Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mellored Feb 03, 2015 13:31:04	Not that the new sub-class is bad, but it's also not enough.   Artificer.  Extremly flexible spell casting.   Hit Dice: 1d8 Medium Armor, Simple Weapons. Saves: Int, Wis Thieves tools, Artisain Tools Skills: Arcana and 3 others.   Level 1: Spell Crafting: After a short or long rest, you can put craft temporary wands, scrolls, and potions.  You can have a total number of craft points equal to your artificer level,  No single item can be higher then 1/2 your artificer level (rounded down).  For instance, a level 10 artificer cannot have a 2 point wand, and a 3 point potion, and a 5 point scroll, but cannot have a 6 point scroll.  The items last 24 hours or untill used.  If you craft more then your craft points, the oldest one is removed.  The DC is set when you create the item, with Int being your modifier. Expertise: You gain Expertise in disarm traps. Cantrip: You gain the mending cantrip.   Potions. 1 points: Climbing, growth, or healing 2 points: Mind reading or greater healing 3 points: Invisibility, superior healing, or water breathing 4 points: Resistance ???   Wands:  Come with charges equal to your Int mofidier, regaining +1d4 each night.  If you expend the last charge, the wand is destroyed. 2 Point: Firebolt, ray of frost  (this are at-will) 4 points: Scorching Ray. 8 points: Fireball ???   Scrolls:  You learn 1 spell per artificer level of any class.  Scrolls cost 1 point per spell level.   Sidebar:  Artificers objects can come in several styles.  For instance, you might make magic tatoo's instead of scrolls.  Or your potions might be pills, or injections.  And wands might be a rechargable bag of objects you can throw.   Level 2:  Infusion (2 times): You can temporaraly enchant a weapon or armor with one of the following optoins.  If you take 10 minutes to do so.  You can only have 2 infusions at a time, and it last 30 hours.  You can renew the enchantment as an action. *+1 magic bonus *1d4 fire, lighitng, cold, acid, posion, or thunder damage *resistance to fire, lighitng, cold, acid, posion, or thunder damage *advantage on a skill.   Level 3: Sub-Class Battle Engineer:  You gain proficency in heavy armor, martial weapons, and shields.  Rapid Infusion: As a bonus action, you can infuse a weapon or amor you are carrying, this infusion does not count twards your normal limit but only last until the start of your next turn.   Wand Master:  When you cast a spell from a wand, you can cast a spell from a second wand as a bonus action. Alchemist: You can create an alchemist fire or acid (see equipment), for 1/2 the price.  When you create a potion of healing, maximize the roll.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 03, 2015 16:08:57	I just finished posting my suggestions (generated independently) here; I even settled on two of your paradigms (though I merged battle engineer and golem master, they might be better of split; also, I used a "magical engineer" approach instead of a more specialized wand master that you might want to look at). For me, the four key aspects of class features or spells are Repair Damage, Spell Storing Item, (Personal) Weapon Augmentation (the personal part can be dropped by a subclass), and some manner of reverse-engineering items (look in my post for "dismantle" - it's a way of letting them create items gradually while seamlessly adjusting between the 5e standard and the Eberron standard, because it's fueled by availability of magic items and how much, RP-wise, you can bring yourself to part with them.)   I'm about to teach for the evening, but I promise I'll give a point-by-point take on your approach later. It looks interesting.
#3 rampant Feb 03, 2015 18:23:40	The big things to keep in mind is that we wanna avoid the mistakes of the previous artificers, the 3e artificer was too versatile and quickly became godlike. The 4e artificer wasn't actually much of a crafter.   First off I don't think we're gonna be able to use the dmg magic items for this, they're too inconsistant and inncoherent to use as a class feature. I think we're gonna want to use class specific crafts.    The homunculus should not be able to attack independently until level 5 at the earliset. In fact I'd back off on the homunculus as a core feature.   As far as casting I have two things to say: 1.) If you do it make it a limited spell list, very limited, and really consider if they need traditional spell casting, rituals are a given but I'm not certain they need normal casting. 2.) Just because you have ninth level spell slots doesn't mean you learn 9th level spells. Spells in 5e scale by being castin in higher level spell slots that means that puts osme of the ficer's signature abilities in danger of being pretty puny unless given a full caster progression, only it doesn't have to. I don't think the artificer needs any 9th level spells to be honest, but the abiulity to upcast his lower level spells like magic weapon at full potency would be nice.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 03, 2015 20:35:45	I'm back now.   I'd like to preface this a bit by saying I have three design goals when I evaluate artificers. 1) It must be playable in the standard 5e magic item paradigm as well as Eberron's more common low-level item paradigms, ideally without any changes to their mechanics. 2) It must "feel like" the artificers of previous editions (though I admit I favor 3.5's out of the two), while learning from their mistakes and understanding that the editions are different. 3) It should be simple and fun to play, while still supporting enough "path" options to fit different playstyles. This means minimizing the core artificer down to just the bare basics. (For an example, see the druid. All the high spellcasting abilities are in the Circle of the Land, which uses Wild Shape as utility; all the Wild Shape augments are in Circle of the Moon, who treat their spells as support. While the druid isn't a good model here, that specific distribution is.)   mellored wrote:
#5 rampant Feb 03, 2015 20:52:48	I'm really nervous about screwign around with the other classes spells, that's part of what got the 3e artificer into trouble.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 03, 2015 21:28:10	rampant wrote:
#7 trebor_rjf Feb 04, 2015 0:50:14	i think you should look into balancing the class against pillars besides combat. there's no reason for a tinkerer to be a frontline combatant. the fact that it's not a class in the first place is probably a good indicator of what WotC thinks about the design space. there's no room in the idea for a base class with distinct subclass options.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 04, 2015 16:27:15	I'm moving this to a new thread, sorry for the unintentional threadjack.
#9 mellored Feb 04, 2015 6:39:03	rampant wrote:
#10 LuisCarlos17f Feb 04, 2015 7:40:52	My suggestions:   Artificier can search and disarm traps like a rogue.   "Clockwork bodyguard" for a subclass. Another subclass could be a hybrid with soulmelds from "magic of incarnum".   The artificier can cast spentonous spell "repair damage".   Free extra item creation feats: Inscribe rune, inscribe tatoo, attune gem, craft talisman. (But the prequisite is to work in a garage).    * Power to recharge some magic item with daily power.   * Points of essence. The artificier can use a pool of points of essence to improve some magic item. (using game mechanic from magic of incarnum).
#11 mellored Feb 04, 2015 7:47:46	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#12 mellored Feb 04, 2015 7:51:39	LuisCarlos17f wrote:
#13 rampant Feb 04, 2015 10:32:14	Ok some serious issues here on the tempest version.   1.) Should probably use different terminology for the infusion spells and the magic item recipes. 2.) Should probably not deal with DMG magic items as a class feature period. It's  abad idea for lots of reasons but mostly because it's incredibly up to the DM over whether you can actually do anything with it sinc eit's up to them if you can craft new magic items of that type. 3.) Spell storing items are kind of useless aren't they? i mean they eat craft reserve, spell slots, become wasted after an hour, and take ten minutes a pop 4.) Consider making craft reserve int mod + class level. 5.) Weapon augment burns two craft reserve for the DAY and only gives you  a minute, and doesn't scale with level. Seems a bit lame. 6.) Consider weapon and armor augmentation may be best handled thorugh infusions or thorugh a sub-class becaus eit seems like you don't have the time/space to devote to it to make it interesting in the base class. 7.) DO we really want infusions and stored spells runnign off the same set of spell slots? If so I think we can spiff things up a bit there. 8.) Please let's not do the thing where the artificer auto-learns his artififcer infusions at each level. Let's make them pick which ones they learn liek a rational class. Youc an only hold some much crap in your brain after all. 9.) What did I say about spells known vs. spell slot levels? Some of the best stored spells and infusions are gonna be pretty puny when cast by a ficer if he can't up cast them. 10.) instead of con saves at level 14 maybe make it sub-class specific or allow a choice, I mean an explodey ficer probably get trained more in dex saves while a alchemist ficer gets a lot of con practice. 11.) Crusdars mantle and shield fo faith as artifice rinfusions? seems a bit off.
#14 LuisCarlos17f Feb 04, 2015 15:23:32	* Wait a moment! We are imagining the artificier like a magic mechanic....but what if there is a biopunk artificier? Somebody linked to aberrations or the far realm. Let's imagine a artificier creating parasitic living contructs to mindcontroll war beasts. Do you remember the husks from "Mass Efect" videogames?   * What is the artificier's work, to make bombs and infusions, to repair constructs monster-allies, recharge the flametrowers and to controll walking-torrests?   * Have you thought about to get any ideas from the Techie (d20 Modern advanced class), and the technosavant and the engineer from 20 Future?
#15 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 04, 2015 16:12:34	I don't want to hijack - my intention was to comment, but I accidentally went and created an entire spinoff; sorry, Mellored - so I'm moving mine to another thread.   mellored wrote: