/blast with your remaining actions. Also, I think your big dex is also a waist much better in Con or Str IMO. Which is why elves kind of screw cleric with thier Con cack, but RP is RP.
Str: 12 (+1)
Dex: 10 (+0)
Con: 12 (+1)
Int: 14 (+2)
Wis: 18 (+4)
Cha: 16 (+3)
Whit a full plate(+8 to AC) and a Heavy shield(+2 to AC) I'm on 20 in AC.
And could get a ring of protection (+1 to AC) if needed ..
But I dont know if I should move the 16 to Str or Con instead of using it at Cha.
I'm not the most "diplomatic" char in the party anyway, ofcause I could take the mind domain and boost the social aspect of the Char.
One of the main reasons why I favor an elf is that I will only need 4 hours of meditation(sleep) per night, Its 4 hours more as awaiken per day, 28 hours in a Week, its 1 day more then the other in the party, and its huge when we can use craft etc(The Exp consuming from crafting items is removed, but the "work time" to get an item made is increased alot).
Any input/advices/feedback is more then welcome.
I have tryed to move the stats a bit around .. and ended op whit something like this:
Str: 12 (+1)
Dex: 10 (+0)
Con: 12 (+1)
Int: 14 (+2)
Wis: 18 (+4)
Cha: 16 (+3)
Whit a full plate(+8 to AC) and a Heavy shield(+2 to AC) I'm on 20 in AC.
And could get a ring of protection (+1 to AC) if needed ..
But I dont know if I should move the 16 to Str or Con instead of using it at Cha.
I'm not the most "diplomatic" char in the party anyway, ofcause I could take the mind domain and boost the social aspect of the Char.
One of the main reasons why I favor an elf is that I will only need 4 hours of meditation(sleep) per night, Its 4 hours more as awaiken per day, 28 hours in a Week, its 1 day more then the other in the party, and its huge when we can use craft etc(The Exp consuming from crafting items is removed, but the "work time" to get an item made is increased alot).
Any input/advices/feedback is more then welcome.
Wow if I could get the craft XPs removed from my campaign I would be a crafting maniac.... That is huge.
There is a item in the MiC that allows you to sleep just like of any race and still cast it is a bedroll I for get it's exact name... Also, it is fairly affordable for what it does.
I would think your charisma is score is really dependent on how much you plan to utilize DMM or run into undead. I mean from an optimization stand point Cha doesn't do much for a cleric other than fuel DMM and make you a better turner...
Okay .. I hate when I cant remember what a shortcut mean so, I have to ask: DMM, what does that stand for ?
And no, undead isn't what we will run into the most in this campain(based on the info we got so far).
If I should put the 16 in some thing else then Cha, should it then be str or con ?
Could move my 14 too if needed .. so I ended up whit something like this:
Str: 16 (+3)
Dex: 10 (+0)
Con: 14 (+2)
Int: 12 (+1)
Wis: 18 (+4)
Cha: 12 (+1)
Will be a boost to my Str and Con.
What domain and feats will be best for a Healing Cleric?
I have been reading the Cleric handbook, and tryed to sort out if its worth getting a prestige class already as lvl 5 or 6 .. but well .. I can't decide if there is any Pres. class who will really add something great for a Healing point of view, or I should just keep going as a normal Cleric ..
We general play whit the normal books, but take what we want from the other books(spells, feats, EQ etc).Normal books? Does that mean core only? or core + campaign? or core + completes? or core + campaign + completes? or core plus races? or what?
Knowing spefically which books your using (or at least, which are disallowed) goes a long way toward helping with a build.And no, haven't found other cleric threads, but if you can recommend any1 I would really like to know.
Here is the class handbooks links. I don't know of many other 'handbook' type threads specific to generic clerics, but if you run through the 'handy links' list stickied at the top of the forum, there are a number of builds that use clerics, that have a LOT of information. Also just scan through the first couple pages on the forum. When I looked yesterday, there were 5 threads about Clerics on the first page. A lot of the advice people will give you is in one or more of those threads.The guide I'm reading listed Monk's Belt as a item who could add Wis to AC(like monks and ninjas), where can I find that item ? (I have tryed to look in DMG, but couldn't find it there).
Already answered above as in the DMG/SRD, but if you still can't find it, make sure your looking for "Belt, Monk's" and not "Monk's Belt".My main role in the group will be as the Healer.
This isn't a role, it's a form of slavery. Most of the time, you'll be screwing yourself and your party if you focus on it.My second role will be as a buffer.
You should play this as your primary role, with your secondary roll being Debuffer. Healing is generally something you do outside of combat and everyone should be involved.If I put my 16 in Cha, and take the Mind Domain, then I could end up as a good leader for the Pack too.
If you go any kind of DMM cleric (for your party above, I would recommend DMM-Quicken over DMM-Persistent), you want your highest or 2nd highest stat in Cha, generally.But well .. the main role for me as a Cleric will be Healing.
Again, it shouldn't be healing. Healing is a trap. You can 'win' doing it, but you'll never be a 'winner' with that as your focus.But if I shouldn't put the 16 in Dex, where should I then put it ?
If I were playing a DMM-Persist cleric with those stats, I'd go...
18-Cha, 16-Wis, 14-Con, 12-Dex, 12-Str, 10-Int
Unless I were taking PrC's that required skills, then I'd switch Str and Int
DMM-Quicken would be
18-Wis, 16-Cha, 14-Str, 12-Con, 12-Dex, 10-Int
For a cleric with no DMM, I'd take the above but drop Cha to the 10 and move everything else up.And what armor would you advice me to to use, a Full plate ?
Mithril Full Plate, with Defending Armor Spikes.And, no I didn't have any plans for being an Archer Cleric .. was only for the added AC I put the 16 in dex.
Mithril Full Plate + Defending Armor Spikes + Animated Shield + Defending Armor spikes, almost always beats Bracers of Armor + Monks Belt + Dex. Not always, mind you.
Oh man .. if you ever find that item then please write the name here .. Would be a Great item to have! :D
Okay .. I hate when I cant remember what a shortcut mean so, I have to ask: DMM, what does that stand for ?
DMM stands for Divine Meta Magic I personally haven't gotten to taste this particular brand of cheese but from everything I have read it is guda-riffic
When I get home and get my books I will see if I can find it for you I used it in my last campaign and it was the fatness...
Pithica the poster above me is also suggesting the DMM type cleric in which you need a high charisma to get more turns to power your DMM stuff. There are whole threads dedicated to the abuse/use of DMM and persistant spell in particular...
Regarding Divine Metamagic:
Most builds heavily lean on the availability of a single item: Nightsticks from Libris Mortis. Explain what you are trying to do to the DM, and make sure he is on-board with the gouda, otherwise you might find your supply of Nightsticks removed or completely unavailable fairly quickly, leaving you with useless feats.
Personally, any game that I DM would allow the DMM, but you have to be able to cast the persisted spell level normally (IE: cast 7th level spells at least), and not make nightsticks available for purchase or creation (make only 1 work per character at the most). Purchasable items that duplicate feats and have no limitations on stacking are pretty broken :P Then again, I think DM fiat trumps anything. ^_^ And I tend to be very unforgiving to cheesy players. ^_^
We general play whit the normal books, but take what we want from the other books(spells, feats, EQ etc).Normal books? Does that mean core only? or core + campaign? or core + completes? or core + campaign + completes? or core plus races? or what?
Knowing spefically which books your using (or at least, which are disallowed) goes a long way toward helping with a build.
We have access to all Core + Complete+ Race of books and ofcause all MM books and the DMG books .. and PH 2 too and the Gear book(s)(cant remember if there is only 1 of them).
I could try to get the other books, but would be in an illegal way so .. well .. will not try that.
I can try to get a full list of what books my friends have if needed.This isn't a role, it's a form of slavery. Most of the time, you'll be screwing yourself and your party if you focus on it.
You should play this as your primary role, with your secondary roll being Debuffer. Healing is generally something you do outside of combat and everyone should be involved.
Your right .. I could always choose to "convert" my spells to cure spells if needed after a fight.If you go any kind of DMM cleric (for your party above, I would recommend DMM-Quicken over DMM-Persistent), you want your highest or 2nd highest stat in Cha, generally.
Again, it shouldn't be healing. Healing is a trap. You can 'win' doing it, but you'll never be a 'winner' with that as your focus.
I have tryed to look up DMM, and I will defendly try to make my char one, I have even got a "green light" from my DM to make a cleric whit DMM
Could be great running around whit Divine Power 24hours a day ..
Only got 1 problem.
I'm only a lvl 6 cleric whit 18(maybe 19) in Cha.
Divine power is a level 4 spells, and Persistent make the will take 6 levels higher.
DMM will make me use 4 on the spell and 6 for the feat, thats 10 in total.
I get 3 + my cha modifyer, and whit a Cha on 18 its only 3+4= 7 ..
I will need +6 in cha = 24 to get my cha modifyer so high that I can get 10 so I can Persistent the Divine Power spell.
I could use the Nightsticks, to get 4 more turns per day .. but it cost 7,5k gp.
Or have I misunderstod something ??
And something else, Divine Power is a 4th lvl spell, and I can first cast them as a lvl 7 cleric.
(dunno if a Wis mody. on 18 can help me to get 1 lvl 4 spell).Mithril Full Plate, with Defending Armor Spikes.
Mithril Full Plate + Defending Armor Spikes + Animated Shield + Defending Armor spikes, almost always beats Bracers of Armor + Monks Belt + Dex. Not always, mind you.
I only got 5k gp to buy magic items in total, and can only spend up to 3k gp on each magic item in total.
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Any1 who know what prestige class is good to work for as a Cleric ?
Thanks for all the replys.
well those are some screwy restrictions on your starting magic items. I dont really have an answer for that cept maybe bribe your DM or something.
Unless you are looking to theme your cleric I do not think there are very many good PrCs out there... but the true CO guys may know more
We have access to all Core + Complete+ Race of books and ofcause all MM books and the DMG books .. and PH 2 too and the Gear book(s)(cant remember if there is only 1 of them).
A lot of spells from the Completes and some 3.0 sources were updated (in some cases improved and in others nerfed) in the Spell Compendium. It has some very nice Cleric spells and I would recommend it.
Only got 1 problem.
I'm only a lvl 6 cleric whit 18(maybe 19) in Cha.
Divine power is a level 4 spells, and Persistent make the will take 6 levels higher.
DMM will make me use 4 on the spell and 6 for the feat, thats 10 in total.
I get 3 + my cha modifyer, and whit a Cha on 18 its only 3+4= 7 ..
I will need +6 in cha = 24 to get my cha modifyer so high that I can get 10 so I can Persistent the Divine Power spell.
I could use the Nightsticks, to get 4 more turns per day .. but it cost 7,5k gp.
Or have I misunderstod something ??
You have the math wrong, it's one turn attempt + 1 attempt for each level adjustment to the spell. So, for a DMM-Persist, it costs a flat 7 turn attempts (Cha 18 get's you one spell, a Nightstick + Extra Turning get's you a second). DMM-Quicken is a little cheaper at 5 per spell. If you take Easy Metamagic (a dragon magazine feat), that can reduce the cost by one for the chosen metamagic feat.
And something else, Divine Power is a 4th lvl spell, and I can first cast them as a lvl 7 cleric.
(dunno if a Wis mody. on 18 can help me to get 1 lvl 4 spell).
Personally, with your group dynamics, I would go DMM-Quicken over DMM-Persist. Your Druid is already tanking, and you have a number of Glass-cannons in melee. And you're Sorceror is probably going to blast, I'm guessing. What you need is Battlefield Control and buffing/debuffing for the group. A DMM-Quicken cleric with the right domains (and/or domain staffs) can fill this role fairly well.
You can't get Divine Power before 7. Unless you can find it as a lower level spell somewhere and get it added to your spell list.
I only got 5k gp to buy magic items in total, and can only spend up to 3k gp on each magic item in total.
My suggestion was about long-term AC strategy and not meant to be read as a 'this is what you should start with'.
Any1 who know what prestige class is good to work for as a Cleric ?
It depends on what you're going for, but I think my default suggestions would look like Sacred Exorcist, Church Inquisitor, Divine Disciple, Contemplative, and/or a religion specific PrC for your religion, if applicable.
I have tryed to look up DMM, and I will defendly try to make my char one, I have even got a "green light" from my DM to make a cleric whit DMM
Could be great running around whit Divine Power 24hours a day ..
Only got 1 problem.
I'm only a lvl 6 cleric whit 18(maybe 19) in Cha.
Divine power is a level 4 spells, and Persistent make the will take 6 levels higher.
DMM will make me use 4 on the spell and 6 for the feat, thats 10 in total.
I get 3 + my cha modifyer, and whit a Cha on 18 its only 3+4= 7 ..
I will need +6 in cha = 24 to get my cha modifyer so high that I can get 10 so I can Persistent the Divine Power spell.
I could use the Nightsticks, to get 4 more turns per day .. but it cost 7,5k gp.
Or have I misunderstod something ??
And something else, Divine Power is a 4th lvl spell, and I can first cast them as a lvl 7 cleric.
(dunno if a Wis mody. on 18 can help me to get 1 lvl 4 spell).
You use the Turn Undead uses to reduce the level of the metamagic, not the original spell. So, you need to burn 6 uses of turn undead to make a DMM Persistent Divine Power, and cast it as a 4th level spell.
I only got 5k gp to buy magic items in total, and can only spend up to 3k gp on each magic item in total.
Thought about an item crafting feat? Makes stuff cheaper. Craft Magical Arms/Armor or Wonderous Items are two useful ones. See if the DM will go along with any options that let you burn gold instead of exp during crafting...
Armor Spikes of Defending +1 are 8k, but cost 4k (and 320xp) to make. The game I am playing lets us sub 5*xp cost in gold/gems as an alternative payment for the XP. That pushes the total cost of ownership to 5.6k (and 8 days of crafting).
Vest of resistance can boost all saves. 1K (+1), 4k (+2).
If you are going for a front-liner, you will want a weapon. Minimum cost for a +1 weapon is 2k.
Heward's Handy Haversack is almost an auto-include unless you tend to go into extra dimensional spaces often (rope trick and the like). 2k.
If you go the crafting route, make sure to pick up items that you cannot create (like the Heward's), unless there is a party member that has the requisite spells (usually wizard). Burning XP isn't a bad idea, since if you are lower level than the rest of the party, you get more exp than anyone else for the same encounter. I just put forth the idea of cash-for-exp in case other people start looking at you like their own personal discount item store. Make -them- pay for the exp and keep their cash. ^_^
One of the main reasons why I favor an elf is that I will only need 4 hours of meditation(sleep) per night, Its 4 hours more as awaiken per day, 28 hours in a Week, its 1 day more then the other in the party, and its huge when we can use craft etc(The Exp consuming from crafting items is removed, but the "work time" to get an item made is increased alot).
being an elf does not remove the requirement that you must rest for 8 uninterrupted hours before you can regain spells
being an elf does not remove the requirement that you must rest for 8 uninterrupted hours before you can regain spells
For priests, this isn't always true, or at least, if it is, there are a lot of religion's who's priests can't cast spells, ever. A number of them require you to pray for your spells at noon, sundown, midnight, or any number of other times.
For healing, you can consider the "Touch of healing" or the "Imbued Healing" feat from Complete champion. It helps save you spells, potions and wand charges. for the former and gives a minor buff for the latter
There are some others, like Augment Healing from Complete Divine, Magic of the Land from Races of the Wild, Sacred Healing from Complete Divine
The belt of retributive healing is a good and simple item to use. Its in the Item Compendium
If you're facing undead often, boost your cha, turning is very useful at level 6
For combat, you don't need to go into melee. Take fiery burst from complete mage. Its useful and endless. If you go very high in levels, you can consider a rebuilding quest (from PHB2) to replace it with something else.
For priests, this isn't always true, or at least, if it is, there are a lot of religion's who's priests can't cast spells, ever. A number of them require you to pray for your spells at noon, sundown, midnight, or any number of other times.
well thats RAW, if your religion forces you to pray for spells at a specific time then you have to organize your sleep schedule accordingly, thats part of the inconvinience you incur when you become a divine spellcaster and choose your patron diety. The rules of your church might specify that you should pray more than once daily but breaking that rule won't cause you to be unable to regain spells. Flavor text for a religion doesn't change how being a spellcaster works.
anyway my point was, elves (and elans, warforged, undead, etc etc) still need 8 hours a day of uninterrupted rest in order to regain spells from both RAW and RAI standpoints. Whether they need it immediately prior to regaining them is subject to interpretation but I think it's pretty clear that the fact of needing 8 uninterrupted hours is clear and any change to that would be a "house rule".
Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Typically, this hour is at dawn or noon for good clerics and at dusk or midnight for evil ones. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells.
if thats the case and magic item creation costs no xp I'd suggest playing a Elan or Warforged since they don't need to sleep at all
And about sleep .. the Ring of Sustenance, can fix it .. it even only cost 2,5k, you have to wear it for a weak but after that the rings effect will kick in and you only need 2 hours of sleep to get the effect from 8 hours of sleep/resting.
Will defendly buy this item, and then go for a human for the extra feat + skill points. ;)
Thought about an item crafting feat? Makes stuff cheaper. Craft Magical Arms/Armor or Wonderous Items are two useful ones. See if the DM will go along with any options that let you burn gold instead of exp during crafting...
Armor Spikes of Defending +1 are 8k, but cost 4k (and 320xp) to make. The game I am playing lets us sub 5*xp cost in gold/gems as an alternative payment for the XP. That pushes the total cost of ownership to 5.6k (and 8 days of crafting).
Vest of resistance can boost all saves. 1K (+1), 4k (+2).
If you are going for a front-liner, you will want a weapon. Minimum cost for a +1 weapon is 2k.
Heward's Handy Haversack is almost an auto-include unless you tend to go into extra dimensional spaces often (rope trick and the like). 2k.
If you go the crafting route, make sure to pick up items that you cannot create (like the Heward's), unless there is a party member that has the requisite spells (usually wizard). Burning XP isn't a bad idea, since if you are lower level than the rest of the party, you get more exp than anyone else for the same encounter. I just put forth the idea of cash-for-exp in case other people start looking at you like their own personal discount item store. Make -them- pay for the exp and keep their cash. ^_^
I have thought about the crafting feats etc. I would have loved to take Forge rings, but well .. need to be lvl 12 to take that one, but the feat for making armor etc. could be nice to have, and from what I can see it dont I could earn money on it too.
And the "+ 5xexp in gold" system is very nice! Will try to talk whit my DM about using that system.
Personally, with your group dynamics, I would go DMM-Quicken over DMM-Persist. Your Druid is already tanking, and you have a number of Glass-cannons in melee. And you're Sorceror is probably going to blast, I'm guessing. What you need is Battlefield Control and buffing/debuffing for the group. A DMM-Quicken cleric with the right domains (and/or domain staffs) can fill this role fairly well.
Thx for the suggestions on the prestige classes.
About quicken Vs Persist, I would have been going for Persist, but well .. I'm not that sure anymore.
Can Persist goes for every spell who got a durance?
And about domains: what would be a good 1 for a BC/Buffer cleric ?
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Thanks to all for replying.
Is nice to get some feedback and ideas about how to make a good cleric. :D
Thx for the suggestions on the prestige classes.
About quicken Vs Persist, I would have been going for Persist, but well .. I'm not that sure anymore.
Can Persist goes for every spell who got a durance?
And about domains: what would be a good 1 for a BC/Buffer cleric ?
I believe persist is for spells with personal only. If you are not going to go bang then quicken woul probably be a better option for you.
I have always been partial to the Travel and Spell domains myself... gives you good access to spells you cant normally cast.
About quicken Vs Persist, I would have been going for Persist, but well .. I'm not that sure anymore.
Can Persist goes for every spell who got a durance?
Persist affect any spell with a "fixed or personal range", with the exception of spells of "instantaneous duration... nor can spells whose effects are discharged."
Personally, I think they should never have made persistent... they should have made a "Greater Extend Spell" metamagic... give it a +2 or +3 LA, and made the spell duration the next higher on the chart. Rounds -> Minutes -> 10 minutes -> Hours -> Days. :/
At the point where spells can be made for hours/ level, it pretty much is set for days anyways.
Your Group already has at least 2 characters that will be playing that way (Trip Druid and Monk). And two that will be playing that way at least some of the time (Ranger/Rogue). You've also got a sorcerer that I would be willing to more than bet is just going to hang back and blast ****.
What your group does NOT need, is more damage or more front line help. What it needs is someone standing in the back castings buffs, de-buffs, and BC.
DMM-Quicken is better for that. Just Quicken your highest level buff/debuff/or BC, and cast it AND your next highest level one every round until you run out of turn attempts.
If you DO decide to go DMM-persist, you'll need to persist as many fixed range spells as you can. Just look for spells with ranges/effects that look like '20ft radius emanation, centered on you'. I, personally, don't like this, because it means that everyone either has to stay within, or keep coming back to within, 20ft of you to get the benefits of the spell, and that makes you a target for aoe spells. If, however, the ranger, rogue, and/or sorceror all want to play at range, and know how to form up (and adjust) to limit AoE's, this can work out.
Better than the Ring of Sustenance (for sleep) is Heward's Fortifying Bedroll from Complete Mage. It gives you 8hrs rest in 1 hour. Also, if you can play a race template with an Outsider type (without either the Native or Extraplanar subtypes), they don't need to sleep eat or drink.
DMM-Persist is all about building CoDzilla. You buff and equip yourself to the nines, charge in, and hit it with a stick (insert favored weapon here). You can only use Persist on spells with a 'Personal' or 'Fixed' range, and a duration, which means self-buffs are it.
Your Group already has at least 2 characters that will be playing that way (Trip Druid and Monk). And two that will be playing that way at least some of the time (Ranger/Rogue). You've also got a sorcerer that I would be willing to more than bet is just going to hang back and blast ****.
What your group does NOT need, is more damage or more front line help. What it needs is someone standing in the back castings buffs, de-buffs, and BC.
DMM-Quicken is better for that. Just Quicken your highest level buff/debuff/or BC, and cast it AND your next highest level one every round until you run out of turn attempts.
If you DO decide to go DMM-persist, you'll need to persist as many fixed range spells as you can. Just look for spells with ranges/effects that look like '20ft radius emanation, centered on you'. I, personally, don't like this, because it means that everyone either has to stay within, or keep coming back to within, 20ft of you to get the benefits of the spell, and that makes you a target for aoe spells. If, however, the ranger, rogue, and/or sorceror all want to play at range, and know how to form up (and adjust) to limit AoE's, this can work out.
Ah you give just the right arguments for taking Quicken over Persist! :D
I will defendly go for DMM-Quicken.
If I make a human cleric, i will have 4 feats in total:
lvl 1, lvl 3, lvl 6 + the feat from the human race.
And if I take
DDM + quicken .. then I still got 2 feats.
If Im not going in to combat, then Combat Expertise could be an idea.
As a lvl 6 cleric I have 4 in AP, and would be great whit +4 AC. But i dont know if its worth the feat, or there is something better.
I have looked a bit on 'Extra Turning' too .. will give me +4 turns per day, but again: Dont know if its worth the feat.
Better than the Ring of Sustenance (for sleep) is Heward's Fortifying Bedroll from Complete Mage. It gives you 8hrs rest in 1 hour. Also, if you can play a race template with an Outsider type (without either the Native or Extraplanar subtypes), they don't need to sleep eat or drink.
The race template, whit outsider type, where can I find that one ?
In what book ?
And agree! Heward's Fortifying Bedroll is way better.
Even if it cost 3k gp.
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Thx for the Reply again.
Extra Turning gives you (almost) one more Quickened spell/day for free. If you take Easy Metamagic. If I were going DMM-Quicken, my first four feat choices would be, Quicken Spell, DMM-Quicken, Easy Metamagic Quicken, and Extra Turning, in that order.