Maybe some spoilers for the Lost mine of pharnderlin, I'll try to keep it a low as possible but you were warned.
So I am a player in one of my friend's 5e game (really the first time i've been one in well over two years), and I am trying to understand the "old school" vibe. We are going through the list mine of phanderlin and we just did the red brand's hideout. And I have to say we fought one monster that nearly took down my fighter with one dual claw strike, and the party wizard with some kind of mental attack. and for a 4 man party after the first monster were like ... "Uh are we supposed to leave, rest for an hour and come back?"
We trucked on, using our only healing potion on my fighter because my second wind only healed me for 3hp (low roll). and fought another set of two redbrands. Low rolls meant that they didnt go down easy and my fighter ended up with 2hp, the wizard at 0 and the rogue at half.
So now we are definately looking for a way out, we crawled back out eventually and went back to the tavern and rested up for an hour. before coming back, after which the place had been torn apart by the bugbears, appearantly lighting some fires caused a dispute and there were a few survivors who we dealt with.
But the question remains, are we supposed to go in, fight a single fight or one more if we creamed the first and head back to town for an hour rest? Is this the "old school" mentality? Should we be stocking up on potions with all of our gold? What can I do to avoid this or should I just go with the flow? (I am mainly a 4e/Savage worlds player/GM so this playstyle seems forigne to me.)
TL;DR, So far in 5e, we have had several sessions where we have had about 15m of action and we are all spent, is the game designed for this? can I avoid this?
Basically, don't swing your sword.
Make a deal with the nothic rather than fight it. Dress up as Redbrands when trying to get around their hideout. Make arrangements to lure Glasstaff out of the lair while you're doing the wetwork. And so on. (That's some of what my groups did.) Clearing the place is possible, but given the very low resources of low-level PCs, it's the harder solution to implement, so you may want to pick your battles.
It is a low level thing. Low level 5e is like low level 1e. Don't fight anything on purpose unless you have a massive advantage. If you do fight stuff as first or second instinct, you will X minute workday due to low resources.
Players used to the older editions tend to use the "coward" or "trickster" styles and rarely run into the 15 minute workday as the avoid all fair fights like the plague.
New school gamers tend to fight first and end up finishing their day early as 5e encourages Extreme Care of 1e and 2e.
In the old days...
Every party had a Cleric... lots of cure light wounds spells.
We often had 'men-at-arms' to absorb some of the damage. Virtually every low level mage would con some poor sap into standing in front of him with a shield... for a share of the treasure.
I seem to remember cure potions being left around at stratgic locations in lots of adventures. I think the 'first aid kits' that are scattered about in most first person shooter console games hark back to that practice in early RPG's.
So, yeah... you need to either make sure you have some sort of healing available, avoid combat where possible and/or plan on sort of a 'hit and run' approach to the adventures.
iserith wrote:
arderkrag wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
iserith wrote:
That's interesting. When I ran this with my wife and a friend recently (I played the "let's other go first" healbot Dwarf Cleric) they managed to get through the Goblin cave with one fatality. In town they picked up a fighter (son of the Townmaster who I totally made up so there would be someone there to use) and after doing some other stuff (Agnes the Banshee and a random encounter on the way back) they hit up the redguard base. When they attacked they were level 2, and leveled while they were in the base. The encounter with the Nothic was weird because I tried to talk to them, telling them not to cross the bridge the Fighter was determined to cross. When he totally blew it off, I decided it got pissed off and immediately tried to use its necrotic gaze to murder the poor sap.
Poor sap in question saved like a boss, stomped across the bridge and critted the damn thing. Then, ignoring the Nothics pleas for mercy, chopped it up into little pieces with the help of the Halfling. Most of the dungeon went like that with the only really hairy spot being when they burst into the Bugbear room and the fighter and cleric both went down at the same time over the course of the fight. The halfling dodged out of the room, hid outside the door and readied an action to murder the remaining bugbear as soon as he came out, which went well for her. They slept in the bugbear's room for an hour, taking shifts, after she (the halfling) stabilized the other two and interrogated the little goblin. The remainder was a breeze, and though they didn't catch Glasstaff, both the Fighter and Rogue are pissed off enough tha finding him is their number one priority as soon as they get their Wizard buddy back from Neverwinter. (He was the character who had died and they were doing jobs around town to pony up the cash to send him back to his home temple in Neverwinter and have him resurrected.)
Herrozerro wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
I'd point out that the short rest is surely by its very definition the solution to the five-minute workday.
Your characters don't have to go away and "rest up" for an hour, they just need to take it slowly. It's perfectly reasonable to take an hour consolidating and recuperating after a dangerous fight. The trick is to make it feel like something you're doing actively, rather than just a mechanical kludge.
Exploring an ancient ruin takes a while.
Wish my work day was 15 minutes.
Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
The nothic was great. My players were freaking out. After sneaking in the side tunnel right to it, the nothic noticed them and talked into their minds, revealing secrets about them, but more importantly telling them their own plan. The nothic already had a deal with glassstaff, but that didn't mean it liked the deal or glassstaff, so given that it knew the PC's plan, it wanted to make a deal with the PC's, it wanted food and the redbrands gone, especially glassstaff.
At first, the PC's immediately fled, they were that freaked out. This is where not having minis on the board, or even a encounter area mapped out yet really helped. Luckily, no other inhabitants were encountered. They got up their nerve again after a few more redbrand attacks in town. Since the redbrands had lost badly each time, they were on a bit more high-alert at the hideout. They had outside patrols in the woods and on top the ruins. Yet this time, the PC's went back at night with stealth and the took out the patrols. By the time they got inside the hideout, most of the redbrands were already dispatched. They made their way back to the secret tunnel, accept the deal with the nothic, cleared a few rooms and threw down some tasty redbrands to it. They didn't have to fight glassstaff, as he fled since they didn't surprise him via the secret door, but through the lab/workspace, so glassstaff was alerted by his familiar.
TL;DR
The nothic didn't attack the PC's and neither did Glassstaff. The redbrands were encountered mostly outside the hide out, since the PC's were too stubborn to take the bait the first time which kept the Redbrands coming back to the them instead. But this gave the PC's a chance to rest & regroup between encounters. The PC's really got angry when the rebrands burned down the Inn they were staying at, and then tried to snipe them from rooftops when they tried to help the town put out the fire. (note: ray of frost worked great on the flames).
Also, they eventually went back and killed the nothic. They didn't like the idea of leaving such an evil thing living there.
Herrozerro wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
O.p: We smashed on the redbrands lair beneath the ruins. We fought our way through the Nothic, bugbears, and the rogues plaing cards before we ever needed to take a long rest. In our case when we did rest Glassstaff ran for his life. We mopped up the ruin after a rest. The living redbrands fled Phandalin as we were pretty much exterminating them wholesale. Dice rolls make all the difference it seems.
As far as the old school vibe goes- Here's some advice form an old schooler to help you adjust. There are no signs saying "level x and above" in life. Be careful. Think before you act. Keep in mind the dangerous nature of your vocation. Don't be afraid to use clandestine tactics to win or to run and live to fight later. Conserve your spells, second wind, action surge, ect. till you need them. Use them sparingly knowing that around the corner may be your end. When in doubt don't Nova, it will bite you in the butt rather quickly. Use rogues to recon the situation, use fighters to hulk smash foes in choke points, Use mages to full effect. i.e. spells that can do lasting damage ( ex. Flaming sphere) and not one rounds worth. Utilize your damaging cantrips like an archer does arrows. They cost nothing. Fish for surprise, fight dirty. If the rogue isn't sneak attacking often, why?, If the fighter isn't using terrain to his advantage, why? If the Cleric is being used as only a healing battery, why?He can whoop butt, If the squishy is idle & only casting his prepared spells and coasting, why? Use strategy to win rather than just brute force. Use wolf pack tactics to kill enemy casters, use magic to debuff enemy fighters, and then sneak attack them, simply said "Use your head". Don't go in like Rambo without a jock strap. 
Happy gaming, hope that helps.
It sounds like you had some rolls go against you. Sometimes that happens and you need to pull back and recover. It will happen less when you have more resources.
Uskglass wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
autolycus wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Atheosis wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
I'd say you just do whatever the heck you want. There is no reason to complete x number of encounters per day. If you want to fight one creature per day that's perfectly acceptable and it's your choice.
You'll just have to live the conequences of those actions. A war of attrition might not be best the best strategy.
From the perspective of a DM running both a homebrew game and a published adventure, you're going to get a lot of short adventuring days in the modules. The encounters are tuned really hard, and a few bad rolls will have piles of resources burned or multiple PC deaths.
So the best advice I can give is for DMs: Use the encounter guidelines. Building encounters for my homebrew game by the guidelines has worked brilliantly. There is challenge without it being overwhelming, and putting a little time pressure on will make players really consider when to take rests.
Herrozerro wrote:
So basically what I am seeing for the most part is to not be a hero. right?
Herrozerro wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
There are lots of different kinds of heros. And lots of different heroic stories.
Some are clever tricksters who talk the gods out of their most precious artifacts (Odysseus). Some sneak-thieves who steal the treasure without the monster ever knowing what happened (Bilbo). And some are invulnerable fighters who slay every beast they meet (Hercules).
I prefer the kind of hero who starts off relying on his wits and a bit of luck before moving on to cosmic power.
Emerikol. wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
My advice for low levels is do not overlook how good the BArd is along with a wizard. Having 2 spell casters that can cast sleep helps a lot you can more or less snooze your way to level 2. Anything immune to sleep (undead etc) can just be blown up or have the bard faerie fire it.
Do not believe the theory crafting that goes on here either. Massive damage using two handed weapoins also tends to neglect the usefulness of +2 AC via a shield and those situations where your damage is mitigated via range and/or limitations on movement rate. Bards may not do that much damage but they are a very powerful controler to use a 4th ed term.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
Hi OP.
So by now you've found out that low level D&D 5th Edition is way different from 4e/Savage Worlds/etc. Starting chars aren't capable heroes out the gate, they're easily killed suckers. Next doesn't really tell you this up front, and that's the bad thing. I mean, Dungeon Crawl Classics (a retroclone) at least has the common decency to tell you from the start "You aren't heroes, you're murderhobos trying to survive long enough to get money and level up".
This is because the intended core audience of Next are old fans of AD&D, who started as murderhobo fans and, since the combat rules were a mess and 1 gold coin= 1 XP, tried to be "clever" and avoid combat by improving actions the majority of the time. In those days, if you got into combat, you screwed up. As you may have seen, this old school style doesn't really mech with the more modern "you're a badass, go forth and be a hero" mindset.
So how to deal with this? Well...
* Let your players know from the start that this is a murderhobo game and combat at low levels will get you killed. Encourage your players to improv and do neat stuffs outside the rules, and as a GM, allow them their improvs - hell, for the fighter, it's the only thing they got.
* As some have said, start at level 3 instead of one. While you have more hp and abilties, to me it seems like a cop-out. Instead of Level 1 being the starting line for new players, it seems it's the domain of the old-school murderhobo fans.
* Do what I'm probaly going to do - 5e does not cater to my playstyle (nor to the playstyles of the people in my FLGS' Encounters group) so we generally said "Pee on 5E!" and will continue to play either Pathfinder or, when I take over, play 13th Age or Savage Worlds or Through the Breach - in short, play game you actually like and think are fun. Let the grogs have Next, they "earned it".
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
Noon wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Noon wrote:
You need to change your tactics to being cautious, rely on pre-battle planning, and ranged combat. A dex based fighter will win in that regard over a front-line fighter. Even a barbarian or monk will benefit from having a good ranged attack. It is fantasy as war, and you must weaken the opposing troups, before going into direct conflict.
There is no correct path you are supposed to take (except in a poorly written adventure). You have to be reactive the party's situation. If you are doing fine then you don't need to retreat and rest. OTOH if you get creamed in a particular fight and hp are very low, you do need to retreat and rest. These decision points belong to the players and are not set by the adventure.
IMO, 5e is not designed for combat to be the only necessary resolution mechanic. Given the conceit that combat is first among equals, with exploration and interaction, using combat to resolve every encounter should feel weak. If that is a preferred playstyle I'd suggest starting the 'Mines ..' at level 3 instead of level 1.
In my group we did make it through both the goblin caves @lvl1 and the Redbrands hideout @level2 (shorthanded with only 3 PC's) without any casualties or even anyone going < 0hp. We used scouting, ambush, positioning, negotiation, deception and intimidation and even bribery to avoid combat or at least move the combat to more favorable terms before engaging whenever possible.
I'm curious as to why you (the OP) feel this is unheroic.
Lawolf wrote:
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
yakuba wrote:
Basically you have to endure a couple of levels of Dark Souls before playing Final Fantasy.
PREPARE TO DIE (TM)
yakuba wrote:
I was wondering if it would be unbalancing to make the abilities that normally come back after a short rest, just come back after the encounter is finished. That way only healing would require a short rest, not the fighters getting back their action surges etc.
Iorwerth wrote:
Well that's weird, because my players in 4e ALWAYS were strategic. And they often were blasted to near the end of their resources and hit points by the end of their grueling fights, because they had the strategic drive to use flanking, opportunity attacks, character powers, and team work, to do amazing things and rise up even from the brink of death.
5e allows for this too, but without the need for complex table grid movements – it can all be theatre of the mind.
But 4e allowed strategic gameplay. It did.
Emerikol. wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
yakuba wrote:
Marandahir wrote:
Noon wrote:
Marandahir wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Level 1 characters aren't heros, someone asked, "should we avoid being heros" the answer is yes you should, because your not a hero. Your a guy with ambition, lacking skill to back it up.
I think Wizards of the Coast did a great thing by creating accelerated character advancement so that these non hero's ambitions can be quickly realized, but in the same token, making it sufficiently lethal to give each player a reason to be cautious early on or face the consquences.
Humbly, in my opinion, this is exactly how D&D should feel.
Lawolf wrote:
Xguild wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Xguild wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Marandahir wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
autolycus wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
autolycus wrote:
EDIT: this is not a reply to anyone in particular.
If a monster can one-shot you in combat, don't get into direct combat. If you must engage the monster, sneak up on it, draw it out and alone, ambush it (aka surprise), best if from range, and don't let it even get an attack off.
<sarcasm>Have you even played the game before?</sarcasm>
<strawman>
It seems bizarre to me to complain that monsters exist that are life threatening to the PC's.
It seems equally bizarre to have expectations that combats should be fair and play out like some kind of ping-pong tit-for-tat game of whacking each other with nerf-bats, until the enemy eventually falls over due to boredom, all wrapped in an illusion of tactical superiorty that comes from recognizing that one should push button power A over power of button power B this time around because the math works better that way.
</strawman>
Wuzzard wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Whether we are talking tactics or strategy I find the more options available to each class makes the game more interesting, but 5E sacrifices some of those choices for the sake of simplicty. Don't confuse that with what a player decides. That is a constant, but the choices available for any given class are not. That includes the ability to recover in combat from a mechanics standpoint, versus what any player can decide when their character runs away.
Lawolf wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
thehobb wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
First level characters are not heroes. They have never been, save for maybe 4E. So drop the level 7 mentality and start thinking instead of going everywhere swinging a sword. That's about it.
The characters in my game, at level 1, saved Threshold from the troglodytes and returned the kobolds to control of their homes. I'd call them heroes.
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Karnos wrote:
If you want to be a hero, do something heroic.
It's not about having bigger guns, or being invincible.
It's about putting your life on the line because it is the right thing to do.
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Noon wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Karnos wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Saelorn wrote:
Bumamgar wrote:
The way to prosper as a character in 1e is to use good strategy. The way in 4e is to use good tactics. That is what I meant by rewards. It's a proper if not unique use of the term.
I'm also not saying that either game is completely devoid of either strategy or tactics.
I prefer a game that has fast and straightforward combat resolution that benefits from strategy more than tactics.
Emerikol. wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Karnos wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
So far, the 1 hour rest and rolling for random encounters, or interrupting the party if they are in a really high traffic area seems to work.
Also, when you build adventures, make sure there is a variety of encounters. It isn't bad to have some easy and medium encounters if you want to keep the PCs going.
In my games, if the PCs get beaten up, I want them to take rests. They still know that they can only take 1 long rest every day so they press on or go to a safe area to spend more time. That's fine by me. It actually makes sense.
I've had sessions where PCs have had tor rest after 1 encounter and other sessions where they have gone 6 or more encounters without rest. I think the variety and the fact that the players never really know when their next encounter might pop up keeps them on their toes and makes the short work day a moot point.
thehobb wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Zardnaar- "Using marbles in a dungeon" Come on man, it's to make your getaway. 
Lawolf wrote:
arderkrag wrote:
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
Bud_the_CHUD wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
I want to point out that short rests are 1 hour long, so its not possible to have a 15 minute workday, you'd at least need 2 hours and a bit more. And why is everyone all of a sudden done after three combats anyway? Are there bunk rooms every fourth room in a dungeon? With milk and cookies?
Wuzzard wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
Uskglass wrote:
arderkrag wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
thehobb wrote:
Herrozerro wrote:
arderkrag wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
Uskglass wrote: