Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Slit518 May 16, 2015 21:34:39	For those of you looking for a 1/3rd caster, similar to the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster, try the Barbarian's "Warden" sub-class!  Give me any thoughts and opinions on it.  Thanks in advance for any feedback! (for a majority of the text concerning paths, this post used and edited parts of the Eldritch Knight, Druid and Barbarian texts in the Player's Handbook for 5th edition)   Primal Path - Path of the Warden The archetypal Warden combines the martial prowess of the wild Barbarian with the Druid's love to the study of nature and nature magic.  Warden's use magical techniques similar to those practiced by Druids.  A Warden knows a smaller amount of spells than a Druid, committing them to memory, so they are ready when needed. Spellcasting When you reach 3rd level, you augment your martial prowess with the ability to cast spells.  See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the Druid spell list.  This path also allows you to cast Warden spells while in a Rage. Cantrips - You learn two cantrips of your choice from the Druid spell list.  you lean an additional wizard cantrip of your choice at 10th level. Spell Slots - The Warden Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher.  To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher.  You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell Entangle and have a 1st-level and 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast Entangle using either slot. Spells known of 1st-Level and Higher - You know three 1st-level Druid spells of your choice. The Spells Known column of the Warden Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st-level or higher.  Each of these spells must be from the Druid list, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots.  For instance, when you reach 7th level in this class, you can learn one new spell or 1st or 2nd level. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the Druid spells you know with another spell of your choice from the Druid spell list.  The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots. Spellcasting Ability - Wisdom if you spellcasting ability for your Druid spells, since your magic draws upon your devotion and attunement to nature.  You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability.  In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a Druid spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.     Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier     Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier Path of the Warden Some Barbarians choose an unusual path, mixing magic with their rugged lifestyle.  Choosing to be protectors of nature and the lands around them, they choose the path of the Warden. Rage Magic Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, when you go into a rage you add the Rage Damage bonus to any difficulty checks or attack rolls made with your spells.  Casting a spell also allows the Rage to continue. Commune With Animals Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can communicate with animals, all the way from the tiny chipmonk, to the fish in the sea, to the eagles in the sky and even the large bear.  To communicate with an animal is a Bonus Action.  A Warden can only communicate with one animal type at a time, if more than one animal type is present (deer, badger, wolf), the Warden must choose which type they wish to communicate with. Battle Magic Starting when you choose this path at 6th level, when you are in a Rage and use your action to use a spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action. Nature Master Starting at 6th level, you can choose a type of movement (climb, swim) or difficult terrain (thick snow, brush, boulder rubble, swamps, etc...), it not longer costs you extra movement.  You can only do this while in natural terrian.  At levels 10 and 14 you can choose one extra type of movement and add it to your list. Anger Fueled Magic Starting at 10th level, when you rage and cast a spell, you add the Rage Damage bonus to the spell’s damage. Magical Rage Master Starting at 14th level, when you Rage and cast spells, you no longer need to cast a concentration check for taking damage, as long as you are still in a Rage.   P.S. Spell progression is similar to that of the Eldritch Knight in terms of spells gained.
#2 Xeviat-DM May 16, 2015 21:52:37	I haven't crunched numbers, but I worry about simply adding on the 1/3rd level caster to any class's bonus class. The fighter (battlemaster) adds a significant amount of damage to a fighter's abilities. The other rogue subclasses don't add much, and the rogue spells don't add much attacks, but the eldritch knight does. The barbarian subclasses aren't a huge part of their offensive ability, so spells seem like they might be too much. But this is without having crunched the numbers; have you built a simple test barbarian to play with?
#3 Macv12 May 16, 2015 22:38:02	Note that barbarians aren't allowed to cast spells during Rage by rules fiat. I don't see anything that contravenes that rule, so most of the features here are technically useless. Which brings me to multiclassing. Interactions? You can just freely cast any spell now while raging? Only Warden spells?   TBH, it sounds boring. You just just get spells and bigger numbers. There are no social/exploration features, it's all combat. The actual class features are all bland and don't encourage any particular strength or style of play, and you rely on spells to supply anything interesting this character might do. (So when you're out of spells/rages, day's over. You have nothing cool you can do anymore. And you don't have many slots. An issue with regular barbs anyway, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.) Nothing jumps out and makes me say "ooh, I want this class for that."
#4 Slit518 May 17, 2015 7:41:03	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#5 Marandahir May 17, 2015 7:43:28	Honestly, not casting is part of the Barbarian's schtick, and adding 1/3 casting to him is perilous. I feel like we could make a good Warden homebrew with the Barbarian, but it shouldn't be a caster. Besides, the key Warden abilities are hidden behind 6th-level spells (as of Elemental Evil – the investiture spells), and thus any half-caster or third-caster couldn't accurately perform the spells as-is. Instead, similar class abilites should be added. I would look to the Totem Warrior's animal spirit abilities, and go from there – instead of gaining the power of a bear or an eagle or a wolf, you take on a mantle of flame or ice or lightning or stone. Ideally, I would have made the investiture spells lower level, and given them to the Paladin spell list, and then the Oath of the Ancients Paladin could have perfectly emulated the Warden. çe la vi.
#6 Slit518 May 17, 2015 8:09:43	I added two new abilities to the Warden's ability list! Commune with Animals and Nature Master.
#7 Glimjack May 17, 2015 8:39:14	I think adding the barbarians rage bonus to spell attacks and DCs is a bit OP. Commune with animals also steps on the totem barbarians toes a little bit. Initially I thought that adding rage damage bonus to spells was a little bit over-powered but considering the relative low level of thier spells it probably wouldn't be a problem. Same goes for their ability to ignore concetration checks when ragin, it's tough but the limit on it is the low-level of their spells so it seems ok.   EDIT: Also the Eldritch Knight and Arcane trickster have restricted access to wizard spells (only two schools of magic each), I'd suggest creating a trimmed down version of the Druid Spell list for the Warden with a limited ability to get open access to druid spells.   EDIT 2: I also think that the ability to cast a spell to allow rage to continue has potential for abuse as this is one of the few times a barbarian can drop out of their rage. I'd suggest limiting it in one of two ways 1) if you deal HP damage with a spell or 2) if you cast a spell that requires a melee or ranged spell attack roll.
#8 Slit518 May 17, 2015 8:36:17	Glimjack wrote:
#9 Glimjack May 17, 2015 8:41:17	Yes, but the general rage feature affects damage not te likely hood of "landing a blow" it shouldn't increase accuracy with either DC attacks or spell attacks.
#10 Slit518 May 17, 2015 8:42:10	Glimjack wrote:
(Reply to #9) Glimjack	Totem barbarians get one of their coolest features at 10th level when the get speak with animals as a 10 minute long ritual. You're giving it to Wardens as an unlimited use ability at 3rd level which steals a lot of the Totem barbarians thunder.
(Reply to #10) Glimjack	Slit518 wrote:
#13 Slit518 May 17, 2015 8:49:54	Glimjack wrote:
#14 Diffan May 17, 2015 10:07:06	The Warden's features shouldn't be spellcasting, but transforming similar to the Druid.
#15 Macv12 May 17, 2015 17:46:18	From what I remember about the 4e warden, they had lots of aura-based stuff, and sort of had a "transform into element/imbue self with element" thing going. The druid and totem barbarian are pretty animal-focused. Maybe give the warden more of a plants and primal elements focus. Start with that druid spell to teleport between trees, whatever it was called. Give them powers to communicate with plants instead of animals. Maybe the ability to command tree roots to part, vines to weave together into nets, that sort of thing. I feel like there's a spell that does this kind of thing, but I don't know what it was called. Anyway, this would give a lot of exploration utility.   You could maybe use plant pharamones or something for social stuff, but that feels like forcing it. Being able to talk to flowers may be enough. Or, you know, other natural junk. Go throw dust in the fireplace to see what the fire "saw" during the last X hours, useful in both cities and towns. Same with water, persistant gusts (in canyons and such), and rocks.   Limiting the spell list seems like a good idea for a 1/3 caster with a specific flavor. Go through the druid list and pick which spells can be taken, and present a list of them as the "warden spell list." I would not, for example, want a barbarian to take Shillelagh and ignore their STR score.   As for features, I'm thinking the ability to wrap your weapon in elementaliness for extra effects (fire=AoE, wind=knockback, etc), and an aura with a few manifestation options (vines to trap enemies nearby, lightning to counter-damage enemies who hit you, wind to have a chance of flinging enemies random directions, etc). Activating either consumes a slot. Rage bonus to spell damage sounds good to me. Let Reckless Attack apply to spell attack rolls, maybe saves.
#16 rampant May 17, 2015 18:17:28	I'm not very enthusiastic about sub-classes where you just transpalant a primary caster's spells onto a non-casting class's chasis. Doesn't generally work well because primary casters have a liot mor eup-casitng availiable and this can end up screwing people because they end up acting as a sub par caster and a sub par non-caster in shiftis rather than a useful gish character. I advise a custom spell list that takes the warden's core chasis (barbarian) into account.
#17 Slit518 May 17, 2015 19:21:04	P.S. I never got into 4th edition, I played it once when it first came out at a convention.  It was alright, I didn't like it that much.  I had no idea they had a Warden class.   rampant wrote:
#18 Macv12 May 17, 2015 19:43:08	Taking this topic as inspiration, I threw together a Warden concept that I think is complementary. Not really balanced, but hopefully it helps generate ideas. It's particularly heavy at level 3, but those seemed like important features to have early on. I didn't manage to fit equivalent weapon-based manifestations in there. Putting the "manifestations" in as the level 14 feature and pirating the Investiture spells also works. Just give spellcasting and a sort of fluffy feature (like Sword Bond) in at level 3.   Lv3
#19 Slit518 May 17, 2015 20:02:52	Macv12 wrote:
#20 rampant May 17, 2015 20:20:48	I'm leery of letting a barbarian run con as a casting stat, giving them another reason to boost con may or may not turn out well, not sure. Furthermore it's a bit unusual for a divine class to use con, I mean they really could especially if you go with the 'conduit of divine power concept' but they haven't so far so it'd be kind of jarring.   As for 'hit everybody with lighting' and then attack, it ends more like 'hit everyone with unimpressive lightning and then poke someone,' ... rather unfulfilling, Wouldn't a quick cast spell that allows your attacks to arc off into lightning bolts on nearby enemies as logn as you concentrate ont he spell be more fun?
#21 Glimjack May 18, 2015 2:05:22	Now that i tihnk about it isn't the Pact of the Ancients Paladin a pretty damn good Warden?
(Reply to #13) Glimjack	Slit518 wrote:
(Reply to #5) Mechatarrasque	Marandahir wrote: