Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zardnaar Jun 03, 2015 18:43:42	Back in october I posted a thread about bless being broken or at least overpowered. Well tone has everything to do with how one posts and that was almost 8 months ago now. Back then we had only been playing for a few weeks (early September) and I thought the bless + great weapon master/sharpshooter feats were the magic combo.   Fast forward a few months and others seem to be coming to the same conclusion.   http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?455618-5th-Edition-has-broken-Bounded-Accuracy    THere are other threads and what passes for char op boards these days usually mention those feats as being the most powerful in the game. I did miss the interaction with sharpshooter+hand crossbow as at the time we had a hunter ranger using a longbow+sharpshooter I saw the SS+CE in the next game we played though as one of my players figured the combo out.    I also missed the Great Weapon+Polearm Master combo or at least I saw it but missed the -10 part on the 1d4+str part of the feat.     Since then I have changed several things in my games.   1. Magical polearms and hand crossbowws are going to be very rare as not many people are likely to use them. Back to AD&D magical short swords, spears, dagger and longsword being the most common magical weapons.Right now for example the current magical items at level 4 in the party include a flame tongue short sword and a +2 dagger. A +2 shield also turned up in the last campaign which is on hold to August due to a missing player hence a new game which started at level 3 after a level1 TPK on HotDQ (again).   2. Rolled ability scores over the default array. This seems to result in higher scores and less pressure to play the most powerful builds. THe current Paladin in the party for example is rocking the heavy armor master feat+lucky feat with an 18 strength and a 16 charisma IIRC at level 4.Less pressure on stat bumps seems to recult in other feats being tried out.    3. More variety in my encounters. Most mobs, ;lless bigger creatures and more of a mix in encounter design roughly 1/3rd melee, 1/3rd ranged and 1/3rd a bit of both with mixed opponents or 1-2 rounds of ranged combat closing to melee. More traps, puzzles and things like that as well.    I do not mind twinked out magi items just don't hold your breath on getting one if you have a twinked out power combo build. My players are also moving away from DPR fighter builds towards classes with more versatility such as paladins and some gish builds with things like bladelocks, paladins, rangers, and Valor bards turning up over fighters.     Bless is still overpowering the other cleric buff spells and most of the other buff spells in the game it seems. Even in cleric less parties people still seem to want things like favoured souls or a cleric dip level to pick it up for Druids or whatever. The following eats are getting used more than Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master though.   Healer Resilient Warcaster.
#2 Macv12 Jun 03, 2015 19:37:41	Zardnaar wrote:
#3 Coredump00 Jun 04, 2015 2:45:49	Bless is definitely powerful.    But I think it gets a pass because it makes most of the party more powerful. It raises all of the PCs, not just one of them. So it is less likely to cause strife in the gameplay.
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Jun 04, 2015 3:15:48	Ridiculous overreaction and inability to reconcile one's own expectation with the new system's as a result of refusing to let go of now-flawed expectations established by prior editions.
#5 iserith Jun 04, 2015 6:12:20	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#6 FFSAA Jun 04, 2015 6:25:09	Zardnaar wrote:
#7 Dwarfslayer Jun 04, 2015 6:26:00	Honestly I don't really see the whole "Bless is OP" argument. I mean, yeah it's a good spell, but it also requires concentration, and a whole action to cast. Yeah, it's nice if you know a combat is beyond the next door, and you can use an action to prebuff, but casting it in combat isn't exactly a no brainer. Hell, in 5E most of the time you'll hit with your attack rolls anyway, so the big benefit here is mostly the buff to saving throws, which can be situational depending on what you're fighting. Bless is certainly a solid spell, but as some kind of crazy OP super-buff, it's certainly not. Personally I'd probably rather use my concentration slot on spirit guardians, hold person or silence.   If there's an OP save buff in the game, it's the paladin's aura of protection. They took divine grace, already a very powerful ability in 3rd edition and supercharged it to affect the entire party.   As for broken spells, Contagion and polymorph are the first two that come to mind. Both far more powerful than Bless. Honestly not even sure why bless gets talked about so much. I think it's mostly just because it's so visibly there because people are rolling d4s.
#8 mellored Jun 04, 2015 6:41:18	Bless does overshadow many other buffs, yes.   But that's more because most other buffs are weak.
#9 TenaciousJ Jun 04, 2015 6:52:40	My players figured out Twin Spell Greater Invisibility.  Bless does not seem so bad.
#10 FFSAA Jun 04, 2015 7:38:19	Dwarfslayer wrote:
#11 mellored Jun 04, 2015 7:51:54	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #6) AaronOfBarbaria	FFSAA wrote:
#13 ChrisCarlson Jun 04, 2015 8:27:08	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#14 FFSAA Jun 04, 2015 8:39:16	mellored wrote:
#15 Slyck314 Jun 04, 2015 8:40:03	My cleric would much rather maintain spirit guardians with his concentration then use it on bless.
#16 Istbor Jun 04, 2015 8:40:18	It still sounds like Zard is just tossing out magic items as per a table's dictation to me.  That seems like a lot of '+'magical gear at level 4 to me.  Maybe he is just playing in a high octane fantasy game compaired to the ones I have run/participated it.   I generally craft or cherry pick what items are in what hoards or locations so as to tailor them best to the party.  As such I really do not have a single generic + item. They all serve a specific purpose, have charges, or simply boost damage or a defense. I think the greatest item so far is a long sword that doubles as a key into a certain orders' installation, gives a 1d6 force dmg and 2 charges of truesight per long rest (used to find the key slots which are usually hidden).   I also like to build the more powerful items to scale with the character as they level up.   As for bless, I have certainly seen it used in dangerous fights but I would not call it overpowered and the tempest cleric who casts it is not using it on every battle, not even every challenging battle. Not sure if this thought that Bless is almost a must have is coming from the particular mind set of the players in your group Zard or maybe just your inner min/maxxer drooling.  In which case I feel for you, my inner min/maxxer does that often too.   My experiences thus far have not seen bless as such a crazy variable. My groups certainly have their fair share of optimizers.   Now totem Barbarian resistances... that is much more of a headache in my mind while DMing.  It can be fun trying to challenge the Barb while not crushing the rest of the party or playing the enemy forces like idiots.
#17 Dwarfslayer Jun 04, 2015 8:48:38	FFSAA wrote:
#18 mellored Jun 04, 2015 8:50:56	FFSAA wrote:
#19 FFSAA Jun 04, 2015 8:52:51	Slyck314 wrote:
#20 mellored Jun 04, 2015 9:00:24	Actually, let me math that out...  i'm curious.     4 raging barbaraians at level 5, with 18 Str and a maul.  (not reckless) 2d6+4+2 = 13 * 60% = 7.8 * 4 barbarains * 2 attacks = 62.4 damage per round.     3 raging barbarians with bless and a cleric casting sacred flame. 13 * 72.5% = 9.425 * 3 * 2 = 56.55 damage per round. +2d8 sacred flame * 60% = 5.4 = 61.95 damage per dound.     So... yea.  That seems pretty balanced.  The cleric brings some other capabilities, but is an action behind.
#21 FFSAA Jun 04, 2015 9:07:01	Dwarfslayer wrote:
(Reply to #6) CCS	FFSAA wrote:
#23 Dwarfslayer Jun 04, 2015 9:57:28	FFSAA wrote:
#24 mellored Jun 04, 2015 10:08:04	According to the DMG, you have...   14 Str = 50% to-hit 16 Str = 55% to-hit 18 Str = 60% to-hit 20 Str = 65% to-hit     With the proficencies cancling out.
(Reply to #23) sandvirm	Dwarfslayer wrote:
#26 sandvirm Jun 04, 2015 10:29:49	And for what my opinion is worth, Bless is a solid spell but I do not think it is broken.
#27 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jun 04, 2015 10:50:51	mellored wrote:
#28 Zardnaar Jun 04, 2015 11:13:49	Its also around 10 levels worth of progression in saves/to hit bonuses even with "just" a +2.5 bonus to hit. THere is a difference of +4 between level 1 and 20 and bless is over 50% of that and you get it on saves as well.
#29 ChrisCarlson Jun 04, 2015 11:26:56	Zardnaar wrote:
#30 Mistwell Jun 04, 2015 11:55:00	Oh come on, he mentions it what, once every 3 months? Hardly spamming, and he posted about it again because he got a lot more experience under his belt on the topic.  You will note his opinion is changing with that experience - maybe not on Bless, but on some other things.  I don't think he's being hysterical at all.
#31 Ashrym Jun 04, 2015 14:47:27	To be clear, 12.5% better accuracy equalling 12.5% more damage is the common misconception. The bonus damage is based on current accuracy instead of current damage. For example, 10% accuracy plus 12.5% is a much larger percentage of damage increase than 80% accuracy plus 12.5% where the first hits about twice as often but the latter is only about one extra hit out of 10 attacks. If compared, the former is 125% increase and the latter is a 15.625% increase. Given the 65% accuracy that I typically use bless is ~19% damage increase, or plus ~6.5 DPR typical of most of the melee damage calculations I have done as an off the top estimate. On 3 attackers about 20 more DPR is pretty good. That could be more accurate and there would definately be variance but it's a decent estimate for comparison. Bless gains free scaling as party damage naturally increases. I would be more likely to spend concentration on any one of a number of other spells, however. Competition for concentration is too steep.
#32 Zardnaar Jun 04, 2015 15:09:12	My last bless thread was October.
(Reply to #32) Jared711	I am playing a gish Favored soul and I would rather cast bless on the entire party than twin haste on two people.  It's cheaper, safer (no lost turn for two people) and has about the same overall benefit  (I use sharpshooter).    Bless as a first level spell should be +1 to hit and saves.     Bless should be a level 3-4 spell in it's current form.    Am I complaining, nope, I just cast bless :-)
#34 Rhenny Jun 04, 2015 20:24:02	My 4th level tempest cleric used bless for the 1st time last session.  The encounter lasted 3 rounds.   The bonus to die rolls only helped 1 of the 3 pcs who had the bless effect make 1 saving throw that he would have failed without it.  That's all it did.  It did not even grant 1 more hit because everyone was either rolling really well or really poorly. Thunderwave would have been much more helpful, but I liked the idea that my cleric was praying for his companions.
(Reply to #34) FrogReaver	Rhenny wrote:
(Reply to #34) Ashrym	Rhenny wrote:
#37 ORC_Cricket Jun 04, 2015 23:51:28	We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.   You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct   Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.   Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.     Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone.
#38 Delazar78 Jun 05, 2015 2:26:14	Been playing (well, DMing, mostly) since 5E came out. I currently DM due parties, one level 9, the other level 7.   Once we even had a party with 2 clerics (War and Tempest), and never seen the Bless spell cast ONCE.   They prefer to have their concentration for Spirit Guardians.   Just sharing my experience.
#39 danyc Jun 05, 2015 8:51:47	Bless is never going to be overpowered, because despite any observation bias or sense of it 'cancelling' out the GWM/Sharpshooter penalties, it's always that 12.5%, which is not in any way an overpowered number. Any time you make a mechanical choice on your character you're going to get some benefit, and many of them give you as much advantage as that or more.   As some posters have said, I'd go as far as to say it's dubiously worth casting a lot of the time, because it costs that action, and may only affect a small number of attacks if the combat is just a few rounds (which is very typical in 5e). Obviously it's also highly party and level dependent. It's a lot of benefit for a 20th level fighter making 20 attacks in 2 rounds (or a party with 3 martials all making multiple attacks in lower levels), but at level 1 (or even level 5) in say a classic cleric/fighter/rogue/wizard party, it's actually pretty meh. You might coordinate with the fighter to cast it in combats he's going to use Action Surge, but otherwise I tend to imagine the action being better spend on command/hold person (or even guiding bolt), or the slots better reserved for critical heals.   And no, I'm not forgetting that it benefits your saves too; however, I think if the enemy has any saving throw that you're highly concerned about, you're probably better off using both your slots, actions and most critically, concentration for more powerful, targetted anti-whatever tech (and potential cures when some people fail anyway). IE, if I'm going to get slammed by dragon breath, I'd much rather thave the appropriate protection from energy than a measly +1d4. Doubly true for Paladins, who are already benefiting saves off their passive aura, and then can tack on group-wide advantage or healing with an aura spell.   So yeah, I have trouble finding it broken, or even must-cast, in most scenarios outside of white room shooting galleries.
(Reply to #39) Jared711	No other spell gives a flat +2.5 to hit with all weapons, and it affects not just you but the whole party.  This is pushing the bounds on bounded accuracy like the shield spell.   The best you can get are spells that grant advantage.   Magic Weapon gives you a bonus to hit with a weapon but I would hope you can get a magic one from adventuring because of the concentration requirement.    If the bless provides one hit and one save in a fight, that is a win in my book.
#41 ChrisCarlson Jun 05, 2015 9:31:46	danyc wrote:
#42 ChrisCarlson Jun 05, 2015 9:33:43	Jared711 wrote:
#43 Zardnaar Jun 05, 2015 11:39:20	Spiritual Guardians isn;'t even all that good. It is easy for the NPCs to avoid its effects. Its great when the party is getting swarmed not so great in every ontehr situation and it doesn't deal that much damage. 3d8 save for half is nothing special at level 5 when you have fighters dealing 2d6+4 with two attacks and action surges etc. Spiritual Guardians is great some of the time bless is almost always great unless the PCs can't attack for any reason.     Bless in a level 3 slot gets 5 memebrs probably your whole party.Also you can't use SpiritualGuardian at all until level 5 and even after that you do not have that many spell slots to go around and you are comparing a level 1 spell to a level 3 spell in any event. When you can compare bless to a level 3 spell slot or even haste and you would still rather have the bless spell in most situations that might giive you an idea as to its power.     Bless also biuffs your concentration rolls as well so unless you have taken another feat like warcaster or resilient odds are your Spiritual Guirdians spell may nnot be up for long. Bless buffs itself in terms of concentration rolls. If you have a Paladin in the party they won't be casting to many level 3 spells either and they can also cast bless which at level 6 stacks with thier charisma bonus to saves.
#44 Jared711 Jun 05, 2015 11:44:59	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #43) Slyck314	Zardnaar wrote:
#46 ChrisCarlson Jun 05, 2015 12:38:26	Jared711 wrote:
#47 mellored Jun 05, 2015 13:25:34	Spirit guardian + sanctuary + dodge is fun.
(Reply to #46) LordTwig	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#49 Jared711 Jun 05, 2015 14:28:19	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #43) Ashrym	Zardnaar wrote:
#51 ChrisCarlson Jun 05, 2015 16:10:34	LordTwig wrote:
#52 ChrisCarlson Jun 05, 2015 16:21:05	Jared711 wrote:
#53 ChrisCarlson Jun 05, 2015 16:25:39	As for the rest... Jared711 wrote:
(Reply to #52) Jared711	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#55 ChrisCarlson Jun 05, 2015 16:52:19	Jared711 wrote:
#56 IronFistSolrane Jun 05, 2015 17:00:16	Bounded Accuacy was introduced as an idea with 5e to mean that stat modifiers wouldn't change much as a character gains levels, to increase the range at which challenges were viable.  When did people decide it means that the DC of a door or the defenses of a monster are static and not dependent on the PCs' level?  Because that idea is not new, it has been the default since there was a D&D.
(Reply to #54) Ashrym	Jared711 wrote:
#58 Mistwell Jun 05, 2015 19:13:41	Jared711 wrote:
(Reply to #58) Ashrym	Mistwell wrote:
#60 Jared711 Jun 05, 2015 19:36:12	Ashrym wrote:
#61 FFSAA Jun 05, 2015 19:41:00	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#62 FFSAA Jun 05, 2015 19:43:07	Ashrym wrote:
#63 Zardnaar Jun 05, 2015 20:11:04	Spirit guardians is good some of the time bless ia always good.
(Reply to #60) Ashrym	Jared711 wrote:
#65 guachi Jun 05, 2015 23:03:14	Mistwell wrote:
#66 Zardnaar Jun 05, 2015 23:48:32	With those feats it helps to have bless and advanatage. With the archery combat style though bless is enough. I have seen the follwing in games.   1. Ranger(hunter) with sharpshooter 2. Great Weapon Master Half Orc Champion with greataxe 3. Crossbow expert+sharpshooter    and several other PCs with GWM and greatswords generally. In every single case bless was the main mechanism used to offset the -5 part to hit with an exception for the CE+SS who had bless and a shield master fighter to help hiim out knocking stuff prone. Last party had a life and tempest cleric in it the tempest cleric took both resilient and warcaster for concentration rolls and often used bless on top of that as well, the land Druid in the current party splashed a cleric level to get bless along with discple of life.     I think this has been our 5th campaign+ several smaller games and 3 TPKs and only in one of them I think bless has not been used.   In the recent survey it is also seen that the smaller races are weaker. I wonder if that is becuase eople know how good things like great weapons are vs dex based where you can moe or less double your damage over dual wielding or dex based rapier or whatever.
#67 Psikerlord Jun 06, 2015 1:17:30	CCS wrote:
(Reply to #65) Ashrym	guachi wrote:
#69 kalil Jun 06, 2015 2:44:54	I agree with several posters here: Bless may be ahead on the power curve but the problems caused are related to the -5/+10 mechanic, not Bless itself.
#70 Dwarfslayer Jun 06, 2015 5:49:37	Ashrym wrote:
#71 ChrisCarlson Jun 06, 2015 7:18:30	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #65) FrogReaver	guachi wrote:
#73 danyc Jun 06, 2015 14:45:56	Jared711 wrote:
#74 FrogReaver Jun 06, 2015 16:41:52	...tactical implications of accuracy are only important if you have a pretty good idea how close to dead something is.     Mathematically it can be a good idea or bad idea depending on exact closeness to death.   As a quick example:  Dragon will breathe fire next turn.  I'm the last player to go before the dragon.   Dragon has 15 hp.   I do 6-13 damage at a 50% chance to hit. I can use sharpshooter and do 16-23 damage at a 25% chance to hit.   Which option provides a better chance of killing the dragon before he drops a breath attack on the party again?   Or we can just as easily turn the situation around by letting the dragon have 6 hp.  Then it's obvious which tactic is better.     All in all tactical implications of accuracy or no accuracy matter little in actual play scenarios where you can't be 100% certain of a monsters hp.   Then if you actually try the same examples with multiple attacks on a turn it gets almost exponentionally more complicated to determine the exact better tactic in that situation.   As a rule of thumb if your not absolutely certain about the probabilities that will result then going the higher DPR route is typically going to be the most educated choice you can make.
#75 Mistwell Jun 06, 2015 20:08:51	guachi wrote:
(Reply to #75) FrogReaver	Mistwell wrote:
#77 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Jun 07, 2015 16:50:33	I actually changed  Bless to last 5 rounds and casting it in a higher slot adds one round to that per slot used, not require concentration, and made it a 10ft radius centered on the cleric.