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Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Karnos Mar 10, 2015 6:29:51	With Frostbite and Thunderclap, evocation wizards finally have an actual evocation cantrip that works with their ability "Potent Cantrip". No longer will they be forced to use conjuration cantrips just to benefit from this ability.
#2 mellored Mar 10, 2015 6:34:57	Where?
(Reply to #2) Karnos	mellored wrote:
#4 mellored Mar 10, 2015 7:18:49	So frostbite is just as superior vicious mockery...
#5 AaronOfBarbaria Mar 10, 2015 7:20:52	Not that I felt there was ever a problem with evokers using conjuration spells to get the benefit of their feature... but those are a pair of pretty cool spells that I am happy to see (and the other spells are pretty cool too, especially happy to see a pair of old favorites of mine in Aganazzar's scorcher and Melf's minute meteors)
#6 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 7:23:19	mellored wrote:
#7 Karnos Mar 10, 2015 7:25:41	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #4) AaronOfBarbaria	mellored wrote:
#9 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 7:29:48	Not to mention which saves are being targetted, respectively. Cuz that also matters. And who can cast the spell. Which class(es) have access to any particular spell matters too. [Edit: Partially ninja'ed!]
#10 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 7:41:10	Frostbite Evocation cantrip Casting Time: 1 action Range: 60 feet Components: V, S Duration: Instantaneous You cause numbing frost to form on one creature that you can see within range. The target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 1d6 cold damage, and it has disadvantage on the next weapon attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn. The spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).
#11 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 7:36:31	And let's not forget how awesome it is to be able to insult someone to death! Any ol' spellcaster can shoot energy beams. Bards kill with their words...
#12 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 7:39:47	True. VM also gets points for visceral imagery. It is just a cooler spell overall (no pun intended). Vicious mockery gives frostbite the cold shoulder when it comes to which spell is superior (pun intended). I guess wizards and their cronies will just have to chill out to the Bard's cool rhythms. (I could go on like this for hours)
#13 mellored Mar 10, 2015 7:43:43	Kalani wrote:
#14 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 7:48:11	Do you find yourself experiencing even a little bit of griminess after having so disingenuously tried to claim that 1 point of damage more is a "significant" increase? Because it's also true that a guy with a 12 strength does 100% more damage with a punch as someone with a 10 strength. So that 12 strength guy is obviously very scary. I mean, 100% increase!? That's so broken powerful, amIright?
#15 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 8:07:26	mellored wrote:
#16 RCanine Mar 10, 2015 8:13:20	GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS This isn't the 90s anymore. If you're talking about something on the Internet, post the URL. Like this: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/145542/Elemental-Evil-Players-Companion-5e
#17 mellored Mar 10, 2015 8:03:52	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#18 mellored Mar 10, 2015 8:10:26	Kalani wrote:
#19 mellored Mar 10, 2015 8:11:43	RCanine wrote:
#20 IxidorRS Mar 10, 2015 8:13:21	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #16) Miladoon	RCanine wrote:
#22 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 8:21:40	Have you factored in resistance into your calculations... VM is resisted far less frequently than FB. There are several other factors you are ignoring in your calculations - all of which are relevant. Sample Size: How large is the difference between percentage points in the range. A small sample size results in massive fluctuations in percentage with little gain. A large sample size results in smaller fluctuations in percentage across the range. Value compared against all other possible values: IOWs, comparing the d4 and d6 against all other possible damage values, including d10, d12, and 8d6. Significant 29 vs. 40: +13 Insignificant 2.5 vs 3.5: +1 Both numbers are 40% larger in their respective sample sizes, but when compared against all possible damage numbers - +1 is largely irrelevant, while +13 is always relevant.
(Reply to #18) Coredump00	mellored wrote:
#24 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 8:54:02	mellored wrote:
#25 mellored Mar 10, 2015 8:45:18	Kalani wrote:
#26 Orethalion Mar 10, 2015 9:02:02	Kalani wrote:
#27 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 9:06:18	May I ask why you would choose a *suboptimal* method of attack if given any other choice? The only reason someone would attack with an unarmed strike is if they are a monk, have the tavern brawler feat, or they have no alternative. Only in the latter a situation would such a small difference in damage become relevant. The same holds true in respect to this discussion. Why would the wizard cast *frostbite* when they have the option of casting *firebolt* - if damage is their motivating factor and they have the choice? The bard doesn't have a choice unless they dip Warlock/magic initiate for *frostbite. This results in an opportunity cost to access the other* spell. The wizard doesn't have a choice between VM or FB anyway - as VM is a charisma-exclusive spell, and will result in a statistically lower hit ratio even if they did dip bard or took the feat. Statistically, wizard spells deal higher (unmodified) damage compared with bard or divine spells. This pattern holds true, however the actual damage may be higher overall for the bard due to resistance, and saving throw discrepencies. Furthermore, once all the factors are considered (resistance, saving throw DCs, etc), the only reason that frostbite deals d6 damage is because its ability is more powerful than the wizards d8 cantrips. VM has so many additional advantages, that I could easily justify a 2 step difference in damage die between VM and FB. With that being said, the Wizard has two options to mitigate/reverse this advantage. The bard has no options to keep said advantage should the wizard desire to remove it. Elemental Adept - Cold (feat) Elemental Bane (spell)
#28 Orethalion Mar 10, 2015 9:05:50	Kalani wrote:
#29 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 9:14:25	No, its an amazing control spell for the wizard. VM just happens to do its job better, but will usually deal slightly less damage. I have no problem with this in the slightest. I am glad that frostbite has not made vicious mockery obsolete. I am also glad that frostbite is not inherrently inferior to VM either. Both spells have their niche/advantages, and neither spell steps on the other's toes. Dealing slightly more damage of a more commonly resisted type is a perfectly acceptable price to pay (and one that can be offset with a feat). It's a pitty about the Con save though, but perfectly understandable. We have enough DEX save cantrips already, and WIS would be insanely difficult to justify for a cold spell. Divine spells should heal better than an arcane equivalent. Cleric healing should be superior to druid or paladin healing. Bards have slightly better single-target control spells than wizards. Bards have superior buff spells to wizards and comparable (yet different) buffs to clerics. Wizards have better AoE control/damage spells and deal more damage (on average). Etc
#30 FFSAA Mar 10, 2015 9:12:22	Kalani wrote:
#31 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 9:25:59	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #27) Ranthalan	Kalani wrote:
#33 mellored Mar 10, 2015 9:25:36	Kalani wrote:
#34 mellored Mar 10, 2015 9:27:45	Kalani wrote:
#35 abs1nth Mar 10, 2015 9:29:55	Absorb elements seems insanely good for a lvl 1 spell. Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage Range: Self Components: S Duration: 1 round The spell captures some of the incoming energy, lessening its effect on you and storing it for your next melee attack. You have resistance to the triggering damage type until the start of your next turn. Also, the first time you hit with a melee attack on your next turn, the target takes an extra 1d6 damage of the triggering type, and the spell ends. Edit: But, YAY for free stuff! <3
#36 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 9:29:56	I do not know of anyone who has crunched the numbers in respect to monster saving throw proficiencies, but the Know your Enemy thread lists the average AC and ability scores of all creatures by CR and creature type (some of these scores are plugged on line graphs). It's a pitty that thread wasn't 100% complete, and actually gave us saving throw modifiers as well (to complement AC), but alas.........
(Reply to #25) Coredump00	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #30) Coredump00	FFSAA wrote:
#39 ModusPonens Mar 10, 2015 9:44:59	Do people only post here to be "right" about something?
#40 abs1nth Mar 10, 2015 9:45:03	Beast Bond is supposed to allow the ranger to not use his action to command his animal companion, right? It seems only logical considering the telepathic bond that is also present with Conjure Animal which doesn't cost your action to attack, either. This seems quite powerful, not sure why they felt the need to tack on the advantage for creatures within 5 feet from you. Was that really necessary? Beast Bond 1st-level divination Casting Time: 1 action Range: Touch Components: V, S, M (a bit of fur wrapped in a cloth) Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes You establish a telepathic link with one beast you touch that is friendly to you or charmed by you. The spell fails if the beast’s Intelligence is 4 or higher. Until the spell ends, the link is active while you and the beast are within line of sight of each other. Through the link, the beast can understand your telepathic messages to it, and it can telepathically communicate simple emotions and concepts back to you. While the link is active, the beast gains advantage on attack rolls against any creature within 5 feet of you that you can see.
#41 mellored Mar 10, 2015 9:51:11	ModusPonens wrote:
#42 mellored Mar 10, 2015 9:52:38	abs1nth wrote:
#43 abs1nth Mar 10, 2015 10:04:35	mellored wrote:
#44 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 10:02:46	ModusPonens wrote:
#45 awogaman Mar 10, 2015 10:25:40	My eyes begin to glaze over with percent symbols and numbers and such cuz maths. But did anyone mention that frostbite would have a little more advantage for a 10th level evoker which would also add their intelligence modifier, assuming I'm reading it correctly.
#46 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 10:42:32	Yes, we noticed. More importantly, it works with the 6th level potent cantrip feature (as mentioned in the OP, quoted below).
#47 mellored Mar 10, 2015 10:39:16	No one said the sky was falling. But 1d6 > 1d4.
#48 IxidorRS Mar 10, 2015 10:43:16	abs1nth wrote:
#49 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 10:50:18	mellored wrote:
#50 mellored Mar 10, 2015 10:47:37	Kalani wrote:
#51 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 11:08:09	mellored wrote:
#52 mellored Mar 10, 2015 11:06:07	40% more then anything is for 40% more.
#53 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 11:12:40	mellored wrote:
#54 mellored Mar 10, 2015 11:49:32	Kalani wrote:
#55 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 12:12:59	mellored wrote:
#56 Karnos Mar 10, 2015 12:09:46	ModusPonens wrote:
(Reply to #54) OoftaMeg	mellored wrote:
#58 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 12:15:29	I will concede the point that the +1 damage might be relevant for 1-2 levels, but seeing as you are expected to reach L3 in 2-3 sessions, I don't consider it relevant overall.
#59 mellored Mar 10, 2015 12:19:22	Kalani wrote:
#60 Kalani Mar 10, 2015 12:28:06	mellored wrote:
#61 Orethalion Mar 10, 2015 13:37:21	Kalani wrote:
#62 BoldItalic Mar 10, 2015 14:20:46	Karnos wrote:
#63 Bloodscythe Mar 10, 2015 14:21:06	Seems to just be a difference of opinion... Do you consider the change of 1d6 one handed quartertstaff to 1d8 two handed quarterstaff to be significant? It's only a factor of +1 extra damage per strike. If it's insignificant, then we should never see anyone ever using a two handed quarterstaff. Yet, we do see characters using the quarterstaff with two hands, just for that extra +1 "insignificant" increase in damage. To them, the +1 damage is significant. Some people may not consider the damage gain to be worth sacrificing a shield AC bonus though. To them, the +1 damage is insignficant. Some people see it as situational. Sometimes it's significant and sometimes it isn't. The same can be said about frostbite versus VM. Do you consider the damage difference between a longsword and a shortsword to be significant? If you don't, then the difference between frostbite and VM isn't. If you do, then the difference between frostbite and VM is. Within the context of D&D, and more specifically that killing monsters equals advancing your character, more damage = significant, even if it's just +1. But I can see how someone might think it is not.
#64 mellored Mar 10, 2015 15:05:40	if the party does 50 damage, and now it does 51, no it's not significant. if a party of 4 casters does 10 damage, and now does 14 damage, then yes it is significant.
#65 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 15:18:38	Awesome. Now that that's settled, we can all agree 40% =/= significant. Instead, that it only *might* = significant, depending on circumstances. Finally. Whew. Now we can all drop it, amIright?
#66 Orethalion Mar 10, 2015 15:19:42	mellored wrote:
#67 mellored Mar 10, 2015 15:24:10	50 to 51 is 2%.
#68 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 15:25:55	Orethalion wrote:
#69 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 15:27:42	mellored wrote:
#70 mellored Mar 10, 2015 15:34:16	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#71 Mephi1234 Mar 10, 2015 15:38:44	Oh... Oh my gods. New Warlock spells! Time fr reading and updating the thread!
#72 Mephi1234 Mar 10, 2015 15:53:20	I am also in love with the Genasi!
#73 Orethalion Mar 10, 2015 16:58:47	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#74 ChrisCarlson Mar 10, 2015 17:03:17	Orethalion wrote:
#75 Orethalion Mar 10, 2015 17:20:49	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#76 mellored Mar 10, 2015 21:18:41	the fighter's damage makes the wizards damage insignificant. (7.6% is less then 40%)
#77 Orethalion Mar 10, 2015 21:54:53	mellored wrote:
#78 arnwolf666 Mar 10, 2015 22:08:02	I hate it when a thread becomes about DPR
#79 Frozeman Mar 10, 2015 22:18:49	You know Mellored, I usualy agree with your posts, but given the other advantages VM has I don't think the fact that FB will likely kill a kobold in two hits (with decent rolls) instead of the likely three that VM will take matters. I'd say that if you are casting either spell for damage you are doing something wrong, so the extra damage on FB is pretty insignificant.
#80 seti Mar 10, 2015 23:15:05	Why would Vicious Mockery even hurt anything that a) can't hear, and/or b) doesn't have a language? That's the silly part to me, not the d6 vs d4, or CON save vs. WIS save, or the cold damage vs psychic damage...
#81 JohnnyNitro Mar 11, 2015 1:38:44	I love the lack of consideration for role-playing this whole argument reeks of. You wanna know the reason I take Frostbite over Vicious Mockery? Because it makes sense for my concept.
#82 ORC_Nashira Mar 11, 2015 6:39:00	I've removed content from this thread because flaming/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct&menu=Awards
#83 Mephi1234 Mar 11, 2015 6:51:19	JohnnyNitro wrote:
#84 ORC_Nashira Mar 11, 2015 7:32:27	I've removed content from this thread because flaming/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct&menu=Awards Please do not continue baiting and flaming in your posts, or we will be forced to close an otherwise constructive thread. Move forward within the conversation and the Code of Conduct please.
#85 Matau99 Mar 11, 2015 8:24:11	What I think is really cool is Thunderclap on an Evoker. At full power, it's doing 31 damage to everyone nearby--that's almost as much as the the average damage of a Fireball!
#86 Synjin Mar 11, 2015 9:25:49	arnwolf666 wrote:
#87 ORC_Cricket Mar 11, 2015 16:50:32	We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others. Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Karnos

Mar 10, 2015 6:29:51

With Frostbite and Thunderclap, evocation wizards finally have an actual evocation cantrip that works with their ability "Potent Cantrip". No longer will they be forced to use conjuration cantrips just to benefit from this ability.

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 6:34:57

Where?

(Reply to #2)

Karnos

mellored wrote:

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 7:18:49

So frostbite is just as superior vicious mockery...

AaronOfBarbaria

Mar 10, 2015 7:20:52

Not that I felt there was ever a problem with evokers using conjuration spells to get the benefit of their feature... but those are a pair of pretty cool spells that I am happy to see (and the other spells are pretty cool too, especially happy to see a pair of old favorites of mine in Aganazzar's scorcher and Melf's minute meteors)

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 7:23:19

mellored wrote:

Karnos

Mar 10, 2015 7:25:41

ChrisCarlson wrote:

(Reply to #4)

AaronOfBarbaria

mellored wrote:

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 7:29:48

Not to mention which saves are being targetted, respectively. Cuz that also matters.

And who can cast the spell. Which class(es) have access to any particular spell matters too.

[Edit: Partially ninja'ed!]

#10

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 7:41:10

Frostbite
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You cause numbing frost to form on one creature that you can see within range. The target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 1d6 cold damage, and it has disadvantage on the next weapon attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.

The spell’s damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

#11

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 7:36:31

And let's not forget how awesome it is to be able to insult someone to death!

Any ol' spellcaster can shoot energy beams. Bards kill with their words...

#12

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 7:39:47

True. VM also gets points for visceral imagery. It is just a cooler spell overall (no pun intended).

Vicious mockery gives frostbite the cold shoulder when it comes to which spell is superior (pun intended). I guess wizards and their cronies will just have to chill out to the Bard's cool rhythms. (I could go on like this for hours)

#13

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 7:43:43

Kalani wrote:

#14

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 7:48:11

Do you find yourself experiencing even a little bit of griminess after having so disingenuously tried to claim that 1 point of damage more is a "significant" increase? Because it's also true that a guy with a 12 strength does 100% more damage with a punch as someone with a 10 strength. So that 12 strength guy is obviously very scary. I mean, 100% increase!? That's so broken powerful, amIright?

#15

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 8:07:26

mellored wrote:

#16

RCanine

Mar 10, 2015 8:13:20

GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS

This isn't the 90s anymore. If you're talking about something on the Internet, post the URL. Like this:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/145542/Elemental-Evil-Players-Companion-5e

#17

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 8:03:52

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#18

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 8:10:26

Kalani wrote:

#19

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 8:11:43

RCanine wrote:

#20

IxidorRS

Mar 10, 2015 8:13:21

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #16)

Miladoon

RCanine wrote:

#22

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 8:21:40

Have you factored in resistance into your calculations... VM is resisted far less frequently than FB.

There are several other factors you are ignoring in your calculations - all of which are relevant.

Sample Size: How large is the difference between percentage points in the range. A small sample size results in massive fluctuations in percentage with little gain. A large sample size results in smaller fluctuations in percentage across the range.
Value compared against all other possible values: IOWs, comparing the d4 and d6 against all other possible damage values, including d10, d12, and 8d6.

Significant

29 vs. 40: +13

Insignificant

2.5 vs 3.5: +1

Both numbers are 40% larger in their respective sample sizes, but when compared against all possible damage numbers - +1 is largely irrelevant, while +13 is always relevant.

(Reply to #18)

Coredump00

mellored wrote:

#24

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 8:54:02

mellored wrote:

#25

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 8:45:18

Kalani wrote:

#26

Orethalion

Mar 10, 2015 9:02:02

Kalani wrote:

#27

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 9:06:18

May I ask why you would choose a suboptimal method of attack if given any other choice?

The only reason someone would attack with an unarmed strike is if they are a monk, have the tavern brawler feat, or they have no alternative. Only in the latter a situation would such a small difference in damage become relevant.

The same holds true in respect to this discussion.

Why would the wizard cast frostbite when they have the option of casting firebolt - if damage is their motivating factor and they have the choice?
The bard doesn't have a choice unless they dip Warlock/magic initiate for frostbite. This results in an opportunity cost to access the other spell.
The wizard doesn't have a choice between VM or FB anyway - as VM is a charisma-exclusive spell, and will result in a statistically lower hit ratio even if they did dip bard or took the feat.

Statistically, wizard spells deal higher (unmodified) damage compared with bard or divine spells. This pattern holds true, however the actual damage may be higher overall for the bard due to resistance, and saving throw discrepencies.

Furthermore, once all the factors are considered (resistance, saving throw DCs, etc), the only reason that frostbite deals d6 damage is because its ability is more powerful than the wizards d8 cantrips. VM has so many additional advantages, that I could easily justify a 2 step difference in damage die between VM and FB.

With that being said, the Wizard has two options to mitigate/reverse this advantage. The bard has no options to keep said advantage should the wizard desire to remove it.

Elemental Adept - Cold (feat)
Elemental Bane (spell)

#28

Orethalion

Mar 10, 2015 9:05:50

Kalani wrote:

#29

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 9:14:25

No, its an amazing control spell for the wizard. VM just happens to do its job better, but will usually deal slightly less damage. I have no problem with this in the slightest.

I am glad that frostbite has not made vicious mockery obsolete. I am also glad that frostbite is not inherrently inferior to VM either. Both spells have their niche/advantages, and neither spell steps on the other's toes. Dealing slightly more damage of a more commonly resisted type is a perfectly acceptable price to pay (and one that can be offset with a feat). It's a pitty about the Con save though, but perfectly understandable. We have enough DEX save cantrips already, and WIS would be insanely difficult to justify for a cold spell.

Divine spells should heal better than an arcane equivalent.
Cleric healing should be superior to druid or paladin healing.
Bards have slightly better single-target control spells than wizards.
Bards have superior buff spells to wizards and comparable (yet different) buffs to clerics.
Wizards have better AoE control/damage spells and deal more damage (on average).
Etc

#30

FFSAA

Mar 10, 2015 9:12:22

Kalani wrote:

#31

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 9:25:59

FFSAA wrote:

(Reply to #27)

Ranthalan

Kalani wrote:

#33

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 9:25:36

Kalani wrote:

#34

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 9:27:45

Kalani wrote:

#35

abs1nth

Mar 10, 2015 9:29:55

Absorb elements seems insanely good for a lvl 1 spell.

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you take
acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: 1 round
The spell captures some of the incoming energy, lessening its effect on you and storing it for your next melee attack. You have resistance to the triggering damage type until the start of your next turn. Also, the first time you hit with a melee attack on your next turn, the target takes an extra 1d6 damage of the triggering type, and the spell ends.

Edit: But, YAY for free stuff! <3

#36

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 9:29:56

I do not know of anyone who has crunched the numbers in respect to monster saving throw proficiencies, but the Know your Enemy thread lists the average AC and ability scores of all creatures by CR and creature type (some of these scores are plugged on line graphs).

It's a pitty that thread wasn't 100% complete, and actually gave us saving throw modifiers as well (to complement AC), but alas.........

(Reply to #25)

Coredump00

mellored wrote:

(Reply to #30)

Coredump00

FFSAA wrote:

#39

ModusPonens

Mar 10, 2015 9:44:59

Do people only post here to be "right" about something?

#40

abs1nth

Mar 10, 2015 9:45:03

Beast Bond is supposed to allow the ranger to not use his action to command his animal companion, right? It seems only logical considering the telepathic bond that is also present with Conjure Animal which doesn't cost your action to attack, either. This seems quite powerful, not sure why they felt the need to tack on the advantage for creatures within 5 feet from you. Was that really necessary?

Beast Bond
1st-level divination
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a bit of fur wrapped in a cloth) Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes You establish a telepathic link with one beast you touch that is friendly to you or charmed by you. The spell fails if the beast’s Intelligence is 4 or higher. Until the spell ends, the link is active while you and the beast are within line of sight of each other. Through the link, the beast can understand your telepathic messages to it, and it can telepathically communicate simple emotions and concepts back to you. While the link is active, the beast gains advantage on attack rolls against any creature within 5 feet of you that you can see.

#41

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 9:51:11

ModusPonens wrote:

#42

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 9:52:38

abs1nth wrote:

#43

abs1nth

Mar 10, 2015 10:04:35

mellored wrote:

#44

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 10:02:46

ModusPonens wrote:

#45

awogaman

Mar 10, 2015 10:25:40

My eyes begin to glaze over with percent symbols and numbers and such cuz maths. But did anyone mention that frostbite would have a little more advantage for a 10th level evoker which would also add their intelligence modifier, assuming I'm reading it correctly.

#46

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 10:42:32

Yes, we noticed. More importantly, it works with the 6th level potent cantrip feature (as mentioned in the OP, quoted below).

#47

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 10:39:16

No one said the sky was falling.

But 1d6 > 1d4.

#48

IxidorRS

Mar 10, 2015 10:43:16

abs1nth wrote:

#49

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 10:50:18

mellored wrote:

#50

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 10:47:37

Kalani wrote:

#51

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 11:08:09

mellored wrote:

#52

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 11:06:07

40% more then anything is for 40% more.

#53

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 11:12:40

mellored wrote:

#54

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 11:49:32

Kalani wrote:

#55

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 12:12:59

mellored wrote:

#56

Karnos

Mar 10, 2015 12:09:46

ModusPonens wrote:

(Reply to #54)

OoftaMeg

mellored wrote:

#58

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 12:15:29

I will concede the point that the +1 damage might be relevant for 1-2 levels, but seeing as you are expected to reach L3 in 2-3 sessions, I don't consider it relevant overall.

#59

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 12:19:22

Kalani wrote:

#60

Kalani

Mar 10, 2015 12:28:06

mellored wrote:

#61

Orethalion

Mar 10, 2015 13:37:21

Kalani wrote:

#62

BoldItalic

Mar 10, 2015 14:20:46

Karnos wrote:

#63

Bloodscythe

Mar 10, 2015 14:21:06

Seems to just be a difference of opinion...

Do you consider the change of 1d6 one handed quartertstaff to 1d8 two handed quarterstaff to be significant? It's only a factor of +1 extra damage per strike. If it's insignificant, then we should never see anyone ever using a two handed quarterstaff.

Yet, we do see characters using the quarterstaff with two hands, just for that extra +1 "insignificant" increase in damage. To them, the +1 damage is significant.

Some people may not consider the damage gain to be worth sacrificing a shield AC bonus though. To them, the +1 damage is insignficant.

Some people see it as situational. Sometimes it's significant and sometimes it isn't. The same can be said about frostbite versus VM.

Do you consider the damage difference between a longsword and a shortsword to be significant? If you don't, then the difference between frostbite and VM isn't. If you do, then the difference between frostbite and VM is.

Within the context of D&D, and more specifically that killing monsters equals advancing your character, more damage = significant, even if it's just +1. But I can see how someone might think it is not.

#64

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 15:05:40

if the party does 50 damage, and now it does 51, no it's not significant.
if a party of 4 casters does 10 damage, and now does 14 damage, then yes it is significant.

#65

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 15:18:38

Awesome. Now that that's settled, we can all agree 40% =/= significant.

Instead, that it only might = significant, depending on circumstances.

Finally. Whew. Now we can all drop it, amIright?

#66

Orethalion

Mar 10, 2015 15:19:42

mellored wrote:

#67

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 15:24:10

50 to 51 is 2%.

#68

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 15:25:55

Orethalion wrote:

#69

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 15:27:42

mellored wrote:

#70

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 15:34:16

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#71

Mephi1234

Mar 10, 2015 15:38:44

Oh... Oh my gods. New Warlock spells!

Time fr reading and updating the thread!

#72

Mephi1234

Mar 10, 2015 15:53:20

I am also in love with the Genasi!

#73

Orethalion

Mar 10, 2015 16:58:47

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#74

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 17:03:17

Orethalion wrote:

#75

Orethalion

Mar 10, 2015 17:20:49

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#76

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 21:18:41

the fighter's damage makes the wizards damage insignificant. (7.6% is less then 40%)

#77

Orethalion

Mar 10, 2015 21:54:53

mellored wrote:

#78

arnwolf666

Mar 10, 2015 22:08:02

I hate it when a thread becomes about DPR

#79

Frozeman

Mar 10, 2015 22:18:49

You know Mellored, I usualy agree with your posts, but given the other advantages VM has I don't think the fact that FB will likely kill a kobold in two hits (with decent rolls) instead of the likely three that VM will take matters. I'd say that if you are casting either spell for damage you are doing something wrong, so the extra damage on FB is pretty insignificant.

#80

seti

Mar 10, 2015 23:15:05

Why would Vicious Mockery even hurt anything that a) can't hear, and/or b) doesn't have a language? That's the silly part to me, not the d6 vs d4, or CON save vs. WIS save, or the cold damage vs psychic damage...

#81

JohnnyNitro

Mar 11, 2015 1:38:44

I love the lack of consideration for role-playing this whole argument reeks of. You wanna know the reason I take Frostbite over Vicious Mockery? Because it makes sense for my concept.

#82

ORC_Nashira

Mar 11, 2015 6:39:00

I've removed content from this thread because flaming/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_company_about_codeofconduct&menu=Awards

#83

Mephi1234

Mar 11, 2015 6:51:19

JohnnyNitro wrote:

#84

ORC_Nashira

Mar 11, 2015 7:32:27

Please do not continue baiting and flaming in your posts, or we will be forced to close an otherwise constructive thread. Move forward within the conversation and the Code of Conduct please.

#85

Matau99

Mar 11, 2015 8:24:11

What I think is really cool is Thunderclap on an Evoker. At full power, it's doing 31 damage to everyone nearby--that's almost as much as the the average damage of a Fireball!

#86

Synjin

Mar 11, 2015 9:25:49

arnwolf666 wrote:

#87

ORC_Cricket

Mar 11, 2015 16:50:32

We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.

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