This has been approved my my dungeon master so put down your molotovs.
My "cleric", Senri Dawntacker, is not actually atheist however he does not support the blind worship of deities; Good, Evil or otherwise.
I have had little issue renaming his various abilities so that they match his magic of willpower instead of faith.
The issue is, however, one of the cleric's abilities, Divine Intervention for 10th and 20th level, is by its very nature unable to be performed by my "cleric".
So I'm asking for recomendations for other classes (at my DM's discretion) that I should borrow my level 10 and 20 abilities from or whether I should recieve any at all.
Serious answers please, creativity ,however, is appreciated.
Thank you.
S. Dawntracker
---------------------------------
Alright, So I've gone and looked at the suggestions.
I like the idea stemming from 3E about being a "cleric" of good.
Senri'd be more than capable of drawing power from his morals, they're what he lives for.
I'll worry about Divine Intervention more once I approach it.
At least now I have comfort on where my "cleric" stands in the world.
S. Dawntracker
You could just leave it at Divine Intervention.
Perhaps he has become powerful enough that various gods are "bidding" for his attention by gifting him with miracles.
Or maybe the miracles come from an unknown divine source and the character struggles to come to terms with his anti-deism while still benefiting from the partronage of a god.
Hello Senri-Sei,
I know that long ago the levels of Clerical Spells were outlined in AD&D Deities and Demi-Gods. Low level spells came from prayers and personal convictions I think. Mid level spells came from lesser deities or a greater deities servants. The highest level spells came from greater deities alone. I'm sure this information is terribly outdated, but it leads me to ask, where do you think clerical spells come from? Do you believe an 'atheist' cleric's personal will power can rival the powers of a greater deity?
That's not a loaded question
I'm not judging you in any way. But I think the answers to your question will depend on your views of the sources of Clerical Magic, the nature of the Deities and such.
I'm thinking of Warlocks that serve lesser entities, Arch-Feys, Fiends, Cthulhu Monsters, and I must admit that I wish WotC had created a 4th source with Divine style gifts. I myself wanted to serve Pistis Sophia for example. I was thinking that I could use the Warlock as a starting point and swap in some logical spells from the Cleric list as gifts from the Archon. But that isn't what you are after, you want a Cleric that doesn't serve a deity.
In 3.0, you could just be a Cleric of 'Good' couldn't you? Exactly as your character concept is designed? How did they deal with Divine Interventions?
I applaud your consistency and logical integrity, you aren't power gaming, wanting the power without any responsibilities, you want it to make sense, or are willing to look for an alternative.
Could you possibly substitute lesser and greater 'Wish' style spells? Those are not dependant on the power of a deity, they even exact a heavy toll of aging on the caster. Just a thought, it might be a little more in line with your cleric's source of personal power. Or perhaps you could call on a deity and cast Divine Intervention and accept a Geas to pay for it as 'payment' for a one time transaction? Your character isn't denying the existence of powers that sometimes even walk the mortal world, you just choose not to utterly devote yourself to one of them to the exclusion of others, yes? If you're good aligned, you might find your actions please certain good deities, and that they might be willing to loan you some help every once in awhile.
Well, those are my thoughts on the matter, whatever you choose to do, may the game be a blessing to you!
Gerry
In DC comics they had a character who used to draw power from the Lords of Order. After a while he grew sick of the battle between Chaos & Order and started to draw power directly from the collective will of humanity. Perhaps that's where you get your power from and is the force that intercedes for you...just an idea.
No reason to worship any particular god at all. Your cleric could simply be dedicated to a conviction or goal or philosophy that he believes in so strongly that he derives "divine" power from it.
Maybe the character himself is a god in training who just hasn't realized it yet and that's where all his divine power comes from!
Senri-Sei wrote:
Psst. Hey, buddy, c'mere.
Ur-Priest... You don't ask for intervention, you "borrow" the power to do it. It's tricky, and tends to raise some hackles when you do it, so don't do it too often, and spread the love about when you do.
Senri-Sei wrote:
Gerard_Lee wrote:
Replace "Divine", "Faith", etc with terms related to logic, self empowerment and probabilities and call it done.
Divine Intervention = Improbable Intervention
Divine Favor = Favorable Chances
Shield of Faith = Logical Defense
Divine Power = Empowering Belief
Spiritual Weapon = Improbability Weapon
Or whatever.. Be creative.
thehobb wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
I like the idea of an Agnostic cleric slightly better: "Hey! Any of you guys up there listening, I could use your help. I mean, if you want. If not, it's totally cool. I mean, I don't really NEED your Guidance to jump this ravine. I could probably just do it myself..."
Similar theme and idea, different application. Whatever god wishes can grant his prayer and even provide him spells for the day. The character isn't going to worship them, of course, but certainly does appreciate the help they can provide every now and then
Or you can pull from the general forces of "goodness" as a universal power pool. So you have your convictions, but they're yours, alone, and not some whimsy idea of a god you follow.
(also, someone on the boards has talked about a Paladin who was a Paladin of himself...Pretty awesome)
Personally, I would just keep the Divine Intervention ability, and have your "cleric" not understand where the power is coming from, or have it be a supreme act of his will (which is why it can only be done once per week, it's exhausting and involves manipulating forces that are dangerously beyond your character's control, and he knows it). If you need to reflavour it you could call it "Alter Reality" or "Manifest Desires" or something.
Oh, and the idea to allow Limited Wish 1/week at 10 and Wish 1/week at 20 is a great, simple, elegant solution that I like a lot!
My initial thoughts:
- This sure looks like an "eat your cake and have it, too" scenario, more than anything else. Like "hey--I'm a pacifist fighter!" (is that a flake storm I see there?)
- BWAH? How in the world does the character reconcile other clerics channeling the power of their deities, while evidently denying their existence? I suppose he's going to go with the atheistic mantra "everyone else is just wrong?"
- Um, yeah, but...seeing as how the term "agnostic" came to use in 1869, doesn't seem to me THAT particular character is really possible (but I think the OP isn't talking about THAT, so....I digress).
- (sigh) Why not just play the class according to its intention in the game? I'm not sure what you gain by playing a faith-based character who has no faith. A character grappling with faith issues, now THAT'S interesting. But faith without affirmation just isn't faith (so wrote Paul Tillich, I think it was?).
- But wait! A "scientific cleric" is an alchemist.Perhaps yours will be in plate, and so be a full metal alchemist (heh-heh...{ahem}).
But to be less knee-jerky quizzical (perhaps aghast? bemused? grumpy?), and address your actual question:
- Other classes may be better for your concept: if the character is channeling inner will, he sounds more like a Monk. I'd also suggest a psionicist, but we don't have one yet, do we? That would certainly fit. In a world of faith and magic, being the only non-faithful cleric is, well, it's pretty much B.S., but, perhaps....(see below)
- In the absence of the desired class, assume the source of the Cleric's power is something like the Force. The Force is not a deity, but is something that requires faith and produces tangible results for those that follow it and master it (let's face it -- your character is a Jedi, man!).:-)
- Might consider Pantheism, which, now that I think about, is sort of another version of the force
I feel like your character's worldview is an RP element that could be attached better to a Mage, who basically believes that Clerics are just types of mages who convince themselves they're channeling "Gods." There are other explanations for that, to be sure, your PC says (P.S. I think this particular PC would be named "Scully"). :-)
Nodwick had Persophone (Penelope??) who was an agnostic cleric that was so devout to the forces of good that the good gods actually fought over who got to be her diety. They eventually agreed to stop fighting when they realized that they wouldn't get her christmas brownies anymore if any one god ever won.
Arawn76 wrote:
Hi Senri-Sei and everyone!
I found this on Wikipedia:
"In the 3rd Edition (and 3.5 Edition) of D&D the cleric must choose either a deity or an alignment concept to be dedicated to (the "patron"). The cleric's alignment must be within 1 step of their patron (e.g., for a Lawful Good patron the cleric can be Neutral Good, Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral). Notably, it is also stated that a cleric needn't worship a specific deity or have a religion at all, but can draw their power from a philosophy or even their personal devotion to a cause or way of life."
So, strange as it seems to many of us, the idea is not alien to 'Dungeons and Dragons'. I can't help but think that Senri-Sei's dilemna must have come up during those editions. Does anyone know if WotC ever published their reasoning for philosophies or devotions empowering Clerics with spells?
Karma and the Force are both good options. If you want it to be more "internal," you could read a bunch of Nietzsche and mysticize/bastardize the results. Take the will to power and eternal recurrence ideas and meld them into some kind of fundamental transcendental control over reality. So you come up with a Multiverse in which all possible worlds are infinite, so anything possible is both actual and infinitely recurring, and once your own will to power becomes infinite, you have the ability to make any possible world your actual world. Kinda like Neo at the end of The Matrix.
For those getting confused, the cleric isn't actually atheist or agnostic. Neither was Piffany.
They accept the existence of gods, they just don't worship any specific one of them.
I think that its possible for Senri to benefit from divine intervention: So long as its not Forgotten Realms setting, many gods might help out a genuinely good person achieving their aims, even if they aren't a worshipper.
The issue is going to be that its against Senri's concept to ask for it.
If your DM is cool with it, how about simply letting your DM choose when it is invoked for your character's benefit? Its no longer under your character's direct control, but the effects may be similar.
Or have it as one of those things that you deal with OOC.
arnwolf666 wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
this kind of thing is really best left to a discussion with your DM. he may have some insight to give, particularly regarding the SETTING you're playing in (for example, if I was your DM and I was running say... FR I'd simply tell you "no" if you tried the atheist cleric root. other settings like Ebberon, IIRC, however it's much more doable)
"My "cleric", Senri Dawntacker, is not actually atheist however he does not support the blind worship of deities; Good, Evil or otherwise."
Do you have to worship someone to ask a favour - or a loan - from them?
Food for thought.
Pangur wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
This isn't reality, there actually are gods and souls in D&D and not worshipping one is really kinda dumb, at least long enough for you to get powerful enough to stab one in the back and take their place (mwahahah). The 5E cosmology has clerical power coming from a god, if you don't want it to then switch to the 3E where belief is what shapes the world and just keep the same powers.
FFSAA wrote:
kalil wrote:
Seperate the player from the character. They player may decide to cast these spells, etc. But to the character, they're just divine forces channeled through him. Maybe it even drives him nuts whenever the forces of good ram their power down his throat? He could rail against how much he's being used.
Or maybe he refuses to worship the gods but knows how to tap into the divine forces of the universe. He isn't praying for a healing spell, he's channeling divine energy from the cosmos to heal without playing lipservice to those selfish beings up there.
In 3rd edition your cleric could be devoted to ideals rather than deities. In 2nd edition you could worship an impersonal force, such as good or evil. Your cleric might simply draw on his faith and conviction, and the forces of the universe that align with his ideals sometimes intervene on his behalf.
Gnarl wrote:
Pangur wrote:
Gnarl wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
My cleric Kale Freethinker is both an atheist and a vegan. You can tell he's both because he manages to work it into every freakin' conversation.
iserith wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
My monk PC, Flex Tenderhands, is a masseuse and yoga instructor. He's constantly getting hit on by chicks. So much so that he rarely has a spare moment to himself just to meditate and contemplate the universe. He lives a cursed life.
I'm not sure that last post was quite on topic...
My Humanist (Humanoidist?) cleric, Acts Accordingly, respects your right to worship whatever gods you like, but that sort of thing just isn't for him. He's more interested in addressing the concerns of the mortal world.
DemoMonkey wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
Atheist cleric is like Pacifist fighter or honest thief.
Bennedict wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
thehobb wrote:
Well said AaronOfBarbaria! A martial character might really prefer not to fight. David Carradine in the 'Kung Fu' shows for example.A thief might steal to support his starving family and suffer great guilt over it. Great depth indeed!
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I'm pretty sure the pacifist Fighter is going to get ganked by the rest of his own party who actually want to kill things and take their stuff. Theres a difference between theoretically possible, and actually doable.
And there is a difference between "honest" and "truthful". A truthful thief is an inconvenience. An honest one is a contradiction.
Now if you want to say an honest ROGUE is possible, there may be some potential there. But an honest thief either isn't honest, or isn't a thief.
Much like an atheist cleric; which is NOT what the original poster is describing. They are actually describing something closer to (but not quite identical to) an agnostic cleric.
Just call the ability "Random Good Fortune" instead of "Divine Intervention" and be done with it.
Certainly a player of a pacifist fighter has an obligation to talk to the other players to see if it's all right with them. It may suit a more diplomatic 'talk our way out of trouble' type group, but certainly wouldn't fit a 'kick the door in, kill them, take the loot' style party. No judgment there, both are valid party types
I'm curious, is Robin Hood an 'Honest Thief'? He steals, that makes him a thief. He doesn't try to hide it, even boasts that he 'steals from the rich to give to the poor'. But I realize there are other ways to interpret Robin Hood, so I don't present him as a proof of my argument, just as a conversation piece
And you're right, Senri-Sei did hurry to clarify his Cleric does not deny the existence of deities, but just chooses not to devote himself in service to them. That's not 'atheist' for sure, and I'm not even sure 'agnostic' is a perfect fit, though closer, but a careful reading of his post does make what he means pretty clear, yes.
DemoMonkey wrote:
It's like wanting the benefits of being in the mafia, without being in the mafia.
Noon wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
An honest thief is perfectly possible
All it takes is for him/her to not steal things that people still own.
I am refering to the treasue hunter kind of thief.
It may still not be the most virtuous of paths but if he beleives what he is doing by taking things nobody owns is honest, there isn't much to stop him.
DemoMonkey wrote:
AaronofBarbaria
Merriam-Webster (emphasis mine)
hon·est
adjective \ˈä-nəst\
: good and truthful : not lying, stealing, or cheating
: showing or suggesting a good and truthful character
: not hiding the truth about someone or something : not meant to deceive someone
truth·ful
adjective \ˈtrüth-fəl\
: telling the truth
: containing or expressing the truth
Both words can mean someone who tells the truth; one of them - "honest" - requires more than that. Not all truthful people are honest, but all honest people are truthful.
So no; you can't have an honest thief. Either they aren't honest, or they aren't a thief.
You could have a truthful thief; that might be entertaining. But not an honest one.
None of thiis determines whether you can have an honest ROGUE, of course. That's an entirely different issue.
Atheist cleric is a perfectly viable character. There is no inherent contradiction. The idea that religion necessitates a god or gods is a very Western concept. The core tenets of Buddhism do not affirm the existence of or encourage the worship of any god or gods, and in fact attachment to a deity would be counter to its teachings. An atheist Buddhist is perfectly possible, and thus so is an atheist cleric.
souldoubt wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
souldoubt wrote:
Congratulations! You have re-invented the 3.5E "Favoured Soul".
DemoMonkey wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
DemoMonkey wrote:
So Aaron, what do you think is the correct word to use for "does not steal"?
Senri-Sei wrote:
DemoMonkey wrote:
Ok. So "There can be an Honest Thief provided you use the specific sub-definition of honest that means 'does not lie', but not the more common usage meaning 'law abiding'." is what you are saying.
Or, y'know. You could have used the word "truthful" in the first place and eliminated the ambiguity.
You realizing you are making MY point, and not yours, right?
iserith wrote:
DemoMonkey wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
souldoubt wrote:
Aaron, if someone told you a person stole, but didn't lie, is "honest" really the word you think would be a proper descriptor?
Isn't "truthful" actually a better word, that actually describes the concept you were originally thinking of when you said that an Honest thief was possible?
Are you actually digging in your heels just to prove the point "Well one possible dictionary definition makes what i said possibly true.", even KNOWING that no one would actually think like that?
Really?
Robin Hood is an example of an honest thief.
DemoMonkey wrote:
souldoubt wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
souldoubt wrote:
Back to the topic.
I believe atheist cleric is fine; as mentioned above, few religions like Buddhism ignore divinity, so a literal "atheist clergy" is possible.
As others mentioned, I believe it's also perfectly fine to hand wave the source of your magic as something like the collective consciousness of all non-evil sentience or else. In fact, I like this so much that maybe I'll steal this for my own campaign setting!
Orethalion wrote:
Whereas a privateer...
SoulDoubt wrote:
There is no word I know of in the English language that means someone who does not defacate. Nonexcretor? Bowelless?
Constipated
I appear to have started a dictionary war...
I may remind you that the forerunner of this arguement - Atheist cleric was not an actually summary of my character's values.
Senri Dawntracker is a character who disapproves of being manipulated by a higher power. Atheist Cleric was merely a cliching title designed to give a general idea as to what this thead was to discuss.
If you wish to argue further over the vaidity of an honest thief I suggest one person creates a separate thread titled "Honest Theif".
On a final note: (I believe) Honesty is determined by both or all parties involved. If all involved were capable of stating - "No, that did not infringe upon any codes of conduct that they have agreed to abide by." then yes, I'd say the condemned were honest.
The Vikings fit this view well. They raided villages, stealing and slaying, but at no point did they even imply that they were not going to do it.
Honest thief thread: http://community.wizards.com/forum/product-and-general-dd-discussions/threads/4149161 There, you argumentatives...; Unless you have something constructive to the topic I recommend you get out of my fantastic golden blonde hair.
Well, I can see your point Senri-Sei, we started debating whether a thief can be 'honest' without even considering if it was a useful illustration of the state of your character. Of course, it isn't, because you made it clear you do acknowledge the existence of deities, you do not devote yourself slavishly or without question to any of them. You and others have pointed out your cleric is not an 'atheist' in the literal sense, your use of the word was just as a starting point description which you later developed more fully. Apologies for hijacking your thread, I hope you won't hesitate to share more posts with us.
Senri-Sei wrote:
I don't know that an Atheist character is particularly a viable concept in a D&D world. Well, in the published ones anyway.
I mean, the deities in this world are kind of seen performing miracles, appear in human form, interact with people on a personal level, do mind-screwing alterations of the world.
You compare this to our own world where.. well, frankly, the only evidence of the existence of the primary god most humans worship is claims made by people 2000 years ago who thought the sun revolved around the earth, the moon had its own light, the earth was flat with water below and water above being kept out by a large dome covered with little decorative stars and the whole thing was made in only a week and humans arrived here on the 6th day. Oh... and maybe god makes a statue "cry" or appears on toast sometimes.
Now, there are way too many people who believe that craziness, but in a D&D world... well, there are many more far better verified records of these kind of miracles and have born witness to them. So it is pretty untennable to be an atheist within a D&D world.
That being said, you can be an anti-thesist. It is a different word, different cocept. An Atheist believes there is no god, or there is no proof that the particular traits and acts people associate with a god exists. Even if they accept that there could be a god, YOUR god and what you claim he did doesn't pass the BS test.
An anti-theist believes there is a god (or are gods) and believes him (them) to be evil and destructive or just generally the source of ill. And anti-theist Clerics in D&D are called Ur-Priests. They leech divine power from the gods for their own use. It was covered in 3.5 in the Book of Vile Darkness, but the concept could certainly work in 5E.
