Hi guys,
One of the PCs in my campaign got bitten by a wererat in hybrid form and failed his Con save. He's now got immunity to nonmagical, nonsilvered weapon damage. During the last session, he fell down a slope, taking falling damage. While the player was happy with that, I find myself struggling to get my head around the idea that if the PC were to fall and smack his head on a rock, he would take some damage, but if someone were to pick up that very same rock and hit him over the head with it, he wouldn't take any damage. How does that work?
Thanks,
Jonathan
Gravity is magic!
Real answer: This is a case where you can either follow the strict written word of the rules (and falling is still an issue) or you can decide what you believe the intent of the rule is and go with that (possibly that lycanthropes can only be harmed by silver and magic, full stop).
I personally like to leave them unprotected from falling damage because I don't want to see werewolves jumping off of airships to escape a battle not going in their favor.
Personally I do lycanthrope's take damage from only silver weapons, nothing else, not even disintegrate or power word kill. But I am an evil DM.
I don't really want to make the effect more powerful. It's just that I like to have rules that make sense (to me at least).
Same reason an unconcious character still dodges attacks and gets their DEX bonus to AC. The rules have been made with some massive versimilitude sacrifices to make them very slightly more simple to use.
As lycanthrope immunities pretty much make PCs indestructible to a large chunk of monsters, not to mention, hey, free +1 AC from werewolf hybrid form to boot, you really can't let your PCs be lycanthropes without having to bend over backwards and change the entire ecology of your world to things that can hurt the PCs.
You might want to houserule lycanthropy to give "damage resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage from sources that aren't magical and silver." Still over the top powerful, but your "hit on the head with a rock" situation is "fixed" and the characters aren't literally indestructible to that storm giant smashing him on the head with a rock over and over.
FFSAA wrote:
I find the Immunities/Resistances of several monsters lacking, or not appropriate, modrons now have no immunities or resistances, whatsoever, whatever happened to their acid/cold/fire resistance, and constructs and undead seem all over the place. And warforged can catch lycanthropy...
Brock_Landers wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Hello there, I had a player bitten by a Werewolf and lost his Saving Throw as well so this is a very interesting topic
Brock_Landers wrote:
I had hoped they would have used the transformation rules for druids for werecritters. Under a full moon, the PC turns into an evil monster with vulnerability to silver weapons and a lot of hp's, but take enough damage, and he/she turns back. To borrow a phrase from 13th Age, the Nastier Special is the PC is evil (or eviler) and antagonistic to the party until the sun comes up. That would circumvent the immunities issue.
I hope you're prepared for the day the party warriors realize that not having silver just means they grapple and then hurl the lycanthropes in the air repeatedly. 
thespaceinvader wrote:
man.of.tomorrow wrote:
You could go with a "Resist" mechanic similar to 4e. That way a lycanthrope that took a HUGE amount of normal damage would still get hurt. Fall from a 20 foot building... resist 20 normal damage would cover that... Fall 2000 feet from an airship... not so much. I'd have to do a bit of number crunching on the amount of damage things like falling and getting smacked by a giant causes to get an actual 'Resist' value.
man.of.tomorrow wrote:
My suggestion is: first see how you want to interpret this "immunity".
In game terms it only means damage isn't dealt, but how do you interpret that in the narrative?
Does the were's skin actually stops any blow that isn't from a silver object? Then you might consider it not working for falling damage as it is a massive blunt impact that causes internal damage more than cuts and bruises.
Or does the werewolf almost-instantly regenerate any damage that isn't dealt from silver? (This is actually the more common interpretation for were beasts in general fantasy.) You could use the same immunity mechanics but really what's happening is the creature regenerates all that damage almost instantly, except when it comes from silver which stops its recovery. In this case I would use the immunity for anything physical that isn't silver, including falls. However, I'd make a sub-rule here, that if the creature takes massive damage from one attack of source that exceeds its total HP, then it's dead. Because it actually died before it could regenerate that damage.
I've always described D&D lycanthrope damage immunity as instant regeneration to full hit points... but then, I'd seen plenty of werewolf movies before ever playing D&D.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I have no difficulty with such visualization.
Chiisai_Usagi wrote:
I've been attempting to discuss this with Jeremy Crawford over on Twitter. This is how it's gone so far:
JC: Immunity to nonmagical weapons intentionally leaves the door open for a monster to take damage from falling, being crushed, etc.
Me: OK. Still seems a bit weird - monster can hit its head on a rock and get hurt but doesn't if the rock is used as a weapon.
JC: That would have to be a mighty bump on the head to deal damage to a character, much less a lycanthrope.
Me: It still doesn't make a lot of sense to me that one can't take bludgeoning damage from a club but can take it from a fall.
JC: A lycanthrope's immunity is a supernatural resilience against the attacks of regular mortals. It's not about the damage types.
Me: But why would they be resistant to mortals' attacks but not forces of nature? It feels like it should be all or nothing.
FFSAA wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Now I have a tough one for you!
What if the werewolf falls from a height on top of a bunch of silver ore rocks?
It would take falling damage as normal?
While I love the 5e Monster Manual for the most part, I really dislike the rules for lycanthropes. I think it makes much more sense to give them regeneration, like that of trolls, except that it's stopped by damage from silver weapons instead of acid or fire.
FallingIcicle wrote:
pukunui wrote:
I agree. I am beginning to regret having the wererat bite the PC. If nothing else, I shouldn't have had all the bennies kick in right away. I should've made it so the immunity and such only applies during the full moon to start with, becoming permanent only if the PC embraces the curse.
I suppose I could talk to the player concerned and see about retconning it, but as I said above, I don't think he's planning on embracing the curse. I believe he is intending to have the curse removed after he's had a chance to experience it fully.
I actually (stupidly) got a player bit two sessions ago. Unfortunately, I (stupidly) had the thing that bit him be a weretiger, whose alignment is Neutral. So there was literally no downside for him embracing the "curse." Clearly, the player (who is already a bit of a min-maxer) is pretty pleased with my slip up.
I decided to see what it was like for a session so I could figure out the best course to take. Let me tell you, it was so broken. Even before the session began, I nerfed the ability so that he had Resistance (instead of Immunity) to non-magical and Weakness to silvered. He's a monk, so he was in the thick of things. Still, even then, he never got below half HP. It was effectively an ECL bump of 2 or 3. And, when everyone else is level 5, that's a big deal. (Not to mention that he's a Monk, so he already has a whole other swath of functional damage immunities in his future.)
I'm trying to brainstorm how to let him keep his lycanthropy while not overshadowing the rest of the PCs. It's a tough nut to crack without totally making up a custom parallel mechanic system, which is what I think I'll end up doing.
His suggestion:
Use it like a Rage. The number of uses will go by the Rage table for a Barbarian. It can be used as a free action, and it lasts for 10 rounds. He gets the Resistance for the duration along with the other actions taken by the Lycan. He can shift in and out of the form(s) out of combat at will, but once combat starts, he has it for 10 rounds before it ends. He shifts out if combat starts and he doesn't have any uses left.
I don't love that solution, though. Basically, at level 5, that will give him 3 battles' worth (since basically no fights last 10 rounds) of 1/2 damage. Still pretty OP, especially considering how rarely you have more than, say, 4 encounters between rests and considering how the number of "rages" will scale up.
My thoughts:
In addition to the passive goodies (extra STR, Keen Hearing & Smell, Pounce attack, shapeshifting), he gets old school DR (damage reduction) on non-magic weapons while retaining Weakness to silvered weapons. I'm thinking DR 5 (but it might have to be tweaked depending on results).
My Reasoning:
- Lycanthropy itself is not supposed to be a big scary deal beyond the lowest levels (e.g. - the "cure" to lycanthropy is straightforward, available to any cleric at level 5, and functionally free).
- Lycanthropes are supposed to be a big scary deal at the lowest levels (e.g. - "farmers with pitchforks" shouldn't be able to harm them, no matter how many farmers there are).
- Lycanthropes are not supposed to be a big scary deal at middling levels (e.g. - the biggest, scariest of the lycanthropes is CR 5).
- So, lycanthropes are not scary all of the time - they occupy a place on the monster/danger food chain. If you're a commoner or a CR 1 monster, you would be afraid of a CR 3 werewolf. If you're a CR 5 monster, you really wouldn't be.
- By this logic, lycanthropy doesn't scale (in the way that a class mechanic such as Rage would). It is, mechanically speaking, a static bump in stats.
- Per the above points, this static bump should be enough to make the creature functionally indestructible to the lowest-level challenges, but not make or break a mid-level-and-above fight.
- If we implement a DR (non-magic) of roughly the right number, that would replicate the above requirement.
- The average damage-per-hit given by baddies with CR <1 is around 4 HP. The average damage given by baddies with CR 1-2 is around 8 HP. The average damage given by baddies with CR 3-6 is around 12 HP. Obviously, the higher you go, the more variance is introduced, but you get the picture.
- So, a lycanthropic PC with 5 DR can wade through a sea of commoners, cultists, zombies, skeletons, goblins, kobolds, and orcs and come out unscathed (as long as they don't have magic or silvered weapons, of course) without lifting a finger. His wounds would close up as quickly as they were made. He have better than Resistance - he would be functionally Immune to their attacks. (Cinematically, that's actually pretty badass.)
- That same PC could fight berserkers, gricks, guard drakes, bugbears, mummies, and knights and only take half damage. DR 5 gives them effective Resistance to these CR 1-3 baddies.
- However, as you face the mid-to-high challenges, this means less. It's still DR, which is great, but it's not lifechanging or game-breaking. For instance, it still reduces a Tarrasque's damage by 14% (not too shabby), but it doesn't reduce a Tarrasque's damage by 50% (broken).
Other possible ideas:
- Even if the curse is "embraced," the DM still gets control for 3 days every lunar cycle to do with the PC as he sees fit.
4E the DM had to tally up 5 points of regeneration every turn. 3E the DM had to subtract 5 from the damage of every hit... 5E considers that WAY too complicated, so we get immunity.
Lots of ways you can handle it. Giving the same -3 that Heavy Armor Master gives, but defeated by silver, might not be a bad one, particularly for a monk that probably won't use heavy armor.
My own version is tereantrophy is different. In the lowest levesl is a no-magical diesease like the infected people from "28 days later". After only damage reduction/magic or silver, and healing hitpoint for each suceful attack like some maneuvers from "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords". The "feral infected" wouldn´t be really supernatural pureblood theriantropes, but a furry variant of zombie apocalypse. Even in my settings the werebeastas can hunt and eat zombies/ghouls.
Locke219 wrote:
I ended up getting a player bit by a wererat and we managed to agree on a few things:
1. He was already L. Evil, but hiding it from the party, so he is avoiding transformation as long as possible.
2. He get no benefits as a human (already had 16 dex), in hybrid form he is resistant and in rat form he is immune.
3. Always vulnerable to silver no matter what form he is in.
4. Full moon causes feral rat actions.
As of yet it hasn't been a problem and it's probably made him more cautious overall.
Yeah, as DM, you have full recourse to say "Okay, your reclusive nature keys in and you run away."
That being said, don't bring a gun to the PCs if you're not willing to shoot it. Especially if that gun might grant the min-maxer super powers if he survives...
(but yeah, talking to the player is your best bet. In fact, I'd talk to the whole TABLE so as to not let him outshine everyone more-so than he probably already is!)
Great responses everyone!
I talked to him, and he is OK with the DR 5 and the possibility of me taking over his PC during a full moon or two for cinematic/plot purposes. Not a bad trade-off: he gets to be a little more badass (but not too much), and I get another tool to screw with the story 
And, worst case scenario, I'll just hurl spellcasters at him. No DR/Immunity/Resistance there 
I'll report back after a few sessions to let you know how it's going.
IMO they should change it into resistance with the next game update. Immunity should be the prerogative of beings of divine or near-divine power.
Seems strange to see it on such weak beings when otherwise you only see it on deities and titans. It was a nice touch setting them apart from mundane beings
Mirtek wrote:
I don't no if it is worth while worrying about the immunities. There are other ways to challenge a player with lycanthropy. Like having additional flaws. Roleplaying trying to hide his disease while dealing with wanting to spread the disease, eating trash and the overall stigma could make for an interesting story. The more he goes around being invincible the more likely people are going to realize what he is and start having silvered weapons. Also, I think black ice would have the same effect as silvered, so having a wererat PC would drive the spread of those weapons.