Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Vyshaantyr Jan 06, 2015 19:21:14	https://www.dropbox.com/s/xlalat4zj1uded2/The%20Bladesinger%281%29.pdf?dl=0   the first chart got a bit compressed.  Enjoy!
#2 rampant Jan 06, 2015 19:47:51	It helps if you post htese in a format that doesn't require signing in to a differnet service in order to view.
(Reply to #2) Vyshaantyr	rampant wrote:
#4 cowleymen Jan 06, 2015 20:11:09	Google docs from word format. plenty of other free host site that would let you view and edit pdf formats online as well.
(Reply to #4) Vyshaantyr	cowleymen wrote:
#6 cowleymen Jan 06, 2015 23:20:14	ah but no one wants to register for a site just to see one thing.   One thing I have to ask for curiousity, do half-elves get hunted down for knowing this style?   but with a first reading, the feat at 2 level is way to damn powerful. Automatic disadvantage at all times, and advantage on attackers who missed you, way way to power. Have to get rid of that.   elven dueling should be changed to just the dueling fighting style, to prevent a one level fighter dip to get +4 to one handed swings.    those are just first glance. Im really interested in this, and am wondering if you would let me adapt it as well for my purposes.   Also, this makes me think right away of Elrond and his daughter Erwyn, which is great.
(Reply to #6) Vyshaantyr	cowleymen wrote:
#8 Vyshaantyr Jan 07, 2015 7:45:31	What do you think about :   Bladesong (feat) You learn the intricate steps of the bladesong fighting style, using graceful dance-like steps to avoid being hit while at the same time setting your opponents off-balance for a deadly counterstrike. -          When you wield a melee weapon in one hand and nothing on the other, you may add your proficiency bonus to your AC.   The exception to this is surprise, as the character must be able to know and see his enemy in order for the bonus to apply. -          When an opponent misses you, you have advantage on the next attack roll against the opponent who missed you.  If you attack a different opponent, or fail to attack at all on the next turn, the advantage is lost.     Some past history: The 2e bladesinger had half his level as an AC bonus, which got ridiculous. The 3E and 3.5e had his Intelligence as an AC bonus = not to exceed his level I tried to avoid adding a flat out bonus in favor of disadvantage, but maybe just a simple bonus like proficiency.  Or I could do Int. like 3e
#9 Vyshaantyr Jan 07, 2015 10:30:49	https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eIuJyElmtxO_y0lA2zqd8YOcx5pFVME0rW4hcJlcPB8/pub   I have retouched the class.  Fixed the class chart and changed the bladesong ability from disadvantage to +int to ac as per 3.5e ruleset.
#10 Vyshaantyr Jan 07, 2015 10:51:08	I don't know what to do about half elves.  I guess if a half elf had a good roleplaying reason I as a DM would probably allow it.  As long as the half elf continues to be emo about being half an elf that is.
#11 cowleymen Jan 07, 2015 11:10:18	I definetly dont think it should be a feat, but you should retweek Unarmored Defense to work for your superior defense. Works with leather armor but not medium armor. SPeaking of which, is it nessicary to add medium armor at thrid level? perhaps instead of medium armor you could add half prof. mod. Full prof. would give them, (assuming dex of just 18) armor class that is almost as good as full plate at 5th level. Not to mention, your feat combines two different class features, and makes your Bladesinger the best gish that can be played. The defense bonus is not bad, but the second bullet is by far one of the best ability ive seen in any class. Getting advantage on swings so easily, while not gamebreaking, is extremly powerful. And they should be class features, not a "feat" you gain at second level. One thing that you have to keep in mind when converting to 5e, is that feats are optional, what happens when a dm says "no feats in this game"
#12 Vyshaantyr Jan 07, 2015 12:27:03	Thanks for the feedback.   how about this:   Remove armored mage, only light armor now.   Bladesong (no longer a feat)   Bladesong You learn the intricate steps of the bladesong fighting style, using graceful dance-like steps to avoid being hit while at the same time setting your opponents off-balance for a deadly counterstrike. -          When you wield a melee weapon in one hand with nothing in the other, and wear light armor or no armor, you may add your intelligence bonus to your AC.   The exception to this is surprise, as the character must be able to know and see his enemy in order for the bonus to apply. -          When an opponent misses you, you may add half your intelligence bonus, rounded up on the next attack roll against the opponent who missed you.  If you attack a different opponent, or fail to attack at all on the next turn, the advantage is lost.  (My other thought was allowing the bladesinger to use half the difference between the attack roll and the characters AC on a miss.  That might put quite a strain on the math though).  Or we could go with a simple non scaling bonus, +1 or 2 to attack.
#13 ChrisCarlson Jan 07, 2015 12:37:12	IMO, being able to add your full Intelligence modifier to your already light armor + dex AC is broken. No other class or ability I can think of seems to allow for such a huge AC increase. Am I missing something?
#14 Vyshaantyr Jan 07, 2015 13:10:41	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#15 ChrisCarlson Jan 07, 2015 13:15:16	Vyshaantyr wrote:
#16 Swamp_slug Jan 07, 2015 13:22:03	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#17 Vyshaantyr Jan 07, 2015 13:28:19	Swamp_slug wrote:
#18 Warder17 Jan 07, 2015 22:23:00	Not to rain on your parade or something but isn't a bladesinger simply an elven Eldrich knight? And if not, shouldn't it be a fighter sub-class?   Warder
#19 Vyshaantyr Jan 07, 2015 22:56:18	Warder17 wrote:
#20 ChrisCarlson Jan 08, 2015 7:14:58	In my personal opinion, you are putting too much weight on the name of things...   Really, if you want to emulate a bladesinger in 5e, just multiclass fighter (battle master)/wizard. That way you can take the maneuvers that let you parry, riposte, etc. and also be a spellcaster.   Because another thing that needs addressing (that I never got around to earlier) is that your homebrew is also a full caster. On top of all his badass fighter-y stuff. Plus, now you are tacking on the requisite ASI/feat access. In short, I think the whole thing is way overpowered.
#21 Vyshaantyr Jan 08, 2015 9:02:17	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #21) Diffan	Vyshaantyr wrote:
#23 ChrisCarlson Jan 08, 2015 13:00:06	Diffan wrote:
(Reply to #23) Diffan	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#25 Jenks Jan 08, 2015 13:59:45	It definately has some interesting flavour. Other than the AC ability that's been brought up before, my only other gripe is the fact that they seems to get a lot of Eldritch Knight style stuff AND 9 levels of spellcasting. Seems a bit much.   Deffinately dig the flavor tho.
#26 Pompadour64 Jan 08, 2015 14:35:18	This class looks awesome and something I would love to play, but I'm afraid a large part of the reason for that is that it appears expremely powerful. It does anything and everything, and has no apparent weaknesses that I can see. Other classes are balanced such that they are really good in one or two areas at the cost of being bad in others, but this class is just good at everything.    You say there is no way to get the same feeling from current classes, but it seems to me like this is just a better version of the eldritch knight. And if you don't want to go exactly that route, I'm sure there is some other class that could use the "Defensive Duelist" feat to get the same feel.    I don't say this to discourage your creativity. I admire your attempt, and I can tell you've put a lot of work into it. Definitely keep working. I just think you want this class to be awesome, so you make it awesome by making it an allstar at everything. But within the construct of the game, classes need to be balanced against other classes. Instead of considering all of the things this class should be good at, I suggest starting revisions by imagining the things this class would be lacking in. I would start with spell level availability. This class should probably be, at most, a "half-caster" class, like the ranger.
#27 Vyshaantyr Jan 09, 2015 10:09:49	I'll incude half-elves for the apparent half-elf loving crowd.  Just FYI if I were DMing the class I would like to see a pretty good roleplaying reason for a half-elf to take this class.  A half-elf that grew up in a human city with his human parents should have no business taking this IMO.  Hower a half-elf who grew up in say Evereska and attended the College of War and Magic would certainly have access to this.   When coming up with the class I tried to build it on a bard shell and added some fighter with mage spells.  I do agree the bladesinger feat is too much.  Gonna remove it and try something else.   I have thought about building it as a new college for the bard.  Instead of buffing everyone else you buff yourself kinda thing.   Not sure about 9th level spell access.  I understand that a 9th level spell is still decent, but mage progression is nowhere as powerful as it was in 3.5e.  I mean a 20th level mage in 3.5e had 3 9th level spells, (more if he had a high int, which was very easily attained in 3.5e) he could cast before rememorizing.    Nowadays the magic is pretty tuned down due to cantrips.  At 20th level you get one 9th level spell, 1 8th level spell.  Nice, but not as gamebreaking as say...casting 3 Shapechange to Ancient dragon spells in 3.5e.   I don't know, we'll see on the playtest.     I looked at the Eldritch Knight, and I like him.  But the EK is very Melee centric.  I mean he gets 4 attacks, heavy armor, shields or dual wield, action surges, tons of feats.  That dude is a fighter through and through with a handful of minor spells to help him out.  I'd buff him with abjuration spells for offense and defense and set him to swinging.     The Bard also has some abilities scimilar to the EK, so sharing a bit seems ok.  The bard gets 9th level spells (and heal spells) but as a tradeoff is not as nearly melee centric as the EK.  Although it does get 2 attacks + spells medium armor and shields.   Is there a way to combine these two?  Into a one handed light armor fighter/mage type?  I am looking at some of the old D&D next feats.  And Rogue survivability abilities.  Rogues aren't frontline though.  Tsk.  Barbarians?  Maybe.
(Reply to #27) Diffan	Vyshaantyr wrote:
#29 Vyshaantyr Jan 14, 2015 13:03:56	Wanted to thank you guys for the feedback. It was great.   I have made some changes to the bladesinger. These changes forced my character to make some choices during battles, which I loved.  Here is the new link.   https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QS-6l5HDbX7-BuacHYLuUwvnKiUY2mH2v_XzJg2XKQY/edit?usp=sharing   To summarize: 1. Half-elves can now be bladesingers! 2. Reduced the spell levels so he maxes out at 7th level spells. This also slowed down his spell progression. 3. Number of spells he can prepare cut from int + level to int + half level (rounded up) This reflects the fact that the bladesinger cannot store as many prepared spells as the wizard. He's busy practicing with his sword to focus entirely on spell memorization exercises. 4. Lost medium armor! That's right, he is now a light armor wearer or no armor wearer. 5. Retooled the bladesong ability. Basically the Defensive Duelist feat + the Seize the Advantage feat from D&D next. Defensive Duelist requires a reaction, so it is good for evading one attack. It is now a core ability, kinda like fighters get extra feats plus action surges etc and no longer a feat. 6. Moved Elven mantle to 9th level and changed it to the D&D next feat Defensive Ward. Reduced it's effectiveness to only the bladesinger (cannot give it to another like the old feat). It now requires a reaction, forcing the bladesinger to choose between it or the bladesong Defensive Duelist Ability (I like tough choices in a class). 7. Song of Celerity - used the bard skald progression and left it at 6th level. 8. Spellblade - once again used the bard skald ability at level 14 and left it as is. The bard get's as many attacks as the bladesinger, and has this ability at 14...with 9th level spells, medium armor, and a shield. It'll be alright I promise. 9. Song of Fury - can now only return 5th level or lower spells per crit.   Thanks again all who provided feedback. (Got some on the candlekeep boards as well). Feel free to adapt this class as you Grognards see fit.
#30 cbwjm Jan 14, 2015 13:53:25	Just thought I'd point out that a barbarian is dex + con + shield to AC so the Bladesinger would have comparable AC to a barbarian (sword & board) if the Bladesinger was able to add light armour + dex + int for AC.
#31 Pompadour64 Jan 14, 2015 14:21:22	Glad to see you adapting the constructive criticism well! The class is looking a lot more balanced now. that said, a few things: 2. 7th level still seems pretty generous, but it's much better than the full casting of before, so I can't complain. 4. Glad to see this 5. I like the way you retooled this. Bravo. 8. I like that you modeled it after the bard's skill, but you (perhaps unknowingly) improved it a bit. The Bard ability allows only 1 attack and uses up your bonus action. Not sure if this is completely broken, but something to consider patching.    A few points of clarification and suggestion: 1. For Silver Fire, does he/she have to hold the concentration through to their next turn? I was a bit confused with this, because there aren't many circumstances in which your concentration would be broken during your own turn. And if they don't have to hold it until then, this ability seems a bit too powerful. Without that concentration bit, I'd like to see it a bit more like second wind.  2. Arcane Strike feels a bit like just a different Extra Attack mechanic. I would remove this and add to Song of Celerity that you can forego one weapon attack to use a cantrip attack spell (or something like that) and add something different at 4th level. When I picture this class, I picture it dancing in and out of combat with creatures, so perhaps something like the rogue's cunning action which allows the use of a bonus action to disengage or dash.  3. A few rules questions come up with Song of Vengeance. You use the term "bonus reaction," so is this something that doesn't use a character's one allowed reaction? If so, can the Bladesinger do this as many times as attacks miss? Seems too good, if that's the case. I would like to see it as an addition to the Bladesong ability such that when a melee attack misses, use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against the attacking creature. I know your reaction economy is getting pretty crowded, but you did say you like tough decisions. Counterattack your enemy and leave your defenses down for another attack, or ignore the opportunity in order to hold a more defensive position?  4. Not sure where you could work it in, and it would be way too powerful for lower levels, but it would be really sweet if the Bladesinger had the ability to take the dodge action as a bonus action. Probably way too powerful at any level, but it seems right on flavor.  5. Would be cool if those offensive uses of Silver Fire could exist in a cantrip form.