Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 demon_idol Aug 11, 2014 17:06:34	Why the heck do bards have stinking cloud as a 3rd level spell? It has nothing to do with their supportive role, language, sound, illusion, music, etc.. In no previous edition was it a bard spell. Was there some famous bard in some novel that I have not read that could cast it?   There are a lot of cooler, more appropriate options-- mass healing word, counter spell, remove curse, conjure animal, revivify, slow, haste...   Bards can't even cast fog cloud, so why can they cast stinking cloud? (Other than the obvious jokes, but you can make a joke about anyone who casts stinking cloud.)   I recall that stinking cloud was on the public playtest spell list. I thought it was dumb then, but I figured it was a very rickety playtest writeup, and it would likely be changed.   What is really bad about this is that stinking cloud is actually a very good control spell. A lot of bard characters will take it. Bards will end up with a reputation for generating stinking clouds. After 'The Gamers: Dorkness Rising' and the dead bard gag, this is the last thing that bards need.
#2 Marandahir Aug 11, 2014 19:25:23	I expect it's the jokes – humour and all that.  But I don't understand why they don't get haste.  It became a Bard-exclusive spell in 4e…
#3 Ashrym Aug 11, 2014 19:49:35	demon_idol wrote:
#4 iserith Aug 11, 2014 20:02:28	Stinking Cloud is the name of my bard's Green Day cover band.
#5 masterfat78 Aug 11, 2014 20:29:23	I thought bards not getting haste in the playtest was a mistake. Im kinda shocked that they still dont have it in the final version considering that some pallys actually get haste. I would think that only bards and wizards should get haste.
#6 Rastapopoulos Aug 11, 2014 20:31:01	Casts stinking cloud inside the tavern.   Blames it on the half-orc eating beans.
#7 Theridion1 Aug 11, 2014 20:41:36	The negligence of haste makes me sad... i was looking forward to bufding the party... not having a lot of spells that look the same. "Save or negative status". To add to that, bard song of healing is very weak... unless you are short resting a lot each day... which imo is unfun. So the bard cant be a healer. He cant spell buff. I just think it misses the mark. A mass haste. Mass cure. A mass movement spell... that would have been a cool niche for the bard. Instead its a restricted spell list.
#8 quindia Aug 11, 2014 20:44:52	Just substitute haste for stinking cloud in your own games... problem solved...
(Reply to #7) Ashrym	Theridion1 wrote:
#10 Dastion Aug 12, 2014 1:23:55	I was a little disappointed about lack of Haste, but I'm overall pretty impressed with 5e Bards.  A clever bard can do a lot of damage with Dissonant Whispers (it trigger opportunity attacks) and both Bard types can add/prevent a lot of damage with timely uses of their inspiration dice, especially Lore Bards with cutting words (make a potential hit a miss, or make an enemy fail an attempt to grapple, avoid a grapple, or break free of a web).   One of their more awesome skills is Jack of All Trades, which many people misunderstand.  It's not 1/2 Proficiency bonus to skills you're not proficient in.  It's 1/2 Prof Bonus to ability checks that don't already get your full bonus.  That means any time a DM calls for a vague ability check that doesn't necessarily apply to a skill you still get a bonus.  Oh, and did you realize that Initiative is an Ability Check?
(Reply to #9) Marandahir	Ashrym wrote:
#12 Uchawi Aug 12, 2014 4:57:26	I hate the randomness of the song of rest. It does not take into account the bards skill, attribute bonus, or level. At least a Battlemaster can use the Rally maneuver to add temp hit point equal to their superiority dice plus their charisma modifier.
(Reply to #3) demon_idol	Ashrym wrote:
#14 Karnos Aug 12, 2014 5:55:07	I think it's great.  Not every performance is completely successful, sometimes the Bard "bombs", sometimes the Bard "stinks".  It fits.
#15 malisteen Aug 12, 2014 5:56:09	I agree with the original complaint.  The bard spell list misses the mark.  More healing, more buff, especially more mass buff.  I just don't play a bard for spells like stinking cloud.  That's the sort of spell that if a bard wants access to it they should be taking the lore path and grabbing it from another class.
#16 autolycus Aug 12, 2014 6:44:02	New edition, new Bard.   I'm willing to see how this works out.   None of the bards in the games I'm running are played by people with preconcieved notions of "appropriate" spells. They seem very happy with the class.
(Reply to #11) Ashrym	Marandahir wrote:
(Reply to #13) Ashrym	demon_idol wrote:
#19 Marandahir Aug 12, 2014 13:10:57	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #18) demon_idol	Ashrym wrote:
#21 The_Jester Aug 12, 2014 19:12:53	My bard's prefered spells in 3e were haste and glitterdust. The latter doesn't exist any more and the former isn't a bard spell and no longer buffs the party. I'm not sure why you can't cast haste as a 4th level spell and affect two people.    The bard is one of the classes I'm "meh" about. Their inspiration power is weird and dissociative, they have full spellcasting for no good reason which means they have fewer unique bardic abilities, they have few bard-only spells to justify being a full caster (and lots of spells that just don't fit the bard), and they can't even burn spell slots to do something bardic (like the paladin and smiting).
(Reply to #21) demon_idol	The_Jester wrote:
(Reply to #22) Ashrym	demon_idol wrote:
(Reply to #19) Ashrym	Marandahir wrote:
#25 Marandahir Aug 13, 2014 2:50:49	My point in bringing up 4e was the same as The_Jester's in bringing up his 3e Bard with glitterdust and haste.  This is an iconic Bard spell, and it feels pretty weird to not have it on the list by default, and having to tell my Bard players that the spell lists have been altered, or worse, ask a DM if I'm playing a Bard, if I can modify the spell list (which would sound like I'm trying to cheese the system). By the way, I also think 6th Level Bards are missing Heroes' Feast, something that was a Bard-specific Ritual in 4e, and yet now only Clerics and Druids can cast it (Obviously a Bard could choose this for Magical Secrets, but again, that's besides the point).  I have a number of problems with the spell list, and may for games that I DM be add spells all over the place, and not just to the Bard.
#26 dmgorgon Aug 13, 2014 6:53:47	In 2e bards did not have arcane spell restrictions.    I should really be up to the player what spells he wants his bard to learn.
#27 Marandahir Aug 13, 2014 9:21:27	dmgorgon wrote:
#28 Ashrym Aug 13, 2014 10:11:20	It's hard to call bard spells iconic when 1e was just druid spells, 2e was just mage spells, 3e was a custom combination that mixed 1e and 2e concepts spells, 3.5 changed 3.0 spells, 4e used a very different system as well. I think we're back at the 1e general concept holding on to arcane magic with magical secrets giving anyone more of the style he or she wants. I don't see the actual 3e or 4e spells as iconic, likely because of changes over time. As it is, I find I still rely more on skills than spells so far. The actual number of bard spells known is 1st level heavy with few from higher level bard lists while leveling as well. They only learn 11 spells above 1st level spells strictly from the bard list and 6 or 8 from any list. I really have to also question why haste at 6th level really seems like an issue when in 3.5 bards didn't get it until at least 7th level based on different progression. Magical secrets might be dismissable as not bard spells but when it says the spells are bard spells for you and count toward your known spells right in the chart that makes them bard spells too. Magical secrets is a huge portion of new spells learned while leveling and part of the mechanics to have "iconic" bard spells based on our perceptions. What level did a person need to be to get haste in 4e?
(Reply to #27) Ashrym	Marandahir wrote:
#30 Rastapopoulos Aug 13, 2014 20:22:51	dmgorgon wrote:
(Reply to #30) Ashrym	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#32 demon_idol Aug 13, 2014 23:29:03	I think that bards really need their own robust, well thought out list of spells that is not just cobbled together from other spell lists, but also contains spells that are particular to the bard, just as druids have spells that are particular to druids.  This spell list is a start, but at some levels, particularly 3rd (mostly with regards to it contianing stinking cloud), 4th (it has good spells, but has few spells when there certainly were other options available), and 6th (as per 4th). 7th is weird because of force cage (why would a bard be able to create a force cage?) and Mordenkainen's magnificient mansion (If bards can create a magnificient mansion, they can certianly create a hereos feast).   Really there should be a whole bunch of bard only spells that represent different songs, damnable sayings, charms of making, power words, etc..  I could see spells like 'song of the dancing swords' that causes numerous dancing swords to appear, or a charm of the tree army, that temporarily awakens a group of trees that obey your commands for a time, or extra power words (power word blind, power word disintigrate, power word dispell, power word transport),  shout/great shout (great shout would probably just be shout cast using a higher level slot) that does thunder damage, deafens, and stuns (lower level creatures only, with that level going up when the spell is cast using a higher level spell slot)-- stuff like that.     I
(Reply to #32) Ashrym	demon_idol wrote:
#34 Consona Aug 14, 2014 2:35:14	I think Bard should not have healing spells, it doesn't feel right to me. It makes sense for Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers, but for Bards? I don't know... The same goes for full-spellcasting. It doesn't feel right that Bard has the same number of slots as Wizards or Clerics do.