Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 2Chlorobutanal Aug 23, 2014 1:43:57	I'm a bit confused as to why Mordenkainen's Sword appears to be such an inferior 7th-level spell.   As some background, here's a thread comparing Mordenkainen's Sword to flaming sphere and spiritual weapon.   I agree with the posters in the other thread that think perhaps Mordenkainen's Sword should not require concentration, similar to spiritual weapon.   For the purposes of this thread, however, I want to compare it to Bigby's Hand, now that I have my PHB:   Assuming that Bigby's Hand is only used in the "Clenched" capacity (to be appropriately similar to M. Sword), these are the only differences I can spot between the two spells:   1.  Bigby's Hand has rules for attacking or interfering with the "hand," given that an AC, Str, Dex, and HP total are listed for the hand.  M. Sword appears unassailable, except by maybe dispel magic or disintegrate.   2.  Bigby's Hand explicitly allows the bonus action attack only on turns subsequent to the casting turn, whereas M. Sword does indeed seem to leave the possibility of a "double" attack on the turn it is cast- using the casting action to make an attack and the a further bonus action to repeat the attack.   However, Bigby's Hand does more damage per attack than M. Sword, uses a lower level spell slot, and has other uses beyond simply making a melee spell attack.  They both last for the same duration, and require the same components (Bigby's Hand actually requires cheaper Material components than M. Sword).  They're both evocations.  On top of all this, Bigby's Hand can be scaled-up by using higher-level spell slots and M. Sword cannot.  Scaling a Bigby's Hand spell into a 7th-level spell slot makes it significantly better than M. Sword for the same resource cost (8d8 damage per hit vs. 3d10).   All of these reasons, along with the previous discussion about flaming sphere and spiritual weapon seem to make Mordenkainen's Sword a pretty weak spell.   What do other people think?
#2 masterfat78 Aug 23, 2014 2:18:19	I think maybe not enough people in the alpha test spoke up about this spell.
#3 mellored Aug 23, 2014 8:17:52	MS is very much a weak spell.
#4 AtomicPope Aug 23, 2014 15:14:45	Without a doubt MS is not worth taking.  When I was looking to future spells for my Valor Bard my 1st Edition instincts were to take MS, but then I read it. Spiritual Weapon is better for Valor Bards.
#5 FallingIcicle Aug 25, 2014 4:16:26	Mordenkainen's Sword is just a really bad spell. It's too bad, because the picture of it in the PHB is really cool and really makes me want to like that spell.
#6 TheLyons Aug 25, 2014 5:01:47	I looked at the spell as usually when there's a "this thing is terribad", there's usually a less obvious useful use for it. Not so here. I think it should do the same that Bigby does in the higher slot with the fist version plus Int modifier.
#7 FFSAA Aug 25, 2014 5:31:31	masterfat78 wrote:
#8 masterfat78 Aug 25, 2014 6:29:37	FFSAA wrote:
#9 Joe_the_Rat Aug 25, 2014 8:33:11	So what would it take to bring MS up to snuff?   In parallel with spiritual weapon (it's, er, spiritual brother) and Bigby's Hand (an in-list, in-school multi-use compatriot), what do we need to see? What kind of damage is needed? Are there other effects or uses that would be apprpriate to add besides attack attack attack?
#10 ChrisCarlson Aug 25, 2014 8:35:37	Give it Parry?
#11 masterfat78 Aug 25, 2014 8:36:00	Joe_the_Rat wrote:
#12 Einlanzer Aug 25, 2014 20:00:44	I think just making it work like SW by letting it add caster damage and not require concentration would put it about on par. There's a good chance that was the original intent anyway and it was nerfed thoughtlessly and/or overlooked in the final version of the PHB. It basically would do damage in-between SW at 6th and 8th levels and would retain usefulness over BH by not requiring Concentration.    The fact that it's a standard casting action and instead of a bonus action isn't all bad since it gives you the ability to attack twice with it on the first turn, so I'd probably just leave that alone. It also makes it okay that the damage dealt would be closer to a 6th level SW rather than an 8th level one.
#13 2Chlorobutanal Aug 26, 2014 8:53:38	I agree that dropping the concentration requirement would probably make the spell useful enough and also different from Bigby's Hand.  Mordenkainen's Sword has always been a higher-level spell in D&D, if I recall correctly, so I wouldn't necessarily want to lower its level.   Leaving in the possibility of the "double attack trick" seems fair enough for me, otherwise the spell doesn't have a whole lot going for it.