Bless=Broken?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Zardnaar

Oct 09, 2014 6:42:27

 

 So my PCs have hit level 8 now in one party and the game where I get to play in we are at level 5 and there is a pattern starting to emerge.

 

 Bless is hands down the best level 1 spell in the game. It is so good it is often better than level 2 spells and sometimes level 3 spells as well if you cast it in a higher level slot.

 

 One drawback however is the concentration mechanic. IN my group where I get to play I have the warcaster feat. Advantage on saves and if you bless yourself as one of the targets you get an extra 1d4 on concentration saves as well. I normally bless the half orc fighter, the Druid (she has barkskin running requires concentration), and myself in order to keep the bless effect up.

 

 The other  group is a 6 member party and has two clerics tempest and war. One of them (tempest cleric) has the warcaster feat, the other one wishes he took it.  Bless is usually used on the polearm fighter, hunter ranger and the other war cleric.

 

 I thought Faerie fire was a good spell as I saw the bard using it and the light cleric can cast it. Nopes bless is just better as it is more reliable. As it turns out Faerie fire is a great buff spell for PCs who can't cast bless which basically means Druids, Bards and maybe some warlocks but they will be busy using hex instead.

 

 In 5E you do not get a large amount of spells to go around. By level 3 you have arounbd 5 spells available and that means 5 encounters with bless assuming you took the warcaster or resilent feat. At level 5 it looks like my cleric is going to be proficient in constitution saves via the wizards philosophers stone as well as the warcaster feat as I would be willing to bless the wizard, druid and fighter in that party and probably the rogue as well using a level 2 spell slot.

 

 Bless is just better than every other level 1 spell it seems with maybe hex and hunters quarry being exceptions for those classes who like them. Much like hex and hunters quarry its just better than and obsoletes most of the other level 1 spells in the game and most of the other buff spells as well with haste being one exception and you can't cast that but putting bless on the wizard helps keep that up as well.

 

 Every time I cast a level 1 spell that is not bless I feel a little bit sub par. 

 

#2

kalil

Oct 09, 2014 7:27:27

The value of Bless depends entirely on how long your fights are. In my experience (which is admittedly only low level play) fights run 2-4 rounds, which means that the Bless is barely worth the standard action to cast it. My favourite 1st level spells (based on observation above) are Sleep (flat out "kills" multiple enemies, no save), Shield (flat out negates a hit that could easily one-shot me) and Healing Word (heal a buddy AND kill a dork, thereby negating an attack).

#3

FFSAA

Oct 09, 2014 7:58:42

Yes, it's obviously too good.  It is also a + effect which (helps) breaks bounded accuracy.  They only kept it in because it adds another die and people are like OMG rolling more dice is MORE FUN, I love advantage!

#4

Saelorn

Oct 09, 2014 10:53:04

Most buff spells are rarely worth the action required to cast them. Of the rest, most are cast as a bonus action and/or last long enough that you can cast it at the start of the day and have it still going when you need it.

 

From what I recall, Bless is neither of those things. Thus, it has to be incredibly powerful in order to justify spending your action for the round. At an average bonus of +2.5 per d20 rolled, it doesn't even break even in terms of action economy unless the recipients of the spell make 8 or more checks during the encounter. It's entirely possible that you could cast this, thus wasting a turn and a spell slot, and the die will never even make a difference to the outcome of any rolls!

#5

Ashrym

Oct 09, 2014 10:55:14

Faerie fire picks up more value as feats are taken to trade off attack roll for damage.  It's the same reason reckless attack is good.  If you want to play with something strong and more interesting you might want to take another look at dissonant whispers.  3d6 damage, reaction denial for the rest of the turn, and allows for multiple attacks of opportunity.  It's easy to set up for 3 attacks of opportunity, including the bard who cast it if necessary.  That's pretty good damage for a first level spell, and it allows other PC's to move past the target after without risking opportunity attacks as an added perk.

#6

kalil

Oct 09, 2014 11:04:04

Saelorn wrote:
#7

Saelorn

Oct 09, 2014 11:08:31

kalil wrote:
#8

kalil

Oct 09, 2014 11:13:55

Saelorn wrote:
#9

Dracones

Oct 09, 2014 12:14:43

kalil wrote:
#10

edwin_su

Oct 09, 2014 12:10:58

I have seen priests that just cast bless then hide/move into cover untill they are needed to heal.

 

It seems to be a comon/effective  tactic when it comes to powerfull consentration spells, cast it and remove yourselve from the combat.

 

#11

Saelorn

Oct 09, 2014 12:17:20

Dracones wrote:
#12

Lawolf

Oct 09, 2014 12:25:47

Don't forget that after the first round, bless helps the cleric who cast it too. Remember bless increases your chance of success by roughly 12%, but actually increases your effectiveness by more than that.

 

For example: Assuming a player hits 50% of the time, a 10% increase in accuracy is actually a 20% increase in effectiveness. (50 + 10 = 60. 60 = 1.2 x 50)

 

So bless is more closely equal to

+60% damage on round 1 and even more on round 2 when the cleric can also attack.

 

Oh yeah, a fighter, barbarian, warlock, or oter damage dealing class does significantly more damage than a cleric. So really, buffing them is typically more potent than using your action so the percentage of increase isn't that precise. A cleric's action might deal 10 DPR  while a fighter might deal 15 DPR. Using bless to increase 3 PCs from 15 to 18 DPR ends up basically coming in even after just 1 round.

 

All in all, I think bless is too potent for a level 1 spell, but not broken. I would have preferred it provide a +1 bonus as a level 1 slot, a +2 bonus as a level 3 slot, a +3 bonus as a level 5 slot, a +4 bonus as a level 7 slot, and a +5 bonus as a level 9 slot. 

#13

Mistwell

Oct 09, 2014 12:28:03

It's OK.  Our Cleric does use it, and has for the past year and a half.  But he tends to get more utility out of healing spells.

#14

Dracones

Oct 09, 2014 12:35:38

Was curious, so I mathed it out. Level 11 characters vs AC 16 monster:

 

Champion no bless 3 attacks: +1 greatsword: 70.6, legendary greatsword:  111

Champion bless 3 attacks:  +1 greatsword: 88.95, legendary greatsword:  136.2

 

Hunter ranger no bless, 3 targets: +1 longbow: 90.5, legendary longbow: 109

Hunter ranger bless, 3 targets: +1 longbow: 98.19, legendary longbow: 119.7

 

So a per round boost of 18.35/25.2 on the champion and 7.69/10.7 on the hunter.

 

Looks like a really good spell if you have fighters in the party. To compare at that level evoker level 3-4 slot spells are in the upper 20's per target after saving throws are accounted for. A bless will compare with that if you get a couple rounds off or have fighters action surging. 3 rounds on a single legendary greatsword champ is like a level 3 fireball hitting 3 targets(4 if he surges).

 

But if you don't have multi-attack martials in the partial it probably doesn't perform well.

#15

pukunui

Oct 09, 2014 13:59:33

In the Age of Worms campaign I'm playing in, the tempest cleric PC sometimes casts bless on us, but there are also other concentration spells he likes to cast, so we don't always get it.

 

No one is playing a cleric in my Legacy of the Crystal Shard game. In my Lost Mine of Phandelver game, the cleric is currently a DMPC and mostly just casts heal spells.

#16

Zardnaar

Oct 09, 2014 14:55:00

In our group bless helps to negate the penalty from great weapon style so there is +10 dmage off that and the ranger is taking sharpshooter at level 8. We have been keeping track of misses that turn into hits and bless on average is probably doing over 30 damage. Everyone is multiattacking by now and the polearm fighter for example gets 3 attacks a round, the war cleric is often cleaving stuff and has the great weapon feat up.

#17

Zardnaar

Oct 09, 2014 14:57:24

kalil wrote:
#18

trebor_rjf

Oct 09, 2014 15:55:24

i've found its effectiveness is lowered by people's inability to remember that they've been blessed (myself included). 

#19

Rhenny

Oct 09, 2014 16:20:23

Depending on what type of cleric you play, bless plays differently.   If you are a war cleric, bless may not be such a good spell because you may be in melee combat so you are more susceptible to taking damage and losing concentration.   If you are a light cleric, you'll use it and hang back.  You'll play more defensively and be less likely to get up into combat.

 

So far, it hasn't made so much of a difference in our games from 1st - 4th level.    Since our cleric can't cast a ton of spells, he doesn't use bless every combat.   He holds some spells in reserve for when he needs to heal or if he needs to give everyone that extra boost.  

 

+2.5 average does not mess up the math (at least in game play from 1-4th level).

 

 

#20

Strill

Oct 09, 2014 16:21:59

kalil wrote:
#21

Mistwell

Oct 09, 2014 16:28:30

Dracones wrote:
#22

Dracones

Oct 09, 2014 16:44:53

Mistwell wrote:
#23

Zardnaar

Oct 09, 2014 16:47:45

Dracones wrote:
#24

UngeheuerLich

Oct 10, 2014 12:13:33

Zardnaar wrote:
#25

Mistwell

Oct 10, 2014 12:46:13

Bards are broken OMG the game is busted waaaa!

