Heroes of the Elemental Chaos - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 crazy_monkey May 01, 2012 16:19:10	If you have any errata suggestions for Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, please add them to this thread.
#2 crazy_monkey May 02, 2012 15:04:19	Crimson droplets fly from the target as your spell pulls the moisture from its body. Flesh withers, bones creak, and a dry whistle escapes from your opponent as its pain mounts. is the flavor text from horrid wilting. Wasnt this spell always a necromancy spell in previous editions? Also thematically i would say could definitely be considered one, to caus esomething to wither and die sounds like the scope of necromancy Reposted to correct thread.
#3 Dzance May 05, 2012 22:06:32	Pg. 111 Wizard's Flame Arrow Power should use a Minor action instead of a Standard action.
#4 Plaguescarred1 May 06, 2012 15:30:13	Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Blazing Cloud Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Deluge Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Elemental Bolt Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Erupting Earth Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Howling Zephyr Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Ice Prison Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Ignition Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Seismic Shock Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Static Charge Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1. Pg. 140 Lord of Chaos's Rapid Reincarnation Feature should let you reincarnate between 1 second and 1 hour later, instead of 1 minute, so it can be used in combat. Pg. 145 Tome Expertise Feat should require Proficiency with Tomes Implement to limit the 2nd benefit to Tome user only.
#5 psikus May 07, 2012 10:22:38	I think it would be useful to explain in more detail (or at all) why some of these changes are needed. Flame Arrow is a terrible attack power, probably the worst one in the game. More often than not, it's a waste of a standard action, since the extra damage it grants pales next to that of an actual attack - even if you somehow have a party where multiple characters are interested in making ranged weapon attacks (which is rather unlikely). That said, while I agree that it needs to be changed (or removed from the game), I don't think Dzance's solution is a good one. By turning it into a minor action, it no longer works as an attack power, but as a kind of extra damage feature that wizards can get with a small investment. I'd recommend any of the following approaches: Add an actual attack on top of the spell effect. You could safely change the spell to something like: Standard Action, Ranged 10. Target: One enemy. Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex. Hit: 1d10 + Int fire damage. Effect: Choose up to two allies adjacent to you. The next ranged weapon attack that each ally makes before the end of your next turn deals 1d6 extra fire damage. Change the power to a wizard cantrip, make it a minor action, and remove the extra damage. Something like: Effect: The next ranged weapon attack that each target makes before the end of your next turn deals fire damage in addition to its normal type, and gains the fire keyword. Change the attack effect to something actually worth an standard action. (Not that easy, in my opinion). The elementalist at-will attack powers lack a level, which puts them out of reach for non-elementalist sorcerers, but also for the racial features of humans and half-elves, among other interactions. Giving them a level would negate these drawbacks. Personally, I'm against this move, since I believe that these attacks are slightly above the power curve, and this is one of the balancing factors that compensates elementalists for lacking the daily attacks and expanded options of regular sorcerers.
#6 Undrhil May 09, 2012 18:26:48	Pg. 145 Tome Expertise Feat should require Proficiency with Tomes Implement to limit the 2nd benefit to Tome user only. Should also require actually wielding a Tome implement to gain the second benefit.
#7 thewaever May 11, 2012 11:05:26	Shouldn't the Elemental Initiate attack power Disciplined Counter have the implement keyword instead of the weapon keyword? I feel it should for two reasons: 1. The attack roll is against Reflex 2. The elemental initiate starting feature grants them proficiency to ki focuses, which are implements. Shouldn't the attack power work in conjunction with the starting feature? Thank you.
#8 GelatinousOctahedron May 11, 2012 14:13:06	I agree that flame arrow is a terribly underpowered power. Its probably the worst at will attack power in the game, at least that I am familiar with. Its hard to pull in actual combat and has a very weak effect. Increasing the damage significantly would at least make it have very corner case uses, but even if you doubled the damage it would still not be as good as scorching burst, which is one of the weakest wizard powers. You would probably need to increase the close burst 1 to a close burst 3 or 5 as well just to bring it up to purple in charop rankings. Or else increase the burst size and let the damage apply to all ranged weapon attacks they make the next turn. Then it would at least be useful for boosting ranged weapon striker novas. Tome expertise needs to be tweaked at least. Make it a requirement that the person is wielding a tome is enough.
