The scenario.
The wood elves have the ball and will attempt a pass play, chucking a long pass to a receiver deep in the Orc's backfield. If the pass is completed, the receiver will have to pass two defenders to run the ball into the end zone and score. The Orc defenders and the windy clunate may affect the pass, catch, and final run.
Assume you are the DM and control the Orc team. Assume 2 of your players control the Elf Thrower and the Elf Receiver.
Assume that we only use basic ability checks, advantage, and disadvantage (for simplicity's sake).
The Player of the Elf Thrower declares his pass attempt. The Elf Receiver has readied his action to dash once he catches the ball. So far, your Orc Defenders have reactions they can spend to try to intercept or block the pass, intercept & tackle the Receiver, and blitz the Thrower. The Orcs' "passive defense" is 15.
Now, who do you as DM ask to make checks? How do you get a resolution? What factors affect the checks you call for? How do you roll?
The passer needs to make a Dex(Athletics) check to pass the ball the correct distance and the correct direction. If he has been magically enhanced, he may gain disadvantage. If the wind is powerful enough, he may have disadvantage.
If the passer succeeds on his check, the receiver then needs to make an opposed dex(athletics) check, with advatage since it is being thrown to him, against the orc defenders. If he succeeds, he catches the ball. If the orcs succeed, they intercept.
Just a quick, in class rundown.
I would have gone simpler. The passer makes that Dex check. If successful, it's caught. Then the orcs make an opposed Str check against the receiver to take him down.
I'm thinking now that I'd have the orcs first make an opposed Dex check against the receiver to see where the orcs actually catch up to him, if at all.
I would make a series of Str (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics) vs Str (Athletics) or Dex (Acrobatics) contests to successfully make a:
- pass/sack,
- reception/interception,
- touchdown/tackle.
EDIT: OR, to make it more interesting:
- passer success = completion; defender success = incomplete pass (knocked down or thrown away); defender success by X margin = sack,
- receiver success = completion; defender success = incomplete pass (knocked down or good defensive positioning); defender success by X margin = interception,
- runner success = touchdown; defender success = tackle; defender success by X margin = fumble.
EDIT #2: PLUS, if your players like the idea of getting "success by X margin":
- passer success by X margin = completion AND roughing the passer (or other foul/penalty against defense)...
- receiver success by X margin = complete pass and automatic touchdown (no third contest, defender is outmaneuvered, slips, falls, etc.)...
- runner success by X margin = touchdown; runner success = 1st down...
EDIT #3: You could replace "success by X margin" with a roll of natural 20 on the check (unless, of course, both contestants roll a natural 20).
Is it important to have the defenders making active checks? Or ok to use their passive scores?
bawylie wrote:
bawylie wrote:
bawylie wrote:
I think part of what I'm driving at is "How do you make these decisions?"
I mean say it's the thrower's turn. Does he make checks because it's his turn? Do the interception attempts use an opposed roll or a passive score? If they use a reaction, do they roll? If they don't, do you go passive?
What guidelines or rules of thumb do you use to determine who rolls and what they roll? Especially in a situation where multiple "players" are attempting to affect the action.
It makes most sense to me that the person who is trying to do something is the one who rolls.
As for who does what and when, I think I'd have everyone declare their intentions at the same time and have everyone at simultaneously. So:
orc LB declares he's rushing the pocket.
Orc safety says he's gonna cover the elf receiver.
elf reciever says he's gonna go long
Qb says he's gonna pass to the elf.
Then we do whatever rolls are needed, and if the ball is caught I think we go to round 2 of this play.
Elf tries to outrun the safety, the safety tries to tackle the elf.
Some set up like this seems like it would be fun and chaotic.
I think only my last line really addresses your questions.
As a DM, I tend to make up a lot dice rules as I go (to avoid things like 3e grappling, and wasting time looking up rules), and I default to opposed skill or ability score check for any active attempt to do something.
It works for my group - or seems to, as my players never seem to argue rules with me, even when I have a demon pick up the halfling cleric, carry him around and throw him 40 feet up into the hands of another demon.
So uh, yeah. Whoever's trying something should likely roll something. Probably opposed, but not always.
That makes sense to me. If the runner is trying to outrun the safety, do you go for an opposed roll? Or an opportunity Attack?
Are you guided by process (for example) or situation? Or what?
Purpose of these questions and this example is not to argue who's right about how they adjudicate but to explore how people make adjudications overall. It seems to be a kind of gut thing. I don't know. Maybe some principles are involved like "person who's turn it is makes the roll" but I wonder if we have something more than that?
because i want the ability of both the reciever and safety to be counted (to seem like they count), it would be an opposed check for the one to outrun the other. If he doesn't, the safety gets to attempt his tackle. Another opposed check.
Or the safety could kneecap him with a crowbar. Attack roll, cause there are clear rules for that. But then that should lead to a trip attempt, cause why hit the bloke in the knee if he can then just run cleat to the enDzone? That's not fun. So the elf gets to make a Str save vs the damage dealt, or a number modified by the damage. Cause a save makes sense here to me, and means only one more die roll.
Don't make people roll too many dice. That's another of my rules.
Yeah but that seems like a lot of dice up there.
May be we need some clarity on the stakes of each roll. If the Receiver fails his Dex (Athletics) contest, the Defender halts his progress, but he retains posession. Another defender might come try to strip the ball or kneecap him. Or the first defender might proc the reaction kneecap Attack once the Receiver stops.
bawylie wrote:
Alright, so here the clunate is the issue that modified the pass. The receiver doesn't interact at all with the defenders and the movement rules govern the receiver's ability to score a TD.
(We all know I can't spell climate right? It keeps coming out clunate. Thanks, Obama.)
Under what circumstances would the defenders be able to affect the pass play? (Or is that how you set your DC?)
It's how I set the DC. I assumed that there is nothing particularly special about this play that makes it any harder than average except for the wind.
That's not a bad way to go. Get a better passive defense score if you want better off-turn defense.
bawylie wrote:
Satyrn wrote:
To me, in this scenario, i want to stimulate the process, or rather everyone's involvement in the play. I'm picturing the pass play as a full round of combat, rather than just a single attack . . .knowing -and dreading - that this would mean it would take hours upon hours to resolve a compete game. Oh hey! Just like a real football game 
Also, I should add I have never played or even seen bloodbowl.
It's worth considering that the more rolls there are, the more chances for failure there as things play out to the point where it may become unfair. Perhaps someone can break down the math.
A little late start, but here is my take on this.
First, define the ball as a thrown weapon with range statistics (20/40). The pass is an attack action vs. AC 10 (target wants to be hit) + 2 / intervening defensive player that can make a play on the ball. The catch is a contested Sleight of Hand between receiver and defenders (as a reaction?) and DC 10 (everybody misses). Successful pass means reciever has advantage, defenders disadvantage. Unsuccessful pass raises the DC gives advantage to defenders and disadvantage to receiver. An adjacent defender can give up his contested roll on the ball to gain a reaction to make an AoO (tackle) on the receiver after catching the ball.
Yeah, in the sim in my head, some of the many rolls wouldn't measure success or failure, but affect momentum. The D-line's opposed roll vs the O-line might give (dis)advantage against the Qb's throw attempt, or allow a sack opportunity, for example.
Yeah, football is a terrible scenario to show off my preference for simple adjudication. I've let players pin multiple monsters against the wall with a table using just a single opposed roll, for example. I think that's how I ruled that anyway. I can't remember for sure . . . Man I'm glad my players don't expect consistency from me.
More good stuff here. you don't really need to have played blood bowl to grok this - it's just a thought experiment.
Of course, if you don't play blood bowl, I hate you.
Now, I've played it TT and on the PC. The PC version moves a lot of the rolls behind the scenes, such as the pass roll, the exceed movement rolls, dodge rolls, etc. Gameplay on the PC involves deciding and executing the play while mentally assessing risks (so many rolls and you're bound to proc a failure). But by moving the process of rolling into the background, gameplay is considerably faster.
This is akin, I think, to lumping many factors into one roll. Above, Iserith set the pass DC to the Orc Defenders' passive defense score (that I arbitrarily decided up thread). Doing that could well account for the Defenders blocking & interception attempts, etc. they're always defending, so their passive defense is the DC to "get past" them.
If we do it this way, what do we lose? Is what we lose important? What we gain is speed. Do we gain fun?
If we parse it down into discreet actions, as some of you also suggest, what do we lose? Is that important? What do we gain? Do we gain fun?
Is there a fidelity to fun ratio worth considering? Or a process simulation to fun ratio? Maybe it's granularity to fun? What do you think?