Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Huntsman57 Oct 06, 2014 16:23:05	Let me start by saying I feel that it is overall in the right direction that creatures (and players for that matter) have much saner attack bonuses and ACs compared to prior editions. Having said that, as I page through the MM, I can't help but feel that some creatures just seem to have somewhat low ACs.   I'm going from memory without the MM in front of me at the moment, but as an example I believe an ancient red dragon has an AC of 23. Of course, D&D has gotten away from distinguishing between a dragon that is merely old, and one that is a great wyrm, but a high level fighter with +6 proficiency, +3 weapon, +5 ability modifier is hitting this dragon on a 9 or better, and with several attacks per round. It just seems too easy, and IMO the AC is 3-5 points lower than it should be.   I don't want to see ACs balooned to the ludicrous levels of 3rd edition, and in fact I would probably instill a max of AC30 for anything in the game, which is consistent with the -10 max AC of 2nd edition. AC23 for one of the most dangerous creatures in the game, and a creature known for its impervious scales....that's a bit absurd IMO. A fighter (and a low level one had he the money for full plate) can have an AC of 21 without a single piece of magical gear!
#2 Saelorn Oct 06, 2014 16:47:29	If you're wielding an artifact weapon - which is what a +3 is supposed to be - then hitting a little over half the time is about right. If you're merely the best mortal you could possibly be, and you're limited to a much more reasonable +1 weapon, then you need an 11 to hit (which also seems about right).
#3 Illithidbix Oct 06, 2014 16:52:29	Yep. Welcome to bounded accuracy!   The idea is that hitting more often is meant to mean something, and very pointedly you hit more as you level up, even against level appropriate targets. The AC 23 Ancient Red Dragon's main source of resilience is in fact it's 546 HP (or AC 25, 676HP Tarrasque!)   Note you are assuming a +3 magical weapon. The maths of the game very, very pointedly does not assume that even level 20 characters will have +1 magic weapons, and leave that in the hands of the DM. So try the average to roll with the +11 (+5 Ability, +6 Prof.) Sure, except in the most grimest and darkest games, pretty much every player will have one by that point, but the bonus is still a bonus.   Noticeably, the same happens back at the players. As you level up sources of disadvantage and resistance, HP and locking down monsters will be more your barrier to squishing than AC.
#4 FFSAA Oct 06, 2014 17:14:26	Saelorn wrote:
(Reply to #4) AaronOfBarbaria	FFSAA wrote:
#6 Chameleon-X Oct 06, 2014 18:38:56	Every time this debate comes up, I wonder why people don't just add a few points to the monster's AC if they think it's too low. If the rules don't assume magic weapons are a given, and you want the PCs to be able to hit the dragon on a 15+ or something, just jack it's AC up to compensate for that +3 weapon.
#7 Rastapopoulos Oct 07, 2014 15:11:56	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#9 ankiyavon Oct 07, 2014 18:31:17	Chameleon-X wrote:
#10 BW0222 Oct 07, 2014 18:46:08	Huntsman57 wrote:
(Reply to #9) AaronOfBarbaria	ankiyavon wrote:
#12 Trance-Zg Oct 08, 2014 0:27:53	Hitting is fun, not hitting is not fun...most of the time.   also it's the intent of this edition that all CR's are a relative threat to all other CR's given the enough numbers.
#13 Uchawi Oct 08, 2014 3:12:27	WIth bounded accuracy and low armor for large creatures it makes sense to add damage resistance, i.e. hit all you want, but very little gets through those thick scales. I would reserve high AC for something more flighty, like a quickling or supernatural like a demon or devil.
#14 1eejit Oct 08, 2014 3:36:44	If you think an ancient dragon is in any way a pushover use the variant rules to give it innate spellcasting.     AC too low? Have fun with Shield, Haste or Shield of Faith.  HP too low? Stoneskin.   Party relies overmuch on spells like Command? Cast Mind Blank, cue maniacal laugh.   Party tries to use Contagion as much as possible? Ancient Dragon casts antimagic field on itself, touch-range spells won't work. Or since Poison condition Immunity on undead also seems to give disease immunity use the Dracolich template.   Dragon isn't doing enough damage? Cast hold person, multiattack on the next round.     Magical items used by the dragon can also do a lot of the same tricks.
#15 FFSAA Oct 08, 2014 6:16:01	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#16 FFSAA Oct 08, 2014 6:20:01	Chameleon-X wrote:
#17 Huntsman57 Oct 08, 2014 10:31:23	FFSAA wrote:
#18 Mistwell Oct 08, 2014 10:39:06	FFSAA wrote:
#19 Mistwell Oct 08, 2014 10:41:55	FFSAA wrote:
#20 Dracones Oct 08, 2014 10:48:32	Huntsman57 wrote:
#21 Mistwell Oct 08, 2014 11:01:59	Huntsman57 wrote:
(Reply to #9) Timborama	ankiyavon wrote:
#23 Mirtek Oct 08, 2014 13:33:57	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #15) AaronOfBarbaria	FFSAA wrote:
#25 FFSAA Oct 08, 2014 18:33:29	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #25) AaronOfBarbaria	FFSAA wrote: