BMX bandit syndrome again?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

biomante

Mar 10, 2015 14:06:04

Hello all

 

Before anything, let me tell you that this is not a rant against 5E. I've been playing for a couple of months and I really like it; and I would really appreciate it if this thread stays rant/hate free.

 

There is something I really liked about 4E: power balance between the classes. Martial classes had a lot of options (powers), comparable to spellcasters. It was not something about power only, but variety; combat was not boring when you had options.

Now, with the arrival of 5E I worried a bit about power imbalance (lack of options) returning (aka BMX bandit syndrome).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

 

Mainly, this means that martial classes get overshadowed by spellcasters, specially at higher levels.

 

During my last gaming session (I play a Rogue), I felt like falling into a rut during the last battle: "I move 5 feet to adjust my position and attack with my rapier" over, and over again. It was just the most sensible thing to do, tactics-wise. And it got a little boring. The casters were using stuff like inflict wounds, cool cantrips, etc

 

Maybe it was just a one time thing, but I worry, what if this will continue through all levels? (Caster: "I use meteor swarm" , Rogue: "I prepare to sneak att... ok, I just clean the mess afterwards")

 

The characters in our party are almost at third level, maybe people that have played their characters for longer can share some thoughts about this issue.

 

PS: I know this is a game of imagination, we can describe every attack differently and avoid boredom. But at the end of the day, a melee attack works the same way no matter how you describe it. There are really not a lot of options. Unless you play a Battle Master Fighter and use maneuvers... should I multiclass my Rogue?

#2

Zardnaar

Mar 10, 2015 14:09:54

The martials are usually stronger than the spell casters at least Fighters and Paladins are in terms of contribution to the party. Fighter are just tough as guts, Paladins plug the hole of the crappy save system in 5E.

 

 Most broken PC I have seen was a level 13 fighter using cross bow expertise+sharpshooter. The wizard who was using simulacrum did not even come close. Half Orc champion was kinda nasty as well with a great axe. Wizard is kinda weak for most of the game, 2 clerics are decent, Druids are a bit meh excpet Moon Druid at lvl 2 maybe 20, Lore Bard is good, Warlocks and Sorcerer you need a bit of system mastery. 

#3

FFSAA

Mar 10, 2015 14:24:51

The system is a bit restrictive on options to compensate for weakensses, you can't for instance UMD an easily obtained fly scroll, you're pretty much going to want a caster to do it.  But from a power level, no one is really all that far off if the character isn't badly made.

 

Your "rut" you talk about isn't about power level though but interesting play.  There are less combat options for melee unless you're playing a battlemaster, and it can be pretty uninteresting to play such a character lacking the options casters have.  If that is what you want, play caster.

#4

EnglishLanguage

Mar 10, 2015 14:25:20

Casters are mostly better than martials, but in 5e's defense, it's nowhere near as bad or blatant as it was in 3.PF.

#5

ChrisCarlson

Mar 10, 2015 14:33:46

...it's like flypaper...

#6

Farmer42

Mar 10, 2015 14:41:05

I would talk to your DM and see if you can get more dynamic terrain.  Crates, boxes, tables, etc.  Things you can move around and interact with instead of "I run up and stab him."  While other players can, too, you're going to have an advantage since you, in theory, have one of the best Dex scores in the party.  Also, you can use the terrain to try and get advantage where you normally wouldn't.  Personally, if a player told me he was going to climb a table and jump down and stab a dude on the other side, I'd give the player advantage.  *I* wouldn't expect someone to do that in a fight.  A fight never needs to be round after round of swinging your sword to hit someone.

#7

iserith

Mar 10, 2015 15:01:08

When the most "sensible" thing to do tactics-wise is boring, then do something less sensible and not boring (but still effective).

 

The game mechanics aren't a substitute for creativity and imagination. They just help resolve the uncertainty your creativity and imagination brings to the table.

#8

mellored

Mar 10, 2015 15:18:20

there's a big difference between boring and effective.
the bmx bandit had plenty of tricks and the angle summoner could only do 1 thing.

#9

Shasarak

Mar 10, 2015 15:34:16

BMX Bandit was great.

#10

Zardnaar

Mar 10, 2015 16:38:48

I vaguely remember an 80's movie called BMX bandits from when I was a kid. Can't remember what it was about. 

#11

Mephi1234

Mar 10, 2015 16:55:49

Part of the issue might be the playstyle of the group as well.    I would take a step back, and analyze the way you are approaching combat in the first place.   As a rogue, you're the scout.   Angle for finding sneak attacks before combat.   Look around for advantage situations.   Use your Cunning Action to cross the field when combat starts to start attacking the enemies from behind.    Find ways to angle for starting off with surprise rounds.     Really dig deep into the mind of the rogue, and play with things that way.    If you play the rogue like a fighter, that could cause some dissatisfaction with the class. 

 

#12

LordTwig

Mar 10, 2015 17:13:40

I keep hearing people complain about the lack of options for melee characters, but you have to understand that there are a lot of people that like the way they play. They like moving their character around, rolling attacks and doing damage. They don't want to worry about whether they should spend their superiority dice now or save it for later. They worry they might waste it, then the stress that they may need it later, then they are not having fun.

 

Personally I fall somewhere in the middle. I like playing Wizard and such with spell slot resources, but I prefer Champion Fighters over Battlemaster Fighters because when I play a Fighter, I just want to hit things. Neither is right or wrong, just different ways of enjoying the game.

(Reply to #10)

Reius

Zardnaar wrote:
#14

Vahnyu

Mar 10, 2015 18:50:02

LordTwig wrote:
#15

Noon

Mar 10, 2015 19:52:30

It's about this time I'd check if you can actually die in the game.

 

That tends to be what makes things actually boring. But people think the grass is greener on the other players character, when maybe the magic user is just as bored with cantrips.

#16

Ahglock

Mar 10, 2015 19:56:49

Personally I never found 4e to be that balanced. Better than 3e yes but in my experience strikers were by far the most pivotal and important role. 

 

Still I think the issue some have is the lack of martial effects that turn how the battlefield is going like a slow spell might change things. So yeah while they may be balanced martial effects are fairly limited. Personally I'm okay with this depending on how people define martial. 

 

I disliked the concept some had of 4e that made martial a mundane effect. That a fighter knocked over a 4 ton object through training but he's just a ordinary human or the archer firing 200 arrows in 6 seconds is just training. 

 

Game rule wise I have no issue with a martial character doing these things, but fluff wise I want it defined as Ki, magic, inhuman monster power etc. which is why I kind of like things like the arcane trickster as a martial like option. I just with a Ki or mystic martial training was there as well do it wasn't spells and felt more purely martial. 

#17

Beldak_Serpenthelm

Mar 10, 2015 20:24:25

Ahglock wrote:
#18

Tony_Vargas

Mar 10, 2015 20:30:21

biomante wrote:
#19

Zardnaar

Mar 10, 2015 20:34:09

Tony_Vargas wrote:
#20

FFSAA

Mar 10, 2015 21:48:38

Zardnaar wrote:
#21

abs1nth

Mar 11, 2015 5:00:30

I don't feel like melee is boring. You have quite a lot of options:Grapple, Shove, Disarm, Climb on a larger creature, help someone, as a rogue there may be situations where you'd want  to disengage with the cunning action and switch to ranged. And then if your DM is good with setting up the scenarios and you are imaginative, you have opportunities to improvise by using the environment to your advantage.

#22

arderkrag

Mar 11, 2015 6:11:08 		Melee is fun for me. Spells? Eh. I have one dedicated spellcaster so far out of about five characters.
#23

BRJN

Mar 11, 2015 14:34:46

EnglishLanguage wrote:
#24

Shasarak

Mar 11, 2015 14:49:27

WotC has said that the Human Fighter is by far the most popular class combo so it proves that you do not need to give every class spells for them to be popular.

#25

Jenks

Mar 11, 2015 14:53:51

I think the issue is a little blown out of proportion as it ALL depends on the person.

 

Some folks really like the single action fighter thing. A guy in my sat. gaming group pretty much only plays rangers and fighters, and loves it. In fact, he dislikes spellcasters because there's too much to worry about. 

 

Some folks like the choices that spellcasters contain. I am one of those folks, and I bet you a good portion of people who complain on the subject are as well.

 

The D&D designers know this as well, hence why we got the Champion and the other two, more complicated, subclasses of fighter. Some people really do just like that simple kind of class, and it would be just as wrong to deprive them of it so the people who like choices can be happy.

 

A couple of other things to remember

  • At early levels casters are pretty much just using an attack over and over again, they just get to give it a fancy name like "Firebolt".
  • Next time try the arcane trickster. They get a bit more flair and variety than the other two rogue subclasses.
#26

Zardnaar

Mar 11, 2015 16:08:33

FFSAA wrote:
#27

ORC_Cricket

Mar 11, 2015 18:20:48

We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.

 

You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct

 

Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

 

Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.  

 

Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone. 

(Reply to #21)

OGRE1984

abs1nth wrote:
#29

Brock_Landers

Mar 15, 2015 2:23:42

Ahglock wrote: