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| #1ZardnaarDec 05, 2014 14:05:37 |
Good morning everyone. Right now I am designing some encounters ofr my session tomorow and I am tweaking some of the monsters in the MM. I also plan on buffing some of the Dragons so you do not have to use a Dragon 5 or 6 CRs above the party level to give them a decent fight.
My idea to buff some of the dragons is to add some lost abilities they used to have back in AD&D to the 5E ones. For example AC probably 2-3 points higher, caster levels, immunity to non magical weapons and maybe resistance to magical damage.
Tweaked mook type critters will have different equipmnent and/or abilty scores swapped around and/or racial abilities added to them such as a Hobgoblin Gladiator. CRs will be tweaked if the power up is extreme such as a large jump in damage or AC. Swapping out a great sword for a great axe or polearm not so much.
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| #2rampantDec 05, 2014 15:03:29 | I'd prefer more in-depth abilities involving dynamic responses and interesting effects. A lot of the monsters are kind HP sacks. Caster levels aren't very useful to a dragon once the fight starts because 9 times out of 10 their breath and claws will be more effective, Special magical abilities that are appropriate to their level on the other hand wouldn't have that problem. |
| #3RhennyDec 05, 2014 15:17:43 | In general, when I run my own campaign, I do like to use less monsters that are more powerful. I'm all for modifying. To me, the MM gives pretty simple base monsters that are easy to add to. I love giving class levels to monsters, spellcasting abilities to monsters, special features and even feats to monsters. Still, I don't usually plan encounters by deciding whether or not they will drain a party dry. I try to plan encounters that are right for the story with some surprises to keep it all interesting and less predictable.
I think dragons are ripe for a huge book of modifications, starting with giving each dragon different Legendary Actions. Heck, I'd love someone to write a book to present possible modifications to all monsters. Imagine how cool it would be to have that as a tool box. The DMG has a chart that lists all of the monster abilities, which is a start, but this is an area that can become an incredible DM accessory. |
| #4draegnDec 05, 2014 15:34:30 | I have humanoid monsters (orcs, goblins, trolls, etc) be able to do anything that a player character can do. I also use modified "old school" critical hit and fumbles. Humanoid monsters are not mindless.
As for dragons... we have changed their stats and abilities to the extreme. All dragons breath flames either hot or cold, all have venom, all spit acid and can use every part of their body as a weapon.
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| #5melloredDec 05, 2014 15:42:47 | Wheren't you just complaing about how powerful dragons where a weak ago? |
| #6FFSAADec 05, 2014 16:09:08 |
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| #7DaveDashDec 05, 2014 17:13:47 | I suggested over on that other forum that Dragons should get regen as a legendary action instead of perception. Apparently they had lair actions that did that in the play test. |
| #8IllithidbixDec 05, 2014 18:09:42 | If you have a competent, optimised party who know the rules very well as Zard' does:
Then I'd suggest stealing some of the attack and powers ideas from 4E, with attacks inflicting more conditions and being combined with mobility and forced movement.
Heresy I know, but challenging, interesting and fun monsters is something I believe 4E did very,very well. |
| #9iserithDec 05, 2014 18:15:46 | I find it's the situation that makes the challenge, not the monster. The monster helps, but to make something challenging requires considering everything all together.
I can challenge you with a group of zero-damage, 1-hp sea horses. |
| #10KentusDec 05, 2014 18:57:25 | Before raising the AC, you should rather just max out the HP instead. Not hitting things is pretty frustrating and if you begin to make more AC to diverse monsters, you'll end up making this a accuracy-race, which would pretty shitty for those players, who wants to play efficiently enough without caring too much.
A great way to make monsters tougher is: Don't adjust anything and just play them smarter. Had almost a wipe with only 2 kobolds and a trap.
And if the players are lucky or less dense than usual, you should feel delight for them. Had a dragon fight, which was more of an dragon encounter, since the paladin and the cleric had criticals, first a smite and afterwards a guiding lance at 2nd level, dragon decided to rather live. Not as interesting in an encounter, but damn enjoyable for the PCs. |
| #11THEMNGMNTDec 05, 2014 19:13:06 | Alternately, you can just throw out CR. It's just a number. You know best how to assemble a challenge for your players. You don't need a guideline to tell you that. In other words, what if CR is "training wheels" and you and your players have outgrown the need? |
| #12ZardnaarDec 05, 2014 19:37:41 |
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| #13ZardnaarDec 05, 2014 19:38:52 | Here is some I have been working on. Based of the NPC gladiator in the MM.
Hobgoblin Gladiator Medium Humanoid Lawful Evil Armor Class 17 (studded leather, shield,) Hit Points 112 (15d8+45) Speed 30 ft. Saving Throws Str +7, Dex +6, Con +6 Str 18 (+4), Dex 16 (+3), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 15 (+2) Skills Athletics+10, Intimidation +5 Senses passive Perception 11 Senses darkvision 60 ft, Languages Any one language (usually common Challenge 6 (2300 XP)
Brave. The Gladiator has advantage on saving throws against being frightened Brute. A melee weapon deals one extra dice of damage when the gladiator hits with it (included in the attack) Martial Advantage. Once per turn the Hobgoblin can deal an extra 14 (4d6) damage to a creature if it hits with a weapon attack if that creature is within 5 feet of an ally of the hobgoblin that isn’t incapacitated. Actions. Multiattack. The Hobgoblin Gladiator makes 3 melee attacks or two ranged attacks. Spear. Melee or ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5’, range 20/60ft, one target. Hit 11 (2d6+4) piercing damage, or 13 (2d8+4) piercing damage if used with 2 hands to make a melee attack. Shield Bash. Melee weapon attack, +7 to hit, reach 5’, one creature. Hit 9 (2d4+_4) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a medium or smaller creature, it must succeed on a DC 15 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
Elite Knight Medium Humanoid (any race) any alignment Armor Class 20 (plate, shield) Hit Points 126 (18d8+45) Speed 30 ft. Saving Throws Str +7, Con +6 Wis +5 Str 18 (+4), Dex 12 (+1), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 15 (+2), Cha 15 (+2) Skills Athletics+10, Intimidation +5 Senses passive Perception 12 Languages Any one language (usually common) Challenge 6 (2300 XP)
Martial Training. A melee weapon deals one extra dice of damage when the gladiator hits with it (included in the attack) Iron Will. The Elite Knight has advantage on wisdom saving throws. Actions. Multiattack. The Elite Knight makes 3 melee attacks or two ranged attacks. Longsword. Melee : +7 to hit, reach 5’, , one target. Hit 13 (2d8+4) slashing damage or Lance. Melee : +7 to hit, reach 5’, , one target. Hit 17 (2d12+4) slashing damage or Heavy Crossbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 100/400 ft, one target, Hit 6 (1d10) piecing damage. Shield Bash. Melee weapon attack, +7 to hit, reach 5’, one creature. Hit 9 (2d4+_4) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a medium or smaller creature, it must succeed on a DC 15 Strength saving throw or be knocked prone. Leadership (Recharges after a short or long rest). For one minute, the knight can utter a special command or warning whenever a non hostile creature that it can see witin 30’ of it makes an attack roll or a saving throw. The creature can add a 1d4 to its roll provided it can hear and understand the knight. A creature can benefit from only one Leasdership die at a time. This effect ends o the knight is incapacitated. Sniper Medium Humanoid (any race) any alignment Armor Class 16 (studded leather) Hit Points 112 (15d8+45) Speed 30 ft. Saving Throws Str +5, Dex +7, Con +6 Str 15 (+2), Dex 18 (+4), Con 16 (+3), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 15 (+2) Skills Stealth+10, Perception +4 Senses passive Perception 14 Languages Any one language (usually common Challenge 5 (1800 XP)
Sharpshooter. A ranged weapon deals one extra dice of damage when the gladiator hits with it (included in the attack) Sneaky. The Sniper has advantage on stealth skill checks.
Actions. Multiattack. The sniper makes two melee attacks or three ranged attacks. Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target, Hit 13 (2d8+4) piecing damage Swortsword. Melee or ranged Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5’, range 20/60ft, one target. Hit 11 (2d6+4) piercing damage |
| #14DLfanDec 05, 2014 20:03:11 |
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| #151eejitDec 06, 2014 2:24:11 | Just use the spellcasting variant and give them a good selection. Like Blink or Counterspell to use defensively, Dispel Magic and a Wall of X for general utility, Blindness for casters, Banish for melee and so on. |
| #16UngeheuerLichDec 06, 2014 2:38:58 | I was very successful adding some few class levels to monsters. A Rakshasa with 3 wizard levels was a beast. The MM is a good book, giving basic monsters. I don´t need 20 varieties of the same monsters, when adding a few class levels add a bunch of abilities that make sense. My biggest grief in 4e was monsters and PC classes to a lesser extend use 10 varieties of the same power... twin strike, dual strike (before nerf) careful attack before buff and the fighter variant. Monsters using 10 varieties of fireballs and other flame bolts... even swallow whole was different each time...
I believe the DMG talsk about adding class levels, just as in 3e. You can have a lot of varied monsters if you like, takes 2 minutes of work...
edit: or add a few racial traits as zardanar did. Seems he also didn´t need more than a few minutes to build his monsters... which seems like a very good feature of 5e. |
| #17ZardnaarDec 06, 2014 5:06:15 |
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| (Reply to #12)Caliburn |
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| #19RhennyDec 06, 2014 5:54:19 | For what it's worth, I'm running pcs 1 level lower than suggested after converting Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle. The adventure recommends level 6&7 for the part we are on, but my pcs are level 5. It makes it a little more challenging, but still not deadly. |
| #20ORC_AnimusDec 06, 2014 8:22:58 | I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. |
| #21Brock_LandersDec 06, 2014 9:00:36 | I am augmenting monsters all over the place, it is so easy to convert/port over things you dig from previous editors I do not see the problem, that is the biggest seller of 5th Ed for me: Ease of Converting/Porting-Over.
I have made sure that Ultrodaemons can cast ray of enfeeblement or scorching ray as a bonus action, etc. |
| #22danycDec 06, 2014 9:29:33 | Standard comment in every monster are too weak thread:
The MM is the starting point. It needs to work for newbie DMs and players, and thus by necessity it's balanced for groups using no optional rules (no feats, no multiclassing), with possibly weak rolled stats and 'inferior' build choices. Just about every poster complaining about the MM does so while talking about exclusively hyper-optimized parties using all the optional rules. The most basic thing every DM needs to recognize (and it should be obvious for every experienced one - I don't know why Zardnaar's DM can't seem to figure this out): If you're using many optional rules, have experienced players with well-optimized characters and magical gear, by necessity you're going to need to up the challenge. You can achieve this in many ways.
First. there's CR. Despite Zardnaar's constant bragging, the game actually does expect you to fight 'up CR' if you're doing a BBEG fight (ie a single creature that is expected to be highly challenging and not a speedbump), so its normal and expected to kill things that are several CR above party level (and the higher level the party is, the bigger the gap is expected to be). If you have an optimized group, you will probably even want to go a few CR beyond the DMG guidelines.
Another simple change for BBEGs that doesn't even break RAW (because these same complainers often seem to have a weird sort of RAW hangup, and want the MM to change to suit them rather than altering stuff from the book) is to up a creature's HP. The given values in the MM are specifically averages, and there's no reason a creature can't be better than average. If it's a BBEG? Feel free to max that sucker out.
Beyond that, as many have noted, it's not hard to tack on class abilities or take traits from one monster and give them to another. Zardnaar complains in literally every one of these threads that Dragons should have Spell Resistance and yet somehow... doesn't just make that change himself? I don't get this (especially when he's posting edited monsters in the same thread).
Tactics matter too, and I'm personally in the same position as Caliburn where I think I'd be delivering TPKs to some of these complainers, but they're also a much broader discussion. Just realize that a monster played stupidly is probably not a monster living up to its CR. |
| #23Daydreamer80Dec 06, 2014 10:04:26 | I too find the difficulty of the monsters to be lacking. In particular i find the quickness of fights a bit dissapointing. We play with a grid and minis for combat encounters. Often there is little point in setting them up, as the fight is over in 2 or 3 rounds. Sometimes if the pcs win iniatiative and roll a few crits, its over in 1 round, with the pcs taking 0 damage, for what, based on xp budget should be considered a deadly challenge.
Also- I dont think expecting the RAW to provide a reasonable game experience without adjustment is a hangup. If the raw isnt functional, what that suggests to me is not to make adjustments, but to go play another game. The more adjustments you have to make from the raw to make the game function, the worse the design of the game is. Or, perhaps if the raw works and isnt your style, the less a fit for the game you are.
But caring about playing by the RAW is not a problem. Our group is compulsive about following it. If we cant make the raw work, we leave that game in the dust.
In summary-Buff monsters, especailly there durability. Armor class in this edition is almost useless past level 10.
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| #24Brock_LandersDec 06, 2014 10:22:24 |
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| #25iserithDec 06, 2014 10:24:28 |
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| (Reply to #23)Rhenny |
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| (Reply to #24)Daydreamer80 |
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| (Reply to #26)Daydreamer80 |
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| #29ZardnaarDec 06, 2014 12:19:21 |
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| (Reply to #28)DaveDash |
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| #31SirEmilCraneDec 06, 2014 14:51:18 | ZZar
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| #32ZardnaarDec 06, 2014 15:27:20 |
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| #33RhennyDec 06, 2014 16:19:47 |
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| (Reply to #33)DaveDash |
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| #35ZardnaarDec 07, 2014 1:03:50 | I'm kind of having big 3.0 type problems. Some of the PCs are dealing X3,X4 or X5 damage over the other players. If I compensate with tougher fights the PCs fighting fair get it so to speak, if I don;t I end up with a heap of cakewalk ecnounters. It took around 5 deadly fights and 1 medium fight to deplate the PCs tonight and even then they had a handful of spells left and full hit points. Kind of very rocket tag as well with only copious amounts of healing via a level 12 life cleric keeping the PCs in it and the PCs can chew through 1000 hit point+ combats.
Thats things like X3 large white dragons with a CR6 Dragon riders on them (elite knights with 127 hp) multiple spellcaster or 8-16 CR 3-5 critters or 40 hobgoblins etc.
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| (Reply to #28)danyc |
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| #37Daydreamer80Dec 07, 2014 9:06:03 | This is indeed a feature of 5th edition i like. That trivial encounters are fast and over with quickly. Having said that, i find that often true of 'difficult' encounters. I guess i am getting used to the balance. More monsters makes encounters alot tougther, and its just about nearly impossible to challenge the pcs accurately with a single BBEG.
What im saying is, im not sad trivial fights go fast, im sad difficult fights go fast. Especially for a group that likes to use grid and minis. so far the most viable solution my dm hasfound to this, is to add more monsters in, and in particular sprinkling lower level monsters with higher.
When i am dming in the new year we will see how it goes from there.
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| #38ZardnaarDec 07, 2014 11:42:11 | We are kind of doing that but are finding if you crank up the difficulty combat is no faster than 3.5. |
| #391eejitDec 07, 2014 11:50:48 | You don't need to change monsters much it seems to be you need to houserule GWM/sharpshooter +10 to be once per round, similar to Savage Attacker. That should help a lot. |
| #40RhennyDec 07, 2014 13:43:32 | Annecdote from last night's game:
Five, 5th level PCs fought against 8 orcs, 2 half orcs, 1 orc shaman and an Ettin. The orcs and half orcs came at them from two fronts, north and south, and the Ettin and Shaman came at them from the south a few rounds later. Some of the orcs used ranged and then hid (especially the ones to the South). The Shaman used Mage Armor and Magic Missile and hid. This was not the first battle of the day. They had already had a few before this so the PCs weren't at full health.
In about 6 or 7 rounds, 3 of the 5 PCs were 1 hit away from going down. Luck had a lot to do with the tension and whether or not the group would succeed.
For 5e, I think that some of the monsters don't hit that much, but when they do and if enough of them attack one PC, there is a lot of fear. The Ettin for example missed the Cleric with 2 attacks in two different rounds, but it had previously hit the monk once doing 17 points of damage - a max battle axe shot. That scared the crap out of the players, so even if the Ettin never hit again, there was still the possibility that the next hit could knock someone down.
This battle was basically fought in 2 waves, and when the PCs killed the Ettin, I had the living foes look at the party with awe and respect, which gave the group a chance to make an alliance.
It worked really well and it took about 45 minutes total.
p.s. I run the game online using Fantasy Grounds and I have the program roll randomly for monster hit points. I really like the way players don't really know how much an individual monster can take. |
| (Reply to #38)danyc |
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| (Reply to #40)Daydreamer80 |
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| (Reply to #42)Rhenny |
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| #44ZardnaarDec 07, 2014 18:03:15 |
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| (Reply to #44)danyc |
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| #46ZardnaarDec 07, 2014 19:33:59 |
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| (Reply to #46)danyc |
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| #48ZardnaarDec 07, 2014 22:52:43 |
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| (Reply to #48)CCS |
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| #50Lady_AurallaDec 08, 2014 2:22:22 | What all this discussion brings to mind for me would be a suplement that goes into details of various ways of increasing encounter difficulty (not just combat), making existing creatures more dangerous within the bounds of their existing CR as well as introducing more dangerous creatures, save or die add ins, grittier healing, wounds and crit effects. Basically any form of module or add in that could make life for both sides that bit bore dangerous. I believe a suplement that upped the danger and consequence of the game would sell as form some reason there is a wide collection of the community that likes having heroes reduced to a tatted pile of unheroic mess that spends more time avoiding combat and healing up than actually being heroes. |
| #51ZardnaarDec 08, 2014 8:10:04 |
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| #52draegnDec 08, 2014 8:14:05 | One way you could make a monster tougher is to apply a special requirement. In one game I ran there was an illusionist medusa who caused a great deal of mischief for the group. The party had planned on killing her after figuring a way around the save or suck turn to stone. However, an NPC wizard they went to for help required as part of his payment that they capture her alive. It is not necessary to always add levels etc... to a monster to make it harder.
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| (Reply to #48)danyc |
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| #54Brock_LandersDec 08, 2014 10:15:10 |
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| (Reply to #53)Rhenny |
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| #56EmerikolDec 08, 2014 18:02:39 | I'm one of those people who think dragons should be some of the most powerful beings in the game. I think even a God should think twice before hunting a dragon. So any weak dragons wouldn't make an appearance in my campaign. I want nations to quake in fear at the prospect of a dragon sighting. |
| #57ZardnaarDec 08, 2014 18:32:08 |
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| #58Daydreamer80Dec 09, 2014 1:03:55 | Well, i dont mind the idea of younger dragons being weaker. But yes, all dragons should be strong, and they always have been. I do feel like dragons are a lil underpowerd in this edition though.
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| (Reply to #58)AaronOfBarbaria |
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