But that's a pretty extreme level of wrath. The other option, the most likely option, and one that would suit a polythesistic world like the ones presented in D&D is not to be attached to any PARTICULAR deity. Maybe they draw their power from unnamed and unspecified spirits. Maybe they give respect to all gods in a relatively equal manner. Surely most people in most D&D worlds must do that! How are you going to devote yourself to any particular aspect of your life and ignore everything else?
Or maybe it has occured to the Cleric that hearing all these stories of gods doing harm to other gods, of gods fighting like petty children, of new gods rising from the ranks of mortals and old gods being slain... well, maybe it has occured to this individuals that these really aren't true gods per se. They are not eternal, they are not omnipresent or omnipotent or omniscient. That they were probably all once mortal, even if those stories have been lost to time. And if this is the case, then one should examine the way those individuals that rose lived their lives and then if they prove themselves worthy, they too might one day rise up to the heavens to claim divinity.
In this last case, the Cleric probably holds to a particular set of ideals and behavior that allow him to tap into dive power.
Hebitsuikaza wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
This is not a criticism of anyone. But in my home setting, the wizard is the atheist cleric. I don't do the divine magic/arcane magic divide. Wizard's just look at gods as very powerful entities. Some they allie with some not. And some wizards hate them all.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
souldoubt wrote:
In my campaign we use god calls. If you die and were/are in the gods eyes worthy of judgement you have a % chance based on your level to get some divine aid when you die - 7th level = 7%. This chance improves if you were a cleric or pally fighting dimetrically opposed alignments. In the past this was usually a CE foe.
Now then if you want to play a godless cleric then you do not get a god call. Done and done.
miles2912 wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Apologies. Atheism in Real Life and Atheism in Fiction are the same. They start with the person willfully choosing to believe there are no gods. And it is through this filter that he perceives the wonders of the natural world. Does the sun rise every morning? But it is not the bright bosom of Ushas, the world turns in the void of space, there are no gods. Are children born? No miracle here, it's the natural result of reproduction. What does Lathander have to do with it? Do people die? And so on, and so on. This is illustrated in AaronofBarbaria's Dwarf interaction. The non-religious dwarf has no proof Moradin is not a god. Rather, he redefines Moradin to suit his foundational belief 'their are no gods'. Atheists and Religious folk actually have much in common, not the least our humanity. Let's try to get along, okay?
Shasarak wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Gerard_Lee wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
Hi AaronofBarbaria,
Whoops! I'm sorry, my mind must've slipped up while typing. Thanks for the gentle correction
Have a good week, and some great gaming!
Gerard
P.S. Apologies also, in retrospect I know what you meant about the qualitative difference between modern real life atheism and fantasy RPG atheism. I got lost in trying to make my point, sorry. It's certainly true that modern folks seldom claim to experience the kind of 'Miracles' that occur in D&D games, or that many hold occured long ago in our world. And when people do claim they happen today, sadly it's rarely, if ever, accompanied by irrefutable electronically or mechanically reproducible copies of the evidence as compelling as experiencing the event first hand must be. So I actually agree with your statement that Fantasy Game Atheism and Real Life Atheism are very different things, in the sense you seem to have meant it, and I shouldn't have made such a broad all inclusive statement 'they are the same'.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
It would be a lot easier if you gave some info on the setting. You almost certainly aren't playing in the forgotten realms (for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the gods come down all the time and fight wars with each other, and so an atheist would be basically insane) -- to really answer the question, we would need to know more about the prevailing philosophies, religions, and cosmology of the setting in which you are playing.
souldoubt wrote:
paulstrait wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Gods represent a particular Domain. Good, Evil, Trickery, Knowledge, what have you.
A non-God-worshipping Cleric worships the Domain, not the figurehead.
For instance, take a President/Prime Minister/King of a Country. You can devote yourself to your Country without necessarily worshipping (or even liking/approving of) the figurehead that represents said Country.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Edited to be a bit more concise.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Souldoubt, I'm going to bow out of our conversation at this point. I don't feel that you are understanding where I am coming from or the points that I am trying to make, and I have run out of ways to try and explain. I mean no personal insult in not continuing, but thought you should know why I'm not.
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
demon_idol wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Timborama wrote:
Mecheon wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Just a thought
With the concept that the gods were only people, but ones of unimaginable power, there lies deep thinking.
Could all adventurers, all mortal beings in fact, be potential gods?
There is nothing different that the detities in these realms do that isn't the same as mortals.
In 5E the levels stop at 20, but people can be even more powerful than that.
There is no laws of the universe to say that you, a lvl20 barbarian or wizard or monk, will never get any better at anything you do.
The same case is with magic.
It doesn't stop at lvl9
The weave can be bent a million times further than a sorcerer casting meteors upon the land
Wish is said to be the greatest spell a mortal could ever cast, but at which point would your power be such that the common folk think you beyond mortal.
If the gods can use magic to bend existence greater than a Wish spell what is to say that a wizard, more powerful than the statistical confines of the game, could not achieve the same? in theory.
Just adding my own 3 course meal for thought
Mecheon wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
Off subject a bit - this made me think of a cleric that worships "the auditors." The Auditors are a shadowy group of beings that audit reality... make sure molocules spin and planets stay in their orbit. They loathe chaos they did not plan for... intervention would be rather simple - making things not exist (disintegrate cast as a 9th Lv spell). It would make for an interesting character to say the least.
See, the problem I have here with the idea of promoting atheism like it's some sort of opinion that you shouldn't call on in any situation is this; the setting has gods that readily show their power. They have real, conceivable effects. An atheist in that setting is simply someone who is in denial. Now, if he chose not to worship the gods, that's one thing, but he doesn't deny that they exist, just that they are worth worshiping. In FR, the closest you have to atheists are the old Netherese Archwizards, who believed that the gods were really just incredibly powerful wizards who had found a higher form of magic. And that willful arrogance and ignorance eventually led to their nation's demise.
TheLastGreatMith wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
spelley wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
Mecheon wrote:
Senri-Sei wrote:
If we consider that gods themselves are wrong about their true nature.
They incarnate mortal concepts, their portfolios. Death is a concept that wouldn't easily come to the mind of immortals, for example, so why having to incarnate this ? If they have to incarnate mortal concepts, we can consider that gods depend on martals to exist as gods. Maybe they can exist by themselves without mortals to worship them, but do these creatures without worshippers and mortal concepts to incarnate would qualify as gods ?
Then the gods are not what worshippers say they are, and not what the gods think they are. Then gods don't really exist, and atheists would be the people rejecting the divine system for being a fraud.
An atheist would see the priests as some kind of warlocks selling their souls to their own constructs.
Some atheist then could be able to hack the divine system without fear of divine vengeance, as gods don't exist beyond their worshippers actions and beliefs.
Gods could be a primitive magical defense system gone beyond control, and atheists the people who want to take the control back.
Atheists wouldn't follow the D&D books divine propaganda made to sell their divine classes to characters who have renounced to their free will, convinced that they can't escape destiny (the net the gods use for fishing mortal souls).
I'm not even really sure why I'm making such a big deal about my character following a deity.
In 4E (Which frankly had a terrible magic system among other things) My cleric was instead a follower of Melora
I think it may be a chaotic bend in (IRL) me. I personally disdain any kind of unnessesary oppression, religious commandments and tenents especially (lookin at you Ao).
Also that it isn't possible to align my character in this edition to align myself with both Life and the Sea
I do agree that a cleric may not be the most typical character for these values, but the only other class who can learn remotely the same array of healing magic is a College of Lore bard, which is even worse for me.
And don't ask me to try something other than being a magical healer;
Because that's my thing.
Orethalion wrote:
This is way off-topic but your thread title sort of makes me want to play a fighter who thinks he's a cleric. An atheist cleric, of course.
Senri-Sei wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
"The Silver Flame" seems like a fairly generic, 'the force of good' sort of deity to pick. If you just don't want a deity, you could just be a 'white mage'? Bards don't have to worship anything, but they can cast a lot of healing spells regardless.
In do recal reading in the 3e FR campaign book that if you don't have a god you can't be raised. You became one of the faithless or something like that.
dmgorgon wrote:
Just the idea of "atheist" and "cleric" together, yeah as a DM not a chance in the planes I would allow that. Allow a wizard access to healing domains, sure can do. but a priest who doesnt believe in gods in fantasy settings where they exist beyond any reasonable doubt, nope, not at my table. Now that I think about it, no pacifist fighters either, or corporate pollution loving druids, or bards who cant sing or play music ( and mimes are just creepy, so straight out)
OP:
- The classical Greek philosophers gained insight into the true and fundamental nature of the universe without the 'deus ex machina' of gods or fates.
- Perhaps your character comes from a similar tradition of thought, and he is only a Cleric by game mechanics. From his viewpoint, he's discovered secrets (or at least not-widely-disseminated facts) about the way the world works, and he knows how to manipulate things to get the result he wants.
- In ancient Egypt, Pharaoh and the apparatus of the State were held to have god-like powers, and worshipped accordingly. You see the laws of nature (and society) that make the power happen.
- Galileo did not get in trouble with the Catholic Church for saying the world went around the sun; they were willing to let him discover the true facts of nature. Until he wrote opinions known to be held by the Pope and put them in the mouth of the character 'Simpleton'. Then the church went after him, using the non-embarrassing excuse of his discoveries. Your character may face the same fate at the hands of the gods and their churches.
As noted elsewhere, in FR the gods DO exist. Your character perhaps has found a different way of relating to them, which they don't really like but do / must respect, instead of the normal worship.
Officially, Senri Dawntracker is not known as a cleric, he detests the title.
His prefered title is 'Healer'
'Medic', 'White Mage' and heck, even 'Necromancer' are okay in his book
He does his best to never be confused with one of the faith, which mechanicaly he is.
He is indeed blessed with an inert divine power, much in the same way that a sorcerer is with arcane, but he does not know this
Gods be fearful if he ever finds out
When he does, it may make a nice plot point as he struggles to come to terms with his abilities.
Yeah, there's a few ways to read this. Atheist as "gods don't exist" is pretty nonsensical in most D&D settings. It would be like saying Magic doesn't exist. Or Dragons. These things are real in those worlds - the rules of the game say so. There are immensely powerful beings that grant spells to a select few who ask nicely. Which brings us to the second interpretation: Beings of immense power and control exist, but they are not gods. Other lesser extraplanar beings show similar abilites (and per the Warlock, can give power to others. Is there a difference, beyond scale of power? Just because something powerful exists doesn't mean it is deserving of worship. This is the viewpoint of the Athar. It does not go well for them either.
From there you get to "acknowledges gods as gods, but doesn't follow one" which is passing out of atheist and more into areligious, which gets trickier.
Elfcrusher wrote:
Do beings of immense power exist in the forgotten realms? Yes!
Many of those beings are known as gods for the simple fact that they are immensely powerful.
Thats kind of a tautology though. A God is a being of immense power. A being of immense power is a god.
As such there is no disputing that such gods exist in the forgotten realms world. A mortal can become a god if he becomes powerful enough. Likewise a god can become a mortal if he becomes weak enough.
So if someone says these facts mean that an immensely powerful being isn't really a god there needs to be some qualification on what he means. I think such a statement means that the gods don't deserve worship.
When someone asks if you're a God, you say yes!
FrogReaver wrote:
Well a simplistic way of looking at it, they are gods because the rulebook says they are.
caridhor wrote: