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| #1VerklemptomaniacOct 06, 2014 11:34:44 | Before we get started - yes, yes, I know, a lot people really, really hated the 4e minion rules, in large part because the idea of high-level "1 HP" monsters didn't work for them. It worked for me and the groups I played with, but to each their own. But before you react like you're a fey vampire and I'm asking you to hold my cold iron cross for a minute, hear me out.
Minions/mooks address a specific combat design issue with pre-4e D&D: because of the nature of the HP mechanic, it was very difficult to have encounters with large numbers of relatively weak enemies that didn't turn into a giant slog for the players and a bookkeeping nightmare for the GM. (There was also the problem that enemies weak enough to throw at players in big numbers were too weak to meaningfully threaten them, but 5e bounded accuracy/defenses/damage deals with that issue.) D&D should be able to accomidate Gimli and Legolas cutting through hordes of orcs while barely breaking stride, or Conan dispatching palace guards with one mighty swing of his blade.
4e minions tried to address this, and it worked pretty well, but the mechanics behind it rubbed some people the wrong way. So the question is this: is there a way to achieve the same design goal (non-slog encounters with large numbers of weak enemies) within the bounds of the 5e system?
My modest proposal:
Optional Mook Rules As your character advances in level, their skills advance to a degree that their blows can overwhelm the defenses of lesser foes, striking motral blows when they connect.
Starting at 5th level, PCs have become skilled enough to dispatch weaker enemies with a single successful attack or spell. For any enemy whose CR is 1/5th or less than the PCs level (CR<=1 at level 5, CR<=2 at level 10, etc), if the player succeeds on an attack roll for an attack that would deal damage, or the monster fails on a save against a spell that would deal damage, that enemy is reduced to 0 HP. (This does not apply if the damage type for the attack/spell is one that the enemy has resistance/immunity to.)
Thus, at fifth level, you could throw a larger number of goblins/kobolds/orcs/hobgoblins/bandits/etc at players, have them still be threats due to bounded accuracy/defenses/damage, but greatly speed up the encounter and reduce the amount of bookkeeping the DM has to do. If you wanted to have the players fight tougher orcs, you could use the rules that are (hopefully) coming in the DMG to scale up orcs to higher CR, to represent Orc Veterans/Orc Beserkers/Orc Knights of Grumush/Orc HGH Cheats/etc.
This would also facilitate allowing players to feel like they're playing characters from fantasy stories, where the main characters easily dispatch most mooks with a single blow, and only have protracted fights with more meaningful adversaries.
Obviously, this doesn't fit for every style of game - I'm not saying mook rules should be core. But as an optional module, I think they would be a useful tool to allow DMs a bit more freedom to create epic, fun encounters with relatively weak opponents.
Thoughts? |
| #2spelleyOct 06, 2014 12:03:05 | Seems like a fine-enough rule. Obviously you might want to ignore the "Mook" rule for things like lower-CR Ogres or other things that are meant to be sacs of HP but since this is a DM-side module, it's easy enough to adjudicate when it is appropriate. This is basically a codified "fudging the HP" that many DMs do. Looks good |
| #3VerklemptomaniacOct 06, 2014 12:36:05 |
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| #4Brock_LandersOct 06, 2014 12:38:39 | Just throw large numbers of low HD monsters at a higher level party. |
| #5ZaranBlackOct 06, 2014 12:45:23 | Generally damage increases as you level right? I would change it so if you do damage to a mook and the blow doesn't kill them , make them bloodied. If you hit a bloodied mook they die. No math needed. |
| #6Slyck314Oct 06, 2014 12:49:03 | I've been using minimum HP and maximum HP for Mooks vs. Leaders. |
| #7FFSAAOct 06, 2014 13:04:30 | I pretty much disagree with everything you said on it working for you or Gimli and Legolas hacking through hundreds of orcs being anything but retarded. Conan never did in the original material or Robert Jordan's btw.
Regardless your system has a problem because the game wasn't meant to work that way. Low damage AE attacks become vastly more useful than they would otherwise be. For instance Gimli is still pretty much screwed with only being able to kill as many as he can get his ax on... unless he is a battle master and his sweeping attack means he can kill twice as many enemies. Likewise Gandalf's thunderwave went from being a useful CC ability with a damage rider to being a 15 foot cube of death in a level 1 spell slot. Warlock's Eldritch Blast would become even better than it already is. |
| #8CCSOct 06, 2014 13:18:10 | You don't need additional rules to do what you want. Simply look at the characters that are being played. Set your pseudo minions hp =/< than the min. Damage the characters produce. Min. 1 hp + con bonus pet hd. |
| #9VerklemptomaniacOct 06, 2014 13:32:46 |
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| #10VerklemptomaniacOct 06, 2014 13:43:41 |
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| #11BumamgarOct 06, 2014 14:20:35 | Frankly this simply isn't necessary. Damage scales in such a way that at high levels, those low level opponents go down in one hit anyway without any changes required.
For example, the iconic low-level baddie, the Kobold (CR 1/8), has 2d6-2 hp, for a range of 1 - 10 hp (average 5). Clearly for a hoard of them, you'd save time and go with average.
At 1st level, assuming a 16 in primary stat, players do a minimum of 4 damage. By level 4 it would be safe to assume an 18 in primary stat, for a minimum of 5 damage. So, there you go, by 4th level 1 hit = 1 kill for kobolds.
Ok, how about something a bit tougher, the good old Hobgoblin (CR 1/2). They have 2d8+2 hp, for a range of 4 - 18 hp, (average 11). Again, hoard = average.
By 8th level, 20 in primary stat will be the norm for a +5 or minimum of 6 damage, so that's not quite one hit, one kill, but for many classes their minimum damage will be quite a bit higher. For example, a ranger will have +1d6 Hunter's Mark, you might have a +1 weapon, a rogue will have 4d6 sneak damage (as long as an ally is within 5'), your fighter or barbarian might be using a weapon with two damage dice, resulting in most characters doing a minimum of anywhere from 7 - 10 damage, and clearly their average damage will be well above 11, meaning most of the time one hit = 1 kill even for Hobgoblins by 8th level.
Given we don't have a DMG yet, I'm not sure what options there will be for items that boost damage beyond the basic +1 weapons we've already seen, so its hard to extrapolate beyond this, but it's quite likely that minimum damage will continue to creep up as the characters level, although clearly not as quickly as it does during the prime attribute boosting lower levels. So maybe there is never a point when it becomes easy to mow down CR 1 or 2 creatures, but this is more to do with the way CR scales in 5e than anything else. Most of what would be generally used as 'mooks' are < CR 1 in 5e.
Your proposed scale is massively overpowered. There is no way characters at 5th level should be able to 'mow down' CR 1 creatures or that 10th level characters should mow down CR 2 creatures. The problem here is that CR really doesn't mean the same thing that it did in prior editions. CR 1 creatures are Death Dogs, Specters, Bugbears and Harpys. CR 2 creatures are Ogres, Gargoyles, Ettercaps and Wyrmling Dragons. These are not 'mook' level monsters in any edition, and while I wouldn't expect these creatures to challenge a 10th level party, they shouldn't be one-hit wonders either. A pack of 10 Gargoyles should make a 10th level party concerned, and a swarm of 100 should be terrifying! |
| #12SaelornOct 06, 2014 14:31:54 |
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| #13BumamgarOct 06, 2014 15:04:19 | Good point, I was using minimum damage to make a point, but the more accurate situation would be for the DM to assume average damage for hoard type encounters, in which case, as you point out, characters are more than capable of one-hitting most monsters < 1 CR by 8th level. |
| #14BW0222Oct 06, 2014 15:21:47 | I fail to see the point of this.
First, why do you expect lots of low CR creatures in higher level combats? If you have some 5th-level PCs fighting say a hill giant (105 hit points), what is the point of putting in a bunch of CR 1 goblins?
Second, why do you need special rules? Wouldn't any 5th-level character mow down a CR 1 creature without thinking about it? A quasit is 7hp, a goblin boss is 21 hit points. Most characters would destroy one in a single action -- often a single attack. As would any area spell. When fireballing the (105hp) hill giant... any CR 1 or lower creature would likely die in the collateral. Even if PCs just ignored the goblins... the damage would be minor.
Third, don't the low-level creatures just waste time in initaitve? Lots of pointless tacking of creatures through initiative, attack roles, likely missing, minor damage, lots of pointless saving throws, etc. Adding 10 goblins to an initiative of a hill giant and four PCs, could easily at 50% or more time to each initiaitive if the PCs don't immediate clear them? What if the PCs don't have AoE damaging spells? What if something bad happens like fog, darkness, and folks have to waste round after round of initiaitve on stupid creatures who can't really affect the combat anyway? Is killing ten goblins along with the hill giant worth an extra 10 minutes of combat?
Forth, doesn't this just mean that spellcasters (with AoE damaging spells) are going to rule anyway? Do players have to carry around wants of minion clearing (aka fireballs)?
Fifth, exactly what is to be accomplished here? Players aren't going to get any special satistifcation knowing that they have special rules or that you'll specifically put "fodder" in encounters for them to kill. They'll know they were fodder. They will feel no more accompishment in them dying instantly than them having 17hp and (likely) dying from one hit. Would you feel a sense of accomplishment at a boxing match if they said "Any adult who punches a child under ten, wins the match automatically?" No... most adults would just say... "Why are children in an adult division?" or "Why don't you just rule they run away rather than wasting time?"
Sixth, the entire premise that PCs have to hack through waves of NPCs is unrealistic. You mention Tolkien. I suggest you reread the books. You are talking major battles against armies. At the end of which, Legolas and Gimli had counts in the dozens. Such battles are not what D&D combat rules can realistically run. Anything more than 15-20 creatures in initiative... and combat slows to a crawl. Sorry, this only exists in video games where computers can do the math.
Seventh, even if your goal is to have major battles where PCs slaughter lots of low-level monsters (disregarding how long it takes)... then the idea is to presumably not do this that frequently. If something is to be special and memorable, then it needs to be rare. Something which only happens a few times during the campaign. And if it is going to happen... just follow the current rules. Have fiftey goblins attack some 6th-level characters as part of a battle. They'll die just as easily following the current rules as adding special rules to one-hit kill them. And if one in five doesn't die instantly when hit by a sword... it will add some realism to the fight. |
| (Reply to #10)CCS |
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| #16setiOct 06, 2014 16:01:00 | People who liked 4e want minions. People who didn't...Don't.
The key word in the OP's post is optional.
There should be an option for minion rules...Too bad it wasn't in the MM, where it'd belong.
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| (Reply to #11)Verklemptomaniac |
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| #18QmarkOct 06, 2014 16:27:57 | Yet again, I have to point out that 1HP does not have to mean "explodes into hamburger when sneezed on". |
| #19FFSAAOct 06, 2014 16:58:47 |
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| #20IllithidbixOct 06, 2014 17:41:21 | CR/5 = Instant Death on a successful attack roll? - seems fine enough as a house rule. Having it work with all spells, is potentially more problematic.
Some creatures seem more appropriate than others, for some reason I have more of a problem with Allosaurus, Elephants and Ankylosaurus being one-shotted than I do with Ogres.
Poking the Maths Of course the design of Minons in 4E was that they had competative AC and Attack rolls (if somewhat low, fixed damage). This concept doesn't exist quite so much in 5E, where you're overall going to hit more as you level.
The CR 2 Ogre for example has a mere AC: 11 and 59 HP.
The Level 10 fighter who can now one shot him and very probably at least +9 to hit (+4 Prof. +5 ability score)... so not roll a 1. He can pull out a pair of daggers to get a free extra attack as a bonus action (no issue with very low damage), And at level 11 he gets his 3rd attack (so 4 with duel weilding)... so that's easily 4 dead ogres/turn unless he rolls a 1 somewhere down the line.
The ogres are now now squishier than a goblin with AC: 15 and 7HP.
In the light of this, I would consider it more a ... set piece to throw in occasionally, and slightly jiggle the stat blocks so minons gain AC perhaps? |
| #21BumamgarOct 06, 2014 17:43:17 |
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| #22grendel111111Oct 06, 2014 17:44:48 | Part of the problem with minion type things in 5th is that HP is the measure of surviving combat. The limited AC means when you are high level you will hit most of the time. So if you hit on any attack and kill on any hit then you can have the players just remove mooks equal to their number of attacks each round, and skill the whole rolling phase, which is what takes up teh time you want to get rid of. |
| #23setiOct 06, 2014 18:31:30 | I agree that some creatures should never be minions. Dragons for example. Incedentally, in 4e creatures like giants, dragons, etc. were never minions. The closest I remember to that was the cyclops guard minion.
But zombies, goblins, kobolds, skeletons, humanoid scum/bandits, etc, etc. should have the option. One way to handle it in 5e without 'ruining' the game (like some of you think) would be to make them a simple 50/50 to hit...Roll with no mods. They die on a hit, they die on a failed save (again, 50/50). Otherwise, they are unharmed. They do the same avg. damage as any normal creature of their type. This would be great for bigger fights, and fun zombie apocalypse holloween one shots, for sure. XP-wise, they could be worth 1/4 of what a normal creature of the same type is worth, or just use DM judgement...the whole encounter is worth X, regardless of number of minions. |
| #24Tony_VargasOct 06, 2014 18:53:32 | 5e's bounded accuracy does address half of the longstanding issue with massed, much-lower-level foes: they remain a threat, since they're not stuck hitting only on a natural 20.
The "1 hp" aspect of 4e minions isn't needed in 5e, either: ordinary low-CR monsters tend to have such low hps that characters can routinely dispatch them in a single hit.
Where 5e could benefit from some sort of 'mook' rule would be in making the lower-CR critters /less/ vulnerable, not more. Adopting the 4e-ism that an attack must be successful to damage a minion, you could rule that any hit (or failed save) kills the Mook-designated monsters, but that any miss or successful save /doesn't/, no matter how much damage it might have done had damage been rolled.
The benefits are two-fold: 1) radically low-CR monsters stick around a bit longer, even in the face of area attacks and 2) you speed things up by omitting rolling & adding up damage.
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| #25BumamgarOct 07, 2014 5:23:45 |
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| #26GriffordOct 07, 2014 10:16:57 | The following will be guaranteed 1-hit kills once you cap out your primary, but they do more than 1 point of damage on a hit, i.e. decent mooks:
Blight, twig |
| #27dmgorgonOct 07, 2014 10:34:23 | Why do we need an option for the assignment of 1 hp?
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| #28RastapopoulosOct 07, 2014 14:46:40 |
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| #29Azzy1974Oct 07, 2014 15:23:42 | What I don't understand is why people that don't want to use this option are doing threadcrapping here.
Look, if you're not interested in something that someone posts, then ignore it—not everything that someone posts has to meet with your approval. Just stow your needless griping and threadcrapping, and just let those that are interested in what's been posted provide feedback and constructive criticism. Otherwise, you're just trolling and bringing the community down. Don't do that. |
| #30Cyber-DaveOct 07, 2014 15:28:48 | Why not just use minion/brute rules? Minions roll minimum hp on their hit dice and are worth 1/2 exp; brutes roll maximum and are worth 1.5x exp. That is what I plan to do... |
| #31ORC_RagnarOct 08, 2014 1:48:27 | I have removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
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| #32UchawiOct 08, 2014 3:20:40 | The benefit of minions is bookeeping for a large amount of creatures so you don't have to track hit points, so it makes sense to me to make a similar rule in 5E based of hit points. I would throw out the 1 hp for all minions, and make it some type of formula. So if a creature has X hit points, then you can set a hit point threshold of Y, where all damage is ignored unless it exceeds Y. You will have to account for area damage, etc. It will take some trial and error to establish the right feel, so minions are not as obvious as the 1 hp version represented in 4E. Or just use the 4E rules as an option if you like it. |
| (Reply to #23)FFSAA |
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