Hi All,
Here is my attempt. Feedback as well as modification and reposting welcome.
Psionicist (or Psion)
"More than a character of any other class, the psionicist is self-contained. Unlike the fighter and thief, he needs no weapons or tools to practice his art. Unlike the priest, he needs no deity. Unlike the wizard, he relies on no out- side energies. His power comes from within, and he alone gives it shape.
The psionicist strives to unite every aspect of his self into a single, powerful whole. He looks inward to the essence of his own being, and gains control of his subconscious. Through extraordinary discipline, contempla- tion, and self-awareness, he unlocks the full potential of his mind."
Equipment
(a) dagger or quarterstaff
(b) psionic focus (a crystal housed in an amulet, staff, rod, wand or ring)
(c) dungeoneer's pack or explorer's pack
Psionics (innate spellcasting)
Starting at 1st level, you know psionics. You cast your spells (Sciences) without verbal, somatic or material components. Further your spells (Sciences) are fixed in your mind and always prepared. You gain spells (spells) as shown on your level advancement table and may choose spells from the Psionicist spell list. You use psionic strength points (PSPs) to cast your spells based on the level of the spell. The number of PSPs you have is indicated on your character advancement table (same progression as spell points on pg 288 of DMG). You regain all of your PSPs after you complete a long rest. Devotions (cantrips) do not use PSPs. You may also augment your spells by using more PSPs to cast the spell at a higher level. You may only cast or argument a level 6, 7, 8 or 9 spell once for each level of spell before completing a long rest. Cantrip and spell progression the same as the Sorcerer class.
Cantrips (sometimes called Devotions)
Misty Step
Calm Emotions
Suggestion
Shatter
Phantasmal Force
Knock
Hold Person
Locate Animals or Plants
Locate Object
Levitate
Lessor restoration (self only)
Alter self
Darkvision
Enlarge / Reduce
Detect thoughts
See invisibility
Mirror Image
Find traps
Protection from Poison
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope trick
Fear
Clairvoyance
Nondetection
Speak with Dead
Spider climb
Blink
Fly
Haste
Sending
Water breathing
Gaseous form
Protection from Energy
Banishment
Mind Blast (as per mind flayer power)
Confusion
Dominate Beast
Polymorph Self
Stone skin
Locate Creature
Dimension Door
Arcane Eye
Phantasmal Killer
Fabricate
Level 6
Arcane Gate
Disintegrate
Mass suggestion
Move earth
True seeing
Wind Walk
Magic jar
Level 7
Etherealness
Forcecage
Planeshift
Project Mind (modified project image)
Reverse gravity
Teleport
Finger of death
Level 8
Telepathy
Dominate Monster
Feeblemind
Power word stun
Glibness
Earthquake
Tsunami
Mind blank
Level 9
Forsight
Weird
Shapechange (self only)
Gate
Time stop
Astral projection
A ring as a casting focus seems way superior to every other focus, which requires the character to hold it in their hand.
Oraibi wrote:
In general I quite like it. Couple of remarks though:
1) You gave the psion two of the "primary" saves, namely constitution and wisdom. Every other class gets one primary and one secondary save. Therefore, as much as I love the psion, you're giving the class a bit of an unfair advantage I think.
2) I think charisma is a better primary spellcasting ability for psions. In this edition, wisdom represents awareness of your surroundings and perceptiveness, whereas charisma is your force of personality and - to me at least - essentially boils down to willpower. So I would make charisma the primary ability for psions and give him proficiency in charisma and constitution saving throws. Would make him more balanced, but it would also be a unique combination of saving throws unlike any other class!
3) Maybe drop the hit points to a d6 for balance reasons?
4) Would you give the psion as many powers knowns (sorry for the 3th edition lingo, that is the psion I am most familiar with) as a sorcerer?
My two cents :-)
MechaPilot wrote:
Logain08 wrote:
Shapechange is already a self-only spell.
Also, I'm unsure about using Wisdom as the casting stat. I think it'd be interesting to allow players to choose from Int, Wis, or Cha, fitting with the fact that they're self-contained.
I think making psionicist a subclass of sorcerer is a great idea!
I think that's iffy seeing as mechanically they don't traditionally have much in common, and sub-classes have limited room for mechanical tinkering.
As for the proposed class there are some issues, first off why not int based?
PaulyB wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
rampant wrote:
Originwise, sorcerer always seemed like a good fit. Mechanically, I think the warlock chassis is a better start. Have three disciplines similar to the patrons (I am thinking telepathy, telekinesis, and pyrokinesis). Swap out eldritch blast for a "mind thrust" that does psychic, bludgeoning, or fire damage (depending on your discipline). That is your "go to" power. I would actually cut it down to a 1/3rd caster, but increase the number subdisciplines (invocations) you get (and none of those subdisciplines would take a spell slot to use).
I always liked the concept of a small number of core powers that are augmented. As opposed to a wizard or someone who researched and meticulously prepared their spells, you only have a couple intuitive "abilities" ("make stuff move," "condense energy into a crystal thingy," "make things resonate with sound," etc), and you learn over time to pour energy into those abilities. I really don't want spell slots or spells if I play a psion.
To this end, I feel like Warlock is not a bad fit. They have a pretty extensive list of features, but very limited spellcasting. Instead of spells, make a smaller list of "powers" (or "sciences" or whatever) that they take initially, and give them resources to augment those instead of increasing spell slots. Make just a few more powers that can be taken at higher level. The Otherworldly Patron might correspond to one's "field" of psionics (telepathy, etc), offering a couple specialized power options, and the Pact Boon could be where one differentiates between Psion (controller caster), Battlemind (tankier, melee), and...another thing. Maybe a summoner with a psychic crystal familiar, idk.
Suddenly it feels like I'm cribbing all these ideas. Did I read a topic about this before...?
Anyway, Sorcerer would work better for me if you also included psionic archetypes for other existent classes. Battlemind for Paladin, Mind Thief or something for Rogue (there was a name for that, right?), uh...et cetera. So you have the one squishy long-range caster type, as well as more nuanced (non-multiclasse) options, but you don't need to cram them all into one class. My big thing is the clumsiness of converting spell slots to power points and spells to augmentable powers on a large scale. That's what I personally want from a psion. If I just wanted the flavor text, I could just play a sorcerer or warlock and reskin.
Thanks for all of your comments and feedback.
Class features (revised)
ChrisCarlson wrote:
I think the spell list and selection system are all wrong for it.
Ok. Here is a bit more fleshed out / refined. I also think it will be easier to comment on when most of the class can be reviewed as a package.
@rampant - I agree that I am not the biggest fan of using the spell system for the psionicist. My instinct is that WotC will not be making another distinct power system for the Psionicist. Essentially the spell system is the power system for 5e. Pretty much everything magical power or effect is linked to a spell directly, or indirectly (Hypnotic Gaze for example). This is why I went this route. I also attempted to follow the DMG guide closely for making a new class, by using existing features and tweeking the flavour.
@chriscarlson and kayal - I thought that also. But when I tried to do it the class felt lacking and I did not want to swap sorcery points into the Psion. When I was playing around with invocations and the warlock I had to agree with @macv12 that the warlock is a natural fit, as you can see in the .pdf. Further I think it makes the class easier to balance as a whole.
@rampant - for Godmind, I feel like a con increase works themeatically with the Psionicist. Ever try concentrating when you are hungry, tired/exhausted or need to go to the washroom? I think there is a mind-body thing that works for the Psionicist here.
Regardless, this is a work in progress. Comment, bash (respectfully of course) or provide alternatives for features or spells. I would love to hear your ideas.
PaulyB wrote:
@chriscarlson - could you elaborate on your issue with the theme? I don't think I understand what part of the class you take issue with. First the class uses the warlock class as chassis to express the archetype, but that is about it, at least the way I look at it, other than awaken mind and thought shield. The class uses Psionic power points, which has been used in some form or another in every addition, so I assume that is not it. Instead of a patron, there are Psionic disciplines, again consistent with most additions. The pact magic is replaced with a psicrystal, which I am not the biggest fan of but I know a lot of people are into them because of 3.5. Further the invocations are reflavored into Psionic modes. Spells were reflavored to be called Sciences, Cantrips reflavoured to be called Devotions. My person issue is with using the same spells as other classes and not having separate powers, but the MM has pretty much confirmed that a separate power structure is not in the cards for the Psionisict.
I guess my central question for you and everyone else is simple: What would make you want to play this class?
Firstly, because it's stepping on the warlock's toes. Classes (if you are going to make a whole new one) should be unique. BTW, one of the warlocks is already a "mentalist". Just FYI...
At first I thought it was going to be some kind of shoehorned warlock subclass (weird, but at least fair). But it didn't even get to be that. It's just stealing all the good parts from it.
Second, on top of that it looks like a better warlock than a warlock.
@chriscarlson -Respectfully, I am sensing from you that you take issue with the Psionicist / Psion in general. It is essentially a science fiction archetype that is interloping in a medival fantasy setting. I am not sure I can find one example of a Psionicist or psion that is truly unique from another class in any edition. The 3.5 Psion is essentially a wizard doppelgänger. In 2nd edition, the telepath stepped on the enchanter's toes, the metabolist on the transmuter's, the seer on the diviner's toes, the psychoportation guy on the conjurer's toes. In 4th edition, the psion was a controller like the wizard with reflavored wizard powers, and some augmentation with no encounter powers, not a lot of difference there, in my opinion.
To be blunt, a Psionic class will not exist in 5e without stepping on toes. It will not be unique because it never has been. It is a modern day sci-fi wizard without a pointy hat.
Also, if you think the class concept is too powerful tell me where, I am open to suggestions. I am in first draft thinking mode, not final draft mode.
I meant the sorceror spell list and selecetion system was a bad fit for the psion, and that it didn't seem a like a class that copuld really support a psion sub-class.
Warlock is actually a decent model but a few things are still bugging me: 1.) Tower of intellect feels wrong, what if instead it grants you and any allies within x feet advantage on any mental saving thow when you save against an affect targeting both/all of you. So basically it only triggers on area affects, but it it helps allies and applies on int, wis , and cha saves. 2.) The the off-kilter pricing on manifesting higher level powers bugs me.
Little history lesson PaulyB: 3e had the biggest problem with psionic x classes. Even then the psion itself and the psychic warrior were actually fairly unique beasties.
PaulyB wrote:
@rampart - thanks for the comments. So tower of iron will seems off and the spell cost. In terms of the spell cost I took that straight from the DMG from the optional spell point system. When I did the math it seemed to be very balanced when considering the PSP / spell point advancement. I am not sure how to keep it balanced with the other casters any other way if we don't use it. I would be open to ideas though.
I will have to think about tower of iron will..so your thinking more of a group effect...what about use your reaction to grant advantage on wisdom saving throws to self or others within 30 ft? I will think more on this one.
@chriscarlson - so too flexible...I think I agree with your comment. I was trying to stick with the spell list and a-la-carte style spell selection but perhaps some restriction is called for. I am considering spell chains, not unlike power chains in 2e. For example in the psychoportation discipline "misty step-blink-dimension door-teleport" you would need to take these powers / spells in order to qualify for the next power in the chain. So to choose dimension door you would first need to take misty step and blink. For the metabolist "alter self-xxx-polymorph-shapechange".
Something to that effect. I think it would work thematically also so a telepath at 7th level isn't like 'I think I will take dimension door now'
What do you think?
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I like it so far, and my 2 cents is that it's hard to really do it with the spells we've been given so far, especially with many spells listed as 'cleric only' or 'wizard only' in many people's minds.
At our table (if someone wanted to play one, of course) I'd take some spells away from the wizard. Spells that sound more 'psionic' to me. At least that way (again, with what we are limited with from the PHB and that new PDF of elemental supplemental spells) a psion/psionicist can feel more unique.
Examples: Reverse Gravity, Telekinisis, Dominate Person/Monster, a few other control spells....And I love the idea of reflavoring spells like fire bolt to do psychic damage. a Psion with a handful of stones should be able to cast 'magic missile' but do bludgeoning damage instead of force damage. Also, giving them some from the warlock and cleric lists is good. Some psions should be able to heal, for example. If they take the 'psychometabolism' path/subclass.
I do think this thread is on the right track, definitely.
I depsise a la carte spell selection in general, but it's especially innappropriate for most psionic characters because most of them have 1-3 defined psychic abilities from which most of their tricks originate, and it takes time and practice to release the more complex and deadly forms of their powers.
One of the reasons I like the pathfinder kineticist as an inspiration for psionic classes is that it does a good job of modeling that, mostly.
Honestly in my mind the ideal method for psionic classes would be to have a small number of cantrip equivalent powers that can be augmented and boosted to have mor eintense or variabel effects, multi-targeting, etc. etc.
HOwevr I understand that it's a pretty big departure from the design practices shown so far and that this early in an edition it can be hard to be innovative.
Some points based on the recent update. Mostly I agree with other posters, but here's my more in-depth reactions.
Warlocks are not exactly "half" casters, but they're not full casters either, for a reason. Lots of at-will options, powerful but very limited spell slots, which recover after a short rest. They have a different play style. Giving a full spellcaster progression on top of all the warlock features is giving too much (a normal warlock can't "up-cast" a spell with a 9th level slot, or prepare different 9th level spells each day). I would maybe give a very small pool of PSPs (similar to ki points or barbarian rages, or the 4e psionics), and some sciences/cantrips, and give each a few substantial augment options. Maybe a 1-point and 3-point option for each, and a further 2 augments made available by your Discipline. Or, each discipline comes with a free science unique to it. You don't have many points per combat, but the regen on a short rest. Then a series of high-level "powers," like Mystic Arcanum. This is closer to the warlock's Pact Magic and thus easier to balance. You also don't have the "I can cast Shield 133 times!" problem that some people dislike about point-based casting.
Also about spells, "no components" is not an insubstantial bonus. This begs to be multiclassed by someone who wants their hands full, and normally normally would have to take the War Caster feat or be careful with their spell choices. It also makes them immune to certain tricks that work against other casters, such as Silence. This makes a kind of sense, but makes them plainly superior to an equivalent sorcerer or wizard. No one likes it when another character can do "my thing," but better, and at no cost. Multiclassing Psion would be obviously better than multiclassing wizard. There should be some cost to this extra functionality. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps psions can "cast" without a focus, but they don't add their proficiency bonus to spell attacks or saves. Their raw mental power needs to be focused and amplified. Allowing the expenditure of points to circumvent this would seem fine to me, or making it a feature of one of the subclasses.
Improved Darkvision: this is a signature thing for warlocks. Psions shouldn't crib this.
Improved Mindthrust: unlike Eldritch Blast, it only hits once. An extra 5-7 damage on that is not really worth an invocation, to me. (Note that I'm not suggesting that you give them EB, as that's also a warlock signature.)
Ethereal jaunt: at-will 30ft teleport as a bonus action seems like a lot. I wouldn't offer this as an invocation. The only other way I know to get this is to be a level 18 wizard and choose Misty Step as your only 2nd-level free spell.
@macv12 - thanks for the great feedback. I made some major revisions to the class based on your post and look forward to more feedback. In summary, PSPs are greatly reduced in line with warlock spell progression. Spells are organized into disciplines, invocations modified, metapsionics (mystic arcanium) added, and a number of other tweeks to moderate the power level. After you post, I could see more clearly that the previous version was overpowed and I understand more clearly that just because warlocks can cast 9th level spells does not mean that they are full casters.
Anyway, I would love to hear the feedback on the changes.
I've been checking each version of your Psionicist and it is shaping up to be a nice take on the class.
@cbejm - thanks. I appreciate the feedback. I also feel like I am getting closer to a playable, fun, and balanced class (of course I am somewhat biased) but I still think there is a ways to go.
I had an insight that vicious mockery should become the signature devotion (cantrip) for the Telepath, renamed as mind thrust, of course. I didn't think a spell attack made sense for the power and the fact that vicious mockery has a wisdom save, does psychic damage, and give disadvantage on the next attack seems a natural fit.
For the kininesist, the signature cantrip could be a refactored firebolt called ballistic attack with bludgeoning damage. Hurl a small object within 15ft of you or something like that. Also you could hurl small weapons, such as a dagger, but the damage would be the same as a ranged attack.
for the metabolist, I am thinking of a reflavored Chill touch, renamed sap life or something with the same function.
I am not sure about psychoportation or clairesentinece. Anyone have any ideas for those?
Since the response was so overwhelming to my last version of the Psionicist, I thought I would revise it and add more.
Psionicist_5e_revised_more.pdf
Introducing your full psionicist/psion class (draft of course). Includes new psionic modes (invocations), attack devotions (cantrips) for all disciplines, complete science list, complete class features for all disciplines and more.
Here are some questions I need your input on:
Would you play this class? if not, why not? what could I change to make it playable for you?
Warlock fans - how balanced is this class vs the regular warlock. Is it a better warlock than the warlock? if so what could I change to tone it down.
DM's - would you allow this class in your campaign? if not, why not? what could I change in the class to change your mind?
Psionics fans - does this feel 'psionic-y' enough? How could I make it better?
Anyone -
How are the psionic modes? any of them too powerful or too weak or bland?
What do you think of the class features? any of them too powerful or too weak?
Any spells/sciences missing or some that should be removed?
What is your opinion about the psicrystal benefits? ok? these were toned done a bit because of the psionicist spell points and no component costs.
What other comments do you have about the class?
Psionicist 5e_revised even more.pdf
Thanks again all for your telepathic feeback and well wishes. As a result I needed to do a little psychic surgery on my psionicist.
Summary:
1) lowered HD to d6,
2) no psionic focus,
3) no ritual versions of psionic sciences (spells).
4) metapsionics was changed to advance psionics, and psionic modes (invocations) was changes to metapsionic enhancements - there are major changes here. It has some simality with the sorcerer metamagic feature but much more restrictive. Instead of the ability to apply to any spell, the psionicist must choose one specific science (spell) to enhance. I think someone on this form mentioned going in this direction eariler so thanks to you. I think/hope this will give the psionicist a considerably more unique identity.
5) Modified (again) Science (spell) list, using AD&D 2nd edition as guidance.
6) New Sciences and Devotions!
7) Improved layout for the class features more in line with caster classes in the PHB, specifically the warlock.
8) Changed discipline (class) features - some of the old psionic modes are now here and some of the old disciplines were modified into metapsionic enhancements.
I feel like the Telepathy, Psychokineics, and Psychoportation are ready to test out and I am missing some features for Psychometabolism and Clairesentience, not sure what should go there.
I am not against normal commenting if that is your preference.
Issues that really stand out right now.
1.) The advanced Psionics seems a bit off. If you're absolutely dead set against allowing them to manifest higher level powers without the wonky restriction then you still need to maintain some fluidity. COnsider an overchannel pool instead of just a series of 1/day powers. The overchannel pool is daily limited, maybe even eats HD/HP, but sinc eit's a pool you can use it in smaller doese to manifest a handful of 6s or dump a big chunk of it to drop a 9 on somebody. This way you could also use the pool to upcast a lower level power for those times you just absolutely have to fireball something so hard it's ancestors can feel it.
2.) Primary disciplines and the number learned. I can sort of see why you want pRimary disciplines sot be a thing form level 1, not how I would have done it but not a huge issue. However I think having your secondary at level 1 is a bit early, and see no reaosn that all psions should get all 5 by level 20.
3.) Find familiar costs 10 gp, the psi-crystal costs 100? Honestly I question the need to have that as a basic feature, and think it worked better as a feat anyway.
mellored wrote:
@rampant - Thanks for the feedback.
Here is my dilemma, the no verbal, somatic or components for spells/sciences in combination with PSPs/spell points is really powerful in and of itself, in your words a better warlock than the warlock...and it pretty much has to be that way to feel like a psionicist. The warlock eventually gets a maximum of 4 slots only all at the same level. A psionicist is considerably more versatile than this. Advanced psionics is simply trying to mimic the restrictions on higher level spells in the same way mystic arcanum does, with a bit more restriction with the primary discipline. I did consider simply letting the psionicist get higher level sciences like a sorcerer or wizard but thought that it would out shine the warlock too much.
I really like the idea of a 'canabalize' feature that uses up hit dice for augmentation or higher level spells, also seems unique and psion-like. Are you thinking psionicists would use HD to simply allow the psionicist to cast 6th level and higher level or would they add damage or other benefits as well? I am also thinking the exhaustion mechanic would work well somewhere in there. Any specific ideas how to implement it? I am thinking a 20th level psionicist has 20d6 HD would work by having a 9th level spell costs 11d6 HD (e.g. 1 time max), and 8th level costs 9d6 HD (e.g 2 times max), 7th costs 6HD (e.g 3 times max), 6th level costs 5HD (e.g 4 times max). Is that sort of what you were getting at?
I would be ok reducing the number of disciplines known, was looking at 2nd edition and going from that. I am thinking 3 is enough and you would learn them at the same time you gain new Cantrips/ devotions. I am not big on the psicrystal, as I mentioned, but thought the 3.5 psion crowd was really into it. I would be ok removing the feature and making it a feat.
What do you think of the metapsionic enhancements?
Well for starters I wasn't gonna extend the additional daily limit to 5th level, just your 6+ model.
A lot depends on how thigns work, for example if you still pay all or part of the PSP cost then I'd say only burn 1-2 HD to allow the over channel. If you're paying for 6+s purely in HD then a scaling model is appropriate.
As far as the meta-psionics stuff I like the idea, but the stacking rules are a bit concenring, potent and efficacy especially.
What about a hybrid? You get one daily science (like mystic arcanum) or overchannel free at 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level. Then for additional overchanneling or casting at levels 6+ is simple. You pay the cost of a science manifested at 5th level plus 2HD for each level above 5th, 2HD at 6th, 4HD at 7th etc.
Thoughts?
For metapsionics, what if I limited the number of enhancements to 2 per science/spell or devotion/cantrip. Further, limit efficacy it to a max of +1, and potency to a max of d8 for cantrips/devotions and a d10 for sciences. This could tone down the stacking issues. You could also spread out benefits to a few sciences. Like have one science that works agains creatures with resistance to psychic damage, one more blasty power, one that effects more people or has a greater distance etc.
It's not so much the power as the language involved is a bit choppy, I'm not entirely sure how they work.
Hmmm. Ok, I think I just had a breakthough. Tell me what you think of these changes.
Psionicist 5e_version_6ish.pdf
Psicrystal is gone, disciplines are reduced as discussed. Enhancements are refined, only enhance sciences, and restricted to two per science. Discipline features are now generic to all psionicists and essentially make devotions (cantrips) more powerful. I think this is starting to have a very unique identity. It feels quite far away from a warlock, and I don't think it overshadows the warlock either.
Anyway, I appreciate the feedback. I wish more people would pipe up and tell me what they like or dislike about it. It is really the only way to make this a good class.
More revisions. I think I was overly wed to the warlock chassis.
Advanced psionics is gone. Normal spellcaster progression with half spell points (more PSPs) that refresh on a short or long rest as before. I have blended the warlock with the sorcerer/wizard advancement. I have also added an overchannel/canabalize feature to allow for more casting above 5th level.
I also added mind sight and telepathy back as metapsionic enhancements because I think a telepath without these options doesn't make sense.
Since playing around with the Psychic warrior, I think I have made this way too complicated.
I am thinking of abandoning the warlock template and moving back to a wizard template. Taking the metapsionic enhancements and putting them as general class features all psi initiate and simply have a wizard with spell points and disciplines.
Psionics is spellcasting after all.
Thoughts?
I am thinking of a bard spell progression up to 22 spells.
Ok. Here it is.
My only issue is the class features. I am just not sure how to make them work.
I am somewhat against class features for each specialtiy of psionicist. So I have generic ones for all regardless of speciality. I know there seems to be too many but some are quite weak. Any ideas or feedback would be appreciated.
I think the answer to my issue with class features is feats. I think that keeping the class features generic for all Psionicists could work if the more specialized abilities like mind sight and telepathic communication, for telepathy are moved to feats instead of class features.
I think this is the end of the line for this creative project, I am running out of steam. Here is my 'final' version. Please fee free to co-opt and use in anyway. Reposts with modifications are welcome also.
I am still open to your feedback and sugestions. Just a note, things like telepathy and mindsight would become feats. As well as other psionic things like crystals etc.
5e_Psionicist_version9.pdf
I was mistaken...after reading the guidlines for classes it seems discipline features are needed.
Here it is:
Also, if at least one of you who reads this comments it would be appreciated...even if you say you hate it.
I love it, PaulyB.
It's easily the best, most thought out, player-made classes in 5e, so far. In fact, I might roll one up to use as an NPC this weekend. For our table, though, I keep spells that scream 'PSION!' out of the wizard list. Like telekinesis, reverse gravity, and dominate person. I allow other casters to use dominate animal, but IMO, the will it takes to dominate a sentient being requires psionic ability.
Possibly my favorite thing is allowing the PC/NPC to choose WIS or CHA. More classes/races in 5e should do that. I liked how 4e did it, for some classes, and I liked how later racial entries said things like "+2 to CHA, and +2 to either CON or STR".
I'm curious, maybe I just didn't notice yet, but have you looked through the decent-sized list of new spells in that free Elemental Eveil (or whatever) PDF? Some of those would work for a psionic class too, with minimal reflavoring.
PS: For 'Ballista Attack', why does it have to be bludgeoning? I mean, for a rock, sure...But what about glass shards, or nails?
Thanks seti. Appreciate the feedback.
As far as new spells from elemental evil, not throughly. I did add catapult to the psychokinetics sciences list. I think you are right that spells could be added from there. I think getting the spell list right is key for the class. I went through a lot of iterations but there is room to improve.
I prefer 2e psionics flavour but sciences could be called powers and devotions called wild talents if 3.5 is more your thing.
I was going to make a random wild talents table also.
Basically this: add you con, wis and cha modifiers at first level, this is your percentage chance to get a wild talent. Role d100. You must role your percentage or under to get a wild talent.
Then role a 1d4 and gain one psionic devotion/cantrip: mind thrust, mind link, ballistic attack or minor telekinesis.
As far as ballistic attack goes I just wanted to make it simple and I think you point makes sense. I think piercing and bludgeoning would probably be the most common and I think slashing is possible.
The one thing I found difficult was the lack of attack powers for clairsentience and psychoportation, especially at lower levels. This is way 2 disciplines at 1st.
verfirst This is what they wrote about modifing wizard classes.
- Wizards have the full spellcasting progression; any changes to the Spellcasting feature will have a big impact on the class.
- Wizards have the longest spell list and the broadest selection of spells to choose from each day, thanks to their spellbooks. Anything that further increases their versatility in this respect should be approached with caution.
- The Arcane Traditions serve three purposes, which you should consider when creating new ones: encouraging the casting of certain kinds of spells, providing utility that is unique to specialists of a particular kind of magic and that cannot be found within spells, and subtly altering the play style of the wizard without fundamentally drawing the thrust of the class away from spellcasting.
- In terms of the Psionicist I created I think this direction makes sense, although I have said that before...
- First, Psionics or Spellcasting is not dramatically changed except using spell points and no verbal, somatic or material components. To balance this disciplines and restricted spell lists were introduced
- Versatility and flexibility overall was increased with spell points and no verbal, somatic or material components but again balanced by disciplines and restricted spell selection.
- Class features aren't unique, because most are re-skinned abilities of appropriate level from other classes, but they do encourage certain types of sciences or powers and subtly alter the play style without drawing the thrust away from the sciences or powers / Psionics. I think this makes sense because the core of the psionicists identity comes from the powers.
I was also noted that the limited number spell list for the bard, sorcerer and warlock is a major restriction for the class. I think this direction for the Psionicist is appropriate from a balance and story perspective.
- The warlock spell list was carefully cultivated to avoid including spells that might become annoying if cast too often at the table. If you want to grant a warlock access to a new spell, but are concerned that its frequent casting could be disruptive to the game, consider creating an eldritch invocation that enables the use of the same magic on a more limited basis (by requiring a rest between uses, for instance).
I do have some concerns about the use of spell points to spam certain spells and the impact at the table. Because I have moved away from invocations I think that revising the spell lists to avoid this will be crucial. I have all ready heard someone talk about using the Shield spell like 30 times in a row and how annoying that could be.
Any suggestions out there to address this?
My one thought was a half PSP advancement with recovery on short or long rest. This could reduce spamming somewhat.
It is not a new version, just some tweeks to wording and the ordering to make it more clear and added spells from elemental evil player's companion.
Ok. Tweeked the wording some more. Added a section about psionics and magic, a section about 'creating a psionicist', the psionic blast spell (revised power word, kill) and I added varient rules for psychic contests and wild talents.
Again, feel free to comment if you didn't already.
What are people's thoughts on a 'contact' mechanic to replace concentration for sciences / powers in telepathy only. It would be a throw back to 2e.
Essentially this. You gain 'contact' as a bonus cantrip/devotion. It is a bonus action and allows you to make contact with the minds of a number of creatures equal to your wisdom or charisma modifier. The target must make a saving throw vs wisdom to avoid this affect. This power has no other effect than to create a bridge between the target and psionicst's mind that allows other powers. If the Psionicist hits a target its one of the following powers/sciences : mind thrust, ego whip, Id insinuation, psychic crush or psionic blast (the 5 attack modes), the Psionicist may use his or her bonus action to gain contact and the target fails the saving throw automatically. Contact is required before the Psionicist can attempt to use any telepathic science/power other than the 5 attack modes. Contact is maintained, in lieu of, and broken in the same manner as concentration for a wizards spell. If contact is broken, the science's effect if it required concentration ends.
I don't think it would be too onerous and it adds a bit more flavour.
Thoughts and feedback?
I'll be testing this in a 5e campaign in a few weeks, and am very excited to see how it works out. I'll be a 5th-level Psion with a primary specialization in Telepathy and a second discipline in Clairsentience. It felt good during and after character creation; I felt like a psion. I did have a couple of questions, though.
1) I saw that they do not require foci or material components. There was some talk of them not needing verbal, somatic, etc. components, but I did not see them mentioned in the current edition. Did you still intend them to be required? I don't think a psion would need them, since his powers come from his mind; but it might be too unbalanced not to have them.
2) ... I don't remember what it was. I'll post again when I remember.
As to the the contact cantrip idea, I think it sounds good. I like the different flavor it gives, and it seems to fit with the idea of a character. A couple of questions or thoughts, though:
1) Would the target(s) be aware that contact was attempted? Because then the target would get a warning before the actual spell (say, Detect Thoughts) was cast, and would have time to (conceivably) get a defense up. Normally there is no warning until the actual spell is cast.
2) It would eat up at least one extra turn in combat (maybe more) if wanting to use other spells on other targets or not wanting to start with those 5 attack spells. And losing turns could reduce their effectiveness in combat.
3) Would have Con as your base saving throw?
4) Would it require line-of-sight on each target? Or would it just have a radius, maybe with the standard "blocked by 1 ft of wood, 1 in of metal, thin plate of lead, etc." modifier?
Thank you for all your work on this, PaulyB.
Thanks Myrmidon009.
No requirement for verbal, somatic or material components is mentioned in the first sentence under 'psionics (Innate spellcasting)'. With that said I think it could have been written more explicitly. I will update this in the next iteration to improve clarity.
For contact - the general idea was that a target would know if they were contacted. They would have a sense that their mind was 'open' and in contact with another mind. This would give the target some sense that future attacks are coming but nooo special advantage against these attacks. I am not sure if I wrote this but the idea is that as an action a contacted target could attempt ejection of the foreign mind. Save vs Wis.
Con and Wis or Cha would be the base saving throws.
Contact is meant to be a bonus action, so there is no issue with the action economy of targeting other creatures. However, currently it does require a saving throw so it will give a creature two saving throws....this could be an issue now that I am writing it. Otherwise It does eat away at some of the PCs action economy because it uses the bonus action. Which is ok for me given the no V,S and M are required.
I was thinking line of sight with the restrictions you mentioned because a radius is sorta like a mind sight type benefit which is quite powerful. I could go either way though.
I would be open to an revisions or ideas you have. For whatever reason, I don't have a clear vision of what I want for contact other than it to feel like 2e and work with 5e mechanics.
Ok, here is an idea.
Contact
Version 2 -
Contact
Intelligence of 1 or greater...
Version 3 -
Contact
Ok, I think I am getting closer. This issue is that having contact as a prerequisite it interacts with so many aspects of the game and could have unintended consequences. Range implications is one example as well as number of targets. It must work in harmony with all sciences (spells) which is a bit tricky.
Version 4 -
Contact
Ok, version 5 is better. All telepathy sciences/spells don't have a range greater than 150 feet except sending and telepathy which are unlimited.
Version 5 -
Contact
I generally like where the idea ended up. I did wonder what you meant by,
PaulyB wrote:
PaulyB I see in this latest version you've removed the ability for short rests to allow you to regain PSPs and they are now a daily resource. 5th edition is balanced around 2 short rests a day. Have you considered cutting down the PSPs handed out by a third and making it a short rest mechanic rather than a daily mechanic?
Have you also considered having all psionic abilities be at-will and the PSPs augment them? Or are you pretty happy with using spells as powers?
JohnLynch wrote:
@myrmidon009 - My thinking is that contact would be a 'varient' only. It does require a bonus action for powers were other disciplines don't.
My purpose was to give a more 2e feel with this option.
I also like the flavour quite a bit, though I am biased. I am not sure it overly impacts balance though. Bonus actions seem to be for relatively minor enhancements and given that this class is balanced relative to a wizard it think it would work ok. If you are up for it I would like to hear your feedback on using vs not. My sense is that there would be minimal impact for the first 10 levels. I also think that aside from counterspell and misty step that most casters arnt using the bonus action all that much. I would guess that is true of most classes that don't use two weapons.
My concern is limiting the number of people that can be contacted. I think it needs to increase to modifier plus proficiency bonus to balance at higher levels. Also I think the target needs to know who is contacting them and roughly from where because essentially you could be at a party and contact someone, then kill them with mind thrust and they wouldn't know or anyone else. In addition the duration needs to be changed to until broken.
I agree the quote you mention is clunky. I was trying to figure out a way to have the psion establish contact multiple times without losing contact that is already established.
Version 6 -
Contact
New power -
Switch Personality
So I had a chance to test this class this weekend and it played fine. It felt like a psion. I was playing a human psion (at 4 level now) with a primary discipline of psychokinesis, secondary psychoportion.
My sciences/spells were minor telekinesis (Mage hand), ballistic attack (modified fire bolt), minor illusion (sound only), feather fall, catapult, earth tremor, levitate and misty step.
Here is a snap shot for flavour of some cool things that happened. So we were in a dungeon (of course) and we fighting 'the' bad guy and it was a large room and he was up on a balcony. So my character was levitating while hurling (ballistic attack) broken tiles and hunks of glass because that was all that was available. Then the bad guy threw some potion at me and hit, I lost concentration and felt to the ground. I am not sure how much more psionic-y a character could feel.
With the spell points, subtle casting, and the slightly reflavored spells I didn't remotely feel like a wizard, not even for a second. In summary, this version of the psion felt and played like I thought a psion should.
Some things I have noted that are an issue, more so at later levels, but still worth noting. I will post my revisions soon. But needless to say spell/power/science distribution across levels is a problem. For example there are currently no 9th level sciences for the discipline of psychokinesis. There are 'dead' levels of sciences/spells for most disciplines. Also some disciplines such a psychoportation have few spells at low levels. There are also issues with the pace that psions learn sciences/spells.
Ok, so here is the revised version....quite a bit has changed here
1) Psionic Mastery (Level 18 feature) is replaced with a toned down version of Tower of Iron Will, similar to the Barbarian Feature but for Wisdom not Strength. I think the flavor makes sense for the psion. I am finding it interesting how much I have drawn from the barbarian class that seems to work. The thinking here is that with that many spell points at will powers for 1st and 2nd level abilities are not particularily useful, because the psion can almost essentially do this anyway...which could be a bit of an issue with the class/spell points in general especially at high levels.
2) Number of Cantrips/devotions was reduced. This is pure instinct, it just seemed like the class had too many. "Devotions Known Table"
3) The progression of learning spells/sciences has been smoothed out. When I played my character this seemed to be an issue, too many lower level powers, and the rate at which you gained them was annoying. So they were distributed more evenly accross levels. "Sciences Known Table"
4) The spell/science list has been reorganized to show the gaps in spells and sciences accross levels. This is probably one of the biggest weaknesses for the class as a whole in my opinion. Fortunately, with the number of spells we have in the player's handbook I don't see this as too big of an issue. It a power is needed, a quick reflavor of an existing spell and potentially altering the type of damage can take you a long way, as I think I have shown.
5) the contact varient rule was added and tweeked a little more. The main issue is that it is hard to charm someone if they know you are an intruder in their mind. So they now 'forget' they are contacted for the duration of the science.
Other than that there are some other minor tweeks to again improve clarity (I hope).
Please let me know what you think?
Any thoughts on a generic 'link' power, based on the contact power, as a prerequisite for all psionic powers?
I also feel like this class is maybe missing something but I can't put my finger on it.