#9 Dzance May 19, 2012 17:05:15	My rationale for making Flame Arrow a minor action includes the following. Wizards are perhaps the most versatile class in the game, when it comes to at-will powers. They have many strong competing at-will attack powers to choose from. But they only get two. Wizard minor actions are also highly coveted, especially in conjunction with dailies (including conjurations, summons, zones, etc.) which are among the strongest in the game. By giving a wizard the option to use both at-wills in a round you are making him more single-threaded like an elementalist. Other than thunderwave (ally-unfriendly) the best wizard at-wills provoke OA's unless you're a staff mage, so you're somewhat pigeon-holed too. No wizard in his right mind would ever choose to use Flame Arrow as his standard action. The only niche case I can think of is maybe a hybrid pacifist cleric or "lazy" wizard that doesn't need Int, which is practically worthless. For the smallest change to the core power, a wizard could select one of his at-wills to be flame arrow as a minor action, and potentially use both at-wills during the same turn. Except you're only realistically just buffing allies since it's unlikely a wizard would use a ranged weapon attack. In terms of game impact, your acting similar to an artificer using the magic weapon at-will that simultaneously buffs ally attacks in addition to your own attack. But it costs you your standard and minor action to do so, whereas the artificer only needs a standard action. I agree with all the expressed negative sentiment. Flame Arrow as written is a terrible TERRIBLE power. It's only redeeming value (and subject to varying interpretations) -- it can add a damage roll to attacks that might not have one, but the vast majority do.
#10 essex Sep 27, 2012 10:31:37	pg. 95 - Elemental Rift - When a creature makes its save and is returned to play, where does it appear? If it appears in the same square it left, then sustaining the power will promptly rebanish the creature back to the elemental chaos. Observe: 1). Sorcerer casts Elemental Rift centered on a creature, slowing it. 2). On its turn, the slowed creature moves 2, but still ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked into the elemental chaos. 3). On his next turn, the Sorcerer uses a Minor action to sustain the effect. 4). The banished creature manages to make its saving throw and is returned to play in the square it last occupied, which is still within the Zone. 5). Since saving throws are generally made at the end of your turn, the creature promptly ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked back into the elemental chaos. Provided that this Utility power forces a creature to return to the square it left, using it makes it relatively easy for a Sorcerer to keep one (or more) creatures out of play for as long as he wants. This is an awesome method for neutralizing a boss monster while mopping up his helpers and positioning your party for the kill.
#11 Undrhil Sep 28, 2012 0:10:38	pg. 95 - Elemental Rift - When a creature makes its save and is returned to play, where does it appear? If it appears in the same square it left, then sustaining the power will promptly rebanish the creature back to the elemental chaos. Observe: 1). Sorcerer casts Elemental Rift centered on a creature, slowing it. 2). On its turn, the slowed creature moves 2, but still ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked into the elemental chaos. 3). On his next turn, the Sorcerer uses a Minor action to sustain the effect. 4). The banished creature manages to make its saving throw and is returned to play in the square it last occupied, which is still within the Zone. 5). Since saving throws are generally made at the end of your turn, the creature promptly ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked back into the elemental chaos. Provided that this Utility power forces a creature to return to the square it left, using it makes it relatively easy for a Sorcerer to keep one (or more) creatures out of play for as long as he wants. This is an awesome method for neutralizing a boss monster while mopping up his helpers and positioning your party for the kill. Technically, the creature's turn already ended. That's why it made it's saving throw. It wasn't in the zone at that time, so it did not end its turn in the zone.
#12 Plaguescarred1 Sep 28, 2012 17:30:52	End of Turn Phase is still on your turn so if it reappears in the zone it would be subject to the zone's effect. pg. 95 - Elemental Rift - When a creature makes its save and is returned to play, where does it appear? I The power should say so and it doesn't. It definitly need errata and should let it reappear in square adjacent to the zone so it is not slowed and removed from play again. RC 233 Removed From Play: An effect that removes a creature from play specifies where the creature reappears when it returns to play.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

crazy_monkey

May 01, 2012 16:19:10

If you have any errata suggestions for Heroes of the Elemental Chaos, please add them to this thread.

crazy_monkey

May 02, 2012 15:04:19

Crimson droplets fly from the target as your spell pulls the moisture from its body. Flesh withers, bones creak, and a dry whistle escapes from your opponent as its pain mounts.
is the flavor text from horrid wilting. Wasnt this spell always a necromancy spell in previous editions? Also thematically i would say could definitely be considered one, to caus esomething to wither and die sounds like the scope of necromancy

Reposted to correct thread.

Dzance

May 05, 2012 22:06:32

Pg. 111 Wizard's Flame Arrow Power should use a Minor action instead of a Standard action.

Plaguescarred1

May 06, 2012 15:30:13

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Blazing Cloud Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Deluge Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Elemental Bolt Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Erupting Earth Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Howling Zephyr Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Ice Prison Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Ignition Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Seismic Shock Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 90 Elementalist Specialty's Static Charge Power should say Sorcerer Attack Power 1.

Pg. 140 Lord of Chaos's Rapid Reincarnation Feature should let you reincarnate between 1 second and 1 hour later, instead of 1 minute, so it can be used in combat.

Pg. 145 Tome Expertise Feat should require Proficiency with Tomes Implement to limit the 2nd benefit to Tome user only.

psikus

May 07, 2012 10:22:38

I think it would be useful to explain in more detail (or at all) why some of these changes are needed.

Flame Arrow is a terrible attack power, probably the worst one in the game. More often than not, it's a waste of a standard action, since the extra damage it grants pales next to that of an actual attack - even if you somehow have a party where multiple characters are interested in making ranged weapon attacks (which is rather unlikely).

That said, while I agree that it needs to be changed (or removed from the game), I don't think Dzance's solution is a good one. By turning it into a minor action, it no longer works as an attack power, but as a kind of extra damage feature that wizards can get with a small investment. I'd recommend any of the following approaches:

Add an actual attack on top of the spell effect. You could safely change the spell to something like: Standard Action, Ranged 10. Target: One enemy. Attack: Intelligence vs Reflex. Hit: 1d10 + Int fire damage. Effect: Choose up to two allies adjacent to you. The next ranged weapon attack that each ally makes before the end of your next turn deals 1d6 extra fire damage.

Change the power to a wizard cantrip, make it a minor action, and remove the extra damage. Something like: Effect: The next ranged weapon attack that each target makes before the end of your next turn deals fire damage in addition to its normal type, and gains the fire keyword.

Change the attack effect to something actually worth an standard action. (Not that easy, in my opinion).

The elementalist at-will attack powers lack a level, which puts them out of reach for non-elementalist sorcerers, but also for the racial features of humans and half-elves, among other interactions. Giving them a level would negate these drawbacks. Personally, I'm against this move, since I believe that these attacks are slightly above the power curve, and this is one of the balancing factors that compensates elementalists for lacking the daily attacks and expanded options of regular sorcerers.

Undrhil

May 09, 2012 18:26:48

Pg. 145 Tome Expertise Feat should require Proficiency with Tomes Implement to limit the 2nd benefit to Tome user only.

Should also require actually wielding a Tome implement to gain the second benefit.

thewaever

May 11, 2012 11:05:26

Shouldn't the Elemental Initiate attack power Disciplined Counter have the implement keyword instead of the weapon keyword?

I feel it should for two reasons:
1. The attack roll is against Reflex
2. The elemental initiate starting feature grants them proficiency to ki focuses, which are implements. Shouldn't the attack power work in conjunction with the starting feature?

Thank you.

GelatinousOctahedron

May 11, 2012 14:13:06

I agree that flame arrow is a terribly underpowered power. Its probably the worst at will attack power in the game, at least that I am familiar with. Its hard to pull in actual combat and has a very weak effect. Increasing the damage significantly would at least make it have very corner case uses, but even if you doubled the damage it would still not be as good as scorching burst, which is one of the weakest wizard powers. You would probably need to increase the close burst 1 to a close burst 3 or 5 as well just to bring it up to purple in charop rankings.

Or else increase the burst size and let the damage apply to all ranged weapon attacks they make the next turn. Then it would at least be useful for boosting ranged weapon striker novas.

Tome expertise needs to be tweaked at least. Make it a requirement that the person is wielding a tome is enough.

Dzance

May 19, 2012 17:05:15

My rationale for making Flame Arrow a minor action includes the following. Wizards are perhaps the most versatile class in the game, when it comes to at-will powers. They have many strong competing at-will attack powers to choose from. But they only get two.

Wizard minor actions are also highly coveted, especially in conjunction with dailies (including conjurations, summons, zones, etc.) which are among the strongest in the game. By giving a wizard the option to use both at-wills in a round you are making him more single-threaded like an elementalist. Other than thunderwave (ally-unfriendly) the best wizard at-wills provoke OA's unless you're a staff mage, so you're somewhat pigeon-holed too.

No wizard in his right mind would ever choose to use Flame Arrow as his standard action. The only niche case I can think of is maybe a hybrid pacifist cleric or "lazy" wizard that doesn't need Int, which is practically worthless.

For the smallest change to the core power, a wizard could select one of his at-wills to be flame arrow as a minor action, and potentially use both at-wills during the same turn. Except you're only realistically just buffing allies since it's unlikely a wizard would use a ranged weapon attack. In terms of game impact, your acting similar to an artificer using the magic weapon at-will that simultaneously buffs ally attacks in addition to your own attack. But it costs you your standard and minor action to do so, whereas the artificer only needs a standard action.

I agree with all the expressed negative sentiment. Flame Arrow as written is a terrible TERRIBLE power. It's only redeeming value (and subject to varying interpretations) -- it can add a damage roll to attacks that might not have one, but the vast majority do.

#10

essex

Sep 27, 2012 10:31:37

pg. 95 - Elemental Rift - When a creature makes its save and is returned to play, where does it appear? If it appears in the same square it left, then sustaining the power will promptly rebanish the creature back to the elemental chaos. Observe:

1). Sorcerer casts Elemental Rift centered on a creature, slowing it.

2). On its turn, the slowed creature moves 2, but still ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked into the elemental chaos.

3). On his next turn, the Sorcerer uses a Minor action to sustain the effect.

4). The banished creature manages to make its saving throw and is returned to play in the square it last occupied, which is still within the Zone.

5). Since saving throws are generally made at the end of your turn, the creature promptly ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked back into the elemental chaos.

Provided that this Utility power forces a creature to return to the square it left, using it makes it relatively easy for a Sorcerer to keep one (or more) creatures out of play for as long as he wants. This is an awesome method for neutralizing a boss monster while mopping up his helpers and positioning your party for the kill.

#11

Undrhil

Sep 28, 2012 0:10:38

pg. 95 - Elemental Rift - When a creature makes its save and is returned to play, where does it appear? If it appears in the same square it left, then sustaining the power will promptly rebanish the creature back to the elemental chaos. Observe:

1). Sorcerer casts Elemental Rift centered on a creature, slowing it.

2). On its turn, the slowed creature moves 2, but still ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked into the elemental chaos.

3). On his next turn, the Sorcerer uses a Minor action to sustain the effect.

4). The banished creature manages to make its saving throw and is returned to play in the square it last occupied, which is still within the Zone.

5). Since saving throws are generally made at the end of your turn, the creature promptly ends turn within the Zone and gets sucked back into the elemental chaos.

Provided that this Utility power forces a creature to return to the square it left, using it makes it relatively easy for a Sorcerer to keep one (or more) creatures out of play for as long as he wants. This is an awesome method for neutralizing a boss monster while mopping up his helpers and positioning your party for the kill.

Technically, the creature's turn already ended. That's why it made it's saving throw. It wasn't in the zone at that time, so it did not end its turn in the zone.

#12

Plaguescarred1

Sep 28, 2012 17:30:52

End of Turn Phase is still on your turn so if it reappears in the zone it would be subject to the zone's effect.

pg. 95 - Elemental Rift - When a creature makes its save and is returned to play, where does it appear? I

The power should say so and it doesn't. It definitly need errata and should let it reappear in square adjacent to the zone so it is not slowed and removed from play again.

RC 233 Removed From Play: An effect that removes a creature from play specifies where the creature reappears when it returns to play.