[a week passes]

Faerie Fire Spell is broken OMG the game is busted waaaa!

[a week passes]

Bless spell is broken OMG the game is busted waaa!

[a week passes]

The Master feats of Great Weapon, Heavy Armor, Polearm, and Shield are all broken OMG the game is busted waaa!

 

What's next week Zard? AC? Hit Points? Skill checks?

#26

Timborama

Oct 10, 2014 13:23:10

Expertise

#27

Zardnaar

Oct 10, 2014 16:00:57

Mistwell wrote:
#28

Zardnaar

Oct 10, 2014 16:03:58

UngeheuerLich wrote:
#29

Psikerlord

Oct 10, 2014 21:31:14

edwin_su wrote:
#30

arnwolf666

Oct 11, 2014 1:31:15

OMG players casting spells to accomplish things that would normally be more difficult.  What next?

#31

EzechielDantan

Oct 11, 2014 3:12:32

Bless is more powerful than many people give it credit for, a fighter that has 50% chance to hit with an attack dealing 22 damage on a hit has a dpa of 11 dmg.

With bless this fighter has a 62.5% to hit meaning the dpa goes up not by 12.5% but 25%, to 13.75 dmg.

 

If cast on 3 characters in the party it will likely have paid off after the 2nd round assuming two similar fighters and also blessing yourself, since the save bonus is very handy to keep your concentration up. it is far from a trap option but the cleric could probably be doing more damage if he chose to burn more resurces, the save bonus is very good though and seals the deal, making concentration spells more dependable to keep up and reducing damage significantly in dangerous encounters.

#32

Lawolf

Oct 11, 2014 9:25:40

EzechielDantan wrote:
#33

Mistwell

Oct 11, 2014 10:16:41

Lawolf wrote:
(Reply to #31)

Ashrym

EzechielDantan wrote:
#35

kalil

Oct 11, 2014 10:23:11

Lawolf wrote:
#36

Lawolf

Oct 11, 2014 12:54:13

Ashrym wrote:
#37

Zardnaar

Oct 11, 2014 13:12:47

Lawolf wrote:
#38

UngeheuerLich

Oct 11, 2014 15:36:34

Bless is really good, as many other spells too. Even an increase of 25% and 3 damage on average, it has to keep up with spells that do their damage instantly. In the first round, it will maybe kick in once, so it just negates the fact that the cleric gave up his action. So it is a high risk/high reward spell.

#39

Granville7482

Oct 11, 2014 23:05:31

It's a great spell and our light cleric tries to use it whenever possible. Yeah it makes DPR better but you still have the variable 1 to 4 on rolls. For all the number crunching and statistics, greeaaaaaat... In actual play It gives very mixed results. Then again i'm always hoping it will help me out with bad saving throwb scores and it never does!

(Reply to #37)

Ashrym

Zardnaar wrote:
#41

Ramzour

Oct 12, 2014 1:16:38

I think people here on these forums need to learn what the term "broken" means. Just because a spell is good to cast in some situations doesn't mean the spell is "broken".

 

WORDS. THEY HAVE MEANINGS. LET'S USE THEM.

#42

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 3:37:52

Ramzour wrote:
#43

Ramzour

Oct 12, 2014 4:46:58

That doesn't prove anything is "broken", though. All you've shown is that the spell is effective when cast on characters that use weapons. And yeah, that's kind of the point.

 

Is Bless a "must cast" in every situation? No, not at all. Since most combats only last 2-3 rounds, it's not always expedient to use a level 1 spell slot for offense. Sometimes it's better to use that spell slot AFTER the battle for a Cure Wounds. Or maybe a Guiding Bolt spell to deal a blast of damage and give Advantage on the next attack (possibly setting up a Sneak Attack, for instance). 

 

Not broken. Just situationally useful.

#44

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 5:07:03

Ramzour wrote:
#45

Mistwell

Oct 12, 2014 7:22:28

Like I said earlier, Zard just changes his mind every week on what's the broken thing.  Last week he was making these same claims about Fairie Fire, and now note he's over his own complaints and suddenly claiming Bless is the broken spell...though last week he had no such complaints about Bless.  Next week it will be something else.

#46

ORC_Ragnar

Oct 12, 2014 7:30:13

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#47

spelley

Oct 12, 2014 9:57:02

It is a spell that is useful and stays relevant even as levels increase, at the cost of your Concentration (and an Action if you don't have a chance to cast it before). Seems like it's just a good spell?

#48

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 11:00:22

Mistwell wrote:
#49

Ramzour

Oct 12, 2014 11:17:03

"The Thief is the best healer in the game" - Zardnaar

 

This statement renders your whole argument quite silly.

 

Anyway, there are more important aspects of playing D&D than hitting with attack rolls. No doubt Bless is a great spell for winning combats, but that does not mean it's "broken".

(Reply to #48)

AaronOfBarbaria

Zardnaar wrote:
#51

Rhenny

Oct 12, 2014 11:56:02

 

 

 

So far the adventuring day for my 1st-4th level pcs consists of about 8-10 encounters.   Even if the cleric just used bless, which has never been the case, that would leave 3-5 encounters where bless would not even be a factor.  

 

Also, in some encounters with bless, the cleric would take damage round 1 or 2 and lose the spell.  

 

 

#52

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 12:07:45

Ramzour wrote:
#53

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 12:16:38

Rhenny wrote:
#54

danyc

Oct 12, 2014 13:01:38

Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #7)

FrogReaver

Saelorn wrote:
#56

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 14:13:49

danyc wrote:
#57

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 14:22:52

FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #56)

danyc

Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #53)

Rhenny

Zardnaar wrote:
#60

RCanine

Oct 12, 2014 16:02:03

I'd like to point out that Zaardnar's reports are based on his in-game experience, not some white room theorycrafting, and a lot of the rebuttals have been white room math. That said, it sounds like the issue has less to do with bless and more to do with Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter. It sounds like Zardnaar's group are heavy party optimizers. D&D doesn't have a great solution for that, other than to vary the challenges to make that specific strategy less relevant. For example:

 

  • Large hordes of low-hp monsters make bless and bonus damage less useful
  • Effects like paralysis, petrification and stuns that automatically disrupt concentration
  • Out-of-combat challenges that cost the group spell slots
  • Throw at them lots of super easy fights where high DPR is overkill.

That said, it sounds like the PCs aren't really looking for a challenge. It's nice to counter their tactics, but giving them a chance to dominate combats while still telling a fun story might be what they're looking for.

#61

danyc

Oct 12, 2014 16:57:44

It doesn't sound over-optimized to me, it sounds like more or less normal play with various features working as intended, and the player making an overexaggerated fuss about it with no justification. Sharpshooter and GWM are obvious enough feats for their respective characters, and they're designed so you can get some oomph out of (albeit slowly) scaling attacks, bonuses and advantage that the party picks up against fairly static ACs. Bless and faerie fire are pretty obvious choices for buff casters. If his fights are too easy, its probably because the DM isn't experienced or doesn't really understand the CR design or pacing expectations of 5e.

 

A lot of players on this forum (this one especially, evidently) like to declare anything remotely more effective than something else broken. I think it's hyperbolic. Broken isn't just 'this is a great choice', it's not even 'this is the best choice' (because there will always be a best and a worst). Broken is 'this is so strong that you have to redesign the rest of your game around it'. For spells, contagion might qualify, but bless falls way, way, way short.

#62

JerboaTheFeared

Oct 12, 2014 17:06:50

Quick question for Zaardnar. How often are the buffers forced to take concentration saves?

 

Is it possible that concentration buffs are more powerful at your table because they are interrupted less often than in some other posters' games?

 

 

#63

Mistwell

Oct 12, 2014 17:34:47

Zardnaar wrote:
#64

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 17:55:01

JerboaTheFeared wrote:
(Reply to #59)

Angel_of_the_Dawn

Rhenny wrote:
#66

Psikerlord

Oct 12, 2014 19:39:24

Mistwell wrote:
#67

Psikerlord

Oct 12, 2014 19:47:51

Rhenny wrote:
#68

Zardnaar

Oct 12, 2014 19:50:35

Psikerlord wrote:
#69

Malicea

Oct 12, 2014 20:07:19

Uh, there's no real need to calculate the exact DPR gain. Working with percentages is fine, and the miscalculation of some of the earlier posters is based on a misunderstanding of the difference between a percentage increase, and a percentage point increase. http://www.mathsisfun.com/percentage-points.html

 

Bless provides a 12.5 percentage point increase on hit rate, and thus damage output, not 12.5%. The actual percentage increase of damage from the spell thus depends on the base hit rate. As some posters have calculated above, if you assume a base hit rate of 50%, Bless increases that by 12.5 percentage points to 62.5%, which yields a 25% increase in DPR on average, per recipient.

 

The lower the base hit rate is, the more effective Bless is. To take an extreme example, if you're only hitting on 20s (5%), Bless increases that to a 17.5% hit rate, which is an amazing 250% increase in DPR per recipient!

 

The reverse is true. The higher the base hit rate, the less effective the spell. If your base hit rate is 75% (6s to hit), Bless raises that to 87.5%, which is a 16.7% increase in DPR per recipient, yielding an overall 50% DPR increase in total when cast on 3 targets - breaking even with the loss of the cleric's action in 2 turns, assuming that the cleric's base DPR is about the same as the average DPR from the 3 recipients.

 

Note that targets with a much higher damage output, such as fighters burning action points, etc, will make Bless even more worthwhile.

 

The conclusion is simply that unless you're hitting almost every time (85% and above), or unless the cleric is somehow the highest DPR in the party, Bless is a no-brainer cast. This does assume that the calculation is based purely on action economy - that you have more casts of Bless available than a typical number of encounters in a day, and that you are capable of maintaining concentration.

(Reply to #59)

FrogReaver

Rhenny wrote:
(Reply to #69)

FrogReaver

Malicea wrote:
#72

danyc

Oct 12, 2014 21:43:43

Malicea wrote:
(Reply to #70)

Rhenny

FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #72)

FrogReaver

danyc wrote:
(Reply to #74)

danyc

FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #75)

FrogReaver

danyc wrote:
(Reply to #76)

danyc

FrogReaver wrote:
(Reply to #77)

FrogReaver

danyc wrote:
#79

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 1:00:26

Zardnaar wrote:
#80

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 1:23:09

Zardnaar wrote:
#81

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 1:34:07

Ramzour wrote:
#82

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 1:57:41

Zardnaar wrote:
#83

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 2:03:22

Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #25)

1eejit

Mistwell wrote:
(Reply to #78)

danyc

FrogReaver wrote:
#86

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 3:21:17

Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #72)

Malicea

danyc wrote:
#88

Malicea

Oct 13, 2014 3:24:50

Ramzour wrote:
#89

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 4:02:58

Malicea wrote:
#90

arnwolf666

Oct 13, 2014 4:13:52

The way I read the bless spell is that it affects either a save or attack, then the spell is done for that person.  I don't read that spell as affecting every attack roll or save for the full minute or until the cleric's concentration is broken.

#91

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 4:18:22

arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #91)

arnwolf666

Ramzour wrote:
#93

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 4:25:32

arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #93)

arnwolf666

Ramzour wrote:
#95

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 4:45:00

I see what you're saying. However, that interpretation is wrong. For added proof, this came up in a live play game by wizards and they used the bonus every round. I assume the devs know how to play their own game! 

(Reply to #95)

arnwolf666

Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #95)

arnwolf666

Ramzour wrote:
#98

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 4:59:27

The spell says "whenever a target makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends". (Basic rules, p85)

 

That means they get a bonus

every time they make an attack or make a save. If they make 10 attacks and 25 saving throws, they get a d4 on each of those rolls until the spell ends.

 

The spell's duration MEANS something. It's not just there for flavor. The spell's effects persist for the duration of the spell. (basic rules, p79) 

 

(Reply to #98)

arnwolf666

Ramzour wrote:
#100

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 5:20:20

arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #64)

JerboaTheFeared

Zardnaar wrote:
#102

ChrisCarlson

Oct 13, 2014 7:10:40

Mistwell wrote:
#103

Malicea

Oct 13, 2014 7:37:24

Ramzour wrote:
#104

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 7:45:58

Malicea wrote:
#105

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 10:05:44

1eejit wrote:
#106

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 10:15:40

Ramzour wrote:
#107

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 10:27:02

JerboaTheFeared wrote:
#108

autolycus

Oct 13, 2014 10:26:15

For it to be "broken" it would have to make the game not work properly any more.

 

Having run and played the game with the Bless spell, the game works perfectly fine with it's inclusion.

 

Thus, not broken.

#109

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 10:33:16

Ramzour wrote:
#110

spelley

Oct 13, 2014 10:42:00

autolycus wrote:
#111

Demosthenes2054

Oct 13, 2014 11:09:15

Zardnaar wrote:
#112

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 11:23:47

Demosthenes2054 wrote:
(Reply to #87)

danyc

Malicea wrote:
#114

Elfcrusher

Oct 13, 2014 12:27:51

The real question is what Zaardnar continues to play 5e when he clearly hates it.  Am I imagining things or is every thread that he starts about how broken 5e is?

#115

Ramzour

Oct 13, 2014 14:42:23

Zardnaar wrote:
#116

Shasarak

Oct 13, 2014 14:52:30

Elfcrusher wrote:
#117

ChrisCarlson

Oct 13, 2014 14:59:55

Although one may technically only be "imagining that pigs can fly" when a porcine is promptly catapulted over one's head, the fact remains that a pig did just soar over one's head. That is hard to discount.

 

Just sayin'...

#118

Mistwell

Oct 13, 2014 15:15:51

Elfcrusher wrote:
(Reply to #117)

AaronOfBarbaria

ChrisCarlson wrote:
#120

ChrisCarlson

Oct 13, 2014 15:21:26

AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#121

Rhenny

Oct 13, 2014 15:56:44

What I kind of find in the game is that most of the times, a PC is attacking a foe with an AC that averages about 12 to 14.   (This is based on my level 1-4 play...but even higher level monsters tend to have lower ACs than previous editions).

 

At low levels, the attacks are at +5 or +6 (+7 for archers with that fighter specialization).   There is only about a 30% chance of miss anyway.

 

That means that the extra bonus granted by bless only applies 30% of the time.   Then we have to see if the raw attack would have missed and the bless makes it hit to see if their is a marginal benefit from the spell.

 

In some rounds, all the combatants might have hit anyway so there is no marginal benefit from casting the spell.   In other rounds, only 1 of the 3 will benefit from the additional to hit bonus.  It will be rare if 2 or 3 of the blessed PCs will benefit from the spell in any given round.   Someone who knows math should figure out the marginal gain for different situations.   It may actually mean that 1 out of 3 PCs will hit instead of miss.   That's nice, but it doesn't seem game breaking.

 

The marginal benefit of the spell is even more difficult to determine when the AC of a creature is higher.

 

Against a creature with an AC of 18, a +6 to hit...there is a 55% chance to miss, which makes it more likely that the blessed PC will benefit from the bless spell, but because the initial d20 attack roll and the d4 bless roll are random, the spell still may only benefit 1 of the PCs (or none in some cases depending on the rolls).  

 

The math is more complicated than what it seems at first look, and since it is variable, I do not see how the spell can be termed broken.

 

 

#122

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 16:36:38

Ramzour wrote:
#123

Rhenny

Oct 13, 2014 17:43:00

As PCs get more and more attacks, bless does become more and more powerful.   That's what you are upset about Zard.   Well, now I understand.

 

Still, it is a random die that could give only a +1 to hit or save.

 

Maybe the solution is to have bless grant a bless die each round to the 3 PCs that are blessed.  Then, that PC can only spend it on one roll so the blessed PC has to decide which attack or save he or she can use it on.   This would make it more like the Bard's feature.

 

All you have to do is change the word "Whenever" in the spell description to "Once per round."   That would seriously nerf the spell.   

 

I can see your complaint, but I think it is a matter of personal preference rather than broken.

 

 

#124

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 18:40:52

Rhenny wrote:
(Reply to #124)

Bloodscythe

Zardnaar wrote:
#126

Zardnaar

Oct 13, 2014 21:00:24

Bloodscythe wrote:
#127

Dracones

Oct 13, 2014 21:27:16

Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #127)

2Chlorobutanal

Dracones wrote:
#129

Ramzour

Oct 14, 2014 1:45:16

Consider an attack that was going to miss, but hits because of Bless. You cannot say that 100% of that attack's damage was directly due to the Bless spell. All the Bless spell did was give you an extra +1 to +4 chance to hit, meaning that it increased the probability of you doing damage. If you want to calculate the damage boost received from Bless, you have to look at your expected damage output without Bless compared to your expected damage output with Bless. The difference is the amount of damage the Bless spell actually added to your party.

 

Why must you do it this way? Because the d20 roll offers a much larger probability range than the Bless d4. I can see how you would want to calculate it your way, but then you're taking ONE set of data and making a blanket statement about the system in general. That's not a fair analysis to make. You are ignoring most of the variables that contribute to the outcome of a combat, and therefore your conclusion is incorrect.

 

I mean think about the implications of what you're saying. You're saying that the bonus received from the Bless spell is dealing a lot more damage than it should (i.e. the spell is broken). Bless gives +1 to +4 to an attack roll. That's roughly equivalent to having Advantage. So by your logic all abilities that grant Advantage are also Broken. You know what Bless is? It's a +2 to attacks and saves. That's it. A +2 is simply not going to break the game. You have failed to prove anything other than having a +2 is good for you. Yeah, we know a bonus to hit is good. But that does not make anything broken.

#130

Zardnaar

Oct 14, 2014 3:22:41

Ramzour wrote:
#131

Ramzour

Oct 14, 2014 3:52:35

Spells that grant Advantage? Easy. Faerie Fire grants Advantage to all creatures in a 20ft cube that fail their save. So does Entangle. And Color Spray and Sleep make targets grant Advantage from being blinded or unconscious. Fog Cloud does it and doesn't require a save (thought it affects allies as well).

Spells that give a bonus to rolls? Easy. Guidance and Resistance are cantrips that grant +1d4 to checks/saves all day long. True Strike gives you Advantage on your next attack. 

 

Bless is gives a comparible bonus to these other low level spells, but you get bonus on TWO rolls instead (attacks and saves)....all at the cost of fewer targets, a daily spell, and Concentration.

 

Zard, no one is arguing that Bless is a bad spell. Everyone thinks it's a great spell! But it's not a broken spell. You have not proven this to be true at all. Having the Warcaster feat has nothing to do with it either. Please admit that your claim was ludicrous and unsubstantiated, and then we can move on.

#132

Mistwell

Oct 14, 2014 10:05:32

Zardnaar wrote:
#133

Mistwell

Oct 14, 2014 10:09:56

Zardnaar wrote:
#134

ChrisCarlson

Oct 14, 2014 10:16:02

Mistwell wrote:
#135

Zardnaar

Oct 14, 2014 10:53:30

Ramzour wrote:
#136

Zardnaar

Oct 14, 2014 10:56:28

Mistwell wrote:
#137

Zardnaar

Oct 14, 2014 11:03:13

Mistwell wrote:
#138

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Oct 14, 2014 11:04:50

Zardnaar wrote:
#139

Zardnaar

Oct 14, 2014 11:15:50

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#140

Mistwell

Oct 14, 2014 11:13:40

Zardnaar wrote:
#141

Zardnaar

Oct 14, 2014 11:20:05

Mistwell wrote:
#142

Mistwell

Oct 14, 2014 11:22:32

Zardnaar wrote:
#143

Dracones

Oct 14, 2014 11:37:23

Zardnaar wrote:
#144

ChrisCarlson

Oct 14, 2014 11:50:54

Dracones wrote:
#145

JerboaTheFeared

Oct 14, 2014 11:56:41

But Mistwell, doing it the other way 'feels right'. Meaning that it is easy to see the instant effect of Bless when it works. 

 

Bless's extra damage is pretty swingy. An attack will hit between 5% and 20% more often depending on that d4 roll. Using an EV of 12.5% as a reference, that means Bless works approximately 1 in every 8 attack rolls. Meaning the attack would miss without the bless. If Bless is cast on 3 party members each with 2 attacks, then that is 6 attacks per round. So you would expect to see damage from bless slightly less than once every full round of combat on average. Obviously fewer attacks would lengthen that time.

 

Of course that is 'in the long run'. In the short run variance takes over and there will be good streaks and dry streaks. In a good streak, it feels like Bless is always helping and the perception is 'ZOMG Bless is OP'. But if the player is having a dry streak ... say an entire evening without Bless mattering at all, which is statistically very possible ... then the player is more likely to feel 'meh' about it.

 

Zard's observations are very valid. But his sample size is small, and the thread doesn't have enough information to determine if his results are close to EV, or a statistical outlier. For instance, so far in Zard's records how many attacks have been made, and how many of those attacks have succeeded due to Bless?

 

The problem of selective filtering (naturally remembering the positive tests more clearly than the negative tests) make perception trickier. So saying "In a combat last night Bless did X damage" might not be completely meaningful. How long did the combat last? How many attacks were made with the Bless bonus? How many Bless successes added up to the X damage? etc.

 

So while your method might show a more accurate picture of Bless from a long term EV standpoint, that doesn't account for variance and its affect on player perception.

#146

Zardnaar

Oct 14, 2014 15:22:26

Dracones wrote:
(Reply to #146)

Dracones

You're mathing it wrong. You can't take the best situation(25% increase on legendary wielding 3 attack fighters) and apply it to everyone. Notice that rangers only got a 10% bump even when they attack 3 targets(a good DPR situation for them)? Rogues are going to get a lot less out of it due to how sneak attack works. And with casters it does nearly nothing to increase their damage.

 

#148

JerboaTheFeared

Oct 14, 2014 20:00:07

Yep. The math is way off. Let's take group A as the example.

 

The EV values you give assume 100% attack success. So you aren't using a DPR number, you are using damage per hit.

 

Here is how I think about it. Assuming your chance to hit is low enough that the full bonus to hit can be used without hitting the max, you have a +1 to +4. The EV for the bonus is 2.5. That translates to 12.5% of the time Bless causes a hit that would otherwise miss. Or in other words, 1 time in 8 Bless makes the difference between a hit and a miss.

 

Your group A has 5 attacks in a round.  If one of those attacks hits due to Bless, each of the 5 attacks has an equal chance of being the one. So the EV would be an average of the 5 attacks: 12.5 damage.

 

But that isn't a guaranteed 12.5 damage per round! That is only an EV of 12.5 damage on each attack that Bless enables.

 

The probability of Bless (a 1 in 8 chance) having absolutely no affect in 5 attacks is 49.8%. Only 50.2% of the time will you have one or more of the 5 attacks in a round helped by Bless. Some of that time will be only 1 hit, extremely rarely it would be 3 or more. The actual per round effectiveness of Bless is the sum of expected damage (EV) from each result (0 to all 5 hits) multiplied by the weighted frequency of that outcome.

(there are serious rounding errors below ... but I'm using it for simplicity ... it actually overstates the damage slightly)

0 hits = 49.8%

1 Hit = 36.6%

2 Hits = 10.4%

3 HIts = 1.49%

4 Hits = 0.1%

5 Hits = .003%

 

Multiplying it all out and adding it up results in an EV of 7.725 damage per round from Bless. So on average, expect Bless to contribute 7.725 damage per round. If you roll a 4 for Bless, that damage jumps to an average of 12.41 per round to give you an idea of the range.

 

That is for Group A, with their attacks and damage stats. The same calculation could be done for Group B as well and would result in slightly different results due to number of attacks and damage per attack.

 

(Reply to #142)

FrogReaver

Weird thing?  It's called making a control.  Control group should account for all bonsues other than bless if we are wanting to look at blesses DPR output.  Then we can compare what bless does to that which is what the man claimed he did.  It's not a weird thing at all...  it's a quite scientific thing to do....

 

Mistwell wrote:
(Reply to #146)

FrogReaver

You can't take your clerics damage out of the equation without overly inflating the numbers...  I also find it strange you are assuming a near optimal party setup for bless (all lvl 5 -10 characters that get 2 weapon attacks)

 

Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #148)

FrogReaver

JerboaTheFeared wrote:
#152

Zardnaar

Oct 15, 2014 1:59:57

The problem is you guys are assuming the average. Bless is swingy and 4s often turn misses into hits while a +1 can be wasted on an attack that hits anyway. More misses get turned into hits because of that.

 

 As I said in actual play conditions average damge is way over 7 per fight its more like 20 minimum. My clerfics actual attack is 1d6+5 at + 8 to hit so probably misses 40% of the time or so the poortunity cost is maybe 5 or 6 damage. Even 7 damage opver 3 rounds is still 21 damage+ the saving throw boosts so you are still outdamaging guinding boplt and the savebonus is a freebie. Note the avg damge is ignoring critial hits and other damage boosting effects so if anythihg it is still under rating the damage.

#153

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Oct 15, 2014 4:28:35

JerboaTheFeared wrote:
#154

Ramzour

Oct 15, 2014 4:38:28

Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #152)

JerboaTheFeared

Zardnaar wrote:
#156

ChrisCarlson

Oct 15, 2014 6:45:10

Zardnaar wrote:
#157

Timborama

Oct 15, 2014 7:43:13

Well Zard, it is swingy. Why? Because it's situational. Just like any other 1st level spell (or...any spell, really).

 

You don't need Identify as a spell if you have a Wizard with it in his spellbook. You don't need to know Burning Hands if you have 2 Rangers that have Rain of Arrows. Heck, you might not even need Haste if there aren't any melee folks in your party! But that Protection From Elements spell everyone said was useless sure came in handy on the day you knew the Fire Salamander Brothers were coming to town...

 

So is Bless REALLY good when you have 3 melee characters, each with superior magic weapons, all with 2-3 attacks per turn facing a superior CR foe for 5+ rounds? Oh heck yeah!

 

Is this the norm? Oh heck no! Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal...

#158

Zardnaar

Oct 15, 2014 10:09:32

As I said rather than theory craft some nmbers go out and try it in game if you have a cleric with the warcaster feat. 

(Reply to #158)

Timborama

Zardnaar wrote:
#160

Zardnaar

Oct 15, 2014 10:37:58

Timborama wrote: