2 month's ago we got the Elemental Evil Player's Companion. It caused more than a little bit of a stir as it had Aarakocra who had a fly speed straight off the bat. In prior editions flying has normally been gated off to higher levels and has required varying degrees of resources to accomplish.
Now that people have had time to play with the Aarakocra. What do people think about the fly speed? Is it actually a big deal? Or is it a nice tweak that helps the race feel unique and different?
It can be very potent in the right party/situation, but most of the time it's useless. And falling is a serious risk prevents most other abuse.
Outside, with all of your allies out of sight, you can rain arrows down on melee only enemies.
But in a cave, with your alies tanking in front, and you have a bow in the back, it doens't much matter if your on the ground of 10' in the air. You only use 10' of movement to duck behing a corner.
Similarly, if your are within 10' of your enemy, you get no benifit, if you are 45' away, it's a massive boost.
But plenty of other abilities are like that too. Like dragon breath scorching a room full of kobolds, but being pretty crappy againt a single oger.
Overall, i give it blue. Better then most other races (+2 dex helps), but nothing amazing.
Combat advantage: Cool, not OP
Narrative impact: Grrr, BAN HAMMER! 
Creatures with fly movement is a good example of because we need a module about different challenge ratings. With fly speed a character could cross a long hallway avoiding most of traps. An humanoid with wings could try to glide if she falls in a pitfall, like a leather fall spell. With fly speed climbing wouldn´t be necesary. Harpies with bows would be a different menace for a ranger with her own bow, or a barbarian without range weapons.
The DM should to use a different system of XP rewards.
I think in general, it isn't that powerful for roughly the same reasons that permastealth and other 'haha, you can't attack me' options aren't. Namely, they convince the DM to either negate your advantage entirely or focus fire on the rest of your group. Which is a usually a really good/mean DM tactic to do.
That said, they make really excellent Monks in a group where the DM puts in two short rests per day ala DMG page 84. Because they get crazy speed and can ignore frontliners to get to the back rank caster targets.
To me, a fly speed is not a question of power, and thus it can't actually be "overpowered."
It just changes the way in which challenges must be presented, such as that "get to the roof of the tower" will need some factors that make flying up there a challenge, or it will need to be viewed as simply not being a challenge in the same vein as "walk two blocks down this street" would be for characters that can't fly.
Wuzzard wrote:
The only way a flying PC negates a trapped hallway is if the entire party can fly. Otherwise, the rest of the party needs to get down there, too. Same for things like chasms and cliff facings. If the flying PC just ignores that and the rest of the party, flying isn't that player's problem.
CCS wrote:
The benefit of flight is balanced by not having other things that might be helpful and most of the time in a dungeon, the Aarakcocra won't be able to stretch its wings.
In the first session of my new campaign, the Aarakcocra PC was able to chase, spot and kill a fleeing goblin. He was able to find the cave where the goblin's gang was hiding. Without the Aarakcocra, the party would not have found this lair. I thought that was pretty cool.
On the other hand, when the group went into the cave everyone else had darkvision so they could see and fight normally while the Aarakcocra had to fumble around and attack at disadvantage.
A classic example of how abilities can balance out over the course of a session.
I've never seen winged flight as being overpowered.
Even if the movement offered by winged flight were overpowered, there are still plenty of ways to tinker it back into normal the normal power level without making it overly complicated.
Flying is nice but in my experience with previous flying characters, it's not so devastating that other characters disappeared. In 4E, with its heavy orientation on tactical minis game play, it was nicer but in 2E I remember avariel characters and a few others with substantial flight. They were not overwhelming. If they got too good, I'd simplly just start shooting at them more. Adjust your encounters and make sure that foes have a solid combined arms team and you're good.
Though I haven't had the opportunity to actually play with them at all, I look at the aarakocra and I can't help but think of all those Lord of the Rings "Why didn't they just call the eagles to help them to begin with?" questions.
Before I go on, I'm a bit of an LotR nerd and I know full damn well why they didn't call the eagles (the eagles wouldn't have come, if you're wondering).
Basically, flying creates a lot of shortcuts for both narrative and overcoming challenges. There's a reason flight has become one of the most popular forms of long distance travel in modern times. From an engineering point of view, it cuts out tons of obstacles simply by bypassing them altogether, so if you have the option you would simply take it.
I can see many reasons why DMs would feel the desire to restrict it for the sake of maintaining a certain amount of challenge. I can also see many reasons why it wouldn't be terribly overpowered in situations where DMs are prepared for it. It ultimately comes down to how much the DM wants to use the environment as a challenge in and of itself.
We Have an Arrakokra Ranged Fighter in our party, tbh its just kinda annoying.. hes taken sharpshooter so he pretty much stays 600 feet in the air shooting at things, the only real annoyance is that now our battle grid essentially has to have 3 axes and if someone forgets to change the die counter it gets all muddled up, also means that the pally and the barbarian in the party really take a hammering as our outher high hp PC is over 600 feet away. Personally, i would ban it if i was DM just because its an additional thing to have to keep track of/deal with when there is already a lot
Tfuture wrote:
Breefolk wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm glad to hear that it's turned out to not be the great big issue it was originally perceived as. I was surprised to have another look at the race and see they get nothing without the ability to climb.
As for the narrative impact it has on the party, a group of elves similarly have such issues. They can sneak around in the middle of the night and they'll spot any non-darkvision races a mile away. A dwarf rogue in prior editions is one of the better rogues for scouting, as they don't need a light. There's lots of ways a racial ability can overcome a challenge. A genasi holding their breathe (which was seen as one of the weakest races) can breathe anywhere, no matter how toxic or unbreathable the air is. You need to be varied in the challenges you set before your players. If you have a single challenge for the players and they overcome it easily due to a racial trait and the rest of the night is boring, that's a big problem, but it's not with the Aarakocra.
Although I do expect DMs with Aarakocra players will put less white rooms before their players and instead make the environment more varied and interesting. Sounds like a win to me.
I think, if I had a player with a Arrakokra, I would first tell him, that he can't fly all the time. It has to be quite strenous, since you're working against gravity all the time and when you can't even fly with too much of an armor, being in the air all the time shouldn't be possible. But this will most likely never get important, since one or two combats shouldn't be the issue.
Tfuture wrote:
Natural PC flight is much too powerful for 1st level.
Kentus wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Kentus wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Breefolk wrote:
Breefolk wrote:
SirAntoine wrote:
CCS wrote:
SirAntoine wrote:
Breefolk wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Flight isn't overpowered. It's only advantageous if you spend most of the adventuring time in outside areas where the PC can even fly, keep in mind to effectively fly they need at least a 15' wide area to take in wingspan so even a typical dungeon corridor is too narrow to allow flight. Most interiors have ceilings too low to allow flight. Heavily wooded areas would separate the flyer from the ground based characters and provided limited spaces for take off and landing (again you have to accomodate a wide space for wingspan as these aren't small birds but human-sized beings).
The flight has limitations in and of itself and is easily limited with a bit of creativity and variety of environments.
Other abilities of races and classes can be seen as overpowered, if they always have use in every situation, but they rarely do.
In my party the druid uses shapeshifting often to set up a situation to use thunderwave in a group of enemies. He also likes to use thorn whip to pull an enemy out of melee with the barbarian to trigger the barbarian's AoO ability. The two dragonborn try to get enemies lined up so they can use their breath weapon. The assassin tries to line up sneak attacks and assinations as much as possible.
Flight is no different. It can be useful but you have to have the right situation for it to give any real advantage and considering even 1st level characters can run into enemies who can fly (winged kobolds for example) why is it unbalanced for a PC to have the ability to fly but not a monster at the same level?
Grazel wrote:
Grazel wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Perhaps they could begin flying at 9th level or so. Until then, their wings are still developing. The lower level the less they can do, the higher, the faster they can fly and the more weight they can carry.
If the Aarakcocra couldn't fly it would be lame. (Sorry about the pun).
the issue with sharpshooter has nothing to do with flying. a human fighter with sharpshooter could aslo stand 600' away raining down arrows unless the DM provides cover.
and make sure the player understands the risk death from falling. having an enemy ranger with sharpshooter and ensaring strike will quickly end abuse, one way or another.
In terms of broken-ness, like all mobility mechanics, it's absolutely situationally dependant. And a DM can absolutely plan around the ability to maintain proper challenge.
That said, while the DM can account for it, at the point where you're saying 'the DM should evaluate every encounter and challenge to make sure a racial ability on one PC doesn't trivialize it', that's probably a good benchmark for the racial ability being problematic. It may not be 'overpowered', but it might be stealing the spotlight or just require a disproportionate amount of effort for one PC. I don't have it now, but I think there was an extended discussion of this in Savage Species in 3e, where flight was one of those abilities that warranted a level adjustment for exactly these reasons.
So I'd be very cautious of it as a DM. Even if you're confident you can challenge the flier, the other players might be annoyed if they see you constantly going to special effort to challenge the flier.
danyc wrote:
SirAntoine wrote:
To me, the challenge should not be climbing the mountain or being able to overtake a fleeing villain. Let the Aarakcocra get to the top of the mountain. Let the Aarakcocra catch up to the fleeing villain. This is the reward for playing that PC. The challenge will occur when the Aarakcocra gets to the top or when it catches the villain.
In our first session the Aarakcocra's ability to fly fast only added to our enjoyment. He caught the fleeing goblin. He found the goblin gang's cave.
As DM I had the PC make perception checks to locate the fleeing goblin and he succeeded. He was able to find a clearing in front of the cave to land in front of the goblin and kill it. It was fun.
At this point, the Aarakcocra was a considerable distance from the rest of the party so he would have had a tough time if some goblins came out of the cave. Lucky for him there were no more goblins at that moment. To play it safe, the Aarakcocra had to leave that area and regroup with the party.
Darkvision is a common ability (fully two thirds of the default races), unlike flight.
Light sources are commonly available with no resource expenditure (mundane sources, cantrips), unlike flight (which otherwise has a higher resource cost than ever before with concentration rules).
The two are not really comparable, and considering the vast, vast majority of actual D&D games have occurred with a mix of humans and demihumans, we know that darkvision isn't game destroying from literally decades of actual play experience. Low-level inherent flight, on the other hand, has always been the province of odd splatbook races, and has often been recognized by the rules as having extra mechanical value (see my comment about Savage Species and LA mechanics in 3e, for one example).
And this sort of argument really misses my main point, which isn't about the ability being overpowered, but of it potentially requiring disproportionate attention from the DM. A DM doesn't have to cautiously avoid ever making a party fight in the dark because of darkvision; the non-vision character will probably be at disadvantage at worse, or just use a light source. A DM does need to totally rethink any usage of terrain and elevation, or any use of non range-attacking monsters, due to a perma-flying PC.
danyc wrote:
I think part of the issue stems from play style preference. Power gamers and tacticians who like encounter by encounter (4e style) gaming will most likely feel that the ability to fly fast at 1st level is a problem. On the other hand, gamers who prefer focusing on story and rp more than encounter by encounter combat challenge, are more likely to enjoy the new freedom that a flying PC adds. Neither is right or wrong. It is just part of the larger play style issue.
danyc wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
danyc wrote:
I remember the racial traits by the raptoran, the new race from "Races of Wild".
* Maybe D&D creatures can fly because they have got midi-chlorians what can create a special interaction with the dark matter, and then can "swing" in the "oceans" of dark matter of the planet, or that midi-chlorians can create carvorite, an anti-gravity substance.
* Have you thoung about injuries in the wings? If you are hurt and you can´t fly, then you fall to earth.. maybe you could do something like a jump check.... or a magic tattoo with the spell "feather fall".
* Shooting is more difficult during moving. I guess most of shoorters would rather to fly toward a highter position where to shoot.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
The thing about flying creatures is the fact that DM's should alter the surroundings to make it a better fit. Traps in a hallway don't have to only be activated by touch so a flying creature moving down a hallway can still activate traps. They are also more susceptible to ranged attacks etc...
Flying creatures have their advantages and disadvantages but none are game breaking.
I can see, that we can all agree on, that the Aarakora's flight speed can be unreasonable in certain circumstances and that each DM should really consider if this race is to be allowed. In campaigns like Princes of Apocalypse it is a nice feature and a good addition, since it resonates the elemental theme and the campaign is made with flight speed in mind. In other campaigns it might be just broken.
The PHB races are all in the end more or less able to play every kind of campaign without too much trouble. The races in further rulebooks might not. In the end the DM should know if the flight trait might be too powerful for the campaign and if the DM doesn't know, it'd be better to talk to the player first and ask, how important it is to play an Aarakora or if he could be a bit reasonable with the flight, so nobody get annoyed (player, fellow players, DM). Everything else might bring trouble unnecessarily.
RCanine wrote:
While I haven't had any aaracokra players thus far, I've played/run other RPGs where one or more PCs can have access to a flight ability of some sort straight from the start. As long as you account for it when planning out your game sessions, it's not problematic. Just like any other situational advantage a PC can have.
Kentus puts it very well. The standard races, while they have their strengths and weaknesses, aren't likely to be a monkeywrench when exposed to a vaguely normal game. They might shine here or there but mostly they even out. And while MechaPilot is right that all games are different, there still is a 'normal' D&D style that is pretty prevalent and where at will level 1 flight is absolutely going to be disruptive. Telling DMs that they 'just' have to prepare/adjust/etc highlights the problem. I mean, does the DM need to make special preparations to deal with a Dwarf showing up?
Assuming that the DM can prepare specially for this sort of character is also a pretty big assumption about group styles and sounds a bit player-entitled. Not every table is a regular group of close-knit friends playing long-term established characters in a custom campaign. There are organized and convention games, there are meetups and store groups that might have people coming and going, and there are home games with irregular attendees. DMs use modules and material from the web. Heck, at level 1, sometimes players show up without having even run their character by the DM yet.
I can only continue to conclude that because the race requires so much more consideration than others, and that it demands very specific things about how the DM runs his game (no sandbox DMs!) that there is an issue with it.
danyc wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
RCanine wrote:
danyc wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Pretty cherry-picky. And myopic.
What makes you think the wood elf archer has any problems with all melee enemies?
And what makes you think my aarakocra monk plans to avoid engaging melee enemies?
And yes, fey ancestry is far more powerful than flight. At times. Even trying to argue that is prepostrous.
danyc wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
RCanine wrote:
(I'm assuming the following is referring to my earlier post, but can't be sure)
ChrisCarlson wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
This kind of stuff is not very useful to any sort of discussion, and definitely not useful in a debate around whether two options are powerful compared to each other. This kind of stuff is so toxic to our community that it really makes me sad. If anyone else has something useful to bring to this discussion, that's awesome, but people who evade logic with sarcasm and hypocrisy aren't worth my time.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
RCanine wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
RCanine wrote:
SirAntoine wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
The problem described wasn't that flight at level 1 was an issue, it was flight+sharpshooter was an issue. That only becomes a problem at level 4, not level 1. So the flight isn't a level 1 issue, it's a level 4 issue.
Even if we accept the premise that flight at level 1 is a problem, I can only think of 3 or 4 instances since 2008 (when I started playing) where a single player having the ability to fly is going to cause a problem. That's it. That's not entire adventures being rewritten. It's 3 or 4 adventures in all my time of playing Living Forgotten Realms, Pathfinder Society, H1-E3, Scales of War, several adventure paths including Kingmaker which had a strong focus on outdoor exploration. And a find familiar spell can cause the exact same issue, so anyone with the find familiar spell is as problematic as an Aarakocra. In all the situations where flight would have been useful, a climb check was able to overcome the issue. So the Aarakocra ability to fly at level 1 is equal to having a high climb modifier. If I was hoping to choose the most powerful race, I'd want to go Dwarf Rogue. Resistant to poison, advantage on poison saving throws, +2 hit points per level, +1 constitution saving throws, +1 wisdom saving throws and +1 to perception. I'd take all that over "When we're outdoors at level 4 I can easily attack mindless beasts when we're on a flat open plain and there's no cover within reach without the beast attacking me, but still being able to attack the rest of my party. Oh and if I try this trick on low level enemies who have ranged attacks they can kill me."
For the fear about a party of all Aarakocra, a party of all anything is going to be problematic (except maybe all humans). A party of all dwarves can knock an adventure of it's rails. I've been there.
The sharpshooter+Aarakocra combination was a concern of mine. But it doesn't kick in until level 4 and based on what everyone's said it hasn't been a strong problem in actual play.
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Heh, I didn't know they were banned.
That says alot right there.
RCanine wrote:
danyc wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
SirAntoine wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
danyc wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Not to call into question either of your positions, but I think you could have had different experiences. There is no reason why it's impossible for someone to experience difficulties with an all-dwarf party. I think it is well said to say that natural flight is much more over-powered than any of the standard dwarf's abilities. Now the deep dwarves, or duergar, that would be a closer call.
MechaPilot wrote:
It is my opinion that flight at first level is a little overpowered.
So in my campaign when a player asked to be an aarakocra I said it would be fine BUT if you are in a combat encounter then you must end your turn on the ground (or somewhere suitably stable). I don't care where you fly to during your turn, but if you end your turn flying then you will fall to the ground for no reason other than gravity is sick of you defying it. It's a little bit frustrating because he uses a glaive and it has forced me to think in the third dimension for when he can get combat advantage on his attacks. He's a battlemaster too and picked Lunging attack so he has a 15' range on some of his normal melee attacks.
Don't think he was too happy with my decision but he didn't want to DM so I did.
Shasarak wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
pudd wrote:
In general, I think when examining an option, you have to look at how it affects the rest of the party. So when fly guy wants to rain arrows or spells onto the opposition where he can't be hit in melee, how are the monsters reacting to that? There's really 4 options:
The encounter doesn't allow for Flight to do that. This keeps happening and the player likely feels picked on.
The party isn't actually there. So other players are likely bored and that's really bad for most games.
The party is there. The DM has monsters who can't hit the flying PC. So they instead focus fire on the other PCs. This is a very strong tactic and ones that good DMs like to avoid using all the time on any one PC or group of PCs, because eventually players feel like they're being picked on. Again, not good for most games.
The party is there. The DM has monsters who can hit the flying PC. So they focus fire on the PC and he drops to the ground dead. Player, showing a lack of self-awareness, feels like that their PC was being picked on rather than monsters using good tactics. Again, not good for most games.
The problem isn't that Fly at-will is inherently overpowered. The problem is that it is usually underpowered because it makes the rest of the party more vulnerable. And that can make it very socially disruptive unless the DM and players know each other very well.
MechaPilot wrote:
Now we're getting somewhere! Given the following context:
MechaPilot wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
RCanine wrote:
danyc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
people keep ignoring the danger of flight.
name another racial feature that can add 20d6 damage if you fail a saving throw?
mellored wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
mellored wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Wow, there sure must be a lot of adventures that require you to climb past loads of obsticles to get the key that opens the giant door.
it's not supposed to generate more risk then benifit. it's supposed to be a net benifit, otherwise there would be no reason to play the race.
and i don't know what you mean by "flight, talons the whole package", when that is the whole package. and talons is about as useless as you can get.
so you have a race that can dominate in a few situaions with risk, and nothing the rest of the time. compaired to halflings lucky which helps a little all of the time.
as for mitigating the risk, feather fall can negate a good chunk of it, but you can't cast it if you get stunned, plus it's a feat, or a level to get it for most classes.
you also lose the +2 AC from standing behind your allies.
danyc wrote:
Flight isn't a problem unless someone makes it into a problem.
The only arguments I have ever seen always essentially describe the same scenario.
mellored wrote:
halfings have other benifits besides lucky, like additional stealth options.
at the moment, in our campaign, darkvision has helped more then flight of my owl familiar has. and i just stand behind my allies throwing spells just as safe as i would be if i was 20' in the air. safer considering i got hit with hold person once. though i did get caught by a roper, so i could of avoided fall damage once.
mellored wrote:
crimfan07 wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
I think it's telling that some are trying to rationalize that there could be a fantasy world where frickin' bird people buzz around shooting stuff, and yet bad guys aren't supposed to know it and be able to deal with it (by being properly armed or have tactics to mitigate their benefit).
Funny stuff.
crimfan07 wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
No one thinks any NPC is confused.
But som of us do realize that the rest of the MM you didn't list (nearly all animals, azers, bulettes, carrion crawlers, chuul, most various demons and devils, dinosaurs, displacer beasts, dopplegangers, most elementals, ettins, fomorians, galeb duhr, ghouls/ghasts, most golems, grick, grimlocks, hook horrors, hydra, mimics, minotaurs, all oozes/puddings, otyughs, olwbears, purple worms, quaggoths, remorhaz, rust monsters, salamanders and fire snakes, shadows, shambling mounds, the Tarrasque (lulz), trolls, water weirds, xorn, and most zombies) still exists. And that's not even counting the creatures that are just severely weaker at range, compared to totally helpless.
People are also concerned that requiring you to retool your entire game so that vertical movement isn't a major advantage and 100% of your encounters are ranged/flying is a bit much. Particularly because if you fail to do this, it encourages awkward strategies that constantly highlight one PC to the detriment of everyone else's enjoyment.
Beyond that, though, if you want to let bird men in your game and then build the game around them, go for it. Obviously many people (including the AL) will not be allowing them unless there's a very compelling story reason, rather than just the standard impetus to hop on some silly splatbook power creep.
CCS wrote:
RCanine wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
People are also ignoring that unless the aarakocra is flying they move slower than most races (other than dwarves) as their ground speed is 25, not 30. Also an aarakocra can't fly if they wear medium or heavy armor which limits their effective class choices.
Maybe in a few weeks I'll be able to tell you more as one of my players is going to be changing characters from a dragonborn fighter to an aarakocra monk. He'll be level 6 so we're past the level 1 range (and over level 5 where if we had a wizard in the party they could be using fly, but not high enough for the druid to take a flying shape) so can't retroactively determine how the encounters and play before the party hit level 5 would have been altered but for most of it there wouldn't have been any disruption that I can think of.
We're playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen and most encounters have at least some ranged attacks and most without were mostly against beasts which the druid (a gnome) used speak with animals and in most cases got them to not fight the party. Many of the combat encounters have also been inside where flight wouldn't be any more of an advantage than staying back on the ground to fire a bow or cast a spell. Even at first level they had to deal with flying enemies that could have kept the aarakocra busy, and without one meant it was up to the party to use ranged attacks to fight, which in their case was mostly thrown weapons and the druid and cleric spells at the time. The rogue in the party didn't join until around level 4 and has a bow.
Since the aarakocra joining is a melee character it also negates the whole "fly to avoid being hit" concern many have shown. Being a monk also makes him faster than the rest of the party even on the ground (at level 6 his monk movement puts him at 40 instead of 25, or the rest of the party's 30), so his flight will be mostly useful for out of combat or to move in to melee faster.
As others stated I'm not sure why flight ability at level 1 is any more powerful than at a higher level so why push it off? Darkvision is a 2nd level spell so should no PC's have it until 3rd level to keep it in balance so casters of races without darkvision can get the same ability at the cost of limited resources? What about classes without any fly ability, or darkvision ability to compensate for their race not having them? Monks by 6th level also get their unarmed and monk weapon attacks to do more damage and count as magical weapons so they don't even have to rely on the DM to provide a magical weapon as loot like other classes, does this make them overpowered? Sure it's not at 1st level but again it's a fairly unique trait that's not shared by other classes or races.
D&D isn't an MMO, there's likely no PvP so why should character's all be totally equal in all respects? Isn't the point of a team-based cooperative game to play different characters with different abilities so they each get their moments to shine and other times where they'll need to rely on other characters to help them. Yes flying at level 1 can change the dynamics that some are used to planning for, and yes there are situations where it can be a great advantage, but it can also be a disadvantage in some situations, while in most situations it's no more or less powerful than any other ability. Any ability could become a problem and yes an inexperienced DM is more likely to cause it to happen but that's true with more than just flight. Personally I encourage my players to get creative and come up with ways to deal with encounters other than through hack & slash and flight could be useful for that.
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
mellored wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the Aarakocra cannot wear medium or heavy armour while flying. This is means their AC isn't going to be great, not to mention the fact that there is no cover while in the air and you will be drawing all the attention while you are the lone object in the sky.
RCanine wrote:
Grazel wrote:
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
mellored wrote:
danyc wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
danyc wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
BRJN wrote:
mellored wrote:
you conflate all the time flying with all the time useful. it's not always useful.
if i had a primaraly outside campaign, like dark sun, i would reduce their dex bonus to +1. but for most campaigns, flight isn't usefull often enough. and i can just add a an ensaring strike archer or kobold gluepot now and then to keep the fear of falling high.
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
it cost 50 gold to resurrect a familiar. 300 to resurrect a PC.
mellored wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
mellored wrote:
Flying PCs are strong, very strong. Darkvision is typically only as powerful as a 2cp torch, or a level 1 at-will cantrip which at least one of your party should have anyway. Many of the other racial abilities are not comparable.
What I would do to balance this flight is give disadvantage to attack rolls while flying or advantage to saves, unless a DC 20 "stable hover" dex check is performed. A wizard's fly spell should grant you more maneuverability and perfect hovering (at the cost of the spell slot and concentration).
Flying creatures need to rest, and eat. I would make this creature need to rest 10 hours instead of 8, and have to roll constitution checks or strength checks to fly for any length of time or great distances.
It would still be terrific fun, but also grounded in both balance terms and realism.
It's a pity that wizards didn't include ability score penalties, because this would be a terrific opportunity to use a -2 CON because birds have to have light weight bones to fly, which are more brittle. I would also impose not only no medium or heavy armor, but no light armor as well, while flying. Or have a progressive penalty to flight duration as DC checks based on how much weight you are carrying. Even completely unencumbered there should be a practical limit to how far the character can fly, and it could be based on their proficiency bonus or perhaps their strength. Meaning you wouldn't want to dump strength.
If people don't realize it's powerful to have at-will flight at level 1, ask yourselves why dragon sorcerers only get their wings at level 14, and storm sorcerers at level 18. Why? Because always on flight is great. But instead of banning flying races I would give them serious negatives to balance them out. Such as no dex bonus or stat bonuses of any kind, and maybe even a -2 con penalty. If they want to hover they need to use an action to do that. If they attack while flying it's at disadvantage. Stuff like that.
I think magical flight or sorcerous wings or the fly spell should grant superior flight with hover and no penalties to do other actions mid-air. I would add a feat to get rid of those penalties for this race, just as I would add one or two feats for dragonborn to grow their wings (without becoming dragon sorcerors).
DaomSlayer wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
RCanine, is your argument that flying is OP because you choose to run your game in such away that it becomes so?
There's got to be a point where all of the dudes saying, "flight is overpowered because X" begin to realize that all those corner case, irregularly occuring X's do not actually break the game but instead only add to the dynamic fun of adventuring when they do come up.
---
IMNSHO, I get the impression from some that the issues with flight stem from a fear of the players and what they might do to "ruin the story" (whatever that even means). And that's unfortunate.
Has anyone whose saying "Aarakocra's are broken" actually played with one for an extended period of time? If not then all this shouting is the same thing I heard when they were first released. This thread wasn't intending to get the same arguments rehashed but instead hear what people who'd actually played with the race had to say.
JohnLynch wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
danyc wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
RCanine wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
mellored wrote:
RCanine wrote:
SirAntoine wrote:
I think the Aarakocra would be okay if their flight speed was reduced to 20 feet. The fact that they can move a lot faster than wood elves is just ridiculous.
danyc wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
danyc wrote:
I am wrong.
Me.
I'm the one who's wrong, hyperbolic, absurd, misinterptiring, and nitpicky.
No one else is allowed to be wrong but ME!!!
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RCanine wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
RCanine wrote:
We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
danyc wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Would it be okay if an official half-ghost race had the ability to become ethereal at will, float over any surface and pass through any barrier (except maybe force)?
Would any DM suggesting that this is too powerful of a feature for a 1st level character be simply a poor unimaginative DM?
Would we expect a DM to adjust to the times and perhaps include a force cage around the end goal of every scenario or an secret army of etherial guardians, just in case bob wants to play that half-ghost rogue he's always been dreaming of?
Can there not be a base set of assumptions for a typical game that doesn't include an ever growing menagerie of player abilities that negate all reasonable expectations to the point there's no possible way to prepare any scenario without taking the explicit configuration of the adventuring party into account?
Discuss.
danyc wrote:
If a DM is not himself a piece-of-tofu, after the first time the aaracockra character negates his goon squad by flying over them, the goon squad will get equipped with ranged weapons (if outdoors). And with Reach weapons (if indoors). There is a fair chance they can hold a Polearm straight up and jump when the aaracockra flies by, maybe getting a hit and possibly causing him to lose control and crash. This would also be a good time to Investigate / History whether anybody has invented the bola in the campaign world.
At any rate, doing something when faced with attack from the air is better for morale than just standing there like you have lead-lined boots and taking hits. And the smug PCs will have that smirk wiped off their faces when they see what Team BBEG can do.
BRJN wrote:
BRJN wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
Probably already been said (many times), but also spells. Even at 1st level you are likely to run into a spell caster. Sleep is 1st level and has a range of 90'. Good news is you will wake up when you hit the ground. Bad news is you are probably dead.
danyc wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Though if anyone is running an animated puppet race in their game, I'm in.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
danyc wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
RCanine wrote:
danyc wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
My surprise at the devs okaying a flying at-will race from first level comes from the Druid shapeshifting ability having flying speed forms locked until eighth level. I mean, given the CR caps of the forms, low level flying creatures are probably more fragile and less useful to allow an entire party to negotiate obstacles, being able to carry less than a aarakocra could, so why not allow flying beasts at third level with the rest of the beast forms?
CraggleRock wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
CraggleRock wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
Another point, in Princes of the Apocalypse, there are 4 above ground hideouts for the 4 cults, 4 underground temples for the cults, 4 deeper areas of dungeon for the cults, and the Fane of the Eye (also some other locations/side treks,etc.). Traveling above ground is part of the campaign, and in some adventures it helps to be able to fly, but for the most part 90% of the actual adventure will take place inside structures that will not give an Aarakocra the chance to stretch his or her wings. Even if flight is overpowered (which I don't think), I really don't see it being broken when 90% of the campaign will not even let the PC take advantage of it. This is most likely true for most campaigns where adventurers have to go into caves, tombs, dungeons, castles, etc.
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
If flying intelligent creatures are common (think Dragon in addition to Aaracockra), then most fighting parties should have some way to deal with them - even if only "hide under a tree / behind a rock'.
If flying intelligent creatures are rare, then the PCs will get strategic surprise for a while.
If the PCs start to get a reputation for having a flying intelligent creature along, likely opponents will start to take precautions.
One of those precautions might be standing orders: 'Everybody shoot at the flying guy first. Keep at it until he falls out of the sky.'
If the PCs are facing a BBEG and his minions, the BBEG will certainly want to re-equip his people to deal with their opponents. BBEG will also rebuild / move his lair to prevent Flight from being used aginst him.
If the PCs are facing an Assassin, he will be completely cognizant of their abilities and take precautions to nullify / reduce them.
If the PCs move someplace where nobody has ever heard of them nor heard of intelligent flying creatures, they get the benefits of strategic surprise again.
So in short: if intelligent flying creatures are rare, the world changes as the PCs and DM adapt to each other.
Wuzzard wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
"ChrisCarlson wrote:
danyc wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
danyc wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Excuse me, if I am not wrong, the pain in the neck about this matter is the "starcraft effect" (where flying units can be attacked by many terrestrial troops).
My opinion is to give a different XP reward if there is special circustamces, for example the barbarian can attack the goblins archers (with poisonous arrows) who shoot from the top of the trees. Maybe a XP reward like the equivalent one to survive a trap. (And lower XPs rewards if PCs can use a extra adventage like firearms).
This "starcraft effect: protoss zealots vs zerg mustalik" may be very important, not only in the rpg game, but for a future D&D skirmishes warbands miniatures game.
MechaPilot wrote:
danyc wrote:
Grazel wrote:
Flight is only "Overpowered" (i.e. useful), in combat if you are in a situation where you have...
1: opponents with shorter range
2: no allies blocking enemy movement.
3: vertical room but not horizontal room (i.e. a 30x30x30 room)
If opponents have the same range, flying just puts you at danger of falling.
If there are allies blocking enemy movement, any ranged character can do it.
If there is horizonatal room, any ranged character can do it.
IMO: That's pretty rare for all 3 things to happen at once. Even in an all bird/all ranged/kiting party (which avoids #2). But that gives you a different set of issues, like no one with darkvision.
That's probably the real test. Make an all bird party, run though a campaign and see how they do.
Other benifits:
Grappling dropping people, though that's plenty risky, since they can grapple you back, and you both fall.
And for avoiding ground traps and some difficult terrain.
As well as some utililty, about the same as find familiar offers.
mellored wrote:
danyc wrote:
RCanine wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
RCanine wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
danyc wrote:
I still don't see how flight is overpowered at first level.
Yes, flight is certainly beneficial (as are Fey Ancestry, Lucky, and several other racial traits). Flight is a mode of movment, therefore the benefit that flight offers is simply one of being able to move.
- You can ignore difficult terrain and short-cut overland obstacles for yourself. You may or may not, depending on your character's Strength and the obstacle in question, be able to do this for the rest of the party as well.
- You can potentially fly above enemies. Whether you can or cannot fly out of their melee reach or missile range is generally a function of the ceiling height, enemies, and enemies' weapons variables.
- You can ignore traps that require you to walk upon the ground to activate them. Naturally, that assumes that you are flying. As I'm typing this, I see several birds outside of my apartment building, hopping about and pecking at the patches of re-seeded grass. Additionally, living in a lakes area, I have had the experience of having to wait in traffic while ducks cross a street (and I don't mean a train of ducklings, although I have seen that too). Clearly, things that can fly do not always fly.
And that's basically all it does. Again, I just don't see where the "that's too powerful" mentality comes from regarding 1st level flight.
mellored wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
RCanine wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
You guys are funny.
They banned Aarakocra for AL because they know what they're doing. Because it's way OP.
Case closed.
DaomSlayer wrote:
Why not could it be gradually? The prequisites: only light load. (googbye armour). He couldn´t fly really, but to make a str check like jump skill to make a effect like the spell "feather fall", and a jump bonus (but the prequisite, the wings have to be totally spreaded out, and that would mean a size bonus for enemies who shoot him). In higher level he could glade, and later to fly.
Why needs some rules about injured wings.
* Another matter, linked with this. What about flying sentiend creatures could be PC's allies? For example to carry a little leaf with a magic rune for a teletransportation spell.
I was under the impression that Adventure League doesn't allow most of the Unearthed Arcana articles into the game because they are still in the "Testing" phase of the game and want player's reactions on them, like how we received the Artificer but then it's going to be taken back to the drawing board?
Diffan wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
I think another issue at present, WRT why AL might have banned aarakocra, involves a phenomenon to which I quote Louis C.K. a lot.
In fact I decided to put it in my signature (see below).
Whatever, guy. Believe whatever you like.
If they made a PC race that had feathers or leathery scales but couldn't fly, they wouldn't have banned it for AL. Or needed to.
Unrestricted at-will flight is not balanced for tier 1. Nor for tier 2, since wizards can't fly for more than a half hour a day. Tier 3, but not for wizards, only for sorcerers.
When do druids get the ability to turn into birds again?
Level 1, riggggght?
Whoops, nope, flying forms are tier 2 animals.
Case closed. The hammer of logic has fallen upon you.
DaomSlayer wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2yk9ky/handling_aarakocra_as_a_dm/
erdana, arial, sans-serif; font-size:14px">"I don't think its a horrible concept, just not totally balanced. From what I can tell, they are a popular race among players. I think its great that WotC is making official conversions for monster races. That being said, they are banned in Adventures League so even WotC knows they're not balanced."
http://www.encodeddesigns.com/mastering-dungeons-when-races-attack/
"First and foremost, the D&D AL administrators were the ones who banned the aarakocra as a playable race, not the WotC staff. And I applaud them for that decision. I applaud them as a DM of D&D AL adventure content, and as a writer of that same content. But even as a player, I have to thank them. I get that players love toys, and they get grumpy when toys are put in the window but they’re not allowed to touch them.
But for the overall health and welfare of the D&D AL campaign, the administrators have to be ever-vigilant about these issues. “What’s wrong with flying PCs?” is easily answered, even though grumpy people being denied toys might not like the answers."
DaomSlayer wrote:
Hey, Damage an o Miss, your second quote contradicts the first. Ruh roh!
ChrisCarlson wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
A wizard being able to cast a spell using a precious spell slot to situationally and very temporarily attain the ability that another PC has at level 1 has, with additional restrictions, is not balanced.
Let's say the SUPER DUPER FLY spell gave the wizard true flight for 24 hours per casting. No concentration, but self-only. Cannot be dispelled either. But it was 3rd level.
Why wouldn't that be balanced, if at-will flight is balanced?
Note, you lot are arguing that at-will flight is fair and balanced compared to a +1 to hit or to spell save DCs, not me. Or to 35 base speed, or darkvision (2cp for a torch), or Light cantrip. Yeah, real balanced. A strength based PC wearing heavy armor couldn't even compete with a dex-based flyer in terms of ability to hit each other at range, since a long-bow's range and damage is much better than anything throwable. And arrows run out, meaning a flying warlock with Eldritch Spear could easily kite any ranged army and kill each and every one by attacking them beyond their arrows' range, directly above them.
The wizard still needs to spend one precious 3rd level slot, and has to wait until level 5 to do so, and use an action to cast it each morning, plus has to rest.
That's what an aarakocra can can do all day, even though he didn't have to wait until level 5 to do it. And that's just to be ON PAR with SUPER DUPER FLY spell.
Now, add back in the restrictions to make it regular Fly:
Duration : 10 minutes. Whoops, that lava pit that would take more than 10 minutes' worth of travel is pretty wide and hot. That mountain is pretty hard to climb, that chasm is filled with alligators. Whoops, that desert has tons of poisonous scorptions crawling around, that dungeon floor has traps and snakes everywhere, that obstacle is hiding an ogre behind it. That locked tower is impregnable except for the entrance at the top that has a dispell magic field around it. That castle is covered in archers who, with a single arrow, can make you fall to your death, forcing you to memorize Feather Fall and spend both a level 1 slot and another level 3 slot to even TRY to get back up, and maybe have it happen again and again.
There is no debate here. At-will unrestricted flight is equivalent to SUPER DUPER UNSTOPPABLE LIMITLESS FLY spell, but costs no class choice, no levels or experience gained, can bypass any and all obstacles that are on the ground, without a second's thought.
It is beyond ridiculous that we even have to explain how unlimited super duper fly is way overpowered.
On top of that, a wizard would be a downgrade from a flying PC for movement, except insomuch as he would be spending level 2 spell slots to be invisible instead of level 3 slots to fly. So those 3rd level slots will be used for more fireballs (from the air, from an invisible location until the invis disappears. but then cast it again to get away, no biggie).
DaomSlayer wrote:
For the AL, you have to be ready to make the framework as stable and not corruptive as possible. Even though you may as a AL-DM bash a player, who is clearly exploiting rules and such, it's a waste of time doing so. And the other players in the group only have limited means to punish those players.
Let's make a bit of a quiz. Let's say we have a Aarakocra, who says: I don't care about disadvantage. He pick up a longbow and shoots from 600' in the air, afterwards fly 20' above, so he won't get attacked. Then next turn he moves in again, shoots, move out. With 50' fly speed, it will be hard to outrun that Aarakocra. The only terrain you have is a hilly grassland with only two feet tall rocks at the biggest, since the modul you're supposed to play has this terrain.
The enemies you have are goblins riding on worgs, which would normally love this open terrain. The level of the party and campaign is about 5.
How would you, as a AL-DM deal with this? If you find a way without being arbitrary, your arguments will be sound. If you need at least 5 minutes to think about it, you just wasted 5 minutes of 6 people for one player alone.
AL is not like a game at home. So they're right to ban everything, which will be easily cause disturbance easily without much thinking.
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
mellored wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
I already said in this thread that I'm playing the only PC without darkvision in a game. And it HAS come up as an issue. I can't sneak at night.
MechaPilot wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
my owl familiar has at-will flight at level 1, in addition to dark vison.
pixies arn't even level 1, and they can be have flight with invisibility.
so.. not a high level ability.
DaomSlayer wrote:
The race was probably banned from organized play due to lazy adventure designers. It's much easier to just sit back and pump out adventures without having to actually spend time thinking, and thinking is required if you have an Aarakocra in the group. They aren't OP, but you can't be lazy about design, either.
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
A question, let's imagine it is a first level character... only a point of damage would be enough to avoid flight?
* Let's guess the aakocra is exploring a dungeons, and she fall in a pitfall trap. Then she uses the wings to try grip on the walls... with a Str check could she avoid totally damage by fall?
* Other idea is flyier humanoid can only glide, but a Str check to ascend (like jump skill, but the prequsite wouldn´t floor but totally spread out).
* What about little humanoids with flyiers mounts, or magic man-lifiting kites?
* How much space does an aakocra need to start a flight? Would Str check be necesarry each time he moves wings to ascend to higher height?
RCanine wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
My main problem with Aarakockra is their 50 ft. speed. I think if their flight was limited to 20 feet per round, they'd be more balanced.
the reason is that it's lopsided. flight is either extremly usefull, or worthless, rarely something in between.
imagine a barbarian rage that gave immunity to just piercing damage. it's auto-win for a few encounters, but useless against others. same with creatures immune to non-magic weapons.
Farmer42 wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
I'll post this question again.
For those who think it's overpowered, which of the following do you think would be balanced?
Fly 50, +1 Dex, +1 Wis
Fly 50, +1 Dex,
Fly 50, (no stats modifier).
Fly 50, -1 Con
Fly 50, -1 Con, -1 Str
Fly 50, -2 Con, -1 Str
Fly 50, -2 Con, -2 Str
...
mellored wrote:
SleepsInTraffic wrote:
mellored wrote:
RCanine wrote:
IMHO, I do not believe you will ever get an answer to that question for some Chicken Little types around here. Nothing can "balance" at-will flight because to them at-will flight is broken beyond measure. I believe this mentality stems from a few possible factors: 1) Perhaps having hung out for too long in white rooms where flying PCs are always in perfect scenarios keyed to their particular boon. 2) They might play in a player vs. DM adversarial environment and/or where there is a competitive relationship between the players. 3) They have little to no experience writing/running games as a DM and therefor fear what they do not understand. And maybe even 4) they know what kind of abusive shenanigans they would try to pull as a flying player and so hope to control others in order to prevent the possibility that they might try the same.
<Puts notebook down on coffee table, leans back in armchair, and informs patient that their time is up for this session...>
At-will flight is fine at level 14.
But it's not fine at level 1.
Because it's way overpowered.
To reiterate, what at-will flight is as a racial ability is strictly better than giving the Fly spell as a cantrip.
If that were balanced, why not let High Elves take it as one of their racial cantrips?
If flying in your full form with full HP were balanced, why can't druids maintain their normal shape HP when they turn into a bird or other flying form, and why are flying forms set to a much higher level?
If flying around all day long is so not powerful, why did they drastically reduce the Fly spell's duration from potentially several hours' worth of unimpeded travel in 2nd edition, to 5th edition's 10 minutes per casting plus concentration?
You need to keep these things in mind when you are trying to discuss whether something is overpowered. If a warlock could get an invocation at level 2 to fly at-will, why shouldn't he take it? This is one of the simplest things. Giving a character the ability to fly is a huge benefit.
You asked for a source on that, then when one was found, you move the goalposts and claim it doesn't matter anyway. No, in your home games, it doesn't. But don't be surprised when PCs keep taking that race. And saving their 3rd level spell slots for Fireball, and their concentration slot for Invisibility. Don't say we didn't warn you.
Movement is a mechanic. Being able to fly is both quantitatively and qualitatively very different from walking, swimming, climbing, jumping. Birds have disadvantages that they lack arms, opposable digits, strong bones, armored hides. This bird from is at least a CR +6 form. And it's not balanced to give that to one player when the rest are stuck picking from CR + 0.
Unlimited natural Flight is strictly better than every other racial ability in the PHB. Period. This is the simple truth. I'm done arguing here. Most DMs would not allow one PC to fly around all the time, pretty soon all his players will take that, or even most of them, and then the Fly spell which is one of the iconic spells of D&D, will be strictly superceded and obsoleted and obviated.
Ask any child, if they wouldn't LOVE to be able to fly like Superman. Go ahead. Do it.
Edited by Orc_Barrons: Inappropriate Content violates the Code of Conduct: http://company.wizards.com/conduct'
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
I have proven the claim many times. If you compare at-will flight to the Fly spell, even if you could cast the fly spell an unlimited amount of times per day, it would still be mechanically inferior.
And since there ample evidence that the designers considered Fly having several hours' worth of flight like it did in 2nd edition, to make mincemeat of the exploration pillar of the game, they reduced it drastically to 10 minutes per casting. Which makes unlimited flight way overpowered, for the same reasons as that ridiculously long duration in 2nd ed was too powerful.
I played a 2nd edition wizard for many years, and yes, as much as I loved having that amount of air superiority, the 5e nerf to the fly spell was much needed.
If you ignore the salient points of a rational argument, why should anyone continue to debate you?
You lost. Case closed. I don't care if you refuse to listen to reason, you are beyond convincing no matter how much I try to educate you. Why bother teaching unteachable people who don't listen to reason and refuse to consider contrary evidence?
If unlimited flight duration wasn't considered overpowering and trivializing the exploration pillar of 5e, why did they reduce the duration to ten minutes?
Owl familiars still have unlimited flight.
I wonder if it would be better if they didn't have 6 limbs. If their arms and wings were the same limb. To fly, an Aarakockra couldn't hold anything in its upper arms, and the only weapon it would have available to it while flying were its claws.
That way, you have the exploration bonus, but not an unreachable death turret in combat.
mellored wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Why is flight broken at 1st level but not at 14th? What changes in the way the game is played to make that premise true?
Edited by Orc_Barrons: Inappropriate Content violates the Code of Conduct: http://company.wizards.com/conduct'
DaomSlayer wrote:
Chris, it seems that DaomSlayer actually did answer you question while replying to someone else in that it was said that "by 14th level teleporation comes into play," though I am completely at a loss for how long distance travel being an option changes whether or not there is a problem with being able to fly about... or really how the two are related at all.
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
At-will flight is achievable for halfling and gnome beast master rangers at 3rd level, with a Pteranodon companion that they can ride.
DaomSlayer wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
AL made a ruling, and so did the designers of the PHB :
Unlimited at-will flight is an appropriate ability for 14th level PCs to have, but not for first level.
There is literally nothing left to say on the topic.
DaomSlayer wrote:
Meh. I'll go ahead and say that my arguments against Aarakockra are subjective. It just doesn't feel right to me that Birdman Joe can fly rings around his companions at 1st level. Sure, maybe it is totally balanced mechanically. But it doesn't feel balanced to me. And if other people on this forum are allowed to feel that 4e was samey, then I'm allowed to feel that Aarakockra who can fly at the speed of sound are overpowered.
Plus I think they look hella dumb. I'm cool with dragonborn, but bird-furries? No. Plus their name is hard to spell correctly. Like aasimar. Eff the people who threw those random syllables together.
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
mellored wrote:
I see you snuck one in after I responded...
DaomSlayer wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
To me it seems that at will flight 50' is game changing, not overpowered. At first level, it is still pretty easy for the Aarokocra to go unconscious or die. The Aarokocra will still need to land and walk on the ground to go into buildings and dungeons. It can still be surprised or fired upon by magic or missile fire.
It is actually pretty awesome design by WotC to include a flying race because it does open up new options and changes the game.
For those that don't want to "deal" with it, it is easy enough to not allow them as PCs.
Personally, from our games and actual play experience, it is awesome, but not overpowered. It gives some advantages, but not having darkvision, not having the ability to see further and better than other races, having only a 25' move on land, still provide enough disadvantages for our games.
Only 1 player even wanted to try the race, and none of us (the Aarokocra player, the other players and me, the DM, think that the Aarokocra is overpowered or steals any of the spotlight).
Rhenny wrote:
Rhenny wrote:
I guess one plus is that I can now make Goku in D&D. Just use bird-thing stats but call him a human who can use his ki to fly.
Rhenny wrote:
Wuzzard wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because personal attacks are a violation of the Code of Conduct.
Further discussion in this manner will result in administrative action against your account.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
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Chuckle-worthy stuff that one learns coming to D&D's official site, from the in-house "balance experts":
Hawkeye is like totally balanced with Ironman!
Flying isn't a huge advantage over walking!
Walking is just as good as flying, because I have this bow here and I can try to, like, shoot Ironman out of the sky with an arrow while he rains down fire on me and my group.
What happens if Ironman flies up beyond the range of my arrows, then back down to attack? Then back up? Then back down? And dodge around until Hawkeye runs out of arrows. Awww, we didn't think of that.
At least Hawkeye in Ultron is self-aware of his own meager powers compared to Ironman and the rest.
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Damage An O Miss Slayer, I'll just keep posting this since it somehow "accidently" keeps getting "missed":
Please expalin how the game changes, to allow at-will flight to suddenly become acceptable at 14th level, when it is supposedly broken earlier in the campaign.
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Flight isn't broken. I've seen it as early as 1st level (at-will) and then on and it's only come up marginally in the games. I'm shocked this discussion has been going on for so long!
Do you remember Faith Connor from the videogame "Mirror Edge"? With flight movement to go trough some zones would too easy for a great XPs reward. If characters from "Assasin's Creed" (and another games with "parkour movement" could flight they wouldn´t need to climb.
Have you thought about a flying PC carring a bomb (or a stone with a magic rune of fireball spell) to throw to enemies? Or with a magic rune of teletransportation. The flyier could go to the goal and after to use TP for the rest of the group.
This isn´t only the aarakocra, this is also about a future d20 superheroes or a d20 Future where 1st level PCs could be too powerful for a standar D&D game. We need module or dial to change the XP reward if the challegens are too easy for PCs by some special extra help.
DaomSlayer wrote:
Here's my 3rd level feral halfling ranger and his pteranadon.
He basically comes from a dinosaur populated Land of the Lost style area of our campaign setting.
Back from RL fun, I'm sure you're all thrilled to see me 
mellored wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
I don't think it's OP at all. Different and better in some regards and in some situations? Sure. But overpowered? Nah.
Do those of you that do, think that an encounter of "regular" racial PCs against flying enemies is an OP encounter and not fair? No of course not. It happens all the time. So why would it be OP and game breaking if a PC or two has the flight capability? All it means is that the DM has to account for it in their planning and encounter(s).
ChrisCarlson wrote:
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
mellored wrote:
danyc wrote:
mellored wrote:
danyc wrote:
mellored wrote:
Also, many birds can actually stay aloft for days. A few can stay up for years.
Some can sleep, eat, and mate in mid air. So they only land to lay eggs.
mellored wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
mellored wrote:
danyc wrote:
mellored wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
danyc wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
mellored wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Ive removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Synjin wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
When the half-orc climbs up to the top of the cliff using his high athletics skill, and lowers a rope for the rest of the PCs, that's cool.
When an aarakocra flies up to the top of the cliff, and lowers a rope for the rest of the PCs, that's just broken. BAN HAMMER!
danyc wrote:
Ive removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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MechaPilot wrote:
danyc wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct. Additionally, discussion of moderation in the forums is considered forum disruption and is a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
Play nice people.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
mellored wrote:
Synjin wrote:
Synjin wrote:
I would have thought this thread would have tried to quantify what flying does - like, in what situations is it an auto win? And compile some situations?
Instead it seems to be "It's powerful!" people who don't actually refer to how it's powerful, then people encouraging them by trying to argue "It's not powerful!" by arguing the proofs the other guy didn't provide to begin with.
People who just say "It's powerful" without any emperic proof are really just not that sharp, guys! As the old quote goes, you can't win an argument with them because they'll just bring you down to their level, and they are better at that level than you are.
All too often when a character is the only one with flight he/she ends up alone. A character by themselves withouth support is in probably the most dangerous situation they can be. Focus fire without the support of the rest of the team can spell the end for almost any character of any class of any level. Also the rest of the party will never know what happened till they walk into if they find out at all.
Noon wrote:
Wow you really do go right after anyone who doesn't immediately agree with you.
LordCorwin wrote:
Not all demihumans have darkvision. And choosing to forget to apply something as fundamental as lighting conditions in your games is a choice. But you shouldn't assume others make the same mistake. And don't you think having an elf or a warforged or whatever doesn't sleep character in the party affects the common trope of night ambushes or catching the characters with their pants down? Stuff like that. I think it does.
Personally, I think aaracokra are underpoered—they should also have damage on a miss for a racial ability. ;)
Note: I'm chopping this into bits because the posts are getting way too long.
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Rocs. This is D&D.
danyc wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Synjin wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
mellored wrote:
Synjin wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
Ive removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the Report Post button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
Noon wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
DaomSlayer wrote:
mellored wrote:
Well sure you can fly, but the disadvantage is you have to run around looking like this.
shazrand wrote: