RAW and certainly RAI they cannot (as confirmed by a tweet by none other than Jeremy Crawford), yet there is a debate about this that's overshadowing another otherwise interesting thread. I am not posting here to debate this personally, but to give those who feel like debating it an outlet to do so in hopes that the other thread stays open and on topic.
lets have a look at the rules.
from multi class section:
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individualy, as if you where a single classed member of that class.
fromthe wizard class:
when you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higer you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level you spell slots.
so this would mean that the wizard 1 cleric 19 would be treated as a level 1 wizard form detemining what spell slots he has when it comes to what spells he can copy into his book.
and a level 1 wizard has only 1st level spell slots, so could not copy Meteor swarm into his spell book.
and you ca only prepare spells that you have in your spellbook.
edwin_su wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
"When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higer you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level you spell slots."
What that says is that if a 5 level wizard finds a 3rd level spell he can add it to his spellbook because he can cast 3rd level spells
If the 5 level wizard found a 4th level spell he would not unable to understand it and therefore add it to his book until he gained a 4th level slot at level 7
You use the class levels to know/learn the spells you can use and you use the Mutliclass spell table for the slots you have available ...
The RAW is vague as if uses "spell slots" for spells you can learn without clarifying "wizard spell slots".
The 19/1 character would have to find the spell. But a 18/2 could choose to learn it upon taking their second wizard level.
But 5e is all about rulings no rules, so it's up to your DM. Worst case, you're giving up automatic divine intervention for the ability to summon meteors two or three times before retirement.
The_Jester wrote:
You all wrong! :P
But no seriously, you could copy a high level wizard spell into your spellbook RAW. HOWEVER, Multiclass rules state that when you *prepare* spells, you treat it as if you were only a wizard of your class' level.
Thus you have it in your spellbook, but you can't prepare it.
Yunru wrote:
Thunaer wrote:
The class feature that allows you to copy spells into your book isn't effected by the multiclass rules because the multiclass rules don't say they effect it.
The preperation of such a spell, however, is effected by the multiclass spells creating a sort of "spell limbo", where you can have it but not prep it.
kalil wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Ah but there's the bit that makes it all limbo-y. You *can* cast those spells. If you could prepare them. You can't prepare them but you can cast them, therefore you can copy them. If you get what I mean.
Yunru wrote:
That's true, but the afformented Wizard 1|Cleric 19 *does* have a slot for it. They still can't prepare it, because when preparing they're not considered to, but for other things relating to spell slot they do.
The wierdest part is you can copy them, but not prepare or *know* them. So... I guess you've meaningless scrible in your spellbook? (To you, from a RP perspective)
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Listen, the multiclass rules are quite specific as to when they apply.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
I think Yunru has the right of it. It doesnt matter for 9th level spells, but can certainly matter for mid-level spells if you go with an even level spread.
OP - no. You have the full table of slots because you're 20th, but you don't have access to the spell levels because you're only 1st.
You could cast a 9th-level magic missile or flame strike, but not a 9th-level meteor swarm.
Grifford wrote:
Irithil wrote:
Learning a Spell Higher Than 1st Level prevent you from learning spells for which you don't have spell slots, Copying a Spell into Your Spellbook doesn't limit you to add it to your spellbook and Preparing and Casting Spells says can prepare a spell from your spellbook, which could be one you haven't even learned.
But the thing is that Multiclassing say you determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class, and Preparing and Casting Spells say the spells you prepare must be of a level for which you have spell slots, which you don't have as a single-classed 1st level wizard when you are Wizard 1/Cleric 19.
What you could do RAW is cast a spell as a ritual though, since you are the only class that can cast it straight from your spellbook without having to prepare ti, so a Wizard 1/Claric 19 could cast Dwamij's Instant Summon as a ritual for exemple but that clearly not the intent and no sane DM would let this fly at their table!
FFSAA wrote:
kalil wrote:
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level for which you have spell slots and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it"
This is a Wizard ability and therefore subject to it's rules. You have to KNOW the spell t o copy it and since the wizard cannot KNOW a spell it foes not have a slot for you cannot copy it
- Posts direct quote from rules that makes no reference to knowing something.
- Says that means you have to know it.
I sense flaws in your logic.
Yunru wrote:
Copying a spell isn't linked to learning a spell. At all. They're seperate class features. And again, the Multiclass rules only apply when they say they apply. In this case the only ones that apply are how many spell slots you get. The one for Learning and Preparing Spells doesn't apply because you're not learning or preparing a spell.
Yunru wrote:
And you do, from the Multiclass Spell slot table, you've at least 1 of each level.
Again, here is an exact quote of all the relevent rules:
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
Plaguescarred wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I'm out
i am sure you as a Dm will run it this way and hopefully as a player you can fin a Dm that will agree with you.
Oh good, you decided to back down in the face of my clearly defined, rules-backed logic.
And yes, I as DM would have no problem with a Wizard 1|Cleric 19 copying Meteor Swarm into his spellbook. Because (s)he still can't use it so all (s)he's done is waste money.
What's this debate about? You cannot prepare it. So what if you can copy it, and so what if you could cast it if you had it prepared, you cannot prepare it so the rest is moot.
I just wanted to feel special at having proved both sides of a(n) debate/argument wrong 
:P
Yunru wrote:
Can they cast it from a scroll?
Kalani wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
"If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells."
I sometimes wonder if people even read the rules before they comment.
Mistwell wrote:
No you miss my point. Can they cast it from a scroll without the check?
1) If the spell written on the scroll appears on your class’s spell list - it does
2) and the spell’s level is one that you can normally cast - you can normally cast it, you just cannot normally prepare it. So...yes?
3) you cast the spell successfully.
Mistwell wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Just a heads up, I edited my previous post after you quoted it.
The rules for scroll activation as presented in the DM basic guide are open to such a ludacric interpretation hense the debate. I personally do not agree that an untrained fighter, who has never cast a spell in his life, would have even a 1% chance of casting a 9th level spell via a scroll, regardless of what their Intelligence score is.
It does not stop the fact that the wording of the scroll activation rules allow such an interpretation. In fact, said fighter would have a 10% chance of success with a 10 Intelligence, and no proficiency bonus (requiring a 19 or 20 to succeed). I highly doubt anyone would be willing to take such a risk with such a valuable scroll however, unless it was a dire emergency.
Especially once you consider that the Spell DC for for a fighters meteor swarm would be pittiful.... DC 8 + intelligence modifier (with no proficiency bonus).... Maybe thats ok though. By the time a wizard is casting 9th level spells, they would likely have a +4 or +5 Intelligence modifier, and a +6 proficiency bonus (DC 20-21). This compared to the poor fighter, whose spell DC is no greater than 12 or 13 (and possibly as low as 9).
On second thoughts, I say let them try.... With a 10% chance of activating the spell to begin with, and a spell DC so low that even a CR1 creature has a high chance of saving, I don't really see what the problem is.
With that being said, a character with the Ritual Caster feat can cast ritual spells of up to 9th level (assuming such a spell exists, which I have yet to verify). The feat has no ability score, or skill requirements either, meaning an 8 Intelligence Fighter could be potentially casting 9th level wizard rituals from their ritual book.
Orethalion wrote:
Multiclassing says you treat each class individually. It says nothing about ignoring your other classes, just that you "determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually".
For example: Wizard 1 / Bard 18
- You're a level 1 wizard. But you have 20 Int (from bard levels) which no level 1 wizard could ever have, and you have level 9 spell slots as well.
- As a level 1 wizard with those stats and spell slots, you know 6 1st level wizard spells, plus any you have added to your book, and you can prepare 6 wizard spells "of any level for which you have spell slots" (which is every level up to 9).
- There's the wizard stuff done. Now we figure out what you get from your bard levels.
- As a bard 18, you know 22 bard spells, plus some from magical secrets, and you don't need to prepare them.
- And there's the bard done. You need to keep the spells from each of your individual classes in separate lists so that you can determine which spells they can cast individually. Conversely, you don't determine your spell slots individually, but you total your caster levels instead.
- A while later you get to level 20 and put that level into wizard. "Add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the wizard table." So you get 2 new spells, but you have to use the wizard table (which you are only up to level 2 on) to determine the level of your highest spell slot so you know what level the spells can be. In this case, the spells must be level 1.
- A bit later as you're exploring the lowest level of the abyss, you find a meteor swarm scroll. The sidebar for adding such a spell to your book says "you can add it to your book if it is of a level for which you have spell slots ...". Notice the absence of the above text I bolded. Unlike learning a spell from a level gain, you do not use the wizard table, you use your actual spell slots, which lets you add the spell to your book. As mentioned above, you can prepare wizard spells "of any level for which you have spell slots", so again you use your actual spell slots instead of looking up your wizard level on the wizard table, so you can prepare the spell.
If instead, the meaning of "for each class individually" was that you ignore your other classes, since there is nothing telling you which parts of a class you have to ignore, you would have to ignore those classes entirely. So you don't get the benefit of their caster levels for your spell slots, and you also don't get the benefit of any ability score increases you received from levels in other classes. There is no arguing around this; the rules don't differentiate so if you think that "individually" means you ignore the other classes, you have to ignore everything you get from those classes.
- So now the guy in the above example with 20 Int needs to remember that he got +4 Int from bard levels and he can only prepare 4 wizard spells instead of 6.
- That means you can have two characters with identical ability scores, levels and features, but they could have different numbers of spells prepared.
- Nothing in the rules gives any indication that you need to record which class you get each stat boost from.
- Luckily you don't have to. Nothing says you ignore your other classes, so you don't ignore them. You determine spell slots by combining your caster levels and you determine spells known and prepared for each class individually, with the full benefits of your spell slots and ability scores wherever they apply.
Aaand here's where your entire argument falls apart. The part you can't have missed so must have overlooked intentionally.
You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
Orethalion wrote:
This is why playing D&D with barristers can by annoying.
Mistwell wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
There's no ambiguity, really - the intent is quite straightforward and easy to interpret. The spells you can prepare and cast are based on each of your classes inside a vacuum, and this list does not in any way interact with the multiclass rules or character level mechanics.
So, depending on how your multiclass structure is (say a 10/10 wiz/cle), it's possible to end up with spell slots available for spell levels you can't learn or prepare, in which case the only use for those slots is to cast stronger versions of lower level spells. That's actually kind of cool, really, and I'd be curious how effective you'd end up being.
Einlanzer wrote:
So... what we've already established? Nice reading skills there :P
Sigh.......
While I was the one who pointed out the silly yet valid interpretation of the scroll activation rules in this thread, I also thought I made it abundantly clear I was opposed to such an interpretation.
Yes it is a valid interpretation of the RAW, but it doesn't take a genius to realise that such an interpretation is definately not how the rules were intended, and that the idea of a 1st level Fighter with a 10 Intelligence having any chance of casting meteor swarm (even though its only a 10% chance) is completely absurd.
I state for the record: My position in that particular debate is that the RAW is simply a badly worded If / Then clause, and that I expect it to be fixed before the DMG is released.
However, can I also ask that we not derail this thread in debating the scroll activation rules? There is already a thread debating this issue exclusively. Might I suggest people interested in the debate take their arguments there.
Link below.
Orethalion wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
In this edition, you can find a spell book with several high level spells already in it . But you still need to spend the time to copy them into your own spellbook . The copy process makes it clear that you must you practice it as well. I have to wonder how you can practice a spell you can't prepare. It also makes it clear that the the cost and time required is for mastering the spell. You certainly can't master a spell that you can't prepare.
Yunru wrote:
TheLyons wrote:
QuietNinja wrote:
Kalani wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
On the scroll casting issue, it does seem a little easy to cast a scroll that you are required to make an Intelligence (Arcana) check for. A 9th level scroll is only a 19, right? That is not even a hard DC on the typical difficulty class chart. I plan to make it 10 + double the spell's level. This makes 9th level scrolls between "very hard" and "nearly impossible". A super smart fighter (INT 20) that is untrained in Arcana only has a chance at 7th level spells then.
masterfat78 wrote:
Kalani wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
QuietNinja wrote:
Unbelievable.
It is the clear intent of the rules that you get the higher slots but not the higher spell casting ability. Any player pulling this crap in my game would be warned only once then booted. This is totally ridiculous.
Emerikol. wrote:
Doesn't the example in the multiclassing section clearly explain how it works?
DemoMonkey wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Einlanzer wrote: